$10,000 or 14 yrs in jail VS. "Share the Road" Signs
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kb0tnv
I am wanting peoples thoughts regarding these constructions signs I see here in MO. They state, "Kill a construction worker and pay $10,000 or 14 yrs in jail". For cyclists we either have a picture of a bike. Which is like a deer sign. Or of course the usual "Share the Road". I think we need to UPDATE these with the same thing the construction workers have. The "$10,000 fine or 14 yrs in jail". Maybe that will make people "wake up and smell the coffee". I do notice I get a little more room with the "Share the Road" signs in certain places. However there are many places withought signs. I think we should just replace all the "Share the Road" signs with new ones that show a bike in the background and "Kill a cyclist pay $10,000 or 14 yrs in jail". I am tired of these drivers thinking we are open season. These drivers need to know that we are legal to ride on the road and have the same rights to it as they do. They need to truely see the penalty for their actions. I bet others agree. I brought it up in my local bike forum and cc'd our local pike / ped coordinator for the Missouri Department of Transit. Maybe we can get something changed. After seeing the report of the Marine cyclist who was killed by a driver who did a hit-n-run get only 3yrs in jail I think we need stiffer penalties and more VISABILITY to get our message across. This should be more than just Missouri. But if I can start it here all the better. Grassroots efforts help to start the fire burning and then spreading!
I am pumped about it since I had one vehicle (truck - why are they always trucks?) pass me very fast and close. I was riding legally and was as far right in the lane. It is one that can be shared. I was pretty pissed so I tapped his rear. I saw the light change and there was some construction....so the sap was stuck. I slapped his vehicle as I passed it on the right to really get his attention. I then headed on my way since there was a bunch of construction. I went slowly since I know it isn't the best thing to ride on the right when passing. Cars can make turns and move more into the shoulder. But I got ahead and eventually was on my way. I got to an even wider intersection area and passed through. I noticed an area where I needed to move over more into the lane. I did a shoulder check. I did notice a vehicle but it was farther back. I moved over and as I was moving out and back in it was that same truck! All it did was pass me and honk. So I know he got my message. I didn't want to confront the driver since I don't have a clue if he/she (I assume it was a male since they love to drive trucks) was packin' heat. I got the license plate number and I submitted an e-mail to our local Missouri Bike Fed. They can lookup the owner's info and send them a letter informing them that cyclists have a right to the road and that we have a record of the incident. It helps me to sleep well at night to know that the driver can't think they got away with something very long. That they are anonymous or something. I did rethink my "tapping" of his vehicle...but you know this is MY life they are possibly taking. I am someone who isn't going to just take it and move on. I believe in my right of traveling by my mode of choice (cycling). If it wasn't legal for me to be there I wouldn't. I could go on... Just wanted to give more background of why I am posting this.
Last month was my anniversary of commuting 2 yrs! 2005 I hope to put in the most miles ever!
Keep Cycling! :)
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
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I think we should just replace all the "Share the Road" signs with new ones that show a bike in the background and "Kill a cyclist pay $10,000 or 14 yrs in jail". I am tired of these drivers thinking we are open season.
While I agree 100% with the idea behind this, I don't want to see any signs with the words "Kill a cyclist" on them. Maybe I've studied too much cognitive psychology, but the subliminal processing potential here is just a little too ugly. I can already hear the lame jokes, such as: "Kill a cyclist, collect $10,000!"
I like the Share the Road signs. Maybe add "violators prosecuted"?
I, too, have noticed that life is better on roads with Share the Road signs. More, more, more please. Of course, more cyclists would help the situation more than anything else, but that takes us into a feedback loop, doesn't it?
(truck - why are they always trucks?)
They're just too big for the darned road a lot of times, and, if you're talking about a big pickup, often the driver doesn't know how big his vehicle is.
Also -- do you know the legend of the Chinese emperor who asked his resident Wise Man, for a special occasion, to come up with a phrase that would always be true, anytime, anywhere? The sage thought a long time and finally came up with "This too shall pass." Well, I think I have another one: "People here can't drive for s**t!" Seriously, it's true for cars and it's true for bikes. It's true everywhere I've been. I'm sure it was true back in the days of horse-drawn chariots, and I'm pretty sure it'll still be true when we're all flying around in jet packs. But I ramble....
I understand your frustration -- and I'm certainly not judging you -- but you do understand that you lost the moral high ground when you slapped the guy's truck, right? We win by superhuman poise and patience. Getting his plate # and sending the e-mail was excellent.
Speaking of excellent: way to go on two years of commuting!
You may now continue to kick ass! :D
Savas
People do illegal and unethical things on a daily basis, regardless of rules or penalty threats. Automobile drivers cut each other off and jockey for position on a three lane road as they obnoxiously speed way past the limit. Many push themselves beyond their driving capability or perhaps while impaired. Nothing you or I can do about it. So to take the lane on your bike and expect that they will respect your slow-moving butt and go around you is basically asking for it. And bicycie demonstrators who ride illegally and unethically in masses that disrupt traffic trying to make a point creates animosity that does the daily lone bike rider more harm than good.
kb0tnv
People do illegal and unethical things on a daily basis, regardless of rules or penalty threats. Automobile drivers cut each other off and jockey for position on a three lane road as they obnoxiously speed way past the limit. Many push themselves beyond their driving capability or perhaps while impaired. Nothing you or I can do about it. So to take the lane on your bike and expect that they will respect your slow-moving butt and go around you is basically asking for it. And bicycie demonstrators who ride illegally and unethically in masses that disrupt traffic trying to make a point creates animosity that does the daily lone bike rider more harm than good.
I hope you didn't think I took the whole lane? I was on the very right edge to the left of the white line. It is a lane that can be shared by most vehicles including trucks. I know people do crazy things. Part of this was just to vent (bottom half). I don't plan on doing this again in the future. I will be just getting the license plate number and moving on. If I get grazzed or something more serious I will be calling the police in a heart beat. I just get fed up with people who think that they can just drive with reckless abandon and not treat cyclists with more respect. I know you have to give respect to get respect. I would have done better if they would have honked and moved out of the way. But this time they didn't and just speeded past me without any regard for safety. We have a "safe passing" law for cyclists on the books. If I needed to I could have called the police and stuck the law on them. I figured it would be just easier to get a letter sent reminding them of cyclists "Lawful Right to the Road".
Peace,
JJ
heckflosse
$10,000. Is that right?
That's less than the cost of a new car :eek:
nova
$10,000. Is that right?
That's less than the cost of a new car :eek:
Just be glad compensation for loss of limb isnt the material value of the limb heh. Human boddy is something like 20 bucks worth of water and chemicals.
The 10k is just the fines from the city on top of jail time if applicable. Not a limit on law suit setlements from the family of the victom or punishment for manslaughter. They will also get ticketed for speeding with fines doubled etc. Speeding in a construction zone/detour here can get you acouple 1000 in fines when its all said and done.
Dahon.Steve
I am wanting peoples thoughts regarding these constructions signs I see here in MO. They state, "Kill a construction worker and pay $10,000 or 14 yrs in jail". I think we need to UPDATE these with the same thing the construction workers have. The "$10,000 fine or 14 yrs in jail". Maybe that will make people "wake up and smell the coffee".
First, these signs would be nice if they worked. They don't. The mortorist is too aggressive today and traffic too congested for anyone to slow down. Besides, the courts will probably convict the driver and he'll be out on the streets in 2-3 years and the fine will never be paid.
The Seldom Kill
I'm all in favour of more draconian laws and penalties for driving but such signage tends only to reinforce hostility from drivers to cyclists.
noisebeam
I know its obvious, but its the law that needs to change, not the sign to meet you goal.
As to the close pass: you mention you were on the right edge of the road as it could be shared. But could it really be shared with a large truck? Would they have had to drive right on or over the dividing line so as not to close pass you?
Al
scarry
Last month was my anniversary of commuting 2 yrs! 2005 I hope to put in the most miles ever!
Keep Cycling! :)
Right on. :)
scarry
People do illegal and unethical things on a daily basis, regardless of rules or penalty threats. Automobile drivers cut each other off and jockey for position on a three lane road as they obnoxiously speed way past the limit. Many push themselves beyond their driving capability or perhaps while impaired. Nothing you or I can do about it. So to take the lane on your bike and expect that they will respect your slow-moving butt and go around you is basically asking for it. And bicycie demonstrators who ride illegally and unethically in masses that disrupt traffic trying to make a point creates animosity that does the daily lone bike rider more harm than good.
Stay in the back of the bus.
slagjumper
Hey I think that I am worth more than 10K!
Mostly the construction people I see are working in sites that are advertised with many orange signs, and speed reduction signs, etc. It is just not the same as your basic car kill a bike accident. What if the biker had no rear light? I hate cars and think that all who drive regularly have succumed to weakness and lazy-tude not to mention rat-race do it for the man kinda internalized oppression. People need to stand up and say I am tired as hell and not going to take it anymore!
Screw critical mass, (which I participate in regularly) we need legal mass rides that inhibit the flow of other legal traffic a bit. We need a unified "guilt" website with all certified bike deaths. You know each death would have a few photos, a bio, the "story" the legal outcome (or lack of). It is like bicyclists are being sent to the coliseum every day. Instead of lions and prisoners doing the killing it is cars.
We might even need real protests, that would involve standing around city hall, catchy slogans and such. What about a million bike march to DC?
sbhikes
They've added "Fines doubled" signs to the school zone signs on the street where I live. The street also has traffic calming bumps. Traffic is still going 35 or more.
Last night on the news it was all about 3 football players killed in a car crash and a little girl out trick-or-treating who was run over and killed by a car. And yet people still drive like they do. Nobody cares and nothing seems capable of getting them to care.
joejack951
Nobody cares and nothing seems capable of getting them to care.
Because cars are absolutely, unquestionably, necessary. They are like oxygen. Sure, oxygen could kill someone, but you'd die without it too. Same deal with cars :rolleyes:
When questioned about bike safety, I often like to point out the constant news of automobile accident deaths. Very few people are actually phased by these though. It's scary.
joejack951
A moderately trafficked country road near me has "Share the Road" signs every 1/2 mile or so. I've encountered more irrate drivers on that stretch of road than any other road near me.
Dahon.Steve
A moderately trafficked country road near me has "Share the Road" signs every 1/2 mile or so. I've encountered more irrate drivers on that stretch of road than any other road near me.
Agreed.
The put up "Share the Road" signs after a cyclist got killed. That road is still ugly and fast because the only thing the motorist understands are red traffic lights.
Savas
Stay in the back of the bus.
So it's a civil rights issue?
Car driving ****** bags crash into each other. They overrun sidwalks and mow down pedestrians. Car drivers can be darn ornery. You can't do anything to prevent the unpredictable, so being cautious and yielding is the only way. It's like running with the bulls.
genec
Because cars are absolutely, unquestionably, necessary. They are like oxygen. Sure, oxygen could kill someone, but you'd die without it too. Same deal with cars :rolleyes:
When questioned about bike safety, I often like to point out the constant news of automobile accident deaths. Very few people are actually phased by these though. It's scary.
As "absolutely, unquestionably, necessary" as autos may appear to be... why are they so unbelievably overpowered? Who really needs a 350+HP vehicle to drive to the office? Who needs to do 0-60 in seconds... Why, when our maximum national speed limit hovers around 65 MPH, do autos have the ability to go to 130MPH+.
All this excess power requires excess fuel... and coupled with the wonderful full coccoon protection systems... all this power in the hands of some is just asking for trouble. Frankly there is not any sort of psycological testing required for anyone that holds a drivers license... Nor any testing that evaluates whether someone has the skills to handle some of today's autos. Usually those latter determinations come about through the sad death of someone.
kb0tnv
As "absolutely, unquestionably, necessary" as autos may appear to be... why are they so unbelievably overpowered? Who really needs a 350+HP vehicle to drive to the office? Who needs to do 0-60 in seconds... Why, when our maximum national speed limit hovers around 65 MPH, do autos have the ability to go to 130MPH+.
All this excess power requires excess fuel... and coupled with the wonderful full coccoon protection systems... all this power in the hands of some is just asking for trouble. Frankly there is not any sort of psycological testing required for anyone that holds a drivers license... Nor any testing that evaluates whether someone has the skills to handle some of today's autos. Usually those latter determinations come about through the sad death of someone.
I agree with you about the 130mph. I don't know why their isn't some governer or system in place to keep them to a more practicle 80 or 90mph. They only need to be able to pass. They aren't squad cars. And wouldn't it be nice in a police chase that the cop cars could catch up to them since they can only go 90 mph!? What a concept. If you want to drive fast become an Indy driver. Other than that for public safety everyone should have a car that can't do more than a few miles or so over the national max. speed limit.
Regarding the psychological testing. That would require more time, money and red tape but I could see it as important. Plus they should ask questions and video tape people's responses. Some of the questions are like: When you see a cyclist do you slow down or do you speed up? When you see a pedestrian do you slow down or speed up? Do cyclists have the same rights to the road as you? What do the "Share the Road" signs mean to you? etc... I think people just memorize the answers to the test and do their best to pass to get their license. We need to have people retest every 10 yrs or so to make sure they are in the know. Signs and some of the laws do change. This is a fast food mentality nation and they want to get their license quick. However it should be the same as getting a weapons license. Their vehicle is like a weapon that can kill and mame. It needs more serious requirements and stricter measurements to make sure we are not just giving licenses away like Halloween Candy to any "bubba" that shows up with a good joke and cool costume.
My .02
Keep Cycling,
Dchiefransom
They've added "Fines doubled" signs to the school zone signs on the street where I live. The street also has traffic calming bumps. Traffic is still going 35 or more.
Last night on the news it was all about 3 football players killed in a car crash and a little girl out trick-or-treating who was run over and killed by a car. And yet people still drive like they do. Nobody cares and nothing seems capable of getting them to care.
Some highly publicized jail sentences, even 2-4 years, would start opening eyes. These would be jail terms for accidents that up to now were brushed off as "accidents", or where the driver had no "intent".
budster
Because cars are absolutely, unquestionably, necessary. ...
Why? Because US Americans are "absolutely, unquestionably" lazy and unimaginative?
Y'know -- I think that's actually it. :)
At risk of pissing you off,
A moderately trafficked country road near me has "Share the Road" signs every 1/2 mile or so. I've encountered more irrate drivers on that stretch of road than any other road near me.
In science, we call this the "false causation" fallacy, the idea that X and Y occur together, so X must cause Y. Sometimes Y causes X, or Z causes both X and Y. Usually, the signs are there in response to the irate drivers. The signs aren't the problem; they're an attempt to make things a little better. And they do help.
I don't mean to pick on you. I do like your point about cars being more at risk than bikes:
... When questioned about bike safety, I often like to point out the constant news of automobile accident deaths. Very few people are actually phased by these though. It's scary.
So true.
joejack951
At risk of pissing you off,
In science, we call this the "false causation" fallacy, the idea that X and Y occur together, so X must cause Y. Sometimes Y causes X, or Z causes both X and Y. Usually, the signs are there in response to the irate drivers. The signs aren't the problem; they're an attempt to make things a little better. And they do help.
You won't piss me off because I wasn't actually trying to blame Y on X :) I was just pointing it out for those who may think that the signs always work. When I was less than prepared to drive but was (when I turned 16) I used to think "Share the Road" signs meant that bicyclists were allowed on that section of road. So, worst case, those signs do alert people that they might see bicycles in the roadway. I personally love seeing them as it's a sign that the state/county realizes that people do want to cycle in that area. On multiple occassions though, one of those signs has been clearly in front of us when a car goes past and tells me to get on the sidewalk/bikepath (which are non-existant for the most part where I am anyway).
budster
You won't piss me off because I wasn't actually trying to blame Y on X :) I was just pointing it out for those who may think that the signs always work. When I was less than prepared to drive but was (when I turned 16) I used to think "Share the Road" signs meant that bicyclists were allowed on that section of road. So, worst case, those signs do alert people that they might see bicycles in the roadway. I personally love seeing them as it's a sign that the state/county realizes that people do want to cycle in that area. On multiple occassions though, one of those signs has been clearly in front of us when a car goes past and tells me to get on the sidewalk/bikepath (which are non-existant for the most part where I am anyway).
Yeah, you're right: signs don't fix the problem. I do think they help, but clearly we need better. Sometimes I wonder just what would make drivers behave like human beings, specifically in relation to cyclists. I imagine if police on bikes rode a road constantly, that'd do it, but how likely is that?
I guess we've just got to keep plugging (and pedalling) away....
webist
During this morning's ride I stopped counting at 200, all the vehicles which went by me without incident.
gboy
During this morning's ride I stopped counting at 200, all the vehicles which went by me without incident.
I don't have a problem with cars and trucks passing me in the same lane in the same direction of travel, but on several two-lane highways I had cars passing "slow-moving" trucks from the other direction in my occupied lane. I find it hard to imagine what kind of person is crazy and impatient enough to do such a thing when I'm staring straight at them while they're doing this.
nova
During this morning's ride I stopped counting at 200, all the vehicles which went by me without incident.
Sure but it only takes 1 idiot out of a 1000 10000 100000 to kill you. Ill asume you counted cars for only 20 minutes in a 2 hour ride. So thats only 1200 cars that passed you if the trafic amount was constant. Obviously you changed roads during those 2 hours and did not ride back and forth on the same road. Had you done so result would have been very diffrent. You might have had up to say 4 close buzzes by cars.This is going by what i see in my area. Its generaly about 1 car in a 1000 or so that pass me way to close on one stretch of road. Problem is when possible i travel that streth 6 times a day (3 one way 3 the other) Its on my 3x a day 7 mile round trip work out ride. I have aprox 2 to 3 cars daily that pass me way to close. It doesnt matter where i am on the road for at least 1 of the 3. I can be center of lane far right far left or any where in between and still at least 1 of those 3 will move over just enough to pass me.
Over the winter im going to try and get the city and county to mark this road as a bike route and put up some share the road signs. Where i live i have no choice but to take this road to get to silvercreek. To take any other would mean going about 5 miles in the wrong direction then another 5 to 7 along other more friendly roads. Not a bad thing exactly and ive done it a few times for a fun run. But for a work out ride this just wont do. I like to just push myself to my absolute limit in the park some times doing multiple laps in the park before heading back home. I live exactly 1 mile from the park so it lets me realy push my self hard as that 1 mile is all up hill to the park and all down on the way back (very slight hill but if im totaly beat its big enough that i can caost home).
So a bike route along jhonson road and share the road signs might help some. Maybe ill only get 1 retard aday instead of 3 heh.