Bicycle Mechanics - All that new stuff...integrated headsets, internal headsets, threadless forks

Okay, here's the scoop. I have an older road frame that isn't up to the technological advances of past years. Lets say I got a new frame...

What are integrated headsets? Some places I see things called internal headsets. Are they the same? Different? Also, in catalogs I see pictures of them. There is only a top part though, it seems. Is there not a bottom part?

I have a quill stem. Do all threadless forks work with integrated headsets? Is there a big difference between carbon and aluminum steerer-tubed forks? Do they not work with certain other things (headsets, etc.)?

What are those spacers that you see with threadless set-ups? Do you need them? What do they do?



Most importantly...Lets say I got a frame that said it had a "1 1/8 integrated headtube with an internal headset". What exactly would I need to buy to make it complete (do I need a new fork, do I need spacers, etc.)?

Thanks!

If I may go editorial for a moment... over my dead body would I buy a frame that cannot be used with a "traditional" headset of either the threaded or threadless variety. The "integrated" and/or "internal/ZeroStack" ones... well, I side with Chris King's position, found here: link to CK's page (http://www.chrisking.com/tech/int_headsets_explained/int_hds_explain_1.html) and the PDF version (http://www.chrisking.com/pdfs/Int%20Headsets%20Explained.pdf).


What has been "integrated" by the integrated headset? The bearings now rest inside the frame instead of inside pressed-in bearing cups. All of this trouble and confusion is to remove two 12-gram bearing cups from the front of your bicycle.

Last time I posted this, someone remarked that CK is having a case of sour grapes, which ignores the fact that he makes the Perdido integrated headset, not just traditional types. Also, promoting the "old" standard does nothing to enhance his market share against all the makers of regular headsets (Campy, Shimano, Dia-Compe). If anything, he has less competition in the high-end integrated-headset market than he does in the high-end standard-headset market.

To help answer your question: as far as I know, all of the internal and integrated headset systems are designed for threadless forks, and as long as the threadless fork's steer tube is of a suitable length and the proper diameter (1 1/8", in your hypothetical case), it should work if installed properly*. So you would need a fork with a threadless steering column, a stem made for threadless, and enough spacers to get the stem up to the height that you prefer (this is the spacers' function). The headset should come with the frame.

*forks with carbon steer tubes often require special precautions to be taken.

Intergrated headsets are designed to reduce the parts needed.
On a regular headset, the doughnut-shaped pieces that fit and the top and bottom (that usually say "Chris King" or "Cane Creek", etc).

The intergrated headset does away with those and just machines them into the ends of the head tube so that the only visible piece is the top cover surrounding the steerer tube. It also lowers your stack height so you can lower your bars more than on a standard headset.

All threadless forks work with intergrated headsets. BUT if you are buying the frame and fork seperately, you should get a fork designed to fit intergrated headsets. They are wider and flat at the top of crown so it "blends" with the headtube. A "normal" fork crown curves in all the way to the steerer tube so it will look odd on an intergrated headset frame. No performance difference.

Carbon and aluminum steerer tubes: difference is a HUGE amount of weight. also, some (very rare) stems will not work with carbon steerers (might crush the tube).

If you got an intergrated 1 1/8 frame, you would need the headset (see which your bike was designed for. Campy intergrated is common). you would need spacers.
If you already have a 1 1/8 fork and the steerer tube is long enough, you can re-use it. If you get a new fork, don't cut the steerer tube too short!! Cut it too long first and cover it with spacers until you get adjusted and then cut to perfect fit.

Spacers raise the stem to the appropriate height for you. Some people flip the stem instead. there is a school of thought that if it is a properly fitted bike, you don't need spacers and the stem should sit atop the headset-- it works for some people but I don't buy that argument.

Okay, that's good so far. Add another question to that. What do the fork rakes mean? Do all rakes fit on all frames? What are the details?

Thanks, again!

RacerX.......some integrated HS also use cups IN the frame that the bearings then ride in.Two DIFFERENT ways of doing it.

...and the price of tea in China is $1.50/lb today.

There is more than 2 different systems, but has nothing to do with the original questions. What you get on your frame is what you are going to use.
Here is more on different headsets:
headsets (http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/fix/?id=howfix_headtypes)

you still dont get it..........

Okay then guys...seriously, what's up with rake? Why would you want one rake over another?

Velo,
Rake is the forward sweep of the fork. The more forward sweep or rake, the more the fork can flex and absorb shock. I have seen statements like "Make sure the new fork has the same rake as the old fork.", but I admit I haven't read much on this subject. Pokey, is what I have said about rake more or less accurate?
Regards,
Raymond

Rake, as I understand it is determined my the head angle. This is from Mountain Bike Action Magazine, March issue:

Head Angle: The angle of the frame's head tube and the forks axis. Head angle determines how the bicycle responds to steering input and it's inherent stability.

What it does: The head angle determines how much the front tire actually steers the bicycle with a given amount of rotation at the handlebar. The slacker the head angle, the more you need to turn the handlebar to make the front wheel steer. A steep head angle (72 degrees) feels more sensitive and requires a lighter touch at the handlebar - but it also causes the steering geometry to react too quickly for high speeds. Slacker (70 degree) head angles feel heavier at the handlebar, steer more predictably and cause the bike to handle better when you are going fast.
Cross-Country racers like steep head angles between 72 and 71 degrees, because the steering is less affected by lateral forces caused by pulling on the handlebars or rough, out-of-the-saddle pedaling. Trail riders and freeriding types gravitate toward slacker angles between 70.5 and 69 degrees, because they give them more reaction time and much more control on downgrades.

All you need to know: 71 degrees is a popular head angle because it keeps the steering light while climbing. One or two degrees slacker keeps a dual-suspension bike riding level under power and hard braking. The angle of a grade affects you steering geometry.

Originally posted by velo
Okay then guys...seriously, what's up with rake? Why would you want one rake over another? But, I don't even have a lawn.:confused:

If you didn't quite absorb Dirtgrinder's post about rake, the simple explanation is that the more rake, the smoother the ride BUT, the less responsive the steering will be.

Really exaggerated rakes have frame geometry where the head tube is angled greater toward the front. Imagine a chopper motorcycle fork, for example. That would have a big and exaggerated rake. Of course, turning would be much less responsive – just enough for Peter Fonda to ride circles around a campfire surrounded by a bunch of hippie friends in the movie Easy Rider , for example. If he had a tighter rake, he could ride circles around a bottle of Jack Daniels.

Of course, with a tighter rake, his ride would be a lot less comfortable – especially with Jack Nicholson riding on the back.

You can get forks with different degrees of rake and, based on my experience, you can interchange them on you bike.

Why don't all you guys go to Sheldon Browns site at www.harriscyclery.com and check the glossary of bike terms for rake AND trail.

Okay, I think I got the rake thing down. Lets put it into an example to make sure...lets say I got a frame with a headtube angle of 72...how would the bike handle different if I put a fork with a rake of 40? What about 45?

Thanks again!
I'm catching on...

Good advice, as usual, Pokey! Here I am always referring people to Sheldon's site then I don't think of it myself! These senior moments seem to coming earlier than I thought they would.

Originally posted by pokey
Why don't all you guys go to Sheldon Browns site at www.harriscyclery.com and check the glossary of bike terms for rake AND trail.
Why? It's not nearly as in-depth as the one I posted.

Yes, your post was very good, dirtgrinder. Thank-you very much for it. Can you help me out with my last post:



Okay, I think I got the rake thing down. Lets put it into an example to make sure...lets say I got a frame with a headtube angle of 72...how would the bike handle different if I put a fork with a rake of 40? What about 45?

aftermarket forks usually only come in 40,43,45. There is some general rule of thumb on this... like bikes below 55cm or so fit 40 and above fit 45 (I know my #'s are all wrong). I think the frame manufacturer (Orbea, in your case) would have a recommendation for fork rake for each specific frame.

I know the Cannondale womens bikes have 40 on the under 50cm bikes and ALL the other road racing bikes have 43mm rake on all sizes.

Originally posted by pokey
Why don't all you guys go to Sheldon Browns site at www.harriscyclery.com and check the glossary of bike terms for rake AND trail.


But that would take all the fun outa the blissful ignorance.;)

I'm assuming that by rake on fork itself you are referring to the offset of the axle. The result of that combined with the head tube angle produces what is called trail. Again I'm quoting from an article on frame geometry.

Fork offset and trail: These are the least understood funtions of a mountain bike's steering geometry, and they are inseparable elements. Fork offset refers to the amount that the front axle is located in front of an imaginary line through the center of the steerer and head tube. If you ttrace that same line through the center of the steerer, and mark where it contacts the ground-- trailis the distance from there to the point where the tire touches directly below the axle.

What they do: Because the tire contacts the ground behind the steering axis, ("trailing" the head angle), any time the wheel angles away from the direction the bicycle is traveling, the trail function forces the wheel to weathervane back in line. The more trail, the greater the force of this self-correcting action.

Fork offset controls how much trail there is: More fork offset means less trail. The second (and more important) aspect of fork offset is the role it plays in the steering process. Because the weight of the wheel and most of the fork is offset above and ahead of the steering axis, as you lean the bike, they fall toward the inside of the lean. The weight of the fork and wheel reacting to the offset is the primary reason your bike steers into a turn when you lean it. Trail is what makes it straighten back out.
Fork offset is dictated by suspension fork makers at about 1.25 inches. Due to this, frame designers are limited to head angles between 71 and 69 degrees in their efforts to balance these two offosing forces to keep the steering light-feeling at the handlebar without sacrificing stability.

What you need to know: Trail causes the front wheel to straighten out and fork offset causes the bike to turn in when it is leaned. The best bikes achieve a balance between these two steering forces with a 71 to 70 degree head angle.

Hope this helps some Velo!

Awesome diagram Dirtgrinder! :) If you wanted, you could add the head tube and show the offset/rake too, but that part's not too hard to grasp without being illustrated.