Foo - Nascrap !!!

Anyone catch on CNN the news that NASCAR drivers are as highly-trained as astronauts??? Yeah right... that's why they have to unionize to get decent wages while 10,000 equally capable teenagers are knocking on their doors willing to do their jobs for free... heh, heh... http://www.gururacing.com/imagesmisc/graemlins/graemlin-tongue.gif. The NASTICAR marketing machine has gone even more mainstream... :eek:

Many astronauts have advanced degrees and are obviously highly intelligent people. I have not seen that level of intelligence in the NASCAR folks, nice as some of them are. I know which one I consider the higher goal, and which one I'd do if given the choice.

that's why we should all be watching ChampCar (www.champcarworldseries.com) instead of the taxi cab racing NASCAR is shoving in people's faces.
seriously, i think people actually get smarter when watching ChampCar and F1.

Anyone catch on CNN the news that NASCAR drivers are as highly-trained as astronauts??? Yeah right... that's why they have to unionize to get decent wages while 10,000 equally capable teenagers are knocking on their doors willing to do their jobs for free... heh, heh... http://www.gururacing.com/imagesmisc/graemlins/graemlin-tongue.gif. The NASTICAR marketing machine has gone even more mainstream... :eek:

The pay isn't bad though.

that's why we should all be watching ChampCar (www.champcarworldseries.com) instead of the taxi cab racing NASCAR is shoving in people's faces.
seriously, i think people actually get smarter when watching ChampCar and F1.


At least those good ol' NASCAR boys have enough sense to cover their tires with fenders.

haha...
i'll give 'em that much. they definitely give themselves a lot of room for mistakes:lol:

that's why we have the open-wheel addage: "turn right and rub this!"

I think they should have a circular track in nascar with steering lock. Once you find the right line, just mash the gas and lock the steering then sit back and enjoy a DVD for the next 2 hours.

isn't that how they already do it?

Isn't orbiting the track about the same as orbiting the earth? :D

Almost, tracks aren't round enough... yet.

bah..
i remember seeing somewhere that a "properly set-up" stock car can run alot of those bankings full stomp and the driver doesn't have to have more than a thumb on the wheel.
i guess that's where you have some similarity with how a space shuttle pilot works.

so i guess a good comparison to an open-wheel road/street course driver would be an F16 pilot in a straight-up dogfight.

The article forgets to mention that most of the time, the space shuttle's on auto pilot!

my point exactly :)

Not to defend NASCAR or anything, but my beef with F1 can be summed up as follows:

Remember that race last year when one car PASSED another? That was wicked.

NASCAR's about as interesting as watching paint dry. I'd rather watch Rallye Racing. Driving on closed road courses through snow, rain, mud, gravel, dirt, pavement, cobblestone, etc. with the chance of flipping your car over on the hood and having the spectators push your car back on it's wheels and continuing to race is much more interesting than watching corporate ads fly by at 200 mph on a closed loop.

As for NASCAR drivers being as highly trained as astronauts, I believe they are. Afterall, we did send chimps into space...

WRC is great, but would be much more interesting if they had a way to televise it live. just doesn't carry as much excitement when you already know who won.

and i resent the paint drying remark! i do that all the time :o

I'd rather watch Rallye Racing. Driving on closed road courses through snow, rain, mud, gravel, dirt, pavement, cobblestone, etc. with the chance of flipping your car over …

I'm with you there, yoss. I remember seeing a wacked-out driver (a Canadian, too!) driving around a corner that crested a hill, and the crazy man was flying this car 20' above the bushes on the inside of the curve, and landing on the road again. They had the in-car camera, and I nearly swallowed my tongue until he landed it.

If it has to be done with a motor, THAT is my kind of racing.

WRC's my favorite type of racing cuz unlike Nascar, the WRC cars actually LOOK like the models they're based on and use the same engine blocks. Where else but WRC can you watch the drivers get pulled over by the cops b/c the navigator is hanging out the driver's side window to keep the car balanced on three wheels cuz one of the wheels broke?

I agree, it's too bad you can't watch it in North America live. Speed channel gives it short shrift cuz they're owned by Nascar and it's all taped. And they don't even cover SCCA rallye racing at all.

I'm with you there, yoss. I remember seeing a wacked-out driver (a Canadian, too!) driving around a corner that crested a hill, and the crazy man was flying this car 20' above the bushes on the inside of the curve, and landing on the road again. They had the in-car camera, and I nearly swallowed my tongue until he landed it.

If it has to be done with a motor, THAT is my kind of racing.
A wacked-out Canadian you say. Isn't that redundant? ;) I believe there's a Canadian or two doing well in SCCA. I guess driving in all that snow and slush has it's benefits.

Champ car?

Are you guys watching re-run of few years ago?

Highly trained?

Turn Left
Turn Left
Turn Left
Turn Left
WATCH OUT FOR THE WALL!!!
Turn Left
Turn Left
Turn Left

Champ car?

Are you guys watching re-run of few years ago?

huh?

Champ car?

Are you guys watching re-run of few years ago?

Champ cars do both oval and road tracks.

Champ cars do both oval and road tracks.

not for long...
milwaukee is all but dead, and vegas will be a street course within two years. maybe after the IRL finally shrivels up dies as well, they'll start going back to certain ovals.
have you seen the new champcar formula for 2007? it's gonna be unreal, especially with all the defectors coming home.

huh?

It has been out of business for a while?

nope. going strong and getting stronger. they just announced the new formula for 2007. who do you think runs the long beach grand prix every year? :)

www.champcarworldseries.com

nope. going strong and getting stronger. they just announced the new formula for 2007. who do you think runs the long beach grand prix every year? :)

www.champcarworldseries.com

Look at that!

Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser. I haven't heard those names in 5 years!! Do they have a career!?

Maybe Al Unser Jr. be back from the retirement soon.

I didn't even know they still do the Long Beach. :eek:

yep.. they have big trucks with fancy paint jobs and everything. pit crews even have their own uniforms!:lol:

it's no small-time series.

The only time nascar racing is any fun to watch is when somebody wrecks.

bah..

so i guess a good comparison to an open-wheel road/street course driver would be an F16 pilot in a straight-up dogfight.

bah is right!

Your comparison would be a good comparison in the same way as the comparison between NASCAR and astronauts is... Specifically, a good laugh.

nope. going strong and getting stronger.

www.champcarworldseries.com

I believe it when the Penske and Ganassi team returns to CART.

It's not the formula(I don't know what that is) that gets the business going, but the sponsorships, the attendance and the viewer rating on the TV that get the business going.

As for NASCAR drivers being as highly trained as astronauts, I believe they are. Afterall, we did send chimps into space...
lol.
I shot a chunk of taco out of my nose...

:D

Ther eis something to be said for the sheer power of a NASCAR, they are at what now, 750bhp? Regardless of vehicle, that kind of power is rather hard to keep under control. It's also the speeds they are going.

Pretty much NASCAR is a high speed event, and in all high speed events, the focus is on maintaining speed, and since the course is fairly easy, it's become a perfection game...where the driver with the best form/tactics wins. There are some tactcs regarding when to pit and when not to pit, drafting who, etc....it's just not very exciting to watch for many people.

I always liked watching the end season races, the competition is so much better at that point in the year, and the drivers tend to get a lot mroe ballsy, sometimes a little too much.

...F1/WRC/etc is all more fun to watch, but when you get down to it, the skills are very similar as far as cornering technique and tactics are concerned...it's just the track design, and purpose of the event.

NASCAR had it's roots in bootlegging....basically when prohibition ended, all these bootleggers had these ungodly fast "runner" cars, and nothing to do with them...one track opened up, later on some more, and a few decades later NASCAR formed. thus the huge emphasis on high speed in NASCAR, as back then oval tracks were the easiest thing to run these cars on....most of them were just seiously modified chevys and fords from that era. This also leads to NASCAR engine restrictions....those engines put out more power per liter than any other naturally aspirated engine I have ever heard about.....750bhp out of a 350ci (5.7L) engine is prety darn impressive.

Most other leagues formed out of a desire for a particular racing style...such as rally and it's off-road nature....or F-1 and it's extreme handling-oriented nature....all the way to SCCA's new FormulaD league (drifting...hella fun stuff!).

Dude... sheer horsepower on an oval track? You gotta be kidding.
Similar cornering technique? LEFT TURN ONLY!! And if you've seen nascar stock cars on a road track, they look like ALMS gt cars like the m3's and the 911's running around the track.
F1 cars get almost 1000hp from a 3 liter that rev's to 18000 rpm. Not to mention thousands of shifts per race at ridiculous speeds. I'm surprised they need more than 1 speed in nascar, hell it could be single speed and the race would be the same.

I believe it when the Penske and Ganassi team returns to CART.

It's not the formula(I don't know what that is) that gets the business going, but the sponsorships, the attendance and the viewer rating on the TV that get the business going.

you're joking, right? since when are penske or ganassi a barometer for the condition of a series? let's see who puts their name on ganassi's cars next season, because it's not going to be target. have you seen teh IRL's numbers lately? red bull asked cheever to switch to champcar or they would end their sponsorship. target is tired of racing in front of nobody, and penske is taking his operation to the ALMS. tony george - the FOUNDER AND OWNER of the IRL said in an interview that he didn't realize how expensive it was to run a team in the IRL. toyota is gone. chevy is gone. and honda has only made a verbal agreement to supply the series with engines. they've lost three events to small crowds. the list goes on and on. penske and ganassi won't have a series in two years unless they coem crawling back(and they will) to champcar. hilarious. tony george killed his own series by inviting toyota and honda.

meanwhile, champcar supplies its own engines, has a better chassis, etc., etc. they are as self-sufficient as it gets. plus, they're expanding every year. guess where red bull and target are going? there's a connection that goes something like this: champcar/costworth -- red bull/cosworth -- champcar/F1/cosworth/squadra torro rosso(red bull).

you better look at something other than penske and ganassi. they don't have the power they did when they were in CART. watch this space:lol:

you're joking, right?

I have no idea what happened since Penske, Ganassi left the CART. I don't watch Indy.

I have no idea what happened since Penske, Ganassi left the CART. I don't watch Indy.

yeah, the IRL is a complete joke. all of the team owners fear for their driver's lives. it's unfortunate that in a series so full of talent the only driver that anyone cares about is danica patrick. that's great and all, but it's pretty sad when your hopes and dreams are being carried on the shoulders of some girl who hasn't won a race since she was driving gokarts. not to mention that when she's involved in a crash, it's always someone else's fault. come to think of it, that should be the IRL's official slogan: "it wasn't danica's fault."

bah is right!

Your comparison would be a good comparison in the same way as the comparison between NASCAR and astronauts is... Specifically, a good laugh.

whoosh, right over your head like an F16 :)

If I want to watch drunk hillbillies crashing into each other
Ill go watch the Wal*Mart parking lot on a friday nite.
Nascar is really having a negative impact on televisions credibility
and educational aspects.

Dude... sheer horsepower on an oval track? You gotta be kidding.
Similar cornering technique? LEFT TURN ONLY!! And if you've seen nascar stock cars on a road track, they look like ALMS gt cars like the m3's and the 911's running around the track.
F1 cars get almost 1000hp from a 3 liter that rev's to 18000 rpm. Not to mention thousands of shifts per race at ridiculous speeds. I'm surprised they need more than 1 speed in nascar, hell it could be single speed and the race would be the same.



I won't argue that NASCARs are sleds...they are, but it does take a pretty good driver to keep that much steel in check. If you ever done even amateur stock car, you would realize it's a bit tougher than it looks. Even an oval track can be a huge pain if you have to deal with a large car.

As for how they corner in a road track, look at the wheelbase and the size of the car...they aren't exactly compact cars.

Plus cornering technique is cornering technique. Outside of NASCAR, many of these drivers can drive on par with drivers from other leagues. That's like saying a track cyclist can't corner like a road cyclist. In this case the track has been made for pure speed, and not all kinds of turns.

Yes the turns make it more technically challenging, but you can't jsut go to sleep or watch a DVD.

As for the engine horsepower...those 3 liter engines are turbocharged...you can get far more power out of an engine that way. Impressive numbers, but getting as high without any turbo/supercharging as those stock cars, is quite an engineering feat....even more so if you actually take teh time to read the engine specs...it's pretty much a 2-valve per cylinder, pushrod v-8...not some overhead cam, 5-valve per cylinder marvel....it's breaking the 100 horse per liter mark on ancient engine designs that's so impressive.

Also keep in mind with such an aggressively built engine, that low-end power is practically non-existant...most of these cars have to be pushed from a stop to get moving, unless you want to do a nice burnout. So they do need more than 1 speed :p

And yes, no NASCAR is the car type they call them...basically they have to use the approved chassis, and specific body panels for safety reasons, then they can choose a few of their own, so long as they meet specs, and then paint it to resemble whatever car it's suppoed to be. They quit using production cars for NASCAR, due to safety reasons....namely the chassis were not able to survive a 180+mph crash.

All in the end, you are comparing apples to oranges....two totally different vehicle builds, each specialized for it's own prupose.

You need to look at actual numbers, not just qualitative statements:

"As for the engine horsepower...those 3 liter engines are turbocharged..."

IRL: 3.0L V8 normally-aspirated, 650-675bhp
CART: 2.65L V8 turbocharged to 3-bar, 825-875bhp
Formulae1: 3.0L V10/V12, normally-aspirated, 900-950bhp

The ultimate test of any car is laptimes on the identical track, on the same day to reduce variables. In 2002, NASCAR raced at Laguna Seca. The opener for them was the 125cc shifter-carts. Guess who got faster times than the $100k NASCARs? The $1500 shifter-carts!!! were about 2.5s average faster than the main attraction!

There was also a comparison between an IRL driver vs. NASCAR driver with swapping cars. I'll have to dig out the specifics, maybe someone can fill in the details here. Basically IRL driver in NASCAR was about 1.5s slower than NASCAR driver in NASCAR. However, NASCAR driver in IRL car was over 6s slower than IRL driver IRL car...

EDIT: fixed car specs...

You need to look at actual numbers, not just qualitative statements:

"As for the engine horsepower...those 3 liter engines are turbocharged..."

IRL/CART: 3.5L v8 turbocharged to 3-bar, 825-875bhp
Formulae1: 3.0L V10/V12, normally-aspirated, 900-950bhp

The ultimate test of any car is laptimes on the identical track, on the same day to reduce variables. In 2002, NASCAR raced at Laguna Seca. The opener for them was the 125cc shifter-carts. Guess who got faster times than the $100k NASCARs? The $1500 shifter-carts!!! were about 2.5s average faster than the main attraction!

There was also a comparison between an IRL driver vs. NASCAR driver with swapping cars. I'll have to dig out the specifics, maybe someone can fill in the details here. Basically IRL driver in NASCAR was about 1.5s slower than NASCAR driver in NASCAR. However, NASCAR driver in IRL car was over 6s slower than IRL driver IRL car...

very nice, but i HAVE to make one correction: CART/ChampCars are 2.65L turbo V8's, while the IRL CRAPWAGONS (http://www.crapwagon.com) run a normally aspirated 3.0L V8.

Sorry, I pulled up old specs... I saw an article that IRL went from 4.0L V8 down to 3.5L, now they're at 3.0L...

The relative comparison has to be fair to the rules as well. That's the main difference why the IRL series has down downhill so much. The rules don't foster competition or research-spending. The racing isn't as exciting or fast as the champ cars.

Same thing with the NASCAR rules. One of the main intention of the rules was to offer low-cost racing by limiting engine-specs to a 1950's technology. Minimum weights of over 3000 lbs means no expensive materials need be used.

We just have to look at what NASCAR for what it is, an inexpensive, low-tech path to racing. With that intent, it's done pretty well.

no need to apologize :) everything else sounded good to me! the IRL/Indycar formula is about as quick around a road course as a NASCAR, anyway.

haha... actually, i should probably apologize for being such a ChampCar extremist. but i'm not gonna do that :lol:

We just have to look at what NASCAR for what it is, an inexpensive, low-tech path to racing. With that intent, it's done pretty well.

two things i will give them:
-- they promote the HECK out of their drivers, and the fans love that. the the lowliest guy on the grid has thousands of fans and they'll stand behind him even when he's 35th in the points.

-- the graphics on the cars are simply awesome in most cases. the only thing i don't like is that it's not PAINT :(

Same thing with the NASCAR rules. One of the main intention of the rules was to offer low-cost racing by limiting engine-specs to a 1950's technology. Minimum weights of over 3000 lbs means no expensive materials need be used.

We just have to look at what NASCAR for what it is, an inexpensive, low-tech path to racing. With that intent, it's done pretty well.

One thing about NASCAR that I enjoy is that fans like to wear clothes with their favorite driver's number on them. That makes it easier to strike up a conversation with a complete stanger. I was waiting to be seated at a local restaurant Sunday afternoon when a gentleman wearing a Number 48 cap sat down next to me .

"Boy, ol' Jimmie Johnson really pulled out that win last night, didn't he?" I commented. The conversation then took off and the wait for the table became less tedious. Also, guys down here in the deep South can identify a little better with a guy named Junior than they can with someone named Markus, Sebastian, or Juan Pablo.

I am impressed with the ability of F1 and rally car drivers. I feel sure that the skill set required of them is much more demanding than that of a NASCAR driver, but there is something refreshing in watching a race where you think to yourself, "Man, I could do that. At least I could handle that car better than Bobby Hamilton Jr."

I watch guys like Loeb and Gronholm and realize that I would be killing spectators if I tried to drive a rally car. Put me in an F1 car and I would have that transmission turned into hamburger within two laps. I can still dream that, if you put me in a Busch Series car, I could be competitive. I'd probably bounce it off the SAFER Barriers as soon as the car got up to speed.

I just realized that there is something that is a bigger waste of natural resources than the trophy wife driving her SUV two blocks to the convenience store.

But I still love technology, always and forever...

I believe it when the Penske and Ganassi team returns to CART.

allgoo, here's a good article from teh toronto star about the current state of the north american open-wheel war. i just copied and pasted here because you have register to read their online content.

Oct. 15, 2005. 01:00 AM

Champ Car co-owner plays hardball
Kevin Kalkhoven snaps up Toronto Molson Indy
Indy's Tony George running out of responses to rivals


NORRIS MCDONALD
TRACKTALK

Kevin Kalkhoven is a street fighter. Think of the Ultimate Fighting Championship, in which the only thing you can't do is bite, and that's Kalkhoven.

Tony George sometimes puts on the boxing gloves and protective headgear and gets into the ring at the YMCA for a little sparring with a buddy. Later, they split a spritzer.

That's the big difference between the two men, as is becoming clearer day by day. One's a hockey player who likes to go into the corners; the other's a tennis player who wears white.

Kalkhoven has an ego the size of Ontario and likes nothing more than winning by taking risks. He was CEO of a Silicon Valley South/North company called JDS Uniphase and turned it into one of the biggest telecom engineering firms in the world by buying up all the competition. Then he went into telecom access networking and did the same thing. He's a downhill skier, a pilot of private jets, and likes life on the Wallenda level: high up and perilous.

George, whose ego is only the size of Indiana, didn't have to do a lot to be successful. He inherited everything in his life, including the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. He's made a couple of significant decisions since, but they were no-brainers: instead of one race a year there, the Indy 500, there are now three — the NASCAR Brickyard 400 and the Formula One U.S. Grand Prix being the others. Like Kalkhoven, however, he also takes financial risks but the Speedway is such a huge generator of cash money year in and year out that if he ever loses, it's no big deal.

So he just doesn't have the killer instinct.

Three years ago, George's Indy Racing League had the upper hand in the North American open-wheel racing war. The IRL had the big teams, the big sponsors and the big TV contract.

CART was bankrupt. It was flat on its butt on the ground. Chris Pook had spent $100 million trying to keep it going. It had no life in it and no money.

If Kevin Kalkhoven had been in Tony George's shoes back then, open wheel racing wouldn't be in the mess it is today. Kalkhoven, just like any good schoolyard bully, would never have let CART get up.

Kalkhoven would have used every argument at his disposal, and all the money he had to spend, to keep CART down.

But Tony George, the golfer, is not Kevin Kalkhoven, the nose tackle. George the fair-player let CART get back up. He let Kalkhoven, Gerald Forsythe and Paul Gentilozzi convince a bankruptcy judge in Indianapolis to let them have the bankrupt company's schedule of races in order to have one more kick at the can.

It might have been the biggest mistake of his life.

In recent weeks, there have been a number of significant developments:

The IRL schedule for 2006 was issued and there are fewer races scheduled. There are no races in Canada and no races west of the U.S. midwest are on the calendar, which means the IRL cannot even call itself a national series, never mind an international one.

Rumours intensified that certain IRL teams, in particular Target Chip Ganassi, are planning to leave the IRL and return to what is now called Champ Car.

Several IRL sponsors, notably Red Bull energy drinks, reportedly had notified teams of their intention not to renew their contracts.

The IRL is serviced by two chassis manufacturers — Dallara and Panoz. Champ Car announced this week it had scooped the Panoz out from right under the IRL's nose and that Elan Motorsports Technologies (the firm that builds the Panoz) would become its sole chassis provider as of the 2007 season.

And most important, on Wednesday, Rick Matsumoto reported exclusively in the Star that Champ Car had cut the IRL off at the pass by entering into a memorandum of agreement to purchase the assets of the Molson Indy Toronto (translation: the race).

In so doing, Kalkhoven eliminated any possibility that the IRL (which had similar designs) could ever replace Champ Car at Canada's most important Indy-car race, just as he did by purchasing the Long Beach Grand Prix race in California.

All of the above is nothing but bad news for Tony George.

But that last one has really got to hurt. George and others in the IRL, notably Michael Andretti and Bobby Rahal, have wanted to race in Toronto so badly that they could taste it.

In fact, Andretti was so sure a deal was in the works that he told Blue Jays president Paul Godfrey at last spring's IRL St. Petersburg street race that the league would be coming to Toronto before long.

Now, unless Andretti, et al, fold up their tents in the middle of the night and sneak off to join Champ Car, that ain't gonna happen.

One time a few years ago, when it looked like the IRL had the upper hand in this war, Tony George said that he took his "hammer to the office every day.''

He'd better start using it, or Kalkhoven and Champ Car are soon going to rule the roost.

You can bet that if the situation was reversed, Kevin Kalkhoven would have used his — long ago.

Death to IRL!!! The CART-IRL split was the most damaging thing that could've been done to open-wheel racing in the U.S. It's made a mockery out of both of them and lost major prestige for the U.S. on the international scene. It was such a fiasco that allowed a grassroots, low-cost form of racing to become the most popular: NASCAR! http://www.gururacing.com/imagesmisc/graemlins/graemlin-puking.gif

If Jimmie Johnson wins at Charlotte again I will be convinced that NASCAR is fixed just like wrasslin'. Lowes car last four times at Lowes Motor Speedway? Wheres the money?