View Full Version : Low-racers for street use - how dangerous?
FarHorizon
10-23-05, 07:25 PM
The aerodynamics of low racers make them attractive to me. How dangerous are they (low racers, not aerodynamics) for street use? Obviously, low racers aren't for heavy traffic, but with a "slow moving vehicle triangle" on the rear, wouldn't they be safe for less-traveled roads?
If low-racers are NOT considered safe by youse guys, what seat height becomes acceptable from a traffic safety standpoint?
BlazingPedals
10-23-05, 08:26 PM
I ride mine a lot on rural roads - it's my primary bike for club rides. No flag, no triangle. I've had very few problems with cars - in fact fewer than when I'm riding my taller bents.
FarHorizon
10-23-05, 08:34 PM
I ride mine a lot on rural roads...
Hi Blaze! Might I ask what make and model you liked and why?
BlazingPedals
10-23-05, 08:56 PM
Hi Blaze! Might I ask what make and model you liked and why?
As you noted, a lowracer is considerably faster than a 'standard' bent like my V-Rex. That was the appeal for me, too. I got a Baron. When I got it, it was the lightest lowracer available, and the only one with over-the-fork chain routing. But 27 pounds isn't considered light anymore AND I've dropped the chain :) . I'm sure my next bent will be lighter, but until my budget allows another, this one works fine.
http://www.biketcba.org/TRICORR/baron3.jpg
I should add that because it makes the miles melt away, it's also my choice for tours. This pic was taken last year on BRAT (Bike Ride Across Tennessee.)
I have been using my "quasi-lowracer" a HP Velotechnik Speedmachine, for commuting for the past 6 weeks or so. I ride in traffic, so far without incident. I think that you have to be more defensive and thoughtful on a lowracer than a DF or taller bike. I try to be aware of any situations that might make me less visible to cagers and act accordingly. Althought we are less VISIBLE I think that we are more NOTICABLE, if you see what I mean. Many cyclists say that a driver will look right at them but not see them.
To increase visibility, I bought one of those flag things, took the flag off and replaced it with two long red ribbons. The ribbons are in continual motion and seem to be more attentioin getting than a still flag thing.
Magilla Gorilla
10-24-05, 12:54 AM
As you noted, a lowracer is considerably faster than a 'standard' bent like my V-Rex. That was the appeal for me, too. I got a Baron. When I got it, it was the lightest lowracer available, and the only one with over-the-fork chain routing. But 27 pounds isn't considered light anymore AND I've dropped the chain :) . I'm sure my next bent will be lighter, but until my budget allows another, this one works fine.
http://www.biketcba.org/TRICORR/baron3.jpg
I should add that because it makes the miles melt away, it's also my choice for tours. This pic was taken last year on BRAT (Bike Ride Across Tennessee.)
Nice Baron John.
My Aero weighs in at under 22 lbs. climbs well and I believe would out coast Johns Baron the way he has it setup on a coast down test. Matter of fact Rich Pinto has had numerous coast downs with many Baron owners and has never been out coasted on his Aero in a properly conducted test.
I just feel that the fastest practicle bikes on the market are made by Bacchetta and that the dual big wheel desigh is just the way to go for rural and city roads both. But to each his own.
I would have to point out the RAAM victory by Bacchetta over the NoCom team. And of course Jim Kerns 490 mile ultra in 24 hours of team Bacchetta. You simply can not ignor this stuff anymore. And I think more will be on the way next season. We will see. so keep promoting your lowracers its your right.
They certianly have there place in a track environment and inside of a streamliner.
Magilla Gorilla
BlazingPedals
10-24-05, 05:34 AM
Nice Baron John.
My Aero weighs in at under 22 lbs. climbs well and I believe would out coast Johns Baron... so keep promoting your lowracers its your right.
Magilla Gorilla
FarHorizon asked about lowracers, not to get a Bacchetta commercial. Yes we know you like Bacchetta. Not surprising since you're on the Team (or were, at least.)
Trsnrtr
10-24-05, 06:46 AM
I live on the edge of a metropolitan area of about 350,000. I've been riding my Baron through the "fringe", as it were for the last 400 miles or so. I haven't noticed any more danger than on my highracers and have taken it anywhere that I 've taken them. Primarily though, most of my riding is on rural roads.
-Dennis
P.S. On coast downs, MG may be partially right. I have a couple friends with highracers that outcoast me on my Baron up to a point depending upon steepness, length of hill and wind. However, the Baron blows them away on steep descents.
FarHorizon
10-24-05, 06:50 AM
I also liked the Bacchettas and will be riding both lowracers and the Bacchetta Aero before making a buying decisionl (provided I can find a dealer that stocks both in my size...).
In theory, it would seem that the lower drag profile of the low racer would make for higher speed at a given output (all other things like weight and rolling resistance being equal). Of course, in the real world, other things are never exactly equal.
Nevertheless, the 21 pound carbon low racer from Poland should (at least in theory) give quite a run for the money to the more conventional Bacchetta designs.
Magilla Gorilla
10-24-05, 11:55 AM
FarHorizon asked about lowracers, not to get a Bacchetta commercial. Yes we know you like Bacchetta. Not surprising since you're on the Team (or were, at least.)
OK John,
Sorry about the commercial but I had another interesting experience on my DF bike with a dufus motorist.
On a lowracer I would have been dead. On the Aero I might have avoided the situation but the DF bike got me out of trouble because I could hop up on the curb.
Commuting on a lowracer in uban traffic one has a death wish. The Higher seat bikes just make more sense for this type of riding. Again to each his own. But I think facts speak for them selves. I will leave it at that John.
MG
Ah, but not everyone can bunny-hop a curb, especially in an emergency without preparation. I know I can't. I probably would have been creamed in your situation, and I ride a DF right now...
Commuting on a lowracer in uban traffic one has a death wish. The Higher seat bikes just make more sense for this type of riding. MG
I don't have a death wish. I'm a careful and safety conscious cyclist.
As far as a highracer making more sense, I think that there are tradeoffs for both recumbent philosophies. In my experience as an all year commuter for the last 4 years, a cyclist is far more likely to wreck as a result of pilot error (falling all by yourself after miscalculating a bump, slippery spot, not unclipping in time, and so on) than with an encounter with a car. A fall from a lowracer style bike will not result in the type of injuries that will happpen from a high racer or a DF. In the 4 years I have commuted I have done 0 bunny hops evading cars and the conflicts that I HAVE had were avoidable with defensive and common sense decision making and maneuvering.
On the other hand, a highracer will offer better visibility for you and make you more visible to cars in some situations. On the other, there are situations that a cager will not see ANY bike (like when you are in a line of traffic like SUVs or buses or the like). Obviously, when you are in such a position, you must be very alert, use your spider-senses, and plan accordingly. For me on my lowracer, I am in more situations like that than before, but believe the risks are managable.
squeaker
10-25-05, 04:20 AM
One situation that I'd not thought about before I started with the Mistral was a 4x4 backing out of an angled parking slot next to other 4x4's - that is the driver was having to look both over his nearside rear quarter and through other vehicles (more of the dreaded 4x4's) to see back up the traffic lane as to whether anything was coming. (If there had been a van next to the 4x4 he would probably have been really cautious backing out into a traffic lane, but as he could 'see' through the other vehicles, probably not in this case.) On my DF I could look the driver in the eyes; on the Mistral I'm not so sure, and I don't think a flag would have helped either, unless it was HUGE.
Guess it comes down to the 'spider senses' and planning ahead?
One situation that I'd not thought about before I started with the Mistral was a 4x4 backing out of an angled parking slot next to other 4x4's - that is the driver was having to look both over his nearside rear quarter and through other vehicles (more of the dreaded 4x4's) to see back up the traffic lane as to whether anything was coming. (If there had been a van next to the 4x4 he would probably have been really cautious backing out into a traffic lane, but as he could 'see' through the other vehicles, probably not in this case.) On my DF I could look the driver in the eyes; on the Mistral I'm not so sure, and I don't think a flag would have helped either, unless it was HUGE.
Guess it comes down to the 'spider senses' and planning ahead?
Absolutely! :)
An advantage a cyclist has over any car is an unobstructed view and better ability to hear what is happening around you. Riding a lowracer requies that you anticipate a situation like you describe above and act accordingly. I have found that I need to be prepared to give up the right of way more often simply because there is a risk that I wasn't seen at all or on time. Not that big a deal, and it's kinda exciting and "zen" to try and be hyper aware of what is happening around you.
lowracer1
10-25-05, 06:20 PM
Good grief. You guys are making way too much out of this. It doesn't matter what you ride on the road. If a car is going to hit you, you are going to be smushed. I don't see any difference in what bike I ride on the road. Anticipate what is behind you or in front of you. How does being 10" lower than another bike make it any different? Cars can see a beer can in the road and avoid it. Whether you are on a high racer or lowracer makes absolutely no difference. You are bigger than a beer can and smaller than an elephant. If you don't see the beer can in the road, then maybe you shouldn't be driving a car at all. If you can't see the elephant in the road, then maybe its because you're driving in north america.
Magilla Gorilla
10-25-05, 11:41 PM
Lowracers are for track riding period.
My opine. The Highracer bikes from Bacchetta are proven fast and are visible.
The Aero is faster than most metal and probably any metal manufactured lowracer. I think this is a fact with all the lowracer zelots migrating to ultra low laid back seat carbon models. Hardly a commuter.
We have new people here interested in bents and I will tell them the truth like it or not.
I will post a pic on my Blog of the absolute height differences of a Highracer vs a lowracer. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.
People here are intelligent and can make up there own minds.
Magilla Gorilla
squeaker
10-26-05, 04:29 AM
Anticipate what is behind you or in front of you.
My 'bent has a rear view mirror (for obvious reasons), my DF bikes do not, hence I am much more aware what's behind me when I'm on the 'bent. And I like the beer can argument :)
I like the elephant argument.
Lowracers are for track riding period.
If that is true, why do many of them come with shock absorbers?
lowracer1
10-26-05, 02:57 PM
Lowracers are for track riding period.
My opine. The Highracer bikes from Bacchetta are proven fast and are visible.
The Aero is faster than most metal and probably any metal manufactured lowracer. I think this is a fact with all the lowracer zelots migrating to ultra low laid back seat carbon models. Hardly a commuter.
We have new people here interested in bents and I will tell them the truth like it or not.
I will post a pic on my Blog of the absolute height differences of a Highracer vs a lowracer. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.
People here are intelligent and can make up there own minds.
Magilla Gorilla
Yes and I'm sure everyone else here are intelligent enough to know to ignore 90% of your posts.
No mention on the Kevin Magilla Tom Swift blog that the rider on the Cobra was recently hit by a car on his Bachetta Basso commuting to work. He was never hit by any car on his low bike or his Baron when he commuted in the city.
Kevin Magilla Tom Swift and his theory of what is a safe recumbent is foolish like both of his blogs.
http://www.magillagorillakk.blogspot.com/
http://highracers.blogspot.com/
Buy a used ReBike with a flag and mirror if you want to be safe on the road. Wear a football helmet if you want to protect your head.
God Bless All,
Mooky
BentBob
10-30-05, 08:35 PM
I agree that safety has more to do with the person than the bike. And if you really want to stretch the envelope. I also think we are like mobile magnets that tend to attract to us situations that respond to our beliefs.
Think safe, feel safe and enjoy your ride!
Bob
Magilla Gorilla
10-31-05, 01:58 AM
Yes and I'm sure everyone else here are intelligent enough to know to ignore 90% of your posts.
Chris,
Would you like to race?
Me on An Aero and you on any unfaired lowracer of your choice,
Big mouth but no balls.
Your Bud got his behind handed to him a couple of years ago.
And to lowracers and racing why don't you come to chicago and race against AA or Gary Toy?
I think I know the answer to that one.
I can always put up some posts about you on my Blog but I guess why should I bother considering the source. I Have never insulted you in public. My insults to you are always in response to your
bull****. so bring it on Chris....
MG
BentBob
10-31-05, 08:55 AM
There is a skill that the majority of men on this board seem to have developed. It doesn't use confrontation as the primary method of communication. Some of us have learned to compete for the fun of it without the need to ridicule each other. It honors and respects the "real" man in all of us. Thank you fellow men for feeling so secure in yourself that we can stop competing and simply enjoy each others company.
Bob
BlazingPedals
10-31-05, 08:57 AM
Chris,
Would you like to race?
Me on An Aero and you on any unfaired lowracer of your choice,
Big mouth but no balls.
Your Bud got his behind handed to him a couple of years ago.
And to lowracers and racing why don't you come to chicago and race against AA or Gary Toy?
I think I know the answer to that one.
I can always put up some posts about you on my Blog but I guess why should I bother considering the source. I Have never insulted you in public. My insults to you are always in response to your
bull****. so bring it on Chris....
MG
So, apparently it's OK for you to challenge everything we post, but if someone dares to be offended you really get abusive. This might be a good time to claim that you didn't make the post, (for all the good it'll do,) because you're not looking very sane at the moment.
The next time medical issues keep me off my bike for several months, I'll be sure to stay away from Wisconsin. I went there expecting an easy weekend to celebrate my return to biking, and for my reward I've had you harping at me for two and a half years. I don't give a whit about your private lowracer vs highracer war, and I really don't care whether you're faster than me or slower than me. Neither do any of the other forum members. So dry up and get a life!
lowracer1
10-31-05, 07:16 PM
Amen to that.
bentrox!
10-31-05, 11:58 PM
Does anyone know how Kevin manages to keep that chip on his shoulder? Quite a feat in the reclined position. :p
Trsnrtr
11-01-05, 03:28 PM
All I know, is that fun on my Baron currently exceeds my feeling of danger on the road. If KK or anyone else feels scared on the road on a low bike, then by all means, ride a high one, get a flag, blinkie lights, a follow car, or ride only on bike paths.
Personally, there's room in my stable for a highracer and a lowracer and they seem to get along fine. :)
Some people have the crazynotion the most dangerous recumbents are trikes. Because they are low. Some trikes are fast and about as dangerous as the person riding it.
Kevins web site has a picture of a tricycle going faster than someone on a bike path.
http://highracers.blogspot.com/2005/10/trike-is-faster-than-slowgo-walker.html
I have a stable with 2 ReBikes. One is old and rusty and one is broken and used for spare parts. All bikes can get along just fine with rusty ReBikes. A can of oil will make anything on old wheels work like new. :) :)
Mooky
All I know, is that fun on my Baron currently exceeds my feeling of danger on the road. If KK or anyone else feels scared on the road on a low bike, then by all means, ride a high one, get a flag, blinkie lights, a follow car, or ride only on bike paths.
Personally, there's room in my stable for a highracer and a lowracer and they seem to get along fine. :)
Trsnrtr
11-01-05, 07:58 PM
Kevins web site has a picture of a tricycle going faster than someone on a bike path.http://highracers.blogspot.com/2005/10/trike-is-faster-than-slowgo-walker.html
Mooky
Mooky, I remember the day that picture was taken but I don't remember the trike. Then it dawned on me; I was so worried about keeping my highracer upright that the trike must have gone blasting by me!
mattzees
11-01-05, 09:37 PM
I don't really understand what's happening here. Does someone have an ax to grind with Bachetta or highracers in general? What gives?
Magilla Gorilla
11-01-05, 11:51 PM
So, apparently it's OK for you to challenge everything we post, but if someone dares to be offended you really get abusive. This might be a good time to claim that you didn't make the post, (for all the good it'll do,) because you're not looking very sane at the moment.
The next time medical issues keep me off my bike for several months, I'll be sure to stay away from Wisconsin. I went there expecting an easy weekend to celebrate my return to biking, and for my reward I've had you harping at me for two and a half years. I don't give a whit about your private lowracer vs highracer war, and I really don't care whether you're faster than me or slower than me. Neither do any of the other forum members. So dry up and get a life!
John,
I met you and had a couple of beers with you so I wish you well on any health issues you have.
I am not challenging you here. I just think that the Highracer design or whatever you want to call it has been proven to be fast.
And there are a couple of three monkey island types that are still at it with there fake blog.
I have lots and lots of pictures from my visits to MI and would be very happy to place a picture with a name to the people responsible for every site about recumbents being ruined on the internet.
My only gripe I have with you and Chris Evans is your lack of respect for the dual 26 design and your absolute silence on its success at RAAM and other events.
So Low bike or dual 26 it matters not what you ride.
Keep riding and get your health back thats all that matters in the long run.
I wish you well and good health John...
MG
bentrox!
11-02-05, 12:08 AM
I don't really understand what's happening here. Does someone have an ax to grind with Bachetta or highracers in general? What gives?
Some folks are so intent on proving their viewpoint that the low/high racer argument is no longer as interesting as how high one can raise levels of testosterone and blood pressure.
:p
Trsnrtr
11-02-05, 05:20 AM
I don't really understand what's happening here. Does someone have an ax to grind with Bachetta or highracers in general? What gives?
That site comes from a part of the world where common rules of the Universe are suspended.
Two of the pilfered pics on there are mine including the one taken from the cockpit of my Aero last Winter. The trike was added to appear to be riding in front of me. Hey, it was a funny rendition of my pic, so I'll roll with it. ;)
Magilla Gorilla
11-05-05, 12:54 AM
All I have to say to all of you is that Trek is the leader in the building of unfaired bicycles and speed. Just look at what Lance did in this years tour.
I think that I will probably end my isolation from the DF world and buy a carbon Trek and do short fast intense DF group rides for exersise.
I find the company much better than what is in the 'bent world right now.
I will of course keep my Aero. It ain't worth much anyway so why sell it? I will still ride it some on absolutely solo rides where no DF rider will be anywhere in site.
Trek carbon the absolute fastest unfaired carbon bicycles in the known universe....
Magilla
I am curious about your "cockpit" post. Why do some recumbent riders call a seat a cockpit. Recumbent are not fast like airplanes and they do not ride at high altitude with a parachute.
So where does the recumbent term cockpit come from?
Mooky
That site comes from a part of the world where common rules of the Universe are suspended.
Two of the pilfered pics on there are mine including the one taken from the cockpit of my Aero last Winter. The trike was added to appear to be riding in front of me. Hey, it was a funny rendition of my pic, so I'll roll with it. ;)
mattzees
11-06-05, 09:09 AM
I am curious about your "cockpit" post. Why do some recumbent riders call a seat a cockpit. Recumbent are not fast like airplanes and they do not ride at high altitude with a parachute.
So where does the recumbent term cockpit come from?
Mooky
"Cockpit" is used on a DF bike to describe the distance from the handlebars to the seat post. This definition varies by manufacturer, and so "cockpit" has come to mean the general position the rider has to be in with relation to the bike. Alternatively, it can be used to describe the space the rider occupies on the bike. Like if the cockpit is too small, you may need a larger frame, or riser bars, or a swept back seat post, etc.
Websters defines cockpit as
1 a : a pit or enclosure for cockfights b : a place noted for especially bloody, violent, or long-continued conflict
2 obsolete : the pit of a theater
3 : a compartment in a sailing warship used as quarters for junior officers and for treatment of the wounded in an engagement
4 : a space or compartment in a usually small vehicle (as a boat, airplane, or automobile) from which it is steered, piloted, or driven -- see AIRPLANE illustration
No mention of the distance the rider has to be in with relation to the bike. #4 defines cockpit as a small enclosed compartment on a boat, plane or automobile.
Maybe recumbent riders fantasize they are flying an airplane when they are in their cockpit. Trsnrtr does not look like he is sitting in any airplane cockpit in the photo on the highracer website.
Mooky
"Cockpit" is used on a DF bike to describe the distance from the handlebars to the seat post. This definition varies by manufacturer, and so "cockpit" has come to mean the general position the rider has to be in with relation to the bike. Alternatively, it can be used to describe the space the rider occupies on the bike. Like if the cockpit is too small, you may need a larger frame, or riser bars, or a swept back seat post, etc.
mattzees
11-06-05, 04:02 PM
Now we're into semantics, but in film parlance, if I asked you for a "pigeon", you'd get me a "nipple" drywall-screwed onto a "pancake", which is a type of an "applebox", thinner than a "quarter apple".
Look in the dictionary and you will find all those terms, but none of them will pertain to the objects I'm talking about.
And yes, I have been known to zip around town playing Fighter Pilot on by bike.
--M
Maybe recumbent riders fantasize they are flying an airplane when they are in their cockpit. Trsnrtr does not look like he is sitting in any airplane cockpit in the photo on the highracer website.
Mooky
You mean you don't? Finally, a weakness with the rebike!
An F16 can go 1,350 mph. No recumbent can go that fast around any town. The fastest my steel ReBike can go down a mountain switch back is 75 miles per hour.
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/59/pilot.html
Mooky
Now we're into semantics, but in film parlance, if I asked you for a "pigeon", you'd get me a "nipple" drywall-screwed onto a "pancake", which is a type of an "applebox", thinner than a "quarter apple".
Look in the dictionary and you will find all those terms, but none of them will pertain to the objects I'm talking about.
And yes, I have been known to zip around town playing Fighter Pilot on by bike.
--M
An F16 can go 1,350 mph. No recumbent can go that fast around any town. The fastest my steel ReBike can go down a mountain switch back is 75 miles per hour.
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/59/pilot.html
Mooky
Haha, I'm not saying that my bent IS an F-whatever, I'm saying that I feel like I'm in one on my bent. I'm sorry that your Rebike doesn't give you that sensation.... maybe you should consider a Bachetta? :D
bentrox!
11-07-05, 09:40 AM
Now we're into semantics, but in film parlance, if I asked you for a "pigeon", you'd get me a "nipple" drywall-screwed onto a "pancake", which is a type of an "applebox", thinner than a "quarter apple".
Look in the dictionary and you will find all those terms, but none of them will pertain to the objects I'm talking about.
--M
Webster doesn't refer to any kind of bicycle under "bent" or "recumbent" for that matter. Mooky should look up "vernacular".
Here is what real cockpits looks like.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/cockpits/f-16_cockpit.asp
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_photos_album72.html
Not the same as the view over a recumbent handlebar with a bell and mirror.
Mooky
Webster doesn't refer to any kind of bicycle under "bent" or "recumbent" for that matter. Mooky should look up "vernacular".
Here is what real cockpits looks like.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/cockpits/f-16_cockpit.asp
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_photos_album72.html
Not the same as the view over a recumbent handlebar with a bell and mirror.
Mooky
You mean that is not the same as the view over a Rebike handlebar, right? :D
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