Bicycle Mechanics - What's with the Shimano .v. Campag thing?

Shimano are to bikes, what Microsoft is to software - that is, the dominating force in the market? Campag are to bikes, what Borland is to software, that is, the better force in the market?

I've used Shimano and I've used Campag on different road bikes. To be truthful, I don't know if I could really tell the difference anymore between them.

I this just a purist thing? Chewa, what are your thoughts - being an anti-Shimano man?:)

From what I have read Campagnolo used to be far superior to anything out there and is still a great product. Actually being repairable and rebuildable is a plus, too. A lot of people think Shimano has put together a product at least equal to Campy quality. "Uncle Al" at roadbikerider.com expressed this opinion, and some of Sheldon Brown's articles suggest the same thing.

I love the way my Dura Ace shifters/ders on two of my bikes work, but I still hanker to try some Campy on. I know I will wind up doing it one day if for no other reason than to get it out of my system. Campy still rates way up there on style points!
FWIW,
Raymond

But there is still a lot wrong with Campy. Their rear wheel bearing are in the wrong place, their chainsets can only take large rings.
Fine if you are doing unladen racing (OK they are built for racing), but less good for touring.
I use a Camano/Shampagnolo system on my bike.

Maybe the following link can explain something. It's a bit long but very interesting.


http://www.totalbike.com/articles/Campy-Shimano.html

Originally posted by Bokkie
I this just a purist thing? Chewa, what are your thoughts - being an anti-Shimano man?:)

I'm not anti Shimano per se, they make good stuff. however I am anti "not having a choice"

i used to be able to go into my LBS and choose from Suntour, Huret, Sturmey Archer, Weinmann, mafac, Mavic, Cinelli, Campag, SR, etc. To me it seems that Shimano have just swamped the market to the detriment of choice. Go into most LBS' now and it seems as if if it ain't Shimano they won't have it (unless they specialise in road bikes when they may have Campag)

My 1983 custom built bike had Campag hubs, Wolber rims, tange headset, Cinelli stem, SR bars, Weinman brakes, Campag changers and front mech, Huret rear mech Campag seat post and Madison saddle.

I chose what I thought were the best options at the time. Nearly 20 years later, all of this including the campag stuff (including the hubs) are still running fine.

Shimano are constantly upgrading and don't seem to have the product longevity that Campag have. For someone like me, who likes things they can rely on to work, that's no good. Campag upgrade but maybe not as often and have good spares supply.

i like Campag because it feels great to use, looks good and lasts. However, I've never had a better derailleur than my Huret Duopar rear, which changes even when pressing on the pedals going uphill.

At the moment my Flying Scot has a mix of (mainly) campag and some Shimano. I like the Shimano shifters but they are not as tactile as the Campag ones. The rear mech is good but looks bulky.
I don't really care what equipment is on a bike as long as it works. I just don't want to get to the place where there is only one company making bike gear (unless its Italian of course :D)

I am sure the difference has diminished over the years, but Campag. has traditionally had the hardest, closest-tolerance bearings and races of any bicycle hub or pedal manufacturer. My personal experience supports this contention.

I resent Shimano's planned obsolescence and general lack of repair parts for older equipment.

I miss the original SunTour company.

My current crop of shifters, all oldies-but-goodies:
1959 and 1982 Campag. downtube friction levers
1971 SunTour downtube friction levers
1988 SunTour thumb shifters, in friction mode
How many of today's shifters will be able to take decades of regular use?

My favourite derailleurs:
1982 Campag. Record front
ca. 1980 SunTour Cyclone rear
ca. 1980 Shimano 600 front
ca. 1971 SunTour V rear

with cheap recycled milk bottle plastic parts inside? I ask with tongue planted in cheek....

Scooby snax. Don't know what you mean but mine are all original bits (except for the friction parts on the levers which I replaced a few years ago)

Since you mention milk bottles, I much prefer glass to plastic. (Can you see a link here?) :)

Having never ridden Campagnolo. . .

It's interesting that Shimano NEVER won the TdF until 1999, and has now won 4 in a row.

As to Shimano's "planned obsolescence": What's the alternative? 3- or 5-speeds on the rear, center-pull brakes, downtube friction shifting (not all attributed to Shimano, but bike technology in general). Perhaps, instead, it's "planned improvements."

As to Campagnolo's repairability: It's only an issue at the very highest level, and many (not all) of these riders/racers will replace instead of repair anyway. It's not cost effective to repair most bicycle components at the amateur/consumer level, even if you could get parts.

As to Shimano's dominance: There was a great link recently to a page on the history of Suntour. In the early '80s Suntour was dominant, but it dropped the ball badly and Shimano picked it up. Shimano got where it is by building good components and selling them at fair prices.

As to Campagnolo's style factor: Okay, Campy wins this one.

Shimano and MTB: It's a feather in Shimano's cap that they still advance MTB componentry even though SRAM is the only competitor and a rather minor player. They aren't sitting on their hands. Again, planned obsolescence or product improvement?

I'm not anti-Campy, just playing devil's advocate for some fun.

It's interesting that Shimano NEVER won the TdF until 1999, and has now won 4 in a row

Then again, isn't it down to who ever pays the most? I know the teams would not compromise their potential for success in the tdf, but given what now seems to be fairly even componentry, then the one who pays the team most will get the name on the sponsors logos. I wonder how Shimano paid US Postal to equip their bikes?

Originally posted by WoodyUpstate

As to Campagnolo's repairability: It's only an issue at the very highest level, and many (not all) of these riders/racers will replace instead of repair anyway. It's not cost effective to repair most bicycle components at the amateur/consumer level, even if you could get parts.
Woody,

Not sure that I agree with the above. Most of the racers
replace, maybe repair if the wrench can ensure it won't
break mid race. Consumer/amateur? I think most would
rather repair than replace, and if they can't repair it,
they bring it to LBS.
The thing with Campy is that you CAN get parts.
want to convert your 8 speed ergo to 10 speed (and not
buy new levers?) sure it can be done. I doubt ShimaNo
avails itself to that.
Nothing wrong with ShimaNO IMHO, I just like campy.

Marty

I'll tell ya, after reading the stuff at totalbike that Green Lion was kind enough to reference, I've got more of and itch than ever to strap some Campy shifters and ders on one bike so I can alternate riding the two systems to see if I can feel a difference.

Originally posted by lotek

Consumer/amateur? I think most would
rather repair than replace, and if they can't repair it,
they bring it to LBS.

Marty,

While I agree that Average Joe would prefer to repair than to replace as he/she perceives that a repair would cost less, the cost of low-end components is so inexpensive that the shop time to repair, and parts cost would exceed the cost of the new component.

For example, a Sora rear der runs about $25. If it breaks, toss it.

At the same time, $130 for a Campy Chorus rear is pricey. I'd opt for some shop time to replace a spring or bearing.

In the case of DA, $75 for a broken rear der is borderline replace/repair (assuming a professional shop time, and parts are available). If you're running DA and a racer, like you said, you'd probably replace anyway.

All prices quoted from a mail order catalog. LBS prices would be higher, which might muddy my replace/repair theory.

Woody

Originally posted by green lion
Maybe the following link can explain something. It's a bit long but very interesting.


http://www.totalbike.com/articles/Campy-Shimano.html

It also gives us a glimpse into the pro peloton:
"I must also say that this is very pleasant for hard-core riders (those with a knife at their teeth)".
;)

Just curious. In the article he mentions that with Record "It is possible too to shift at the same time front and rear without drops or strange sounds." Can anybody do this w/their Shimano STI/hyperglide drivetrain? On my Ultegra, a simultaneous shift to small chainring and a smaller cog is almost a guaranteed chain-drop.
When I want to do a quick double-shift to a lower gear, I first push (but don't release) the rear downshift lever, shift to the lower chainring, and then release the rear downshift lever, which allows the rear der shift to actually occur.

my eros is the first all campy bike ive had. ive had the more chi-chi shimano groups however.

i like the campy presitge all italian "craftmanship" (probably all cnc'ed anyway)
i find that shimano indexing is superior no trimming or grating from any shimano groups.

campy is rebuildable and looks more elegant even at the mirage price point. shimano is more industrual looking and "plastic-like".:) :beer:

Kolkron,

Campy drivetrain usually takes about 100 miles (sometimes
more) to break in. I'd be curious to know how many
miles you have on gruppo and a followup.

Woody,
Points well taken re lower end components (replace/repair).
I guess I'm talking about the average BikeForum rider,
we seem to have alot of amatuer wrenches here (including
myself).

bottom line, ride what you like, they're both excellent groups.
I do however regret the demise of Suntour, their Cyclone
and Subperbe groups rivaled anything by then Campy,
Huret, Simplex, Galli and Ofmega. I also like choice, but
then again I like the mix 'n match that friction allows.

Marty

Originally posted by roadbuzz
On my Ultegra, a simultaneous shift to small chainring and a smaller cog is almost a guaranteed chain-drop.


I had the same problem with my Ultegra drivetrain. However, I think I have it straightened out with a little front der adjustment and keeping my chain clean and lubed. Since "discovering" this I haven't dropped a chain. Putting on a new Sachs/SRAM PC-89 chain may have helped, too. Perhaps the old chain was shot (1,500 miles).

Originally posted by kolkron
shimano is more industrual looking and "plastic-like".

Welll, I might agree with you as to the groups up to 105 which do have plastic inner levers, but I'm not sure I can agree with regard to Dura Ace. They are pretty sweet looking.

I was hoping I left all of this kind of stuff behind when I stopped visiting computer geek sites. Jeez.

As for the reasoning sorry I don't have anything to input. I use shimano for ease of replacement. Most places up here refuse to carry sram as they tend to break easier (there words NOT mine) on this terrain. So they don't like to see the stuff.

As for the road bike thing. I don't think we have any here ;)

Now to quality. Since I ride rough and tough terrain I like cheap but working. If there are some plastic parts on it to save cost thats great. If I run my deraileur into a rock I don't want to spend 200$ to replace it. I like the 50$ ones. They still shift fine :)