But it would still be problematic to get laid in the back seat of either one.... :D
Actually, you can do pretty well on a date with a bike. Just ride out into the country with a blanket.... You do have to choose you date carefully. But I guess that's always true. :)

I was surprized that no one added their feelings about the news that Big Oil had the biggest gains, bigger then the top companies. I get apopleptic when I think about how we "the American (or is that Amerikan) public" bend over and take in the shorts. I am surprized there is no outrage no protests. I know it has been discussed on this forum. I know there isn't a lot "we" can do. I do my part in riding everywhere everyday. I am just crazed and wonder if I'm the only one.
No. You're certainly not the only one.

But as long as Joe Murkan has a roof over his head, food on his table and mindless entertainment to occupy his shrinking brain, there will be no revolution. Sad, perhaps, but true. :(

You guys are quick to jump on the people are so materialistic, etc. etc. bandwagon, but all the article is saying is that people notice cars, not that you must have an expensive fancy car to get a date. I mean they are marketing a Ford Fusion (whatever that is, I'm assuming it's not very fancy) in the article! The data just shows that most people are going to wonder what is wrong with you if you show up in a dirty beatup piece of crap. Kind of the same thing as if you showed up wearing dirty sweats for a date, or took a date back to your apartment and it was completely trashed.

If you don't have a car, that part of the impression isn't there, so a date can't assume one way or the other until they learn more about you. If part of what they learn is that you want them to jump on the handlebars to go out, that might not impress them. Just pick them up in a cab! Also, I think most people simply associate bicycles with grade school kids and that is why you gets some funny reactions, it isn't cars fault.

Also, if you don't like that simply move out of the wilderness and in to a big city! Most people I know here don't have cars and it isn't a problem like it would be somewhere else where you "need" a car to get around. Picking someone up in a cab, meeting somewhere, taking a train, walking, or even riding bikes if the date also enjoys riding is perfectly acceptable and doesn't reflect poorly on either party. Since cars aren't necessity here, you are instead judged by what neighborhood you live in though.

And my last point is that with surveys like this it reflects what most people think, not everyone. I know plenty of girls who would laugh out loud if a date tried to pick them up in a Lexus or something like that.

You guys are quick to jump on the people are so materialistic, etc. etc. bandwagon, but all the article is saying is that people notice cars, not that you must have an expensive fancy car to get a date. I mean they are marketing a Ford Fusion (whatever that is, I'm assuming it's not very fancy) in the article! The data just shows that most people are going to wonder what is wrong with you if you show up in a dirty beatup piece of crap. Kind of the same thing as if you showed up wearing dirty sweats for a date, or took a date back to your apartment and it was completely trashed.


The big deal perhaps is that cars ARE noticed. It is not like this is some ineluctable trait of being human. What people notice is exactly dependent on what they are exposed to by society. Take so called attractive physical traits. They vary from culture to culture and from decade to decade.

American car infatuation is something of a grevious thing. I can safely say that in other parts of the world cars are not as much of an issue. So, really, the seemingly benign fact that cars are so noticed does say something about American materialism.

The car culture makes me want to hurl, and how. But shallowness and vapidity is hardly the worst of it.

Maybe it's like Good Charlotte says (generalizing to be sure) in Boys & Girls,

"Girls don't like boys; girls like cars and money ... The girls with the bodies like boys with Ferraris."

Also, if you don't like that simply move out of the wilderness and in to a big city! Most people I know here don't have cars and it isn't a problem like it would be somewhere else where you "need" a car to get around. Picking someone up in a cab, meeting somewhere, taking a train, walking, or even riding bikes if the date also enjoys riding is perfectly acceptable and doesn't reflect poorly on either party. Since cars aren't necessity here, you are instead judged by what neighborhood you live in though.

And my last point is that with surveys like this it reflects what most people think, not everyone. I know plenty of girls who would laugh out loud if a date tried to pick them up in a Lexus or something like that.

Agreed.

In New York City, a person driving a Lexus is either a poser or VERY weathy because this car would require indoor parking costing about as much as rent. In the city, where you live is your social status. Those who were lucky to buy their apartments 20 years ago or more are financially weathly today.

There are people who live in crappy apartments and drive nice cars. There are people who live in nice homes and drive crappy cars and dress like crap. Given the choice between the two, I would prefer to be the latter. Those who drive nice cars all their lives and rent crappy apartments end up with nothing.

Only those who are young think an expensive car is a picture of wealth. Actually, a paid off mortgage on a new home in todays market is actually the case.

Car marketing is a well accepted group of lies that profit the liars and flatter the ones that willingly accept the fact they are being lied to.
Why do I say this?
I say this, because,I used to work in marketing for a prominent luxury car corporation.
Never in my life was I a more obnoxtious, self absorbed fool.
I had money coming out of the yin-yang, yet all I could focus on was more money.
...and I was miserable, with constant migranes, and huge car life?style related bills.
Shallow women flocked around me, boosting my fragile ego.
I walked away from it all to pursue my life as an artist, and a writer.
I earn about 75% less income now, and the old life has faded into winter.
I ride a bike now, while my fancy German Rocket rusts.
Women I approach on the bike are amused and startled, this isn't going to be easy.
While not 100% happy,I am a better man in every way.
I am the person I always admired, secretly, from my desk.

Car marketing is a well accepted group of lies that profit the liars and flatter the ones that willingly accept the fact they are bieng lied to.

You could remove "Car" and it would still be 100% true.

The problem (or maybe I should say one major problem) isn't just car culture -- it's a material culture whose only values are economic ones.

Seriously, one year some friends and I were talking about our goals for the coming new year. When I said I wanted more serenity, the whole group laughed. I'm not a part of that group anymore, and my life is considerably more serene. Coincidence?

Your story is inspiring, Serendipper. :)

Technically, you're only happy making 75% less cause you made more before.
Notice there are a lot of people who have money coming out the butt and then AFTERWARDS say they're tired of things and want to take it easy and are willing to "settle" for 75% less pay.

But if someone has little to begin with, there is no getting tired of things, there's no taking it easy if you're living paycheck to paycheck.

But if someone has little to begin with, there is no getting tired of things, there's no taking it easy if you're living paycheck to paycheck.

For those of us who did it the right way from the start, our only reward is a clear conscience.

And knowing we're better than those of you that sold your soul.

Meanwhile, I'll get back to my Ramen noodles and secondhand paperback since the cable was turned off and I can't buy any more groceries until payday.

Az

For those of us who did it the right way from the start, our only reward is a clear conscience.

And knowing we're better than those of you that sold your soul.

Meanwhile, I'll get back to my Ramen noodles and secondhand paperback since the cable was turned off and I can't buy any more groceries until payday.

Az

LOL.. true.
But a clear conscience doesn't put food on the table.
Anyway I should be happy, I like ramen and I don't read so I can't complain.
You can feed yourself for 50 cents a day if you live off ramen..

Auto-Matic Attraction: Ford Fusion 'Life in Drive' Survey Finds a Car 'Key' to Impressing a First Date

"Your car offers a very visual view of the person you are dating before a
single word is ever spoken." (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/10-24-2005/0004192919&EDATE=)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Very true. I have a friend who drives a Ford Mustang. He likes to go fast. He likes to race to the next intersection. Most things that the Mustang entails and embodies he reflects in one way or another.

I think my choices of vehicles Malibu and want to pull the trigger on an Element are great reflections on my personality. Same with my choices of bikes, a Mongoose XR-100 and a Bianchi Eros.

For those of us who did it the right way from the start, our only reward is a clear conscience.

And knowing we're better than those of you that sold your soul.

Meanwhile, I'll get back to my Ramen noodles and secondhand paperback since the cable was turned off and I can't buy any more groceries until payday.

Az
Clear conscience? I'm supposed to be guilty of something?
I'd be guilty if my boss had to haul my ass to Austin 100 miles away every time we have a client meeting to hammer out specs because there is a break down in communication and having human contact sets us above the rest..

LOL.. true.
But a clear conscience doesn't put food on the table.
Anyway I should be happy, I like ramen and I don't read so I can't complain.
You can feed yourself for 50 cents a day if you live off ramen..
I would also feel guilty if I ate ramen noodles, anymore. Try adding some beans and rice and dried vegetables to your diet. In the end I think its actually cheaper, tastes a helll of alot betterand alot healthier.
Except wait - you would have a hard time buying food cheap in bulk if you're living car free., like a 50lb bag of rice and 50lb bag of beans :p

Clear conscience? I'm supposed to be guilty of something?


That's between you and your diety.

I would never judge you, and that's another perfect example of why I'm so much better than you.

Az

...
Except wait - you would have a hard time buying food cheap in bulk if you're living car free., like a 50lb bag of rice and 50lb bag of beans :p
Solution 1 -- trailer. You would hardly believe what people can move with a good one.

Solution 2 -- Still bulk, but smaller. I do this every few weeks with dog food. I tried the 50 lb sack, but after one mishap (thank god for duct tape), I switched to 20/25 lb sacks. I've been carting those regularly for about 18 months on my pannier rack with no problems.

Still, I'd like to dive in further. This is now top of my wishlist: http://www.bikesatwork.com/bike-trailers/

It's all about choice. Each of us has to follow our own conscience/inner voice. None of us is perfect, and none of us should judge anyone else for the choices they make...

...unless you choose ramen noodles over mac-n-cheese -- I mean, c'mon people! :p

Car marketing is a well accepted group of lies that profit the liars and flatter the ones that willingly accept the fact they are being lied to.
Why do I say this?
I say this, because,I used to work in marketing for a prominent luxury car corporation.
Never in my life was I a more obnoxtious, self absorbed fool.
I had money coming out of the yin-yang, yet all I could focus on was more money.
...and I was miserable, with constant migranes, and huge car life?style related bills.
Shallow women flocked around me, boosting my fragile ego.
I walked away from it all to pursue my life as an artist, and a writer.
I earn about 75% less income now, and the old life has faded into winter.
I ride a bike now, while my fancy German Rocket rusts.
Women I approach on the bike are amused and startled, this isn't going to be easy.
While not 100% happy,I am a better man in every way.
I am the person I always admired, secretly, from my desk.
Very cool.

Thanks for your contribution!

Very true. I have a friend who drives a Ford Mustang. He likes to go fast. He likes to race to the next intersection. Most things that the Mustang entails and embodies he reflects in one way or another.

I think my choices of vehicles Malibu and want to pull the trigger on an Element are great reflections on my personality. Same with my choices of bikes, a Mongoose XR-100 and a Bianchi Eros.
It's helpful to have someone posting here who epitomizes the ideas that most of us do not want to hold.
Thanks for that, and all you do for our crazy car culture.

Solution 1 -- trailer. You would hardly believe what people can move with a good one.

Solution 2 -- Still bulk, but smaller. I do this every few weeks with dog food. I tried the 50 lb sack, but after one mishap (thank god for duct tape), I switched to 20/25 lb sacks. I've been carting those regularly for about 18 months on my pannier rack with no problems.

Still, I'd like to dive in further. This is now top of my wishlist: http://www.bikesatwork.com/bike-trailers/

It's all about choice. Each of us has to follow our own conscience/inner voice. None of us is perfect, and none of us should judge anyone else for the choices they make...

...unless you choose ramen noodles over mac-n-cheese -- I mean, c'mon people! :p


there's also the solution i saw used by some homeless guys in portland--pull three shopping carts of stuff behind you. ;)

At the end of August, I went shopping at the market to do my preserves. It's incredible the amount of food one may carry on a single bike (me and 4 panniers) + trailercycle (my youngest and 2 panniers) + child-free child trailer. My oldest daughter was also riding on her own bike with 2 lightly loaded panniers.

Between the three of us, we probably brought back 150-200 lb of fruits and vegetables... without using a single litre of gas.

EDIT: I wonder what would happen if I showed up for a date on a motorcycle? That would make quite a statement.

The guy would probably fall in love with you instantly. I know I would. Hell, I already have! ;)

Also, i haven't had a relationship since i have been car free, just pointing that out to sort of follow up on the first poster. Being car free is some sort of stigma here in good ol Kansas.


I wish I would have been a little more innovative when I was young and single (30 years ago), so I could have tried this experiment. A monthly payment on a new car is hundreds of dollars. A car-rental place in my neighborhood offers a weekend deal of renting a small car for about $40. A person could not own a car, get around by bike, rent a car several times a month (over a weekend), and still come out ahead financially.

So the experiment is, every month deposit into a dedicated savings account an amount of money equal to a monthly car payment plus a monthly insurance payment, both easy to find out even without owning a car. Use that savings account only for transportation expenses. At least once a month, rent a car whether needed or not, just to get the "wheels greased" for easy car rental--learn the procedure, become well-known at the rental place, etc.

Then, when the dating opportunity comes, go ahead and rent a car and show up in a nice-looking, spotlessly-clean, late model, motorized transportation appliance. Say nothing about it being rented. Say nothing at all about the appliance, deflect any comments about it, etc. Never mention anything about being car-free unless it seems appropriate. There you are, under cover, appearing to be a normal member of society. Save any discussion about car-free issues for a second date if there is one. Stick to the weather and people's health.

Then, if a second date comes up, things get interesting. Rent a car again. Don't be stingy about spending the money because you are setting it aside anyway for this purpose. Maybe you will get the same car. Then you can maintain the situation for the second date. Maybe you will get a different car. Maybe she won't notice. You are not being deliberately deceptive if you just say nothing about what is going on. At some point she will realize that something is funny because you have a different car every date. Then you can explain, and you will have a chance for it to be heard because you will be beyond the first impression stage.

But what to explain. You could weed the person out quickly by discussing the ethics and philosophy of being car-free and see what response you get. You could say that you are saving money to buy a house. You could say that you value travel to exotic and romantic places and you are massing your financial resources for that. You could say that you are planning to buy a car but haven't gotten around to going shopping. If you are planning to buy a car, you could invite her to go shopping with you. If this experiment went on for about seven years, you would have saved enough to pay cash for a new car. Then, if you were philosophically inclined to buy a car if your status changed (got married, for example) you could invite her along to go shopping, pick out a car, and write a check on the spot. That would be impressive.

Car marketing is a well accepted group of lies that profit the liars and flatter the ones that willingly accept the fact they are bieng lied to.

You could remove "Car" and it would still be 100% true. the problem is... it's a material culture whose only values are economic ones

I largely agree with regard to marketing, but i don't agree that valuing economic ideas is a bad thing.

I look at economics from the perspective of "how can we get as many people as possible to have access to good food and shelter" and I do think it is an economic problem. It is not the economic problem solved by tax cuts for the rich (despite what Ronald Reagan may have told you) but it is an economic problem. Needed are subsidies for education, subsidies to the wages, food for the poor, subsidized housing for people willing to live in small homes, (not mortgage-related tax deductions for people in 2 million dollar homes)

in place of military spending (direct and with weapons corporations), subsidies for roads, corporate farms, and energy consumption.

You could remove "Car" and it would still be 100% true. the problem is... it's a material culture whose only values are economic ones

I largely agree with regard to marketing, but i don't agree that valuing economic ideas is a bad thing. I look at economics from the perspective of "how can we get as many people as possible to have access to good food and shelter" and I do think it is an economic problem.

I think it is important to note here that budster wrote "only values are economic ones" Only is a key word here. There certainly are economic considerations to be made in answering the question of how "we get as many people as possible to have access to good food and shelter", but the economic considerations are only a part of that answer. The phrase "good food" itself implies some non-economic value. if we are talking about good in an economic sense, then we should follow the example of industrial agriculture and its agricultural economists because they have spent a long time looking at agriculture and food from a purely economic standpoint. However, if by "good food" we are interested in nutrition, flavor, toxicity, ecological impact, and those kinds of things, we are incorprating another type of value into the calculus. So i think economic considerations have a place, but they must be taken into consideration with other values that we hold. I think budster put it well, "the problem is... it's a material culture whose only values are economic ones."

Thanks, chipko -- you responded exactly as I would have, only much more eloquently. :)

Economic realities must be part of any solution to real world problems, but money ain't the only thing that matters, and the more our society behaves as if it is the only thing that matters, the more insane we become.

American car infatuation is something of a grevious thing. I can safely say that in other parts of the world cars are not as much of an issue. So, really, the seemingly benign fact that cars are so noticed does say something about American materialism.
unfortunately i have to disagree with you. although car ownership is not as universal in most other places, it is often even MORE of a status symbol!

It is different in many ways than the US "auto culture", but cars are very important "status" symbols in Germany too - in some ways more as they are not "necessary" as in the the US so more of a true "luxury" item. Germany is the land of BMW, Porsche, Audi and Mercedes... (on the other hand it is more common to be car-free here) --- i was completely car-free my first 2 years here and for the last 2 years have a car for my outdoor mountain adventures (i am a mountain bike guide) -- i have a very practical car (japanese station wagon which has room for 5 passengers, 5 bikes and luggage and gets decent gas mileage) and i often get strange reactions as i don't have a "nice" car and i could care less if it is washed or "looks pretty" or whatever: it is there only to get me and other cyclists to the trails. especially where i live in Munich, for the "young professional" social crap, a BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Audi, nice Volkswagon or italian car is basically a "requirement".

Or in Italy where it is common for young single males to live at home with mommy, but put all their cash into brand-name clothes (i.e. Armani) and own a nice car that they often cannot afford to drive (really, there was an article in a European magazine about the phoenomen)

Economic realities must be part of any solution to real world problems, but money ain't the only thing that matters, and the more our society behaves as if it is the only thing that matters, the more insane we become.

True say. I'm a teenager (18) looking to do something I'm interested in with my life. But my parent's and siblings (my bro is 12 years older) don't seem to understand this because of how economically oriented our society has become. I'm going to be a paramedic and then once I've done 4 years in the Reserves, a Search And Rescue Technician. My calling is to help people in that way, I need action and physical challanges to be happy, sitting around all day not only doen't satisfy, but drives me crazy. But my family doesn't understand this because they have been so seduced by the money first attitude of our culture. Getting something out of life is what happens after work, that's what your earning all the money for, so that you can do the things you love, even if your job drives you bat-**** insane.
Why not do something you love to earn a living, even if it doesn't keep you living in high style with a nice car. In the end when your on your death bed, would you rather be thinking "man I've amassed some nice ****" or "I'm glad I've been able to lead a meaningful life"
I think this is a quality vs quantity kind of thing. Do you want a tonne of crap (and a car) that has little or no meaning to you. Or do you want to live a deeply fullfilling and meaningful life. My condolences if you can't see beyond the former, but we live in a free society (or so I've been told), so it's up to you.

True say. I'm a teenager (18) looking to do something I'm interested in with my life. But my parent's and siblings (my bro is 12 years older) don't seem to understand this because of how economically oriented our society has become. I'm going to be a paramedic and then once I've done 4 years in the Reserves, a Search And Rescue Technician. My calling is to help people in that way, I need action and physical challanges to be happy, sitting around all day not only doen't satisfy, but drives me crazy. But my family doesn't understand this because they have been so seduced by the money first attitude of our culture. Getting something out of life is what happens after work, that's what your earning all the money for, so that you can do the things you love, even if your job drives you bat-**** insane.
Why not do something you love to earn a living, even if it doesn't keep you living in high style with a nice car. In the end when your on your death bed, would you rather be thinking "man I've amassed some nice ****" or "I'm glad I've been able to lead a meaningful life"
I think this is a quality vs quantity kind of thing. Do you want a tonne of crap (and a car) that has little or no meaning to you. Or do you want to live a deeply fullfilling and meaningful life. My condolences if you can't see beyond the former, but we live in a free society (or so I've been told), so it's up to you.
David, it sounds like you're one kid who has his head on straight. I've tried to live my own life as you describe. At age 50 I have no regrets!

way to live, guys...i'm trying to do that. it does mean a lot of tough times, though...the whole "starving musician/writer/student" thing is pretty true...

David, it sounds like you know what you want to do and how to do it. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a calling. That's a difficult (but highly rewarding) field, where the demand for skilled people always outstrips supply. It will pay enough to take care of your needs. I say go for it.

You do realize that your parents are only thinking of your happiness and well-being? It's not easy for them to accept that now you are responsible for those things, that now you have to stand or fall on your own. That's one of the hardest things for parents to do, especially if they don't believe it's possible to live a life that's both meaningful and successful. So if you can, be patient with them. Their intentions are good.

Probably, they don't realize the opportunities that such a background can create. When you are happy and successful, they will know you made the right decisions.

david, I know how parents can be. I'm a teen to. I don't want a desk job and whenever I mention so to my parents we get into a long discution(sp?) about how you can't get by in this world with anything less then a masters(rolling eyes). Anyways, I hope every thing works out for you.
Gray

So worthwhile a thread! A classmate here at slacker state asked me yesterday what my girlfriend and I did when we went out- I told her we rode together, it's a lot better than my (no liscence) girlfriend being a passive passenger, and that we were thinking about getting a tandem.
she (the classmate) didn't quite get the point that knowing you have to have balance to get home is a simple and effective way to limit your alcohol intake.
shoot. maybe cycling Isn't good for the dating scene.