Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Because I'm listening...

OK, the first picture shows outside of two polished, the current raw heat treated "copper looking" inside, and the bead blasted backside. The bead blasting takes away that copper finish that many don't like.
2nd shot is of the beadblasted back and polished front. Sorry, these are hard to shoot well.

Spike Lateen, can you be more specific about what you saw that was "sub par" on the finished cogs?
It matters to us.

Teiaperigosa, your hubs shipped to Bike Works NYC and will arrive tomorrow. We were out of the double fixed rears for about a week. Not because of cogs, different machines...

To answer some questions.
The 2nd batch of 17s, 18, and 15s in 1/8 are shipping out to most the shops that had orders in. These will have the copper colored backside.
Yes, polishing the backside would take more time and add more money. Polishing is hard, messy, time consuming work.
Bead blasting the backside will cost us more but not you.
"Unfinished" isn't something we want to do. They would still cost a little more that the EAI due to the material and manufacturing costs. So for a couple bucks more you get a nice finish on the exposed part of the cog that really separates it from the other cogs out there.
There are many forms of SS and cro-mo, the SS we use would be softer than most cro-mo without the 3 heat treats we put it through. We chose the material and processes for best aesthetic and best durability.

I'd like feedback on the finish on the backside from those that care to weigh in.

Thanks,
Brent

Personally, I like the copper finish. Makes it a little unique. Besides, you don't really see the backside of a cog too much anyway, right?

tristan

And I prefer the blasted one. Thanks for posting the pictures Brent.

i don't care either way, as teadoggg said, you can barely see the back once the cog's installed.

(but i think it's pretty cool how pw has responded to the criticism/discussion here).

I concur. I think anyone who cares significantly about what the backside of their cogs look like has problems that go beyond anything you can address, Brent.

Like always, it's great to see industry-folk posting. It's awesome that you're not only looking for feedback, but responding to it as well (in a public forum nonetheless). That is great. And you should know that it doesn't go lost on the freaks that haunt this specific forum.

I know I for one, when financial circumstance permit, plan to buy Phil and Velocity, specifically because you guys have posted here (the good rep and paying living wages/american-made thing doesn't hurt either...) and you've shown that you care. That, to me, is more important than saving a few bucks.

Carry on.

J

I know I for one, when financial circumstance permit, plan to buy Phil and Velocity, specifically because you guys have posted here (the good rep and paying living wages/american-made thing doesn't hurt either...) and you've shown that you care. That, to me, is more important than saving a few bucks.


Done and doner.

http://static.flickr.com/5/10414272_cde9dfe0d1_o.jpg

I don't mind either copper or bead blasted. I think the difference is more understood with the copper as opposed to the beadblasted as that one would be more like, "Well, how come this side is silver but not polished?"

I like the copper because it sort of shows it's real roots despite it's shiny facade.

AND, big ups to PW and Brent.

P.S. If you're coming to the Meat N' Greet (http://bffg.absenter.org), you may get a chance to win one of these beauties (cogs that is)*.

*subject to eye of the beholder.

I think anyone who cares significantly about what the backside of their cogs look like has problems that go beyond anything you can address, Brent.


I'm sure that'll help Brent a lot. Good job throwing that in.

I think what (some) people are after is uniformity in the quality and appearance of the finish. The closer you can get to that, Brent, the more you will sell.

I'm sure that'll help Brent a lot. Good job throwing that in.

I think what (some) people are after is uniformity in the quality and appearance of the finish. The closer you can get to that, Brent, the more you will sell.

I'm definitely not going to fight about this. You're probably right, jrowe. But that doesn't change the fact that the uniformity issue is kind of an OCD thing -- like Brent said, two-polished sides would increase the selling price of an aleady expensive cog that, in all likelihood (and I know i'll get ***** for this) is no better than a Dura-Ace cog that costs 1/2 as much. That price point speaks to a very specific (fanatical ?) type of market. Most agree that a Phil hub is a bomb-proof workhorse that functions and lasts better than low to mid-range hubs. With the cogs, any improvement over DA or EAI would be marginal at best. Therefore, like I said in the beginning you're right. The uniformity is probably pretty important, as the market for this cog is very self-selected I think.

This doesn't change my original statement. Whether or not it was a helpful statement.

FYI: I came real close to just not posting this response as I don't want to start a petty volley back and forth and scare away an asset to the forum. Let's try to keep the comments constructive (which I think is what Jrowe's post was trying to tell me...in it's own unique, harsh-sounding way)

I am not a bling person, so the finish doesn't really matter to me. If I had to choose I would pick the shiny on both sides.

I do care about quality. When I think of Phil Wood stuff I think "I know it costs more now, but in the long run I won't have any problems and it will out last most stuff out there".

With that said, I can get an EAI for $30 and a DA for even less. I just ordered a 17T new Phil from Business Cycles for about $40. Is my Phil cog going to last longer than an either of these, or am I paying for bling?

Isn't the real issue of Phil vs. DA/EAI cogs the threading?
Doesn't Phil use a slightly different thread pitch that will "mate perfectly" with a Phil Cog? and (frequent) changing between DA and Phil cogs is not recommended?

or did i just pull this out of my ass?

Isn't the real issue of Phil vs. DA/EAI cogs the threading?
Doesn't Phil use a slightly different thread pitch that will "mate perfectly" with a Phil Cog? and (frequent) changing between DA and Phil cogs is not recommended?

or did i just pull this out of my ass?

I'd like to hear Brent's response to this one, too. I recall reading somewhere on here (and I think it was one of Brent's postings) that PW recommended using Dura-Ace cogs, and to definitely avoid Surlys (although I think they have, at least partially, addressed this issue with their latest batch). I'm running DA on my Phil currently, and had no problems with threading.

For the record, I prefer the bead-blasted back. I manhandled a PW cog at Yojimbo's this weekend, and the different color tone throws me off a bit.

But, as Naz has alluded to, I'd be more likely to shadowbox a Phil cog and keep it on my desk; I'm happy with DA.

Hi Brent,

when i was going around looking at some of the cog s to buy at LBS's I saw that there were nicks/cuts on the teeth that protruded from the beveled areas. Nicks/cuts are one thing, but it seemed that if these were large enough then the point to having the teeth so smoothly beveled would be pointless.

I don't think that these occured post production because the cuts looked like they were caused by machining rather than by handling (which would be some serious manhandling).

If I can get some photos in sometime this week from at least one of the LBS's (they will remain nameless) then I can email you what I saw (if they're still there).

Feel free to PM Brent. BTW, they one I got had a slight burr/protrusion that at the time didn't seem to be quality (ridewise)-affecting, and it wasn't. There was smooth engaging and releasing as the wheel rotated.

Oh yeah, I can't see the backside of my cog and finish has (as far as I can tell in so many years of cycling) not impaired the quality of the product for me (I'm not talking about appearance here). As for appearance, it was, to me, obvious that the finish (one side shiny, one side not) was intentional. And considering how so many other cogs out there (beyond track cycing) are not finished either on both sides or at all and how well they work I don't think that finishing on both sides is necessary. It would seem that in a business/marketing perspective you accomplished two things:
1.you gave the people that wanted the "bling" factor incentive to purchase some thing that would work for that application
2.you reduced the cost of an american made item by manufacturing this item in a way that provided the bling and still maintained the quality of the item associated with the company (although, with regards to some of the cogs that made it out of the factory with imperfections, this is questionable).

After all that said, as others have stated above, if the cog could be polished on both sides without adversely changing the cost (or better yet, without changing the cost at all) then it would be a nice incentive to buy these cogs for many people who were looking forward to trying them out. And, to also have a stricter quality control would be nice too as that it has been a while since I have seen any quality (as subjuctive as that is) bike or bike part manufacturer release anything that either cosmetically or physically not what many people would want on their baby.

Or, to quote baxtefer, "did I just pull this out of my ass?".

Isn't the real issue of Phil vs. DA/EAI cogs the threading?
Doesn't Phil use a slightly different thread pitch that will "mate perfectly" with a Phil Cog? and (frequent) changing between DA and Phil cogs is not recommended?

or did i just pull this out of my ass?

We've never seen or measured anything to indicate there is a problem with DA cogs other than a lack of larger sizes.
I'm not going to point fingers at other specific manufacturers, sorry if that seems chickensh!t
1.37 x24 tpi is the industry standard thread spec. Make sure that is the spec on the cog.
Thread the cog on by hand. If it starts to bind up at any point start checking stuff out.

Too thin, plating, and bad thread specs/tolerances are all problems we've seen strip our hubs. There have been 8 sent here in the last three years. In all cases we gave the owner a new hub in trade for the cog that was used when the hub was stripped.

Too thin is obvious. The lockring does not bottom on to the cog, when you skid stop the cog loosens with momentum and rips the lockring right off if there is no spacer used. If there is a spacer used it is just a gamble as to if the rider is strong enough to strip the mere four threads the cog grabs.

Plating increases the overall mass of the cog and threads. To make matters worse it tends to pool in the valley of the threads so when you install the cog it rounds the top off of the hub threads. We chased a few of these, then they were too "loose" indicating the specs had factored in the thickness of the plating but it had not been controlled well.

If the thread pitch or tolerances are off the cog will usually bind up. It is best to test this on the full length of a freewheel thread as the cogs will fully engage the thread. The binding will not be as evident on a fixed hub. The thread specs are the same.

All the manufacturers have to deal with these problems. For us it is the heat treat. Metal grows when it is heat treated. So we have to make sure that is factored in to the manufacturing specs.
On that note. Our metallurgist did some more work with our heat treater of 30+ years. If we do the final of the three heat treats in an endothermic atmosphere the cooper look will be gone. So the new ones will have the flat silver on the back and the polished front.
If the production run quantities go up enough top absorb some of the heat treat and laser marking costs we may polish the backside too. Otherwise it will raise the price.




when i was going around looking at some of the cog s to buy at LBS's I saw that there were nicks/cuts on the teeth that protruded from the beveled areas. Nicks/cuts are one thing, but it seemed that if these were large enough then the point to having the teeth so smoothly beveled would be pointless.

I don't think that these occured post production because the cuts looked like they were caused by machining rather than by handling (which would be some serious manhandling).

If I can get some photos in sometime this week from at least one of the LBS's (they will remain nameless) then I can email you what I saw (if they're still there).

Feel free to PM Brent. BTW, they one I got had a slight burr/protrusion that at the time didn't seem to be quality (ridewise)-affecting, and it wasn't. There was smooth engaging and releasing as the wheel rotated.

Are the "nick/cuts" on the front, back, or in the valley of the teeth?
I would appreciate if you would tell me what size and shop. Then I will know what batch it was from. I can't think of any reason why that would matter otherwise. brent at phil wood dot com.

Thanks,
Brent

Brent, I bought a rear hub from Preformance, but didn't get a lock ring. I've heard that they ALWAYS come together. Is that true? Should I go back and kick some @$$?

Brent, I bought a rear hub from Preformance, but didn't get a lock ring. I've heard that they ALWAYS come together. Is that true? Should I go back and kick some @$$?

Yep, all our hubs ship with lockrings. There is always the possibility that we didn't put it on, but I doubt that.
I would ask first, then check their bikes, then check their key rings, then email me your address...

Personally, I like the copper finish. Makes it a little unique. Besides, you don't really see the backside of a cog too much anyway, right?

tristan

I second this... makes the cog unique if it's not gonna be double sided polished


also... Brent, thanks for informing me that my hub was sent *rubbing hands together*...It DID arrive today...one more shipment within NYstate, and Imma be SET!
very cool to hear this coming from the manufacturer...and thanks also for the time put into clarifying questions and the like on this forum....

much appreciated

Brent, I can't afford your products, put simply. But your postings here have shown that you really have class. In my mind you're right up there with IRO, Velocity (which I can afford) and if I ever hit the bucks, there will most definitely be a pair of phils on my shiny new IRO bike with Velocity wheels LOL. Someday....

On that note. Our metallurgist did some more work with our heat treater of 30+ years. If we do the final of the three heat treats in an endothermic atmosphere the cooper look will be gone. So the new ones will have the flat silver on the back and the polished front.

Now that's responsiveness. Bravo!

OT//Hijack

Thanks for chiming in Brent. I am glad to see that not all industry people have been chased off.

//Back on topic

Classy responses Brent. Love manufacturers who respond positively to comments and critiscism. I want to buy your products even more now.

Besides, you don't really see the backside of a cog too much anyway, right?

tristan

Not unless you are a hipster that just sits and stares and takes pictures of your bike instead of riding the damn thing. Mine usually has chain lube and dirt all over it anyway. If it lasts long that's all that matters. If you want to bling it out get it gold plated and hang it on your wall.

PW kicks serious butt and nothing he puts out would be sub par. Thanks for what you do Brent!!

Yep, all our hubs ship with lockrings. There is always the possibility that we didn't put it on, but I doubt that.
I would ask first, then check their bikes, then check their key rings, then email me your address...

The problem is worse than that. You'd think that some employee just saw a chance for an unknowning consumer who was blinded by a shiny hub took off with it.

The issue is: Preformance in La Mesa California used to be a locally owned chain known as Bike USA San Diego. They were bought by Preformance. At the outset, I didn't want to go. But they had stand up customer service, and great mechanics, and the prices were good, if not the better there is. The guy who ordered the hub for me is stand up (Lee). Well.. sadly, cooperate of Performance put the locks on special orders making it SOO hard to order for this, and a bunch of things that it took him almost a month and a half to get it. Meanwhile, the shelves are getting full of blue Forte boxes. Thier store, thier rules, but they basically changed and it made it such that it became hard for me to shop there. Mainly, I was sticking with Lee and a handfull of good workers who also ride fixed. They know the hubs were a big purchase and a big deal.

Lee finally quit and went over to a Local Place (Adam's Ave Bike shop in Northpark: another Stand Up shop with awesome people). I asked for a PW front hub there and they had it in a week.

But, based upon thier (Performance Bike shop as a whole chain), I'm gonna call, rattle the chains, and ask for my part. The manufacturer (PW) shouldn't have to eat into thier margin of beer money because a retail place (preformance) became obstinate on specail orders. Performance will get me my lock ring, or I'll make sure they hate me by the time it's all said and done..

Brent: thanks for being a stand up group of folks. That's what *ahem* makes the country great. If anything, perhaps you could let them know you've heard how they are no longer supporting the cycling greater good by not making parts that are in a decently high level of demand available.

Thanks again,

William Karstens

Glad to see you like some input on your products Brent. I too love my hubs will soon adorn them with matching cogs.