View Full Version : kid-car free till 18
vrkelley
11-05-05, 03:40 PM
My son just got his wings clipped. He got his 2nd speeding ticket which automatially means he's car-free till 18. My take on it? There's your bike...here's the bus routes...enjoy.
He'll be car-free for 2.5months... That's cramping his social life style...Any suggestions for helping a kid do car-free through the winter months?
Wool hat. Riding in winter, as well as waiting for bus, can get pretty chilly at times.
dosoner
11-05-05, 04:41 PM
up the time till he's 20
I probably couldn't muster much sympathy for him, if he was my kid. Hang in there, vr, they'll be growed soon!
I hope he's the eldest, so the younger ones learn from his goofups. :)
vrkelley
11-05-05, 06:46 PM
I probably couldn't muster much sympathy for him, if he was my kid. Hang in there, vr, they'll be growed soon!
+1 No sorrow on my part...Any kid that's clocked at 96mph...gets what he gets. Unfortunately, it's been raining since the 'event'.
Mtn Mike
11-05-05, 07:50 PM
By reading the thread name, I thought you ment your kid wont get a license at all until 18, which seemed pretty unreasonable. But, in you and your kids case, I think he'll be able to tough it out for a few months. :D
CommuterRun
11-05-05, 11:05 PM
SealSkinz are nice, warm, gloves. He might want a pair.
karmical
11-05-05, 11:31 PM
Any kid that's clocked at 96mph...
96mph, he should feel lucky he's able to still use the bike...
ArizonaAdam
11-06-05, 02:39 AM
I'm suprised you let him get a second ticket. I rode to school from the time I could ride until, well, still. He'll live, though he may not see it that way. BTW, that must destroy your insurance rates.
Did anybody read the recent reports (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52687-2005Jan31.html?sub=AR) that adolescent brains make it pretty much impossible for them to be good drivers? The frontal cortex, which is involved in complex planning and judgment (both obviously important in driving), is usually not fully developed until age 19 - 21.
Teaching a 16-year-old to drive is kind of like teaching a 2-year-old to tie his shoes. In both cases, their brains just aren't up to the task yet.
vrkelley
11-06-05, 09:18 AM
He's racing to get to the bus and get to work on time...learning to schedule time.
Yesterday, I showed him how to use the car pump to add air to the tires. Some months back I saw this coming and made him take that bike in to fix the cranks and tune the bike. So the bike is in good shape but...both tires were flat (and there was a spare tube sitting there). Running late to the bus in the rain.
The warm hat and gloves are good ideas. I don't plan on buying anything...just 'giving him the tools to survive'. After he went to bed and his shoes were dried out, I sprayed them with waterproofing.
Although, I'm not totally sure what he'll need yet.
My son just got his wings clipped. He got his 2nd speeding ticket which automatially means he's car-free till 18. My take on it? There's your bike...here's the bus routes...enjoy.
He'll be car-free for 2.5months... That's cramping his social life style...Any suggestions for helping a kid do car-free through the winter months?
No sympathy. Never had a car, grew up without one. Every time he complains, remind him that his irresponsible behaviour caused this, and that there would be much more cramping of his social life if he was in a wheelchair, or in jail.
Heck, when my cousin got a speeding ticket at 17 he lost the rights to the family car in perpetuity.
Mtn Mike
11-06-05, 12:56 PM
Did anybody read the recent reports (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52687-2005Jan31.html?sub=AR) that adolescent brains make it pretty much impossible for them to be good drivers? The frontal cortex, which is involved in complex planning and judgment (both obviously important in driving), is usually not fully developed until age 19 - 21.
Teaching a 16-year-old to drive is kind of like teaching a 2-year-old to tie his shoes. In both cases, their brains just aren't up to the task yet.
I read the article in the Post, and it's interesting. But I'd be very skeptical when anyone starts to assume the just one area of the brain is solely responsible for a complex cognitive task. An activity like driving, and for that matter cycling, requires input from every single area of the brain. Of course parts of the human brain develop at different rates, that's a given, but here's the catch...while one cognitive area is still developing, another might be at it's peak, and when one area is reduced in function, another is capable of taking over. As the author states at the beginning of the article, "teens muscles are supple, their reflexes quick, their senses at a lifetime peak". This has got to count for something. I'm not saying that teens are good drivers, but I think we can blame their poor driving skills on good old fashion teenage stupidity, and lack of practice, not lack of brain development. just my 2 cents :D
humancongereel
11-06-05, 01:49 PM
don't forget male ego...gotta be the fastest. people hate it when i pass them on a bike. someone sped up the other day because i passed them and nearly hit the car in front of them that was going at the speed limit. i would have laughed so hard...see where your stupid teenage male ego gets you. i half hope people like that get seriously hurt or seriously hurt someone just to get them in trouble/the hospital and teach them a lesson about why you drive with others on the road in mind.
96 mph? no sympathy. kid could've seriously hurt someone. if was going to go that fast, i doubt he's looking out. what if one of us had been riding our bike on that road? no sympathy at all. no car at all is my advice. some people just don't belong on the road with a 3000 pound potentially deadly hunk of metal.
I read the article in the Post, and it's interesting. But I'd be very skeptical when anyone starts to assume the just one area of the brain is solely responsible for a complex cognitive task. An activity like driving, and for that matter cycling, requires input from every single area of the brain. Of course parts of the human brain develop at different rates, that's a given, but here's the catch...while one cognitive area is still developing, another might be at it's peak, and when one area is reduced in function, another is capable of taking over. As the author states at the beginning of the article, "teens muscles are supple, their reflexes quick, their senses at a lifetime peak". This has got to count for something. I'm not saying that teens are good drivers, but I think we can blame their poor driving skills on good old fashion teenage stupidity, and lack of practice, not lack of brain development. just my 2 cents :D
Well, "good old fashion teen stupidity" probably is related to brain development. And the high rate of teen accidents, compared to all other age groups (even the elderly), suggests that their other attributes, like good perception and fast reaction times, do not make up for their relative lack of judgment.
I think it's only a matter of time before driving age limits are raised to 18.
I hope that everybody realizes that this is not a slam against young people. Each age group possesses strengths and weaknesses, and of course, not every individual within a group shares every trait or attribute. Some adolescents are good drivers even if their brains are not fully developed, but many are not.
vrkelley
11-06-05, 03:56 PM
Driving has changed drastically from when my grandparents drove.
They said that most roads were dirt or 2-lane paved and people didn't go more than say 40mph. There were no super-highways and few intersections etc. Guess the cars couldn't go that fast...and there were a lot less on the road.
Since driving is more demanding, they probably should raise the age or just get rid of cars for non-essential travel.
I love when scientists do experiments to prove things that we already know. Shock horror! Teens are bad drivers?!?! Oh, my, what a surprise. NOT!
Next thing ya know, they'll be doing experiments telling us that eating too much and not exercising will make you fat. Or that throwing yourself off a cliff might harm your health.
You don't pay your kid's insurance do you?
I don't think I plan on ever paying for car insurance for my kids, but you can bet that if they get any tickets, they're paying for any insurance increases. And if they don't pay, no insurance, and no driving.
Elvish Legion
11-07-05, 08:14 AM
Tell him to suck it up and he shoulda thought about it :p. If a car cramps his style, he either
A) has the wrong style
B) Has the wrong friends
I don't have a car, I have access to one sure, but I rarely have to use it, doesn't hurt me any, and I'm 17
I don't think I plan on ever paying for car insurance for my kids...
Protect them from evil and all that crap. The more you shelter them the harder they fall, and all their friends will only think of you as a cheap *******, making it worse. Think about if you really want your kids to get a motorcycle instead because the insurance is so much cheaper :D. I speak from personal experience. motorcycle safety foundation course next weekend. Can anyone say zoom zoom? :p My little brother is thinking about doing the same thing, only he wants a dual sport and I'm too short for them so if I get one it would probably be a street bike instead.
don't forget male ego...gotta be the fastest....
I've developed a new "ego": be the most efficient.
Slow down to 80 or 90km/h. (about 55mph) versus doing 110km/h... you burn something like 25% less fuel - and may arrive at the same time as you would have given lights and traffic.
Those signs that say "Save a life - slow down" always make me laugh.
SLOW DOWN - SAVE MONEY.
BTW: car hasn't sold yet but if/when it does, I'll be REALLY efficient riding on noodle power.
(admittedly, I drove like a nut when I was a teen. Fortunately I learned before hurting someone)
vrkelley
11-07-05, 01:17 PM
Agree with Lauren. We pay the base rate...and if the insurance goes up due to speeding or whatever, he pays the extra or no wheels. That way there's no illegal driving.
Agree with Lauren. We pay the base rate...and if the insurance goes up due to speeding or whatever, he pays the extra or no wheels. That way there's no illegal driving.
That's the way to do it IMO.
Cherry Bomb
11-07-05, 01:52 PM
Agree with Lauren. We pay the base rate...and if the insurance goes up due to speeding or whatever, he pays the extra or no wheels. That way there's no illegal driving.
With my kids, I don't even pay the base rate. The insurance company tells me how much the insurance is for just my husband and I, and then the amount with each of the kids added. Then the difference between my true insurance cost and the total insurance cost is paid by the kids. Basically, no job, no money, no access to a vehicle.
Cherry Bomb
sydney_b
11-07-05, 02:06 PM
You don't pay your kid's insurance do you?
I don't think I plan on ever paying for car insurance for my kids, but you can bet that if they get any tickets, they're paying for any insurance increases. And if they don't pay, no insurance, and no driving.
Me either. Kids know they have to foot that bill themselves. Son has been studying up on ways to get the lowest rate.
I'm not criticizing or flaming, just wondering. . . .
Do any of you on the Carfree forum have kids who are carfree? I mean, it seems like everybody is talking about car insurance for their kids. Does it make sense to not let teens drive at all, maybe until they finish high school, or are able to pay for car and insurance themselves?
Do your kids think you're crazy because you don't drive? Do you think they will follow in your footsteps (or bike tiretracks)? What gives with the youth of today?
henryblowery
11-07-05, 05:03 PM
"Do any of you on the Carfree forum have kids who are carfree? I mean, it seems like everybody is talking about car insurance for their kids."
You have to have insurance to get a lisence. How many of ya'll that are carfree don't have a drivers lisence? I plan on getting my lisence when I'm 16 and will be expected to pay my insurance but theres no way I'm going to own a car(sorry I'm no writer :( )
Gray
Blackberry
11-07-05, 05:50 PM
Well, I guess I'll sound like the curmudgeon i probably am--but I didn't have wheels until I could pay for the car and the insurance. Since I already had a ton of college bills, I didn't buy a car until I was 23. it was a 1965 Pontiac that I bought in 1978 for $450 cash. Somehow I survived all those without a car. In fact, life seemed just fine.
I distinctly remember that I had no insurance until several hours after I got my license.
I'm pretty sure that, in alaska at least, one could get a license and not have insurance. You'd just have to refrain from driving. I think you could drive in that situation, though, if you paid for a car rental which included liability insurance.
vrkelley
11-07-05, 08:01 PM
Car-free would be nice but it'll be a long time before we're free of gasoline-based equipment.
My take on it is that I want my kid to learn to drive/ride many types of vehicles and also power equipment. As many as possible. skateboard, in-line blades, ski-ing...Mowers, mini bikes, cars including stick-shift and bikes.
Elvish Legion
11-07-05, 08:43 PM
I'm not criticizing or flaming, just wondering. . . .
Do any of you on the Carfree forum have kids who are carfree? I mean, it seems like everybody is talking about car insurance for their kids. Does it make sense to not let teens drive at all, maybe until they finish high school, or are able to pay for car and insurance themselves?
Do your kids think you're crazy because you don't drive? Do you think they will follow in your footsteps (or bike tiretracks)? What gives with the youth of today?
I'm a high school student, and while I was given a car I didn't want it, never used it, and sold it. I live car free, it is much easier on the wallet (still looking for a job)
Elvish
I'm a high school student also... also in seattle just like vrkelley's kid. I'd be out of any opportunity to use a car if I got one speeding ticket and two, well then the law outside of my parents would step in. Your son's definitely going to be fine riding a bike, at least for a while. As for the social life; I've got a job and a sihtload of other stuff to do and riding a bike only seems to enhance the fun I can have leeching off of my parents for the next and last year of my youth. He deserves what he got and he'll be fine.
p.s. I drive about once every couple months and I see my self very competent behind the wheel, but I guess my inferior brain isn't as developed as that of an adult.
p.p.s. Any grown ass men/women who get two speeding tickets need their licenses taken away for a while too.
"Do any of you on the Carfree forum have kids who are carfree? I mean, it seems like everybody is talking about car insurance for their kids."
You have to have insurance to get a lisence. How many of ya'll that are carfree don't have a drivers lisence? I plan on getting my lisence when I'm 16 and will be expected to pay my insurance but theres no way I'm going to own a car(sorry I'm no writer :( )
Gray
I have heard that in some states you must have insurance to get a license. Here in Michigan, and most other states, I think, that is not the case. I have had a valid DL for more than 30 years, only had a car for half that time, and insurance for less than half. :o Here, you do have to have insurance ("no fault") in order to register a car and must maintain insurance to drive it legally.
Most places, you can get an official state ID card that is accepted for check cashing, alcohol and tobacco purchases, etc.
(BTW, I think you write OK. Better than some of the old folks. :))
I'm a high school student also... also in seattle just like vrkelley's kid. I'd be out of any opportunity to use a car if I got one speeding ticket and two, well then the law outside of my parents would step in. Your son's definitely going to be fine riding a bike, at least for a while. As for the social life; I've got a job and a sihtload of other stuff to do and riding a bike only seems to enhance the fun I can have leeching off of my parents for the next and last year of my youth. He deserves what he got and he'll be fine.
p.s. I drive about once every couple months and I see my self very competent behind the wheel, but I guess my inferior brain isn't as developed as that of an adult.
p.p.s. Any grown ass men/women who get two speeding tickets need their licenses taken away for a while too.
All true. And at least you can hold onto the hope that your "inferior brain" will still develop. It's all downhill for us "grown ass" people!
Roody, its obvious you haven't spent much time around college students. The ones that party the hardest freshman year? Unquestionably the ones that were sheltered the most as a kid. The more freedom they have at home, the less **** they get into later. I didn't get into much trouble as an undergrad because if I did my parents would have pulled out what financial support I did get, but now that I'm a grad student it's a different story. :D Within my first semester I've already gotten more piercings, and will probably have a motorcycle and tattoo before it's all finished.
Lauren-
you responded to my post where i said i would not pay for insurance for my kids, saying
Protect them from evil and all that crap. The more you shelter them the harder they fall
That's not my intent at all. I don't have kids, (and i'm only 22) but I intend to in a few years, and I don't intend to protect them from much of anything not involving death or disability. I won't protect them from their own expenses. I don't intend to pay for insurance for myself-- why should they get insurance on my dime? To me, the sheltered kid is the one who doesn't have to do stuff for him/herself, like pay if he has car insurance, start covering some of her own expenses when she's old enough to work, or waste his time in school because it isn't his job paying for those classrooms and teachers.
My parents still pay for car insurance for me, and I drive occasionally but if my driving required my paying for insurance, I'd quit driving. I suggested they could stop paying for my insurance, and they didn't want to.
henryblowery
11-08-05, 02:54 PM
"To me, the sheltered kid is the one who doesn't have to do stuff for him/herself"
I agree, sometimes I complain when I have to do stuff but I know its for the best.
lauren, what school do you go to?
Gray
lauren, what school do you go to?
Gray
UNC
I still think that if a kid doesn't have a chance to drive as much when they are at home, they will learn driving habits from their friends. Same thing happened to me with bicycles. I got really involved as a student and learned from the racers and wanna-bes. If my parents knew what I did on a bicycle they'd blow a coronary. The same thing might happen when I one day get a car. I could definitely see myself getting a small hatchback and learning to do my own work by modding it (once I've got enough money for that sort of thing). If you don't let them get supervised experience they will learn from their friends instead. I doubt that's what most parents want.
henryblowery
11-08-05, 06:57 PM
"UNC" :(
Go Wolf Pack :)
I don't beleave that it's in my parents job discription to pay car insurance for 3 kids. Nobodys stoping me from getting a lisence and driving I just have to pay for it.
Oh, and don't get the tattoo mabe the motorcycle but not the tattoo.
Gray
"UNC" :(
Go Wolf Pack :)
I'm a NCSU student too! Joint department (double your paperwork, double your pain).
The celtic cross in a pendant would be my preference, but finding it in something that I can wear without getting hives has been impossible so far. My stainless allergy might prevent me from getting the tatt too, since that's what the needles are made out of (sigh, wish I could find more stuff in Ti).
henryblowery
11-09-05, 06:34 AM
Sorry for getting off topic. I'm with the people that said he'll live.
Gray
humancongereel
11-09-05, 05:16 PM
I got really involved as a student and learned from the racers and wanna-bes. If my parents knew what I did on a bicycle they'd blow a coronary.
me, too, but i also learned habits from messengers, which offers a unique combination of safety and riding very dangerously...ride fast, weave in and out of traffic, don't stop if you don't have to and don't slow down too much while you're checking BUT keep your eyes open, watch for doors on parked cars, pay attention to what drivers are doing even a few cars down, be on the defensive all the time...there are certain habits i'm trying to break, by riding more vc and paying attention to traffic laws (i have idaho's memorized now). i remember riding with a friend in portland who was going by the max train as it started moving, and he just sped up to get in front of it faster. breaking habits like that.
anyway. yes. my parents wouldn't be happy with how i ride...
Katrogen
11-11-05, 09:54 PM
I'm a 17 year old that has a permit that is expiring. Its a complete waste of time, I didn't even have to take Driver's Ed training but I did for the heck of it. We were living out in the country/suburbs and I needed to transport myself back and forth.
Now that I live in the city I have entertained myself with the bike all year. I will never get a car in this convenience. My parents are pushing a liscence on me and want to get a car but I refuse. Its so much more convenient on a bike. Especially money-wise as I don't want a job either.
primaryreality
11-12-05, 07:01 AM
I'm not criticizing or flaming, just wondering. . . .
Do any of you on the Carfree forum have kids who are carfree? I mean, it seems like everybody is talking about car insurance for their kids. Does it make sense to not let teens drive at all, maybe until they finish high school, or are able to pay for car and insurance themselves?
Do your kids think you're crazy because you don't drive? Do you think they will follow in your footsteps (or bike tiretracks)? What gives with the youth of today?
My son is 19, does not have a driver's license, rides his bicycle to work, to college, everywhere. He dreams sometimes, I think, of getting a motorcycle--and I think he'll do that, eventually--but he's a college student with a part time job. The costs involved with any form of motorized transportation are, right now, out of his reach, and I have neither the means nor the desire to help him with that.
I think my example of car-free living has partly been responsible for helping him to see that getting around by bike is possible, practical and reasonable. He certainly doesn't think I'm crazy. He also takes long rides with me, for fun, when he has time, which isn't too often these days with his work and school schedule. But I firmly believe he's better for the experience of being car-free, and healthier overall for all the exercise that he might not otherwise be getting. His girlfriend and some of his friends have cars, so it doesn't cramp his social style so far as I can see.
My daughter, a couple of years older, has a car that she bought and paid for herself while she was still in high school; her dad still pays for her insurance. She will always be car-dependent, I think. Different strokes--and that's fine, but they pay for it themselves, as far as I'm concerned.
New2Cycling
11-12-05, 01:54 PM
Car-free would be nice but it'll be a long time before we're free of gasoline-based equipment.
My take on it is that I want my kid to learn to drive/ride many types of vehicles and also power equipment. As many as possible. skateboard, in-line blades, ski-ing...Mowers, mini bikes, cars including stick-shift and bikes.
Quite honestly, I think having your kid bike to different places will be a good learning experience.
pdxbikelover
11-12-05, 11:50 PM
i am plaing to be car free as long as i can and i am only 16. the only reasone i would get a liscince is if my friends get hammered and cant drive or somthing
Protect them from evil and all that crap. The more you shelter them the harder they fall, and all their friends will only think of you as a cheap *******, making it worse. Think about if you really want your kids to get a motorcycle instead because the insurance is so much cheaper :D. I speak from personal experience. motorcycle safety foundation course next weekend. Can anyone say zoom zoom? :p My little brother is thinking about doing the same thing, only he wants a dual sport and I'm too short for them so if I get one it would probably be a street bike instead.
The sad part is the impetus to operate a motor vehicle exists in the first place. Teach the kid self reliance and efficiancy and they probably won't need to show off to their friends. Better to ask for a ride in case of need or want than to be a total tool.
I'm a 17 year old that has a permit that is expiring. Its a complete waste of time, I didn't even have to take Driver's Ed training but I did for the heck of it. We were living out in the country/suburbs and I needed to transport myself back and forth.
Now that I live in the city I have entertained myself with the bike all year. I will never get a car in this convenience. My parents are pushing a liscence on me and want to get a car but I refuse. Its so much more convenient on a bike. Especially money-wise as I don't want a job either.
As evidenced in this forum, a lot of people will strongly urge you to go ahead and get the license irregardless of your plans. I think this is particular to America, or perhaps North America. There seems to be a huge link, in the thinking of these places, between freedom and motor vehicle. Thankfully this link is not a great truth, as evidenced by most of the rest of the world.
Guess I am just saying good for you, and always do what you think best while still considering the wisdom of others. You can be carfree in more places than the city, too. I personally find self contained, small towns to be the most fun to live in.
Within my first semester I've already gotten more piercings, and will probably have a motorcycle and tattoo before it's all finished.
They say about tattoos, 'Welcome to your new addiction.' I went from never thinking I would get a tattoo to having two now, and plans for probably at least one more. Figure they look good while your body is maintained, if you place them right no one has to see them, and by the time you are old and they look bad, you don't car anymore. Though my father, I believe, regrets some of his tattoos. I have not reached that point yet.
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