Touring - Can ya'll explain something to me?

Hi :) First of all, let me just say that I'm NOT looking to start WW III or anything of that nature. I am genuinely interested to know why I keep hearing that hybrids are not suited for touring. It just seems so counter-intuitive. Hybrids are just great for around-town commuting - their tires don't scoff at a wee bit of dirt road, you can outfit them with racks, panniers, etc., and they are comfortable. What more could a person ask for in a touring bike?

Like I said, I am curious and very interested in your thoughts. Plus, I'll tell you a little secret... I have always (for as long as I can remember) harbored a secret dream of pedaling across a state line or two (or three!). A bike tour just seems like more fun than a person is legally allowed to have.

Oh, and I'm not sure if this matters or not but I'm not a camping type of girl. Nope... not for me at all! At least for my first tour, I'd prefer not to have haul my own stuff. I think those are called 'credit card' tours, yes?

Biggest problem I have with Hybrids are the lack of proper seats for long distance riding and the lack of drop handle bars.

I typically see "comfort" saddles on these things that I doubt are all that comfortable after 50 miles.

I have flat bars on one of my bikes, that I did in fact tour with... biggest mistake I could have made... I had numb hands 1/2 day every day with those. They are great for visibility and commuting, but out on a long trail, you need to be able to move your hands about to relieve pressure.

How about weight? Are there any hybrids that are fairly light... no point starting a long tour with 20 extra pounds to push... you'll want to carry a light sleeping bag and tent, instead.

Hi :) First of all, let me just say that I'm NOT looking to start WW III or anything of that nature. I am genuinely interested to know why I keep hearing that hybrids are not suited for touring. It just seems so counter-intuitive. Hybrids are just great for around-town commuting - their tires don't scoff at a wee bit of dirt road, you can outfit them with racks, panniers, etc., and they are comfortable. What more could a person ask for in a touring bike?

Like I said, I am curious and very interested in your thoughts. Plus, I'll tell you a little secret... I have always (for as long as I can remember) harbored a secret dream of pedaling across a state line or two (or three!). A bike tour just seems like more fun than a person is legally allowed to have.

Oh, and I'm not sure if this matters or not but I'm not a camping type of girl. Nope... not for me at all! At least for my first tour, I'd prefer not to have haul my own stuff. I think those are called 'credit card' tours, yes?

I think that the main design difference is that touring bikes have longer distance between where the front and rear wheels touch the ground. Track bikes have the shortest. Hybrids are in between. This matters because over long distances it is easier to control a loaded touring bike since it has a longer "wheelbase". Track bikes are very quick to respond. I wouldn't worry much about the "wheelbase" if you are comfortable with your hybrid.

I think that the main design difference is that touring bikes have longer distance between where the front and rear wheels touch the ground. Track bikes have the shortest. Hybrids are in between. This matters because over long distances it is easier to control a loaded touring bike since it has a longer "wheelbase". Track bikes are very quick to respond. I wouldn't worry much about the "wheelbase" if you are comfortable with your hybrid.

Many hybrids have a wheelbase and chainstay length that is comparable to many touring bikes. For example, My 2005 Fuji World (58cm) has roughly a 1060 wheelbase and 440 chainstay. My 2004 Trek 7200FX (L) has a 1059 wheelbase and 445 chainstay. The 2006 Trek 520 (L) has a 1052 wheelbase and 450 chainstay. My 7200FX also has plenty of clearance for fenders and mounts for front and rear racks.

Saddles can be replaced, flat bars can be replaced or have bar ends installed for more hand positions. But, most hybrids are aluminum frames, while many of us touring types prefer steel. Lower end hybrids like mine obviously have cheaper components than higher end touring bikes, but the higher end hybrids seem speced well. Gearing is nearly identical, though the Fuji has a 9sp cassette and the Trek 8. Weight? No doubt my Fuji is lighter than my Trek, but I think it's a wash when comparing to say a Trek 520, Fuji Touring etc. which weigh in over 25lbs.

I'm really interested to hear other comments on this!

My Kona Dew Deluxe hybrid has 72.5 degree head and seat tube angles, 44 cm chain stays, and is absolutely fine for touring. Fitted with Nitto drop bars (or moustache bars) the bike is as good as any dedicated touring bike. The original equipment WTB seat is fine for distance too! The bike is not a lightweight (only because of its disc brakes), but is a fine tourist!

You can use any bike for touring. A hybrid intends not to be a touring bike. It is a hibrid of mountain bike and road bike, not even a hybrid of a touring bike. But if you can get your gear on it, you can tour it, and that applies to a hybrid too. A small bracket will hold the rack back so that you don't get heel contact with the paniers, if that is even a problem.

Think about riding several 10 hours a days, into the wind, when you decide on the kind of riding position you want to tour in.

I have toured on a Trek 790 Hybrid since the early 90's. I towed a BOB sometimes and used panniers sometimes. I found the Hybrid to be a very decent bike for touring. I might add that I have a bad back and have to use flat bars. Sure the wind can be an issue but I just deal with it. I have upgraded the components and still use this bike to tour on sometimes. I now ride a Cannondale T2000 and have changed it to flat bars. My personal feeling is that if you like the way a Hybrid rides, then use it to tour.

I typically see "comfort" saddles on these things that I doubt are all that comfortable after 50 miles.


May I ask why? (This is one of those weird 'counter-intuitive things I was referring to.)

Very interesting comments from all of you! Thanks for sharing :)

[QUOTE=slagjumper]I think that the main design difference is that touring bikes have longer distance between where the front and rear wheels touch the ground. Track bikes have the shortest. Hybrids are in between. This matters because over long distances it is easier to control a loaded touring bike since it has a longer "wheelbase". Track bikes are very quick to respond. I wouldn't worry much about the "wheelbase" if you are comfortable with your hybrid. TOUR ON A MOUNTAIN BIKE AND STAY IN MOTELS. TALK TO STRANGERS, AND ENJOY LIFE. GO WHERE YOU WANNA GO AND DO WHAT YOU WANNA DO. AND ALL YOU NEED IS THE MEMORIES YOU KEEP. FOR SOME REASON I THINK IT'S FUN TO CARRY CASH. IT MAKES YOU FEEL MORE FREE.

I've done a fair amount of loaded touring, I think a hybrid could work. I rented what is considered a touring bike in England, and it was built somewhat along the lines of a mountain bike cloned with a hybrid. It could really go anywhere--although not in a big hurry, but so what? Here's an example:

http://www.sjscycles.com/thornwebsite/raventour.html

PS--Note the Brooks saddle.

"Comfort saddles uncomfortable on long rides" - May I ask why?...

The "conventional wisdom" is that saddles with padding (i.e. "comfort" saddles) will be less comfortable on long rides than harder saddles, that support the sit bones more directly. Using this theory, you'd be more comfortable sitting all day on a church pew than in a Lazy Boy recliner.

I've tried Brooks leather saddles, Selle saddles, WTB saddles, Fizik saddles, and Specialized saddles so far (and more than one model of each!). For my money, a padded "comfort" saddle is the way to go for any ride of over an hour. My preference may have something to do with the fact that I weigh 260# right now, and that "force over area" on the sit bones determines long distance comfort. If my theory is correct, I'll be able to get comfortable on a wider variety of saddles as I lose weight. Time will tell...

So far as the conventional wisdom on saddles goes, try for yourself (without preconceptions) and see what works for you! Happy riding!

Most of the tourists I meet during my expeditions are either riding hybrids or mountain bikes. Only occasionally do I encounter people on a "classic" touring bike with drop bars, all steel frames, etc.

You really can ride any bike you find comfortable. Personally, I would find flat bars hard to tolerate because I need postural variety to be happy. But that's me.

I learn a little more about what my body needs with each tour. Whether it's the ideal seat position, what and how to pack, what and when to eat, how to make minor adjustments and repairs... my knowledge of what makes for a pleasant trip increases with each voyage. Just take the tour you plan on the bike you have. If you struggle to make it up steep hills, you will know that you can change the gearing for your next tour. If your hands don't get sore or numb on flat bars, then consider them OK!

Hi :)
Oh, and I'm not sure if this matters or not but I'm not a camping type of girl. Nope... not for me at all! At least for my first tour, I'd prefer not to have haul my own stuff. I think those are called 'credit card' tours, yes?

Ellen: I am preparing for such a credit card tour, across the USA, in April 2006.
I have started many threads on this forum to research this issue.

I own two suitable bikes. Trek Hybrid 7700 and a Cannondale R2000 suitable for racing. The big difference is weight. The Hybrid with all that is needed will weigh in at over 30 lb. (with 2 water bottles)
My Hybrid was fitted with 700 x 25, 120 PSI tires and aero bars. On the flats it is great. I have done 22 miles in one hour. (my PR, no wind) In the hills or mountains, forget it. You cant keep up with a light road bike.

The Cannondale had to be modified with gears suitable for big mountains, aero bars and sturdier wheels.
Now this bike is great and I can consistently do 20 MPH on various terrain. (it is about 20 lb)

I assume that you want to go with a tour or group and I assume that you want to be able to keep up with the average biker in that group.

I recently read on Sheldon's site, before the term "mountain bike" was coined in the late 1980's, you bought a bike with either "road" or "touring" grouppo! Only since MTBs have come in to vogue have we seen the term (as applied to components) largely dropped. I use MTB derailleurs on my touring bike to accomodate the wider range of gearing (larger chain capacity).

Lots of spill-over. Though as others have summed up well here, you might not enjoy touring on a track bike and a long wheelbase/long chainstay touring specific bike wouldn't serve you well on on a track. :)

I saw a fellow ride across Canada on a unicycle. I don't know if it was a "touring" unicycle though...

Biggest problem I have with Hybrids are the lack of proper seats for long distance riding and the lack of drop handle bars.

I typically see "comfort" saddles on these things that I doubt are all that comfortable after 50 miles.

I have flat bars on one of my bikes, that I did in fact tour with... biggest mistake I could have made... I had numb hands 1/2 day every day with those. They are great for visibility and commuting, but out on a long trail, you need to be able to move your hands about to relieve pressure.

How about weight? Are there any hybrids that are fairly light... no point starting a long tour with 20 extra pounds to push... you'll want to carry a light sleeping bag and tent, instead.

I do frequent back to back centuries on my Hybrid. To address above concerns, I installed Brooks Champion Flyer sprung and aged saddle. It works great for me. Caution! Proper bike fitting was very critical so that my weight is balanced between saddle, hands and legs.
I also use aero bars a lot on these long trips against wind. Caution! They are less safe since your hands are away from brakes. I gain at least one mile per hour and conserve energy. My aero bars are set same elevation as the saddle for comfort.

You can ride almost anything for long distances. Here's a link to the guy who ( I think) holds the transamerica record on a high wheeler:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Garden/4934/bikeamerica.htm

We used to run together everyday at lunch many years ago. (Well, we both ran out of the same location at the same time every day. We weren't actually running buddies, and only casual acquaintances) That link is pretty old. I have seen some recent links (urls) to a bicycle (high wheeler) museum he now runs in Denver. I'll post them if I can find them again.

Touring bikes typically have heavier, stronger tubing than hybrids to carry heavy loads to help avoid shimmy, lower bottom brackets, longer chainstays and often have more relaxed head tube angles for loaded stability.
But if you use a trailer, these factors might not be as important.

oops, i forgot, if you're credit card touring you might like the hybrid better. my expedition touring bike with thick tubing (1.0/.7/1.0) has a crummy ride when unloaded, harsh and bumpy. but the minute i throw on 50 lbs of groceries then the frame will start to flex and instantly the bike is smoother and comfortable. and i've never had shimmy problems with it.

My hybrid is the perfect choice for my touring for the simple reason that I do not have any options. I tour with what I have. Maybe some day I will have a tailor-made bike for all individual purposes, commuting, light touring, touring, touring with a kayak in trailer, running errands in winter and whatnot. But I'm not there yet, so I just use either of my hybrids. Works well for me.

--J

You can ride almost anything for long distances. Here's a link to the guy who ( I think) holds the transamerica record on a high wheeler:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Garden/4934/bikeamerica.htm

We used to run together everyday at lunch many years ago. (Well, we both ran out of the same location at the same time every day. We weren't actually running buddies, and only casual acquaintances) That link is pretty old. I have seen some recent links (urls) to a bicycle (high wheeler) museum he now runs in Denver. I'll post them if I can find them again.

Gee whiz! And I was worried about my modern hybrid?! LOL

Hand and wrist comfort is what decides it for me. I've had minor issues with both wrists at different times. I don't want to develop major issues. My wrists are most comfortable riding the hoods or in the lower drops. But I also have in-line brake levers so I can ride the flat tops as well. There are actually 4 or 5 very different hand positions I use on drop bars. And being able to reach out onto the hoods or go low on the drops also helps stretch my back, AND it shifts weight off my butt. So I get primary benefit for my wrists and secondary benefit for back and arse. I'm pretty sure an upright comfort position and/or flat bars would drive me nuts after a couple of hours.

oops, i forgot, if you're credit card touring you might like the hybrid better. my expedition touring bike with thick tubing (1.0/.7/1.0) has a crummy ride when unloaded, harsh and bumpy. but the minute i throw on 50 lbs of groceries then the frame will start to flex and instantly the bike is smoother and comfortable. and i've never had shimmy problems with it.

A Cannondale I presume? ;-)

May I ask why? (This is one of those weird 'counter-intuitive things I was referring to.)

Very interesting comments from all of you! Thanks for sharing :)

Part of the problem with comfort saddles is the padding. For an extreme example look at a motorcycle seat (motorcycles has "seats", bicycles have saddles). During touring you meet numerous motorcycle riders and the common complaint from all of them is that their butts hurt. Ride 100 miles on a motorcycle and nearly everyone of them is about to quit! One hundred miles by motorcycles is around 2 hours of riding. The problem is that they are trying to wedge a seat that is 2 feet wide and 6" deep between their legs! We humans are not meant to spend that much time with our legs that far apart! Plus they are "sitting" on the motorcycle like you would in a chair.

Now look at a bicycle saddle: You don't "sit" on the saddle. The saddle supports you as your legs move the pedals. It's more like posting a horse than like sitting on it. A narrow saddle fits between your legs and lets them move more like walking than like the guys on the motorcycles. If you widen and pad the saddle more, you start to get into a seat more like a motorcycle.

A Brooks saddle is unpadded. It is hard. But, unlike plastic saddles, the leather is stretched between the nose and the tail without any underlying support. This makes it act like a hammock since it has downward flex that a plastic saddle does not. That's why it is more comfortable (if you can get past the initial break in phase), because it has flex that plastic saddles don't. Comfort saddles try to mimic this flex by offering lots of padding but what you do is compress the padding into places where compression usually isn't a good thing ;)

Saddles are highly individual. What works for me might not work for you but, if you can, try various saddle models until you find what works. It took me nearly 20 years to find just the right saddle. Good hunting.

you can tour on any kind of bike, and there are people who tour on pretty much all types of bikes. my suggestion would be to figure out how long (time wise) and how far you plan to ride each day. how many and how often you'll take breaks. then go out and ride that much for a few days in a row. see how you feel and adjust your equiptment accordingly. someone riding 50 miles or less a day with a lot of breaks won't necassarily need the same type of equiptment as someone who burns thru 100+ miles a day.
theres really no wrong way to do it, theres just what you enjoy and feel comforatable with. it's fine to suggest alternitives, but i'd ignore anyone who told you staight out you were wrong to use a certain bike or seat.
for me when i tour i tend to spend a lot of hours in the saddle and generally only take short breaks. i tried a few different set ups and found i like a traditional touring bike and a brooks saddle. On a hybrid i found i wasnt able to put in as much saddle time, probably because it was heavier and the front shocks make it less efficient. but, if i were to cut my daily saddle time down by 25% or so, i think the hybrid would have been just fine.

Hi :) I am genuinely interested to know why I keep hearing that hybrids are not suited for touring. It just seems so counter-intuitive. Hybrids are just great for around-town commuting - their tires don't scoff at a wee bit of dirt road, you can outfit them with racks, panniers, etc., and they are comfortable. What more could a person ask for in a touring bike?


For Credit Card Touring there's you can Tour on anything. There are some changes you'd no doubt want to make such as a good saddle and handlebar bag, rear rack and a couple of small sized pannier.

Don't pay any attention to "Touring" snobs.

Many hybrids have a wheelbase and chainstay length that is comparable to many touring bikes. For example, My 2005 Fuji World (58cm) has roughly a 1060 wheelbase and 440 chainstay. My 2004 Trek 7200FX (L) has a 1059 wheelbase and 445 chainstay. The 2006 Trek 520 (L) has a 1052 wheelbase and 450 chainstay. My 7200FX also has plenty of clearance for fenders and mounts for front and rear racks.

Saddles can be replaced, flat bars can be replaced or have bar ends installed for more hand positions. But, most hybrids are aluminum frames, while many of us touring types prefer steel. Lower end hybrids like mine obviously have cheaper components than higher end touring bikes, but the higher end hybrids seem speced well. Gearing is nearly identical, though the Fuji has a 9sp cassette and the Trek 8. Weight? No doubt my Fuji is lighter than my Trek, but I think it's a wash when comparing to say a Trek 520, Fuji Touring etc. which weigh in over 25lbs.

I'm really interested to hear other comments on this!

A 44cm chainstay is a bit short. 45cm or 46 cm are better as is a longer wheelbase, if you are carrying a load for camping touring. For credit card touring, you might get away with a shorter wheelbase because you aren't carrying as much. But there are other factors you should consider as well. Head and seat angles are important. Steep angles on the head and seat tube make for a bike that is quicker handling but twitchy. Tour bikes have relaxed angles. They also have stonger wheels, again important for some touring, not for other types.

Gears are more than just how many there are on the front and back. The range is far more important. Low gears are important for keeping your knees intact. High gears are important for going fast downhill. All the ones in between are just there to make the transition from high to low easier ;) . For more information on gears go here (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears.html).

For Credit Card Touring there's you can Tour on anything. There are some changes you'd no doubt want to make such as a good saddle and handlebar bag, rear rack and a couple of small sized pannier.

Don't pay any attention to "Touring" snobs.

I agree. I tend to do self-supported touring, camping with the occassional nite in a motel, I need/want the classic touring bike. If someone were to set me up with a fully paid for tour from the folks at America By Bike, or one of the other full service, we tote your bags, stay in motels, have rest stops and sag support along the ride tours I would take it, and probably ride my 'fast bike'.

People have done touring on, and in some cases, inspite of, all kinds of equipment. There are some time proven combos, but in the end, it's what work for you.

Steve W.

Don't pay any attention to "Touring" snobs.

So apparently if one has the ideal bicycle for a given task, then one's a snob. I also have a nice tennis racket, so I guess i'm really stuck-up. I've been called 'primitive' and 'strange' for hauling my camping gear or groceries around on a bicycle, but that's a new one.

A 44cm chainstay is a bit short. 45cm or 46 cm are better as is a longer wheelbase, if you are carrying a load for camping touring. For credit card touring, you might get away with a shorter wheelbase because you aren't carrying as much. But there are other factors you should consider as well. Head and seat angles are important. Steep angles on the head and seat tube make for a bike that is quicker handling but twitchy. Tour bikes have relaxed angles. They also have stonger wheels, again important for some touring, not for other types.

Gears are more than just how many there are on the front and back. The range is far more important. Low gears are important for keeping your knees intact. High gears are important for going fast downhill. All the ones in between are just there to make the transition from high to low easier ;) . For more information on gears go here (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears.html).

I'll keep in mind that my 44cm chainstay is too short for my size 13s, despite the fact that I have no heel strike problems with fully loaded GT54s. For cc touring the front GT34s are just fine on the rear. Obviously longer chainstays are preferable, I was just comparing between published specs for my Fuji, my 7200FX and the 2006 Trek 520, point being that the hybrid is comparable to the touring frames. Granted, your Cannondale has longer chainstays than them all.

I also said that the gearing was nearly identical between the bikes, the only difference being 9 vs 8. Both are 11-34, though it looks like the 2006 7200FX is 11-32, so maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me. Hard to count when you have to take off your shoes for anything over 10, other folks shoes for anything over 20. Front chainrings are identical.

IMHO, the high gears are not nearly as important. When loaded, I am content to coast down hills or just spin easy. 230lbs of me, 25lbs of bike and 60lbs of gear give you plenty of speed on the down slope all by themselves, a fact that my 105lb GF just hates when I blow by her without pedaling a stroke! ;)

So apparently if one has the ideal bicycle for a given task, then one's a snob. I also have a nice tennis racket, so I guess i'm really stuck-up. I've been called 'primitive' and 'strange' for hauling my camping gear or groceries around on a bicycle, but that's a new one.

bokes:
This comes from an immigrant.
This land of opportunity has great disparity of wealth and income.
Political correctness requires that we keep this quiet to keep piece in the family.
This is just IMHO.
:)

i agree you can tour on anything

however, if you want an excellent 'hybrid' touring bike and have some cash to burn,

two words: koga miyata

www.koga.com

While I happen to agree that a touring bike with drop bars and a Brooks saddle is the best option for touring, I also have to side with the opinion that you can ride just about any bike. Just do a google search on Heinz Stucke - he's been touring since 1962, still going strong, and I think the bike he rode for the first couple of decades was a 3 speed city bike.

I'll keep in mind that my 44cm chainstay is too short for my size 13s, despite the fact that I have no heel strike problems with fully loaded GT54s. For cc touring the front GT34s are just fine on the rear. Obviously longer chainstays are preferable, I was just comparing between published specs for my Fuji, my 7200FX and the 2006 Trek 520, point being that the hybrid is comparable to the touring frames. Granted, your Cannondale has longer chainstays than them all.

For credit card touring, try running the front bags on the front. It looks strange but the bike handles better. I commute with front bags on lowriders and my wife toured Scotland with only front bags.



I also said that the gearing was nearly identical between the bikes, the only difference being 9 vs 8. Both are 11-34, though it looks like the 2006 7200FX is 11-32, so maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me. Hard to count when you have to take off your shoes for anything over 10, other folks shoes for anything over 20. Front chainrings are identical.

IMHO, the high gears are not nearly as important. When loaded, I am content to coast down hills or just spin easy. 230lbs of me, 25lbs of bike and 60lbs of gear give you plenty of speed on the down slope all by themselves, a fact that my 105lb GF just hates when I blow by her without pedaling a stroke! ;)


The gear thing was aimed more at the original poster than at you. Sorry. Coming from the land of yoyo flats (It really is flat here, it just that those flats are on an angle ;) ) I tend to look at any downhill as a chance for breaking the sound barrier. Haven't done it yet but I keep trying:D

Biggest problem I have with Hybrids are the lack of proper seats for long distance riding and the lack of drop handle bars.

I typically see "comfort" saddles on these things that I doubt are all that comfortable after 50 miles.

I have flat bars on one of my bikes, that I did in fact tour with... biggest mistake I could have made... I had numb hands 1/2 day every day with those. They are great for visibility and commuting, but out on a long trail, you need to be able to move your hands about to relieve pressure.


Been there. Done that. I did a week long mountain bike tour of Colorado B.C. (before children) using only flat bars (barends hadn't been invented yet) and my hands were tingly for 6 months. Really kind of weird to see your hands pick up something and not really be able to feel it. If you are going to tour with a flat bar bike get some barends so that you can move you hands around!

Another note to EllenDSD: If you are going to do tours where you want to ride across several state lines you might want to reconsider the no camping thing. There are areas of the US where it's your only option.

So apparently if one has the ideal bicycle for a given task, then one's a snob. I also have a nice tennis racket, so I guess i'm really stuck-up. I've been called 'primitive' and 'strange' for hauling my camping gear or groceries around on a bicycle, but that's a new one.

by snob i think he means people who insist that unless you have exactly what they think of as the "ultimate touring set up" you're wrong. and the ideal bicycle for a gievn task is a very personal thing.

i agree you can tour on anything

however, if you want an excellent 'hybrid' touring bike and have some cash to burn,

two words: koga miyata

www.koga.com


When I was in Italy, I saw a couple riding Kogas on a round-the-world tour. Looked like a great set-up.