Mass...and power. This is not rocket science. A driver that misjudges an illegal blowing of a red light is very likely to kill someone, or at least damage a lot of property. A cyclist that misjudges blowing a red light is mostly in danger himself only. Even targets that can be hurt by bikes, such as pedestrians and other cyclists, can be much more easily avoided by the cylist, than by the driver. Typically the only option the car has is to slam on the brakes (or, more likely, just blast the horn).

I'm sorry, but this seems pedantic. Its like asking the difference between shot with a rubber band and by a rifle. After all, the only difference between the two is mass and power, right?

The only time I arrived at work bloody was after being hit by a cyclist. I'd say the difference is more like that between being hit by a club and hit with a rifle bullet. A bike is usually not lethal, but it can do significant damage, It is not a car, but it is much more than a rubber band.

I don't see the appeal of running red lights. If it takes a few extra minutes to get to your destination does it really matter? Why the hurry? Red lights give me a chance to briefly rest, collect my thoughts, and scan for traffic. Why is that something to be avoided?

Paul

The only time I arrived at work bloody was after being hit by a cyclist. I'd say the difference is more like that between being hit by a club and hit with a rifle bullet. A bike is usually not lethal, but it can do significant damage, It is not a car, but it is much more than a rubber band.

I don't see the appeal of running red lights. If it takes a few extra minutes to get to your destination does it really matter? Why the hurry? Red lights give me a chance to briefly rest, collect my thoughts, and scan for traffic. Why is that something to be avoided?

Paul

Don't ask me to justify it as a consistant behavior. I merely point out that 'bikes run lights' is merely an excuse for drivers to cop a horrifficly bad attitude towards cyclists, and that it does not balance the equation.

I was so disappointed to see an experienced cyclist blowing through the light like that.

What made you think he was an experienced cyclist?

Add my vote to the MYOB column.

I didn't see anything penitent or concilatory in your original post, i must have missed it.

If you're taking the trouble to roll down your window to 'educate' a cyclist with some pithy comment, you're worthless cager scum in my book. I don't care if you like to bike.

I publically confessed right away to this group. Was that not enough? :o

Jeeze I guess I am scum. :o

I promise not to drive again for a month... is that penance enough... and I will never critisize another cyclist unless I too am on two wheels (I reserve the right to hollar at any and all wrong way cyclists while I too am cycling).

What made you think he was an experienced cyclist?

Add my vote to the MYOB column.

Riding style, clothing, bike and age. The riding style alone would have done it... everything else just added to the plus column and convinced me.

I will, in the future, when driving, MMOB. message received.

I guess no one saw the irony of me using terms on a fellow cyclist that we tend to only use here... "VC"

(I reserve the right to hollar at any and all wrong way cyclists while I too am cycling).

I am totally with you on that one.

Where I live, the one thing that turns cagers against bikers is when bikers impede their progress. You can run stop signs, red lights, etc.. it is probably even looked favorably upon if it gets you out of their way sooner. But God help you if you make the mistake of running a red llight which then causes a driver to slow down!!! you can ride "VC" or "anti-VC" or whatever as long as you don't slow down someone on their way to get a bucket of chicken and a case of Icehouse prior to the nascar race.

Where I live, the one thing that turns cagers against bikers is when bikers impede their progress.

Bingo! We have a winner.

Yesterday i'm riding on the right side of the street and some kid of course is riding on the wrong side. We were coming to a stop sign at the same time and about 50 feet before the sign he comes across to the other side to go through and back left and as he comes towards me a car comes down as he crosses in front and the car moves over to come right at me. The kids never misses a beat and keeps going. I stop and go to the gutter and the car stops. As i clip back in,the driver rolls down his windows and yells at me,stay on the fuc$en sidewalk. I yell back,i'm on the right side of the street. I didnt do anything wrong. Your on the fuc$king street,thats wrong and he drove off,pissed at me.

He probably lives in the real world, and doesn't have a clue what VC means.

I dunno, sounds as if he is old enough to remember the VC were the folks that used bikes on the Ho Chi Min Trail.

What's a "pushbike"?


A predecessor to the pedal bicycle. Usually had a wooden rail seat and the ride did his Fred Flinstone impersonation for propulsion.

Slavery used to be legal. So just because there is a law doesnt me that law is ethically correct. Laws are written by humans. A lot of humans are stupid. If you follow every single law written all the time for your whole life, you're going to die a very stressed out boring person. Loosen up, live a little.

So next time you are thinking of playing mr. law and give someone a lecture, DONT.

I'm sure you've broken a traffic law in your life, so lay off the cyclists who did no one any harm.


edit: obviously slavery was an extreme example; it was to make a point. So i dont want to hear crap from all those easily offended people (i really dislike easily offended people)

Sooooooooooo if i shoot you you'll give me a pass because i'm not big on that law. But some of you stop sign runners would be the first to complain when you get nailed. Oh then it will be different. Look,when i ride on the weekends early,i coast thru the ones on the side streets but not on the big streets and never on the weekdays in the afternoon when its busy.

I am real sure he heard me... I slowed down and got 1:1 with him.

Yes, I was driving... had an early meeting this morning. Had my bike with me too... so I can ride at noon.

Anyway (and Serge is gonna crack up at this)... This cyclist was making his way up Genesee (a multilaned boulevard near my house) and I waited for him to cross in front of me before I turned right onto Genesee. He had just left the BL for a parked car on the side (and the BL disappears there anyway) and moved into the lane at the corner and nicely up to the front at a stoplight. He was being quite "vehicular" at that point. I thought he was going to track stand at the light... but no... he simply RAN the LIGHT. He was an older gent... perhaps a couple years older than myself... looked quite experienced, and then blew all my positive thinking by blowing through the light.

So when the light turned green, I cruised slowly beside him and said... "Hey man, not cool blowing the light... not very vc."

Now I know he heard the first part, but I would bet the "vc" bit went right past him... probably sounded "pc" or something to him...

Of course I didn't "yell" at him as much as talk to him. I was so disappointed to see an experienced cyclist blowing through the light like that. i don't know about the law there, but here in idaho red lights and stop signs are to be treated as yield signs on a bike...as long as you slow down to check for oncoming traffic, if there is none, you can go straight through.

<Devil's Advocate>
I think I'd probably get uppity with anyone doing thier best to support Islamic Terrorism and American/Western European Imperialism deciding that they can tell me how to ride a bike. So he ran a red light and you help kill innocent men, women, and children at $3/gallon. But you had a bike rack so that makes it ok.
</Devil's Advocate>

My point is not to call you bad names or anything. I just want to point out that just about anyone can have all sorts of problems with each of our lifestyles.

Don't believe me? Invite a vegan to dinner :rolleyes:

My point is not to call you bad names or anything. I just want to point out that just about anyone can have all sorts of problems with each of our lifestyles.

Don't believe me? Invite a vegan to dinner :rolleyes:

Is breaking the law and posing a potential threat to cyclists and pedestrians a "lifestyle"?

Paul

i don't know about the law there, but here in idaho red lights and stop signs are to be treated as yield signs on a bike...as long as you slow down to check for oncoming traffic, if there is none, you can go straight through.

Red lights too?!?

Wow too cool.

No, here you are supposed to stop for all of those. I would love to see the law change... especially for stop signs.

In fact in my youth I got pulled over for running three stop signs in a row. Cop said: "well, the first one I could overlook, the second one really turned my head, but three... well, I had to stop you... "

"Shut yer piehole and keep on driving, loser!"

Red lights too?!?

Wow too cool.

No, here you are supposed to stop for all of those. I would love to see the law change... especially for stop signs.

In fact in my youth I got pulled over for running three stop signs in a row. Cop said: "well, the first one I could overlook, the second one really turned my head, but three... well, I had to stop you... "

you know, i treat them both as yield signs, but i know with one i'm playing it safe, as i don't have that portion of the law memorized (i realized before i even ever heard the term vc that my best protection is the law, and so i need to know it and ride by it so that i can use it as defense. plus some of it is just common sense safety). i know there's one where there's some complexity to the rules, but basically...make sure it's safe and you don't have to stop.

Is breaking the law and posing a potential threat to cyclists and pedestrians a "lifestyle"?

Paul

http://www.howardfamily.ws/images/Alaska/s664%20troll%20under%20bridge.JPG


Troll.

So if a car pulls up to a red light, and there's no traffic in the other direction, the car should treat the red light as optional too, right?

I drove my car through a red light yesterday, turned left on red onto a divided 4 lane. There was a car AND a bike behind me. I did it after leaving the bike shop. It's a reaalll long signal.

a driver going 'one on one' to educate a cyclist about his vehicular cycling?

What a flippin loser. What's next, trying to run a bad cyclist off the road?

He probably lives in the real world, and doesn't have a clue what VC means.

Bingo!

So if a car pulls up to a red light, and there's no traffic in the other direction, the car should treat the red light as optional too, right?

They do where I live.

a driver going 'one on one' to educate a cyclist about his vehicular cycling?

What a flippin loser. What's next, trying to run a bad cyclist off the road?So how do you feel about educating bad drivers about the rules of the road?

Example: Police here were ticketing drivers who were using a bike lane as a right turn lane. If you were cycling and the lane (which you are required by state law to ride in) was blocked by cars using it as a turn lane, would you educate them on the rules of the road, or would you let them make it up as they go along?

So how do you feel about educating bad drivers about the rules of the road?

Example: Police here were ticketing drivers who were using a bike lane as a right turn lane. If you were cycling and the lane (which you are required by state law to ride in) was blocked by cars using it as a turn lane, would you educate them on the rules of the road, or would you let them make it up as they go along?

In my state I can use any lane I want if the "bike lane" is obsructed.

If people are in my lane that I am required by law to ride in I break thier car.

you know, i treat them both as yield signs, but i know with one i'm playing it safe, as i don't have that portion of the law memorized (i realized before i even ever heard the term vc that my best protection is the law, and so i need to know it and ride by it so that i can use it as defense. plus some of it is just common sense safety). i know there's one where there's some complexity to the rules, but basically...make sure it's safe and you don't have to stop.

And this is a excuse aling the lines of what drivers would use:

Yes speeding when no one else is around is safe yeah right and running the red is safe yeah right again.

So until the law is change to say cyclists can run the red don't come up with stupid excuses why you should be allow to run the red.

They do where I live.


But running a red is a way for cyclists to educate drivers who run the red?

In other words just because drivers run the red doesn't mean it is a excuse for cyclists to run the red.

my response would have been, "get out of your car and ride, you b^tch!"

I get disgusted by freakazoid drivers 'educating' me about my riding, weather you've got a bike on your car or not. You could be Lance Armstrong putzing around with Sheryl Crow in your muscle car, and I'd still tell you to f**k off.


So you are not a "freakazoid: rider because you told someone to f**k off who is educating you about your riding style ?

But running a red is a way for cyclists to educate drivers who run the red?

In other words just because drivers run the red doesn't mean it is a excuse for cyclists to run the red.


Nope, I am just trying to get where I am going in the safest and most efficient way possible.

I leave the "educating" to people like you.

Have a spiffy day!

They should obey the law.

However, if they do not obey the law, it is at best a misdemeanor. It is not a balance for the appalling attitude all too many drivers have towards cyclists. It is definately not a balance for the horriffic actions some drivers take against cyclists.

If you are trying to equate riding a bike through a red light and driving a car through a red light as equally threatening crimes, you will get no sympathy from me.

And Mr Miskatonic why should I give people like you any sympathy when it seems you are not equating cyclists running the red as the same or equal with drivers doing the same?

Nope, I am just trying to get where I am going in the safest and most efficient way possible.

I leave the "educating" to people like you.

Have a spiffy day!

Running the red is the "safest and most efficient way possible" yes some people do need a lot of education..

What's a "pushbike"?

Scarry it is scary that you don't what you are sitting is called so you need to look up the word in the Dictionary because in the real world pushbike is a word.

But then again this is just your way of getting out in admitting you don't have answers especially when it comes to the truth?

Traffic laws are the way they are because cars are faster, larger, heavier, less manuverable, less efficient, and much more dangerous than bicycles. If you want to wait through a traffic jam on your bike, fine, have fun wasting your time and breathing some carbon monoxide. I'll go around it, and through a light if I judge that it is safe to do so.

Traffic laws are the way they are because cars are faster, larger, heavier, less manuverable, less efficient, and much more dangerous than bicycles. If you want to wait through a traffic jam on your bike, fine, have fun wasting your time and breathing some carbon monoxide. I'll go around it, and through a light if I judge that it is safe to do so.

And of course Traffic Laws clearly states that cyclists can run the red?

So have fun breaking the law because you think running the red is safe and once again until such time as the law is change to allow cyclists to run the red stop making excuses of why you should be allow to break the law.

And if you get caught running the red would this be your excuse sorry officer I didn't want to waste my time breathing carbon monoxide and would get off with this excuse.

But then again if you don't like breathing carbon monoxide don't ride a bike or walk or in fact stay indoors.

Im not making excuses, I am making a conscious choice to break a stupid law.

a driver going 'one on one' to educate a cyclist about his vehicular cycling?

What a flippin loser. What's next, trying to run a bad cyclist off the road?

Nope, no way I would try to run a bad cyclist off the road. And I have seen plenty of them too....

But I HAVE gone out of my way to educate bad motorists... Those that through their bad driving have just missed cyclists. I have persued those motorists and give them my opinion of their driving and how close they came to hitting a cyclist. That I have done more then once. As both a driver and a cyclist. I even carry a copy of the local state laws with me to give to those drivers that "make up the rules" as they see fit.

What it really comes down to the lack of personal responsibilty by anyone using the road... running stop signs, stop lights, speeding, etc and then whining when gee whiz you get hit by someone doing exactly the same thing from the other direction. When is it going to stop? When we all grow up and get our acts together and stop treating the roads as our special little playground.

Go ahead and run the lights and signs if that makes you feel special... but don't get all huffy when someone does it and runs into you... They were just following YOUR example.

As far as some states allowing stopsigns to be yield signs for bikes... great, I applaud that... And until stoplights properly sense bicycles, those too can be carefully checked and "run."

But running a light simply because you can get away with it, that is a whole different problem. In the case cited at the very beginning of this thread, that light runner had no "need" to run the light and his example to the motorists around him just served to give them permission to drive just as he biked. Poorly!

Traffic laws are the way they are because cars are faster, larger, heavier, less manuverable, less efficient, and much more dangerous than bicycles. If you want to wait through a traffic jam on your bike, fine, have fun wasting your time and breathing some carbon monoxide. I'll go around it, and through a light if I judge that it is safe to do so.
see, that's why i have no qualms about running reds, plus genec's point earlier that the lights don't sense us and i don't feel like waiting until a car comes. if no one's coming and the law says i can go through, as it does in my state, i really don't give a d..n if it's VC or not, i'm going through. if it's legal and safe (i'm not so stupid/reckless as to be unable to judge it) but not VC, f..k, i'm still doing it. there's a point where you have to go with what actually works in a given situation withing realms of safety and legality it doesn't take rocket scientist to figure out, regardless of any dogma.

there's a point where you have to go with what actually works in a situation, regardless of any dogma.

Exactly.

then there's running a red with cars around and just speeding up...like drivers often do. i hate it when they do it, i hate it when cyclists do it, but if it's the middle of the night, or a quiet street, i can't see the problem except as a matter of dogma. i sort of had the impression the whole idea was safety, not a party line or anything.

but also as genec said earlier, it's a matter of everyone being responsible for everyone else on the road, so issues like this never are black and white. sometimes going through that light or stop sign is just a stupid, irresponsible thing to do. i won't disagree with anyone who says so, as long as they tack on that "sometimes" to the beginning.

And Mr Miskatonic why should I give people like you any sympathy when it seems you are not equating cyclists running the red as the same or equal with drivers doing the same?

That is not an answer. That is a pathetic attempt to turn the point around.

A bike is incapable of causing the mayhem a car can cause by either one running a red light.

Our traffic laws were designed for cars. They are overkill for bikes. That does not mean they should be ignored, but calling the two acts equal is foolishness. This point eludes you.

A bike is incapable of causing the mayhem a car can cause by either one running a red light.

Our traffic laws were designed for cars. They are overkill for bikes. That does not mean they should be ignored, but calling the two acts equal is foolishness. This point eludes you.
A bicycle running a stop sign in front of me on my bike going 25mph could result in collision which could result in my death.
Traffic laws were not designed for cars. They were designed for all roadway users.

Yesterday in my neighborhood I was preparing for a left turn into my street. A person on a motorized bike (not a moped, but a regular bike with a motor boost) didn't stop coming from my left. They had a stop, I didn't. I ended up braking and swerving hard and nearly colliding with the car behind the other cyclist, all to avoid a colllision.

Al

Im not making excuses, I am making a conscious choice to break a stupid law.

Any law YOU feel like breaking is stupid?

A bicycle running a stop sign in front of me on my bike going 25mph could result in collision which could result in my death.
Traffic laws were not designed for cars. They were designed for all roadway users.


A car can outdo a bike every time, damage wise. I assure you that a car hitting you at 25 mph will do much more damage.

I'm not saying that bikes need no traffic laws, I am saying the ones we have in place are overkill for bikes. The states that have allowed bikes to treat stops as yeilds (when clear) and red lights as stop signs have shown no massive increase in pedestrian deaths as a result of these changes. In fact I am uncertain if there is any increase in pedestrian/bicycle injuries there.


Yesterday in my neighborhood I was preparing for a left turn into my street. A person on a motorized bike (not a moped, but a regular bike with a motor boost) didn't stop coming from my left. They had a stop, I didn't. I ended up braking and swerving hard and nearly colliding with the car behind the other cyclist, all to avoid a colllision.


Yes, we can all find examples where some bozo biker ignored traffic laws and caused problems. Part of the problem is that our laws are so overdesigned for bicycles that many cyclists feel it is easier to ignore the laws (and some are just selfish a-holes, to be fair) and may go too far. Its like trying to squeeze jello in your fist.

A car can outdo a bike every time, damage wise. I assure you that a car hitting you at 25 mph will do much more damage.

I'm not saying that bikes need no traffic laws, I am saying the ones we have in place are overkill for bikes. The states that have allowed bikes to treat stops as yeilds (when clear) and red lights as stop signs have shown no massive increase in pedestrian deaths as a result of these changes. In fact I am uncertain if there is any increase in pedestrian/bicycle injuries there.



Yes, we can all find examples where some bozo biker ignored traffic laws and caused problems. Part of the problem is that our laws are so overdesigned for bicycles that many cyclists feel it is easier to ignore the laws (and some are just selfish a-holes, to be fair) and may go too far. Its like trying to squeeze jello in your fist.

Maybe you think the laws are overkill it but it seems some cyclists think this is an excuse for them to break these laws and until such time as the laws are changed to allow cyclists to run the red.

Then some people especially in here shouldn't come up with piss weak excuse why they should be allow to break the law.

Any law YOU feel like breaking is stupid?

If thelung thinks cyclists should stop at the red light like other road users I am wondering how many other laws they think are stupid and if they and some others who run the red break other laws?

That is not an answer. That is a pathetic attempt to turn the point around.

A bike is incapable of causing the mayhem a car can cause by either one running a red light.

Our traffic laws were designed for cars. They are overkill for bikes. That does not mean they should be ignored, but calling the two acts equal is foolishness. This point eludes you.

You should read your own comments Mr to see that your own comments is pathetic especially when misquote and twist other people comments around.

Also maybe a "bike is incapable of causing the mayhem a car can cause by either one running a red light" but you must admit in public cyclists running the red is equal to a driver running the red since they are both against the law?

That is not an answer. That is a pathetic attempt to turn the point around.

A bike is incapable of causing the mayhem a car can cause by either one running a red light.

Our traffic laws were designed for cars. They are overkill for bikes. That does not mean they should be ignored, but calling the two acts equal is foolishness. This point eludes you.

Mr have you read your own comments to see they are pathetic especially when you misquote people, twist comments around and come up with excuses on why you think cyclists should be allow to run the red.

Also maybe a "bike is incapable of causing the mayhem a car can cause by either one running a red light" but you must admit in public cyclists running the red is equal to a driver running the red since they are both against the law unless you know of a law allowing cyclists to run the red?

Im not making excuses, I am making a conscious choice to break a stupid law.

Maybe you are not making excuses but if you read other people comments you can see what excuses they come up on why should break the law and run the red.

A classic one is because of the Carbon Monoxide well using if this person use common sense they would know if you don't like Carbon Monoxide then you shouldn't be riding a bike on the streets at all.

I dont know what research you looked at but i'll tell you this without any research,any time a cyclist runs a light or a sign or causes any problem,the people in cars that already hate us thinks and tells there friends that they all run lights and signs and causes traffic problems. When one of us screws up,we all are guilty in the motorist minds.

Seeing so many cyclists run the red and ride their bikes straight off the footpath onto the crossing especially in West End in Brisbane.

I thought all cyclists were like this but seeing a few cyclists follow the road rules and walk their bikes across on the crossing I know some cyclists care for the road rules and other road users.