Classic & Vintage - Tied and soldered/glued spokes

Jobst Brandt says it's a complete waste. Peter White recommends it for his wheels and charges $40 per wheel to do it.

My PX10 came with tied and soldered spokes from the factory. When I built clinchers for it, I tied and epoxied the spokes. I just coudn't see adding lead my wheels and epoxy is easier than soldering. I cut it all off a few years ago when I replaced some spokes. I couldn't feel any difference, but I want to retie the spokes just because I like the vintage look of it.

What guage wire should I use? How many wraps?

Does anybody besides Peter White still believe this practice is worthwhile?

If you can't feel any difference, then the wire gauge and number of wraps is irrelevant. Just do what it takes to get the "look" you want. There is one practical aspect of tied and soldered spokes. It eliminates the opportunity for a broken spoke to flail around and cause more damage or a crash. You've already experienced the downside of a broken spoke that has been tied and soldered. So, does the aesthetic appeal and potential damage reduction outweigh the inconvenience when a spoke breaks? Only you can answer that.

Jobst Brandt is a mechanical engineer who is also an experienced cyclist. Not to discount the experience of Peter White, but in my experience as a practicing engineer for over 20 years, the scientific approach of applied physics (very nearly a definition of engineering) COMBINED WITH practical experience wins out over "experience" alone, every time. I bought his book when it first came out (I was an engineering student at the time), and have built wheels from it. His argument against soldering is sound, and convincing from an engineering standpoint.

my track wheels all were tied and soldered and lasted for years. tried it on a pair of road wheels back in 80, a pr I laced in crow's foot. Unusually harsh! They lasted until a huge crash in the NCO. Don't believe itz a great idea for anyhting but the smoothest of surfaces. Even racing on Kissena with them was a jarring experience - T-Town was much better. I think I still have one wheel on the trackbike thatz soldered, need to make a matching set.
Gauge? thin but not too thin _ I donno , I'm guessing the stuff we used was about 18-20, maybe a bit thinner. 2 wraps and a twist.
Solder is WAY quicker than epoxy! you can solder all the wraps in under 2 minutes and getting it off is a snap.
on a track bike you can really feel the difference in wheels under sprint loads. I'm quite certain that a proper solder wouldn;t weigh any more than the needed amount of epoxy.
Worthwhile? pretty cool on a track machine, I'd say. Necessary? If you have legs like Jerry Ash or the Woz.

Tied & soldered spokes were somewhat popular in the 1960s, but I haven't seen any in years. For me personally, the effort does not justify the unproven benefit. I build my wheels in a conventional 3X pattern, period.

IMO, engineering is an overrated field. Nevertheless, tying and soldering spokes seems to me to prevent the normal adjustments required, despite the fact that it's theoretically supposed to prevent or limit the need for these adjustments...personally, I wouldn't go there in the first place...

Jobst Brandt says it's a complete waste. Peter White recommends it for his wheels and charges $40 per wheel to do it.
My PX10 came with tied and soldered spokes from the factory. When I built clinchers for it, I tied and epoxied the spokes... I couldn't feel any difference, but I want to retie the spokes just because I like the vintage look of it.
What guage wire should I use? How many wraps?
Does anybody besides Peter White still believe this practice is worthwhile?

So Dirtdrop, it seems like we've all missed your mark and Q's. You didn't ask about engineers or engineering, you didn't ask what kind of ride to expect, you didn't ask what pattern to use. Yet thatz what you got. And contrary to priests of some doctrinal camp, the bike universe, including the vintage galaxy, is broader than 3x only or tube decals at the seat cluster or any one narrow thing.

A PX10 with tied and epoxied spokes is prolly a very cool lookin bike! And if you (and Peter White) like tied spokes and you don't experience any detrimental effects of consequence; well then its all good.
Period
And since I have a few nice wheelsets just sittin around and lookin all the same, I really should take a set and tie and solder it (and also get my trackbike done)
And when you get your's done maybe we can compare pics, cause I'll prolly have my set done also.
so thanks for the reminder of some cool cycling ideas.
worthwhile? you bet period

Randya, you better start the long, painful crawl back to your cave. Or better yet, ride back on your wooden bike hacked out of a tree with a sharp stone. Without engineers (and all the ingenious folks that just didn't get the chance to go through the program), that's about the best you can do. Oh, by the way, dump your computer too.

Randya, you better start the long, painful crawl back to your cave. Or better yet, ride back on your wooden bike hacked out of a tree with a sharp stone. Without engineers (and all the ingenious folks that just didn't get the chance to go through the program), that's about the best you can do. Oh, by the way, dump your computer too.
Let me guess, You're an engineer? :rolleyes:

I just couldn't resist. Nothing personal. Oh, your question? I'll incriminate myself with the answer.

But I will admit, it was "off topic."

It seems that only cyclezen understands where I'm coming from.

The wire guage and number of wraps is important because I'm trying to pull off an authentic vintage look. If I was just trying to stiffen the wheels, it wouldn't matter much. When I did it 30 years ago, I picked wire that looked like the factory wire and used the same number of wraps. I don't have factory tied wheels to look at now. I do remember the the best match was copper wire I pulled from stranded speaker cables.

Dirtdrop,

Thin guage 22 to 28 I would say.
No more than 3 turns, wire ends tucked
into the wraps (does that make sense?)
I prefer solder (and I have an iron). The regular
stuff works fine don't need the silver solder (audiophile
quality).
Solder takes a shine nicely with the likes of simichrome.

marty