Road Cycling - 631 vs. 853 steel

hi
can smeone educate me as to the difference between REYNOLDS 631 and 853 steel frames. which is considered better??
thanks...michael t.

better is relative.both are the same alloy.Both are air hardening after welding.853 is heatreated, and stronger.Being stronger allows it to be built into a lighter frame,everything else being equal.There are lots of 853 tubesets around,some being cheaper and heavier than others.Don't buy the hype about 853 being the best or always better.A bad frame can be built with it just as any other.

With that being said I would say that most 853 frames from reputable companies are lighter and stronger. I ride a Lemond Zurich which is 853 and I love it. The frame becomes part of your body as you ride.

Only the main triangle of the Lemond is 853.

That maybe true but the Zurich is light, responsive and fun to ride so that is all I care about. If the seat stays and chain stays are 631 then they are the same alloy just not heat treated.

I have heard this about the Zurich, however I'm waiting on an e-mail response from Lemond to verify it.

I've heard that it's not really a weight or strength thing.. The 853 alloy is better suited to TIG welding, necessary since lugs are rarely used these days.

rear stays in the zurich are 725.

631 being air hardening is just as suitable for tig welding as 853.Both gain strength in the process rather than loosng it as non air hardening steels do.

Hmm... I have a mountain bike made out of Reynolds 725. How does the ride quality differ from 853? Is 725 more resilient? I'm aware of the difference in manufacture.

This is a quote from Lemond about the Zurich's and above.

"Thanks for your email. The Zurich is all 853, frame and stays. Where did you
read otherwise? We do use the 853, 525 combination on some of our much lower
priced Lemonds.

-------------------------------------
Steve Swenson
Trek Tech Support/ Warranty
steve_swenson@trekbike.com"

Hopefully this will end this argument. The Buenos Aires and below are 853 and 525 and the Zurich and above are 853 until you get into the TI bikes.

the difference between 525 & 853 on a 58cm frame size is 1.8 lbs. i ride a 525 with ultegra and can not imagine a more pleasurable ride on steel, riding flat or hills.

If memory serves me, one is a chrome-molybdenum steel allow, whereas the other is a manganese-molybdenum steel alloy. Can't remember which is which, tho. Check the Reynolds website??

Pokey,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Zurich is full 853. That email seems to confirm it.

Aparently people at Lemond don't seem to know.Their Catalog says the 'mainframe' is 853. Others have made the same inquiry to Lemond over the argument and goten the 853/525 story. That is where my comment came from as I wrote it in the catalog for reference.Their older catalogs use to state what the front and rear was made of.The comment about 'much lower priced' aparently covers every thing below the zurich,as they all use the older 853 designer select/525 tubes(again from lemond),where the zurich and MJ use the 853 Pro tubes. The decal on ones bike may be the tipoff it it says 853 main tubes or something similar,implying the rear triangle to be something else. Their 2000 catalog had 2 colums,1 for mainframe description, and another below it for stays decription. Current catalog only has a coulmn for mainframe description.Deception by omission?

D*ALEX.....631 is the SAME as 853,except that it is NOT heattreated. 753 and 531 are the heattreated and non heattreated manganeese-moly tubes.

OK well besides the lemond arguement here is the data from the Reynolds website:
http://www.reynolds-cycle.com/internet/english/prodrange/steel/steel.htm
You can also click on technical for more info on differences between the two tubesets.

Pokey,
Lemond's catalog for 2002 says full 853 and their website says 853 Pro. If you look at the BA it says 853 Select which is the mixture.

I have never read anywhere other than these forums that the Zurich was anything other than full 853. Maybe some of the older models where a mix.

It's a great bike and like I said before that is all that matters to me. It does seem like this forum is full of people that are set on bashing some mfg's whether it is true or not instead helping the people writing in for advice.

As far as heat-treating and hardening of the tubing goes-doesn't the frame manufacturer of the Zurich anneal the frame after welding? Wouldn't this essentially obliterate any hardening/heat treating of the tubing? Why would a hardened tube be wanted, anyway? Hardening usually is accompanied by brittleness and corrossivity.

D*alex Nope. Aluminum frames undergo different hettreating (annealing)process after welding some more complex than others depending on the alloy.Not steel.

D*Alex,
You need to go to Reynolds site and read about the 853 tubing. It actually gets stronger at the point of weld it cools.

Gabiker..........my apologies.You are quite likely right. Reading the whole catalog reveals that only 853 is mentioned with the 853 pro tubeset in the MJ and Zurich.The select tubeset mentions 853 and 525. Prior to the 853 pro tubeset,2000 for example, the catalog says the Zurich and and BA were 853/725 and the Tourmalet was all 525.As you say, in actual use it likely makes litle or no difference.BTW.No bashing intended.I like Lemonds,but keeping track of what they are built of is no easy chore as in 97 some were Reynolds tubing,some were True Temper. The MJ has been CF,steel and Al.Materials change,but not the model name.Maybe that's the price of progress,or too few names to play with?

I agree it is almost impossible to keep up with them. I also think there is way to much made out of weight. The strongest rider in our club rides an old C-Dale that is pretty heavy and he can smoke any of the guys on there new TI bikes.

The main thing is to find a bike that fits and ride it. I do think there is a big difference in the feel of materials, but that is up to the person riding it. If steel felt the best to everyone and was the best then we would all be riding steel or aluminum or ti or on and on and on.

I say just ride....:beer: