I was quite surprised!! After all ... who steals beater bikes which anyone could pick up in the thrift shop for $10???? Or from the local dump for free???
The fact that (?unlocked) charity bikes were stolen is pathetic, but it won't be like that for someone who locks a beater to a University rack with something like a New York model Kryptonite lock. I've been locking my usually cheap road bikes around Toronto for 30 years and I've had two stolen, and one of those was probably due to a momentary lapse when I may have locked a cable lock to something that it might have been able to be stretched over. So I wouldn't worry about "several times a year".

what cooker said. Well locked beater bikes don't go missing very often.

Back to the original topic (not that I'm not enjoying the lively OT discussion) for a sec...

A reason I could give to drive a bunch rather than biking: I live in a small town in the mountains, so if I need or want to go to the doctor, the box store, the movies, a chain fast food restaurant, etc, etc, I need a car so I go to another town that has these things, especially in the winter. But doctor visits are rare, let's not start on the box stores, movies are from the library or rented, I cook instead, etc, etc.


I think living car free is unrealistic for most people. In some areas, say, Manhattan for instance, it would be relatively easy because of the mass transit system and because owning a car and driving it would be a real burden, but there are a lot more areas that have little to no mass transit and bicycling, as much as I love to do it, is really not always a viable option.

As mentioned above, I live in an area with little, no wait, NO mass transit. No bus, no light rail, nothing. Yet I bike or walk all over, to work, the grocery, the laundromat..."owning a car and driving it" can be a "real burden" wherever you are. The place I am is nothing like Manhattan, yet paying for insurance, registration, gas, maintenance, etc would certainly be a burden on me at the moment. I actually have a car - it would have been pretty hard to move here from three states away without one - but it is not licensed (expired out-of-state tags) and I very rarely drive it. It's a big honkin' van with all but the driver's seat out, and I use it for storage!

That being said, I do agree that being car-free is not always a viable option for everyone, but it depends on more than where you live: your job, your health, your family and their needs. Veering back off topic again, I definitely agree with those who have pointed out that being car-lite is a step in the right direction. We can't all be car-free; in fact, I firmly believe that we will never see even a significant minority of car-free (by choice) people in the U.S., at least not in my lifetime. But the more people there are that are "car-conscious" - using cars as little as possible, the better off we'll be.

In regards to Toasted (person who said s/he would commute 150 miles a day)-- do you do anything at the other end of your commute or do you just turn back and go the other way?

:lol:

Actually, I just enjoy being physically active. I would, at one point, ride five miles to work, run all night at work and heft heavy machinery, then ride for the next sixteen hours until my shift started. I'd do that for a few days and then go home and rest. It was fun. Saw lots of bats.

But I look at it this way. These people in their cars have to spend money to go to a gym. All I have to do is go grocery shopping. They have to look in the mirror and reassure themselves, I just have to climb the next hill.

There are 24 hours in a day, typical work day is 8 hours, leaving sixteen. I'll spend 8 hours a day on my bike. No problem. I'll probably cut that time down, too. Then I can start doing centuries and double centuries and then have that accomplishment made, as well.

:lol:

Actually, I just enjoy being physically active. I would, at one point, ride five miles to work, run all night at work and heft heavy machinery, then ride for the next sixteen hours until my shift started. I'd do that for a few days and then go home and rest. It was fun. Saw lots of bats.

But I look at it this way. These people in their cars have to spend money to go to a gym. All I have to do is go grocery shopping. They have to look in the mirror and reassure themselves, I just have to climb the next hill.

There are 24 hours in a day, typical work day is 8 hours, leaving sixteen. I'll spend 8 hours a day on my bike. No problem. I'll probably cut that time down, too. Then I can start doing centuries and double centuries and then have that accomplishment made, as well.
Seems like you must already be doing centuries quite often? A century usually takes a decent rider 4 to 8 hours, and you're on your bike 8 hours a day. Did I misunderstand something?

I would, at one point, ride five miles to work, run all night at work and heft heavy machinery, then ride for the next sixteen hours until my shift started.

There are 24 hours in a day, typical work day is 8 hours, leaving sixteen. I'll spend 8 hours a day on my bike. No problem. I'll probably cut that time down, too. Then I can start doing centuries and double centuries and then have that accomplishment made, as well.


Ummmmm ... if you spend 8 hours a day on your bike ... how is it that you have not done a century yet? What are you doing out there on your bicycle?

I'm slow as molassas on a cold winter day when I ride, but I can knock off a century in 8 hours with no problem at all.

And if you rode for 16 hours, till your shift started ... how is it that you have not done a double century yet?

Again ... I'm slow as can be here, but I've done several 16 hour double centuries.


I'm sorry to question you ... but something about your story doesn't quite add up.

I was figuring 75 miles would take me 6 hours. (i'm not much of a marathoner.)

I just don't think there's any way I could handle 12 hours for biking, 8 hours for working, and 4 hours for eat/sleep time, every weekday.

I see myself needing at least 7 hours of sleep to recover from 12 hours of bicycling, plus some time to eat.

Though I currently have no running car and go everywhere by bike or bus or plane, here's my angle why I'm seriously considering getting the car running.

I live 10 miles from downtown. The main streets to downtown are hilly, old and pockmarked, narrow, unlit and go through some nasty parts of town. You take your life in your hands after dark. The buses stop running at 8pm. If you want to be accepted, it's hard to show up at a business mixer or other professional gathering dripping sweat. Going on some of the nice out-of-town rides is tougher if you have to pedal an extra 20-40 miles just because you lack a car.

Another reason for not being totally car free:
"My wife/husband/partner/lover needs/wants us to own a car".
R


So true. The first time I bought a car was after realizing that girls in L.A. wouldn't date a guy without a car.

So true. The first time I bought a car was after realizing that girls in L.A. wouldn't date a guy without a car.
Would you not be happier (in the long run, at least) finding and dating girls who share your basic values? Is it not nicer to be honest in a relationship? As opposed to buying an object you don't like in order to trick people into associating with you?

New aphorism: "If there is a boy like you, there must be a girl like you. Find her."

I used to live in a town 77 miles from the movie theater and 110 from the nearest Mcdonald's, each way. I can't imagine what people would do there if they got a job out of town.

Would you not be happier (in the long run, at least) finding and dating girls who share your basic values? Is it not nicer to be honest in a relationship? As opposed to buying an object you don't like in order to trick people into associating with you?

New aphorism: "If there is a boy like you, there must be a girl like you. Find her."

Your "post hoc ergo propter hoc" aphorism breaks like a cheap spoke. No two snowflakes are alike.

Back when I bought that first car at age 32 in the early '80s, women who would live without a car were as rare as hen's teeth. And yes, one of my girlfriends did fit that description. But only one. She later ran off with the Scientologists. So much for shared values. Nor does accepting a guy with a bicycle-only life style mean that she values it too. She may just prefer to do all the driving and likes a guy with good legs. Now that I am in my '50s, women are much more accepting of my cycle-only lifestyle. It means that I am still relatively in shape, able to do more than watch football and play golf.

So don't make the mistake of thinking that there is only one value to be compatible. As you said, values. It's a whole package there. And often, being human, there are conflicting values. I love to bicycle. I loathe bicycling with others.

But tell me, how in hell is buying a car not honest? How in the hell am I "tricking" them? And, what makes you project your values onto me? It happens that as a child, being a car designer was my dream career. Gulf Oil money put me through prep school.

Actually I love cars. But that doesn't mean that I would sacrifice to own them.

I became car-free when I moved out on my own at age 21. Had I the time to save up for a car, I might have started off like all my friends. But no, I left the nest pedaling my purple Peugeot. When I did it, I knew no one else who was car free. After a while of living in L.A. this way it became pretty natural. The first gas crisis cinched it.

Since then I've had a 16 year marriage and I'm now back on my own and back to car-free. My girlfriend and I share values like conservative spending and liberal politics. She enjoys driving and likes my legs. Our relationship is very honest.

Your "post hoc ergo propter hoc" aphorism breaks like a cheap spoke. No two snowflakes are alike. You say girls don't like guys who.... That verges on being sexist! Some girls do, and some girls don't! The point of the aphorism is that if you as a human hold certain values, other humans will hold them too. Some of those humans will be female. You think you're special, and I'm sure you are, but nobody is truly unique . . . Thank God!

One of my favorite quotes is from Harry Stack Sullivan: "Underneath it all, we are all simply more human than otherwise."

You say girls don't like guys who.... That verges on being sexist! Some girls do, and some girls don't! The point of the aphorism is that if you as a human hold certain values, other humans will hold them too. Some of those humans will be female. You think you're special, and I'm sure you are, but nobody is truly unique . . . Thank God!

One of my favorite quotes is from Harry Stack Sullivan: "Underneath it all, we are all simply more human than otherwise."

Both of you assuming to understand what a woman likes, don't like or thinks, highlights one of the less flattering definitions of the word AssUMe. Like any of us guys have half a clue of what goes on in those beautiful, but incomprehensible female minds! I don't pretend to understand women nor do I think I would like to, because it would probably lead me to total insanity followed closely by spontaneous combustion.

That said, while you may have no problem getting away with taking a gal you already know out on a bicycle or bicycles, showing up on a bike and offering to seat her on your handlebars is not exactly a proven winner in the first/blind date department.

Both of you assuming to understand what a woman likes, don't like or thinks, highlights one of the less flattering definitions of the word AssUMe. Like any of us guys have half a clue of what goes on in those beautiful, but incomprehensible female minds! I don't pretend to understand women nor do I think I would like to, because it would probably lead me to total insanity followed closely by spontaneous combustion.

That said, while you may have no problem getting away with taking a gal you already know out on a bicycle or bicycles, showing up on a bike and offering to seat her on your handlebars is not exactly a proven winner in the first/blind date department.


Actually ... from the female perspective ... if a guy showed up at my doorstep with a bicycle, and no motorized vehicle, I would be thrilled!!! Even before he showed up on my doorstep ... if he called me and told me he wanted to take me out, but that he didn't have a car, and his idea of a perfect date was a long bicycle ride with a picnic in the middle, I'd probably be making wedding plans! :D

On the other side of the coin, if a guy showed up with some "hot" car, I'd be turned off. He'd really have to have some incredible redeeming features ... like telling me the car was merely borrowed under a mistaken impression it might impress me, and that in reality he owns 6 bicycles and hardly ever drives anywhere ... for me to continue seeing him.

Actually ... from the female perspective ... if a guy showed up at my doorstep with a bicycle, and no motorized vehicle, I would be thrilled!!! Even before he showed up on my doorstep ... if he called me and told me he wanted to take me out, but that he didn't have a car, and his idea of a perfect date was a long bicycle ride with a picnic in the middle, I'd probably be making wedding plans! :D

On the other side of the coin, if a guy showed up with some "hot" car, I'd be turned off. He'd really have to have some incredible redeeming features ... like telling me the car was merely borrowed under a mistaken impression it might impress me, and that in reality he owns 6 bicycles and hardly ever drives anywhere ... for me to continue seeing him.

LOL, well thanks for proving my point...I shoulda known that my favorite BF gals would just love a bicycle date...but would you ride on the handlebars, or make him?

LOL, well thanks for proving my point...I shoulda known that my favorite BF gals would just love a bicycle date...but would you ride on the handlebars, or make him?


He'd better either have his own bicycle, and be able to keep up with the distances I do ... or plan to be riding on the handlebars! :lol:

all right I prepared for the flaming but....
I won't be car free because it's hard to haul a 14.5" sea kayak and a 16" sea kayak to
the put in

all right I prepared for the flaming but....
I won't be car free because it's hard to haul a 14.5" sea kayak and a 16" sea kayak to
the put in
How many trips per year?

Please don't misquote me and then harrass me on the basis of the misquote. I did not say "girls don't like guys who..." Try to find that quote. You can't.

I did say that "girls in L.A. wouldn't date a guy without a car". This is a lesson of experience. I would date a woman, and it would go fine for a while. Consistently, they would tell me that they liked me but that they just couldn't date a guy without a car. This was the early '80s remember. If I may quote a Missing Persons song of the time, "only a nobody walks in LA". It applied to bicyclists too. It happened often enough to know that I would better my chances with a car.

If you read my second message, yes, I even had a girlfriend in the '70s who was car-free. So I know there were a few. For the women I was meeting when I bought my car, my statement was absolutely accurate.

You said "Would you not be happier (in the long run, at least) finding and dating girls who share your basic values?" How pedantic and condescending. Do you have a clue about how happy I am or am not? Do you know how many basic values I share with the women I date? You accuse me of deceit and dishonesty. You have no idea of what my love life has been, but you lecture me. No wonder I take offense. Is this some kind of hazing ritual of senior board members to newbies to see how tough they are? I'll consider myself welcomed.

all right I prepared for the flaming but....
I won't be car free because it's hard to haul a 14.5" sea kayak and a 16" sea kayak to
the put in

Be careful. Someone will suggest you hire a car for the days you use the kayak, because we all have car rental companies right around the corner.

Last time I was having this discussion someone suggested quite seriously that my Dad (who is a Brickie) could use a bicycle to do his job!

Please don't give me that old chestnut "what did we do before cars". It's irrelevant to today’s living.

Bikes are environmentally friendly but they aren't a solution for EVERYONE. A lot of people need cars.

CHEERS.

Mark

it's hard to haul a 14.5" sea kayak and a 16" sea kayak to
the put in

Surely if your kayaks are between a foot and a foot and a half apiece, you could just stick them in a backpack...

Okay, you meant feet, not inches. Hard, perhaps - certainly not imposible:

http://www.mrkland.com/outdoor/bike/tryak/

And where's that one picture I see all the time of the guy pulling like a 20' kayak?

I will not be care free. It is not possible unless I wanted to quit a good paying job, divorce my husband, or spend most of my day on the bicycle. My husband and I both work about 30 miles from our jobs. Our house in the middle of both jobs. I work midnights and on weekends. Definately not safe for commuting. We both have specialized jobs. My wages are about 70K and my husband makes 55K. He has about 2 years and I have 7 years until retirement. I have tried to commute, 25-30 miles is too time consmuing to do it both ways. It makes for a 12-13 hour day just getting to work, work and getting home. I spent more money, because I ate more, and I was too tired to cook, so bought prepared foods. So, it is not feasible for all people to be car free unless I sold my house and quit my job or divorce my spouse of 30 years. So, I'll just be car lite. I drive slower now, and try to run errands on my bike and try to commute 1 or 2 times per week. The closest that the bus service is to my house is 5 miles on my end and short 12 miles on the other end. In addition, bus service stops at my end about 9:30 pm, so I would get to work a couple of hours early. So, I will continue to drive.

I live several blocks from the store
The bus stop is several blocks away
I don't have time
Its too inconvenient
[/list]
If you're going to refute excuses, then pick some harder ones. These are too easy to shoot down. How about the people who live many miles from the nearest store, many miles from any bus stop, have several kids, are old or infirm, live dozens of miles of busy interstate away from jobs, etc. This isn't a pro-car rant btw.

Actually ... from the female perspective ... if a guy showed up at my doorstep with a bicycle, and no motorized vehicle, I would be thrilled!!! Even before he showed up on my doorstep ... if he called me and told me he wanted to take me out, but that he didn't have a car, and his idea of a perfect date was a long bicycle ride with a picnic in the middle, I'd probably be making wedding plans! :D



Back in the early 80's, you would be a hen's tooth. ;)

Ah, I think this forum seems to revolve around men wanting to get laid with a woman chiming in every now and then to keep this from dengenerating into female bashing. Where's that site that claims that a prostitute is cheaper than a wife?

In all seriousness, I am indifferent to a person's transportation, although if a guy shows up in a Ferarri he'd better be making enough money to easily afford it AND be using it to it's full capacity (racing). Same with a large motorcycle. Nothing bugs me more than a poser. That said, the only person I know of that has the perfect set of traits is a straight female, so no use in dating for me.

Ah, I think this forum seems to revolve around men wanting to get laid with a woman chiming in every now and then to keep this from dengenerating into female bashing. Where's that site that claims that a prostitute is cheaper than a wife?

All I know is that those discussion make me so grateful to be gay!

If you're going to refute excuses, then pick some harder ones. These are too easy to shoot down. How about the people who live many miles from the nearest store, many miles from any bus stop, have several kids, are old or infirm, live dozens of miles of busy interstate away from jobs, etc. This isn't a pro-car rant btw.

Well, that was one reason to post... get other excuses for the list. I am looking for excuses, though, the BS reasons that can be shot down with a reality check. The people who have chosen to live out in the middle of nowhere will not be easily convinced, and frankly that's best left to someone else, I don't have the patience.

To sum up what I've gotten out of this thread...

Car-free is a choice. While it certainly can be inconvenient and difficult to live car-free in modern American society, many people do it. They are here among us.

For those who say "I can't live car unless XY and/or Z": if X,Y and Z are physically possible, then you could live car-free if you chose to, but you are not willing to make those changes right now.

I myself am a not-so-shining example of exactly that. And I would say there's nothing wrong with that. But many of us are always looking for ways to use the car less and for many of us, car-free is a serious goal. Sadly, most of us will need to be a whole lot tougher, and/or society will need to change to make it easier. Many of us also work to make society more car-free friendly.

I hope we all agree that those who do live car-free are doing a great thing, both because of the direct benefits to all of us (eg cleaner air, reduced energy demand, less traffic) and also because of the additional benefits of showing it can be done and providing lessons to us about going car-free (or becoming more car-free).

No one should be condemned for not going car-free. It is rewarding, but it ain't easy. Anyone who reduces their car use deserves praise and encouragement.

Those who can go all the way deserve deep admiration and gratitude.

I will not be care free. It is not possible unless I wanted to quit a good paying job, divorce my husband, or spend most of my day on the bicycle. My husband and I both work about 30 miles from our jobs. Our house in the middle of both jobs. I work midnights and on weekends. Definately not safe for commuting. We both have specialized jobs. My wages are about 70K and my husband makes 55K. He has about 2 years and I have 7 years until retirement.

I agree car free doesn't make sense for you now, because you're encumbered by earlier choices you made, and impeded by the infrastructure of our car-dependant society, just as I am (and most North Americans are). Car-free is something people have to plan their lives around over the long-term, including finding a home and a job in geographic areas that are compatible with cycling, walking or public transit, and negotiating these with your spouse. My wife insists on owning a car, but she also accepted my insistance that we buy a house near the subway line and my office, even though that bumped the price up quite a bit, so at least we're car-lite, as you are. I think our annual savings from owning one car instead of two have pretty much offset the higher mortgage payments.

Robert

To get to work every day I have to drive on 2 Interstate highways that span 4-6 lanes for a single direction. I do so about 1/2 - 2 hours before the sun rise.

Is this some kind of hazing ritual of senior board members to newbies to see how tough they are? I'll consider myself welcomed.

Welcome to Roody's world, I spent a week there one day. But he has a excuse, he lives in a state up north that I am not allowed to mention this time of year for fear of causing Woody Hayes to turn in his grave and smack the corpse next to him.

I think our annual savings from owning one car instead of two have pretty much offset the higher mortgage payments.

Robert

How expensive is owning a car? My car costs me about 250 a month. 100 for insurance for a single 23 year old. I think I spend around 100 a month on gas. I actually have my gas mileage and spending worked along with all car related expenses in an excel sheet. The remaining 50 is split between regular oil changes and tires and coolant. My car lets me take home (after taxes) nearly but not quite 10 times that amount.

Well, that was one reason to post... get other excuses for the list. I am looking for excuses, though, the BS reasons that can be shot down with a reality check. The people who have chosen to live out in the middle of nowhere will not be easily convinced, and frankly that's best left to someone else, I don't have the patience.
What about the people who choose to own something of their own?

How expensive is owning a car? My car costs me about 250 a month. 100 for insurance for a single 23 year old. I think I spend around 100 a month on gas. I actually have my gas mileage and spending worked along with all car related expenses in an excel sheet. The remaining 50 is split between regular oil changes and tires and coolant. My car lets me take home (after taxes) nearly but not quite 10 times that amount.

That's $3000 per year for starters, but you forgot to factor in purchase or lease costs, and any necessary maintenance or repairs. The depreciation on a new car is at least $1000/year (or higher), although it would be a lot less on an old or second hand car, and repair costs can pile up too. Most people are looking at $5000+ per year, and much more if it's an expensive car.

R

What about the people who choose to own something of their own?

You're right, it's all about choices. No-one forced you to live and work at opposite ends of a freeway, and no-one's forcing you to stop living that way. I chose to live near my work, and I'm paying the price (higher housing costs) and reaping the benefits (no road rage).

What about the people who choose to own something of their own?

I am not planning to start a heated debate here on personal choices. My belief is that owning a car for personal use is unacceptable in (western world) urban centres; and it is my belief that personal wants/choices have no weight against the good of the human race or the health of my fellow citizens. For example, I think there should be a hefty fine for driving a car in the urban core on smog-warning days, since doing so directly harms the health of everyone else.

However, and as stated before, I have no plans to try to change the minds of any individual who has (a) placed him/herself in a position requiring dependence on a personal-use car or who (b) has strong and adamant feelings against giving up any or all use of their car. My audience for "ver. 2.0" of the anti-car rant on my web site is limited to the people who could be car-free or cut back on car use but only make excuses for not doing so.

Food, basic shelter, clothing and personal safety are needs, everything else is optional. We all have to draw a line between personal comforts/luxuries and our duty to society/the planet/other human beings - and we all draw that line differently. I feel ok owning pets, and a house (but compromised on a row-house) but feel it is unacceptable to use a personal-use car in urban centres. I have never owned a car - I'm 33, have a household of three adults, two cats, one dog, one gecko, one mystery rodent, and no cars. I was raised without a car, and don't feel I missed out on anything specifically because of a supposed "lack" of car. I don't expect to convert the masses to my way of thinking, but I do know that I can open the eyes of some people (and have already done so). Besides that, I like ranting and dismissing empty excuses.

s (no road rage).
Heh reminds me, I was coming back and going past a place where alot of cyclists meet. Its called Park n-Ride under i-10. Well this one cyclist for some reason decides to take the whole road which I found to be weird. Anywyas as we go through an intersection after waiting our turn at a 4-stop he is still taking up a lane and having difficulty getting started and this dude behind him revvs up his engine and after safely clearing the intersections switches lanes. Well the dude on the bicycle taking up a whole unnecessary road then goes and cusses the man out.

I am not planning to start a heated debate here on personal choices. My belief is that owning a car for personal use is unacceptable in (western world) urban centres; and it is my belief that personal wants/choices have no weight against the good of the human race or the health of my fellow citizens. For example, I think there should be a hefty fine for driving a car in the urban core on smog-warning days, since doing so directly harms the health of everyone else.

However, and as stated before, I have no plans to try to change the minds of any individual who has (a) placed him/herself in a position requiring dependence on a personal-use car or who (b) has strong and adamant feelings against giving up any or all use of their car. My audience for "ver. 2.0" of the anti-car rant on my web site is limited to the people who could be car-free or cut back on car use but only make excuses for not doing so.

Food, basic shelter, clothing and personal safety are needs, everything else is optional. We all have to draw a line between personal comforts/luxuries and our duty to society/the planet/other human beings - and we all draw that line differently. I feel ok owning pets, and a house (but compromised on a row-house) but feel it is unacceptable to use a personal-use car in urban centres. I have never owned a car - I'm 33, have a household of three adults, two cats, one dog, one gecko, one mystery rodent, and no cars. I was raised without a car, and don't feel I missed out on anything specifically because of a supposed "lack" of car. I don't expect to convert the masses to my way of thinking, but I do know that I can open the eyes of some people (and have already done so). Besides that, I like ranting and dismissing empty excuses.
I understand that, I just found it funny the way I took the one phrase that you happened to use.

That's $3000 per year for starters, but you forgot to factor in purchase or lease costs, and any necessary maintenance or repairs. The depreciation on a new car is at least $1000/year (or higher), although it would be a lot less on an old or second hand car, and repair costs can pile up too. Most people are looking at $5000+ per year, and much more if it's an expensive car.

R
Hmmmmm. That's about what I take home in 1 1/2 months. However, without the car I couldnt make that money and I'd be back working from home. Unfortunately it could be semi difficult to scrap the necessary money together to pay rent if I did so. All in all - if I did or do choose to go back to working from home I still fail to see how 200 a month is an expense that would bother me. I could and do cut 200 a month in food and unnecessary utilities to make up for that.

I understand that, I just found it funny the way I took the one phrase that you happened to use.

Ah. Well, answering another way, property rights aren't something I have much respect or use for in this type of context.

Please don't misquote me and then harrass me on the basis of the misquote. I did not say "girls don't like guys who..." Try to find that quote. You can't.

I did say that "girls in L.A. wouldn't date a guy without a car". This is a lesson of experience. I would date a woman, and it would go fine for a while. Consistently, they would tell me that they liked me but that they just couldn't date a guy without a car. This was the early '80s remember. If I may quote a Missing Persons song of the time, "only a nobody walks in LA". It applied to bicyclists too. It happened often enough to know that I would better my chances with a car.

If you read my second message, yes, I even had a girlfriend in the '70s who was car-free. So I know there were a few. For the women I was meeting when I bought my car, my statement was absolutely accurate.

You said "Would you not be happier (in the long run, at least) finding and dating girls who share your basic values?" How pedantic and condescending. Do you have a clue about how happy I am or am not? Do you know how many basic values I share with the women I date? You accuse me of deceit and dishonesty. You have no idea of what my love life has been, but you lecture me. No wonder I take offense. Is this some kind of hazing ritual of senior board members to newbies to see how tough they are? I'll consider myself welcomed.
Sorry your feelings got hurt. I thought my comments were pretty innocuous, but I guess I was wrong. I never intend to respond "personally" to anybody here, because, as you pointed out, I don't know anybody here "personally." All I know about you, for example, is what you wrote in your posts. And that is all I was responding to, not your character or your values or anything else about you. I sure didn't call you any names like the ones you called me!

So maybe you will enjoy the internet more if you don't keep taking stuff so "personally"! And if you don't want us commenting on your "personal" life, don't tell us about it.

All I know is that those discussion make me so grateful to be gay!
Me too Pat. Every time I comment on breeder angst, I live to regret it! Somebody stop me before I strike again!

OK Pat, back to topic. Here are a couple excuses I have heard:
I don't like to sweat.
I have to take my dogs to the park every day for a run.
My kids have to get to soccer practice across town. They need their exercize!
My gym is five miles from my house.
The stores around here don't have bike racks.
I need a car for my annual vacation.
I never rode on a bus, but I hear they suck.

None of us live in an ideal dreamland where being car free is always easy. Either you are willing to try and make it work, or you're not. It's that simple. If youre not willing to make changes so it works, you need to admit it. Don't pretend that you have it any harder than the rest of us do because no one is forcing you to drive except yourself.

I'm not willing to try and make it work. It's that simple. I admit it. I generally leave this thread alone since I do not live car-free. I was enticed in here by the title of the thread. Gone now. :)

How many trips per year?
2-6 , We have a 1997 Ford taurus that sits in the garage. mostly we bike and bus, but I'm not going to lie
the car is handy for sea kayak trips and ferrying around the odd family groups (can we say airport shuttle?) for the holidays.

(no road rage).

I get road rage on my bike. Cars just piss me off. They are SO slow at intersections. I have been walking to work for the last few years just to avoid this. But I guess I don't like large groups of people very much. The group mind is not very smart.

Lucky for me that after fleeing NOLA I now work for my cousin in the back yard. Hidden lakes in the woods are everywhere here.

[QUOTE]So maybe you will enjoy the internet more if you ...QUOTE]

Whatever!

Moving around a lot as a kid, I noticed that in each neighborhood there was always one kid who would come to test you out. Once you showed that you were more than able to defend yourself, things went okay. Sometimes you might even make friends with the kid.

Because I have a wife and Two teenagers. Enough said!!

And I live in a rural area. But I personally do ride to work.