Advocacy & Safety - Attitudes toward cyclists

I had two negative experiences over the past few days which enticed me to do some more serious research into what drivers are actually thinking and the origin of these attitudes (which predate Critical Mass, which started in 1992, so no flaming on this issue). Yesterday I was doored by some driver flying out of his car like he'd just consumed a box of laxatives and this driver asked me what the hell I was doing in the street. Today I had to slam on the brakes to avoid a collision with some young chick who impulsely made a U turn into my path. I looked at her face- she was smiling. I see people smile sometimes after they do something stupid or dangerous which causes me to almost bite it. So, I have been searching the web for concrete info on what these driving delinquents are actually thinking. I couldn't find any info on American attitudes- but I found some rather startling results from Britian on British drivers' opinions of cyclists. Get this- Britian is supposed to be light years ahead on tollerance of cyclists. It just confirmed what I already was guessing- that bicyclists are assumed to be too poor to drive, that they are a nuissance and need to be taught a lesson, so on and so forth. So here's the data:

1) Cycling Motorists and how to encourage them’.

Published by the AA. 1993.

This report looked at the attitudes of individuals who were either motorists or motorists who on occasion were also cyclists.

As you might expect from such an organisation much of this report is used to press the AA’s view that more should be spent on road maintenance and that cyclists should dress like Christmas trees so myopic drivers can ‘see ‘ them. However, it does contain some interesting figures. It found:

10% of motorists think cyclists cycle because they are too poor to have a car.

30% of motorists considered cyclists to be a ‘nuisance’.

65% agreed with the statement ‘Most drivers would rather cyclists were not on the roads at all’.

58% of motorists who also cycled were concerned about the attitudes of motorists to them when they were cycling.

The AA report concludes;

‘Some motorists are inconsiderate and have negative attitudes towards cyclists.’

‘Cyclists are often the underdogs of the road- seen as such by both motorists and cyclists themselves. Some motorists don’t like them because they feel they hold up traffic; pedestrians don’t like sharing paths with them because they travel too fast. this gives the impression that cyclists are unwelcome on the roads and off the roads...’

The report also found that 83% of motorists said that nothing would entice them to ride a bike again...

The report also found that the more pro cycling you were the higher your socio-economic groups was likely to be. In general committed cyclists were better paid than committed motorists, a reversal of what some drivers believed.

There is more to that article than just those statistics. For further reading go to:
http://www.thebikezone.org.uk/thebikezone/campaigning/attitudesresearch.html

Yesterday I was doored by some driver flying out of his car like he'd just consumed a box of laxatives and this driver asked me what the hell I was doing in the street.

Today I had to slam on the brakes to avoid a collision with some young chick who impulsely made a U turn into my path. I looked at her face- she was smiling.
--- The driver who doored you figured his best defense was a rude offense.
The chick who U-turned you has probably gotten a lot of mileage with her smile.
The British Automobile Association study was very surprising and revealing. We bicycling advocates in the USA have our work cut out for us.

---
The chick who U-turned you has probably gotten a lot of mileage with her smile.

No, my impression is that this smile was more one of superiority and antagonism. She was a college kid judging by the stickers on her car. Many college kids have tried to get their kicks tormenting local cyclists. Two friends of mine got pelted with eggs outside a fraternity house one evening while riding. They since have sold their bikes because of this and many other problems- mostly lack of cycling infrastructure and harassment. A couple weeks ago a group of college guys were yelling at me- "You're riding a biiiiiiike- looooook at the dumb biker." My gut tells me it is mostly a class/ asserting dominance type issue. This is why this article struck a chord with me. In this city only the poor, extremely environmentally dedicated, or expensive-bike-equipped people hit the roads. Since, unlike other cities, there really isn't a large amount of cyclists, cycling is viewed as something unusual. Mostly people think you are poor or else they just don't get it. They fear it. Not surprising considering Cincinnati's reputation on other issues. That girl probably thought she was doing me a favor almost killing me- she was setting me straight on the idea that biking is stupid and the roads are made for cars.

How did you get doored? Don't you mean you doored yourself by riding in the door zone? Yes, yes, I know, legally the driver is at fault because he's supposed to check that it's safe before he opens his door. But please, do you really count on them doing that? Why not (gosh!) ride outside of the door zone - 5 feet from the side of parked cars, so that you are immune from dooring yourself?

How do you get hit by someone doing a U-turn? That is, which way were they going (at the start of the U turn), and from which direction were you coming? You weren't traveling in the same direction, on the other side of the street, traveling against traffic, were you?

No, my impression is that this smile was more one of superiority and antagonism. She was a college kid judging by the stickers on her car. Many college kids have tried to get their kicks tormenting local cyclists. Two friends of mine got pelted with eggs outside a fraternity house one evening while riding. They since have sold their bikes because of this and many other problems- mostly lack of cycling infrastructure and harassment. A couple weeks ago a group of college guys were yelling at me- "You're riding a biiiiiiike- looooook at the dumb biker." My gut tells me it is mostly a class/ asserting dominance type issue.Putting on my elitist hat for a moment, anybody who's stuck going to college in Cincinnatti has nothing much to be smug about. IMO. Maybe asserting dominance over an "impoverished" bicyclist is one of the few things these idiots can do to compensate for their own shortcomings.

Hopefully I'm not offending any Cincinnati grads here. OK, elitist hat off.

How did you get doored? Don't you mean you doored yourself by riding in the door zone? Yes, yes, I know, legally the driver is at fault because he's supposed to check that it's safe before he opens his door. But please, do you really count on them doing that? Why not (gosh!) ride outside of the door zone - 5 feet from the side of parked cars, so that you are immune from dooring yourself?

How do you get hit by someone doing a U-turn? That is, which way were they going (at the start of the U turn), and from which direction were you coming? You weren't traveling in the same direction, on the other side of the street, traveling against traffic, were you?

He got doored maybe the person doing it was parked way away from the curb? Like the guy who got his door snapped off when he tossed it open who was parked nearly 4 feet from the parking zone. This put his door all but in the middle of the lane. You never considered this problem i guess.

U turn in to a cyclists path very simple. 2 trafic lanes each direction. Idiot motorists in right lane cyclist in next over. Driver does uturn as they possibly see the cyclist cutting them off abrubtly.

You need to stop blaiming the cyclist every time some one has a close call or crash caused by a motorist. VC does not work every where but you simply cant accept this fact. One of these days i fear you will find out the hard way that it doesnt. There have been many confirmed reports of collision from the rear involving a cyclist being hit from behind. All it takes is the driver to be a idiot and dial their cell phone or put on their makeup adjust the radio etc etc etc.

No, my impression is that this smile was more one of superiority and antagonism. She was a college kid judging by the stickers on her car. Many college kids have tried to get their kicks tormenting local cyclists. Two friends of mine got pelted with eggs outside a fraternity house one evening while riding. They since have sold their bikes because of this and many other problems- mostly lack of cycling infrastructure and harassment. A couple weeks ago a group of college guys were yelling at me- "You're riding a biiiiiiike- looooook at the dumb biker." My gut tells me it is mostly a class/ asserting dominance type issue. This is why this article struck a chord with me. In this city only the poor, extremely environmentally dedicated, or expensive-bike-equipped people hit the roads. Since, unlike other cities, there really isn't a large amount of cyclists, cycling is viewed as something unusual. Mostly people think you are poor or else they just don't get it. They fear it. Not surprising considering Cincinnati's reputation on other issues. That girl probably thought she was doing me a favor almost killing me- she was setting me straight on the idea that biking is stupid and the roads are made for cars.
I would go vigilante before giving up my bikes. Every time I get hassled, my natural impulse is to assert my own dominance and teach the punk(s) a hard lesson. But that's a childish impulse and every day I work to rise further above it.

What will help more than anything else is more bikes on the road. We need to ride more, and we need to get together. We need to work together with purpose. The potential for unity is part of why I love this place so much. Pestering our lawmakers (local, state and federal) is also a good idea. But more than anything else -- ride, ride, ride.

Assert your rights and you get to keep them.

OK trite, but this is one reason I have started wearing bright "pro" jerseys... Not the team jerseys but certainly a nice jersey (primal wear). The jersey helps remove the image of down and out and states that I have "chosen" to ride a bike for some other reason other than poor or no driver's license.

Yeah it is a class thing, but I found that I got more recognition and respect from motorists by trying to look like I know what I am doing and that I chose to do it.

Look lets face it, in a world where folks are 2 second judging you by the look and style of vehicle, looking like you are not down and out makes a positive statement.

Don't you mean you doored yourself by riding in the door zone?

Seems I've read this question 50 or 100 times since joining the forums. Always asked by the same poster. Perhaps it should be made a Sticky in a Closed Thread. :)

Where I come from the entire road is a door zone.

If it was only parked (or even fully stopped!) cars that threw open their doors randomly, that would be way too easy.


Edit: the original report struck me as kind of stating the obvious. Maybe I'm a bit jaded I dunno.

The image thing is funny. Now that I am commuting, others in my office building assume I am a messenger, not that there’s anything wrong with that at all, mind you. But they come off as superior in their monkey suits. Meanwhile, they are employed by someone, while I own my own business in that building and get to bring my bike into the office. But yes, I watch out for opening doors and for inevitable turn-abouts peds make. People have their own agenda, thoughts, problems, whatever. You might find yourself day-dreaming at times and being inattentive. So being on the look-out and assuming someone will do something stupid is a good policy to go by.

How did you get doored? Don't you mean you doored yourself by riding in the door zone? Yes, yes, I know, legally the driver is at fault because he's supposed to check that it's safe before he opens his door. But please, do you really count on them doing that? Why not (gosh!) ride outside of the door zone - 5 feet from the side of parked cars, so that you are immune from dooring yourself?

I got doored because I was coming from a main drag with high speed traffic onto a side street and I took my turn too wide.

How do you get hit by someone doing a U-turn? That is, which way were they going (at the start of the U turn), and from which direction were you coming? You weren't traveling in the same direction, on the other side of the street, traveling against traffic, were you?

I almost got hit by someone doing a U turn when I was crossing at a crosswalk (i was sidewalk riding because I was stuck on a one-way street going in the opposite direction). This crosswalk was butted by concrete space dividing the road to the right of where I was crossing. Traffic is supposed to just merge to the left onto the one way street- no U turns are allowed at this spot or for that matter anywhere else in Ohio as far as I know. Yet this idiot decided to make a U turn around the tip of this divider, going in the opposite direction from whence she came. This U turn she took fast and she cut me off. I was caught off guard because I didn't expect anything as stupid or flagrantly illegal. In this area near campus parking is scarce. So I gather she was hunting for a parking spot. People always do stupid things to find parking around this area like cutting people off or nearly causing wrecks slamming on brakes to get that parking spot they saw at the last minute. When I had a car, I'd go insane trying to find parking in this area.

Let me clarify why I was in the door zone for everyone. I was coming from a high speed main drag onto a side street, took the turn too wide, which put me smack in the door zone. Before I had time to correct my position on the road, a bozo in a black SUV swings open the abnormally large door and whack, I hit it with my brake. I was trying to correct my position, which if I had not, instead of hitting the edge of the door I would have hit both the guy and the door. I do confess, I take the door zone on occasion because there is little space on Cincinnati streets and it takes balls to practice vehicular cycling ALL the time because people will sit on my ass if I take the lane. In fact they will still buzz me when they pass because sometimes the VC method doesn't guarantee that the driver will go into switch lane mode. It is like they want to zip right back in that right hand lane again. When I do ride the door zone deliberately I watch for people in the cars. This can be hard when going at high speeds. I try all methods of cycling which is the best thing. Sometimes you ride like you are invisible because if you don't drivers will sometimes decide to just barge into your space even though they still see you. Sometimes you practice VC to motivate drivers into reacting as if you were just another car. The latter only works in circumstances where the driver is not a roadraging irate @#$ hole.

If and when you find yourself in the doorzone again and someone opens a door on you, try to remember they are softer then the door.

Aim for the driver in the future... Otherwise stay out of the doorzone.

Two friends of mine got pelted with eggs outside a fraternity house one evening while riding. They since have sold their bikes because of this and many other problems- mostly lack of cycling infrastructure and harassment..

Man, how things have changed in one generation. In the 70's, (my college days) it seemed everyone, including the frat rats, rode around on ten speeds. Cars were just too expensive, with gasoline, license fees, and insurance. Stupid question: Whan I ride around local campuses today, (Boston U. Boston College, Harvard, etc. ) I find myself asking who is paying for all those Jetta's and Accords. So who is paying for them? College kids today have that kind of money, or just lots of plastic?

I think I would have been angry enough to consult with a lawyer about a possible civil action against that fraternity. Perhaps a letter from an attorney to the national office, with copies to the office of the college president and Dean of students, would help matters. I know, I know: People go screaming to lawyers today to solve their problems, but sometimes, that's the only legal course.

On the Smiling Female: Yeah, she probably gets a lot of mileage out of that. I've had that happen to me a few times. I think they learn it in junior high school.

Good thread, thanks.

OK trite, but this is one reason I have started wearing bright "pro" jerseys... Not the team jerseys but certainly a nice jersey (primal wear). The jersey helps remove the image of down and out and states that I have "chosen" to ride a bike for some other reason other than poor or no driver's license.

Yeah it is a class thing, but I found that I got more recognition and respect from motorists by trying to look like I know what I am doing and that I chose to do it.

Look lets face it, in a world where folks are 2 second judging you by the look and style of vehicle, looking like you are not down and out makes a positive statement.

I don't think it would matter what you wear. You get negative attention and condescention in lycra. People just think you are nuttier for wearing bright, close fitting clothes. Also that kind of clothing elicits a negative reaction from the urban crowd. Thieves and thugs thinks the fancy clothing means your riding a titanium bike- at least around here.

The image thing is funny. Now that I am commuting, others in my office building assume I am a messenger, not that there’s anything wrong with that at all, mind you. But they come off as superior in their monkey suits. Meanwhile, they are employed by someone, while I own my own business in that building and get to bring my bike into the office. But yes, I watch out for opening doors and for inevitable turn-abouts peds make. People have their own agenda, thoughts, problems, whatever. You might find yourself day-dreaming at times and being inattentive. So being on the look-out and assuming someone will do something stupid is a good policy to go by.

Guy turned in front of me once, hollering 'GET OFF THE ROAD, A-HOLE'. I pulled up next to him at the next light, before I could say anything he shouts 'Get a Job!' and rolls up his window. I flipped him off then ignored him. At the time we were interviewing for a new project manager and I was scheduled to interview the final three my department heads had narrowed the field down to. The second guy looks familiar, but I do my usual 'Did you find the place OK, how was traffic'. The guy replies "Well I almost ran over a bicycle rider trying to find the address, those guys should really stay on the sidewalk or get a real job". Right then I knew exactly where I had seen him before, but I fought the urge to lay into him. I did the whole interview according to my usual script, then engaged in some small talk once we got through all that. I asked him about his hobbies, he was a hunter, fisherman and Browns fanatic...typical Clevelander. Then he asked me about my hobbies and I saw my chance.
"I ride bikes, touring mostly, I also ride to work most days" I could see a flicker of something in his eyes behind the aire of interest that was painted on his face as I continued. "Funny thing, some jerk almost ran me off the road this morning by turning right in front of me, told me to get off the road and something about getting a job...I have a pretty good job, don't you think?" I was smiling ear to ear...he was lookin kinda pale for some reason. No, I didn't hire him.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

If and when you find yourself in the doorzone again and someone opens a door on you, try to remember they are softer then the door.

Aim for the driver in the future... Otherwise stay out of the doorzone.

Ar ride with pedals that stick out a fair bit past your shoe and aim to clip their door edge just hard enough to chip the paint off. I had that happen once. Lady was pulling in to a parking spot i moved over a bit to clear her with distance to spare. She then decides she needs to back up and open her door while shes parking. Her car was sticking out in to the road a solid 3 foot past the rest and she tosses her door open. I clip the door edge with my pedal and knocked a huge chubj of paint off she yelled about the damage i think i said somethign like damn that did alot of damage maybe next time youll look first and park closer to the curb. Then just road off she was how shall we say very pissed off.

People do some realy stupid things when driving. Why in gods name would some one toss open their door in to a street with 35mph trafic while parked 3 feet out in to the street?

I think I would have been angry enough to consult with a lawyer about a possible civil action against that fraternity. Perhaps a letter from an attorney to the national office, with copies to the office of the college president and Dean of students, would help matters.Ask the Dean to put 'em on Double Secret Probation.

Ask the Dean to put 'em on Double Secret Probation.

:beer: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

I only occasionally ride in the door zone and only do this when I can look for heads in cars. Normally, this allows me to get away with it although I avoid doing it most of the time. I'm pretty attentive. There is this one street where traffic is 35 mph +. On this street I will dip into the door zone to let some of speeders pass rather than let them rear end me. Well, one day I was riding this street and I spot a woman getting out of her car. I apply the brakes to allow her to get out. Good thing I was good at stopping and track stands because this woman, who was in the twilight zone on the phone, swings the door open after shutting it to get something she forgot. Then she left the door wide open while she's digging for something on the passenger side of the car. Yea the best cycling policy is to assume that people are not firing on all cylinders. One book I read said, "ride as if they were out to kill you."

Guy turned in front of me once, hollering 'GET OFF THE ROAD, A-HOLE'. I pulled up next to him at the next light, before I could say anything he shouts 'Get a Job!' and rolls up his window. I flipped him off then ignored him. At the time we were interviewing for a new project manager and I was scheduled to interview the final three my department heads had narrowed the field down to. The second guy looks familiar, but I do my usual 'Did you find the place OK, how was traffic'. The guy replies "Well I almost ran over a bicycle rider trying to find the address, those guys should really stay on the sidewalk or get a real job". Right then I knew exactly where I had seen him before, but I fought the urge to lay into him. I did the whole interview according to my usual script, then engaged in some small talk once we got through all that. I asked him about his hobbies, he was a hunter, fisherman and Browns fanatic...typical Clevelander. Then he asked me about my hobbies and I saw my chance.
"I ride bikes, touring mostly, I also ride to work most days" I could see a flicker of something in his eyes behind the aire of interest that was painted on his face as I continued. "Funny thing, some jerk almost ran me off the road this morning by turning right in front of me, told me to get off the road and something about getting a job...I have a pretty good job, don't you think?" I was smiling ear to ear...he was lookin kinda pale for some reason. No, I didn't hire him.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Wow... there is a god! :D

Guy turned in front of me once, hollering 'GET OFF THE ROAD, A-HOLE'. I pulled up next to him at the next light, before I could say anything he shouts 'Get a Job!' and rolls up his window. I flipped him off then ignored him. At the time we were interviewing for a new project manager and I was scheduled to interview the final three my department heads had narrowed the field down to. The second guy looks familiar, but I do my usual 'Did you find the place OK, how was traffic'. The guy replies "Well I almost ran over a bicycle rider trying to find the address, those guys should really stay on the sidewalk or get a real job". Right then I knew exactly where I had seen him before, but I fought the urge to lay into him. I did the whole interview according to my usual script, then engaged in some small talk once we got through all that. I asked him about his hobbies, he was a hunter, fisherman and Browns fanatic...typical Clevelander. Then he asked me about my hobbies and I saw my chance.
"I ride bikes, touring mostly, I also ride to work most days" I could see a flicker of something in his eyes behind the aire of interest that was painted on his face as I continued. "Funny thing, some jerk almost ran me off the road this morning by turning right in front of me, told me to get off the road and something about getting a job...I have a pretty good job, don't you think?" I was smiling ear to ear...he was lookin kinda pale for some reason. No, I didn't hire him.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
That is beautiful poetic justice!

As for the U-Turn question. It's real easy to get hit by a U-Turner.

I have a reverse commute, meaning that most people are clogged up going the other way and I'm going the way that has no traffic. There's one spot where the other side folks might come around a bend and suddenly discover they're going to be stuck in a traffic jam for a very long time. A lot of them swing a U-Turn right there on the bend. I'm terrified when riding my motorcycle on Friday afternoons because of this, and I won't ride in the inner lane, only the outer lane, so I have a buffer.

The other way to get hit by a U-Turn is when someone whips a U-Turn from your right. Doesn't seem to matter whether you're on a bike, motorcycles or in a car sometimes with some of these people.

I don't think it would matter what you wear. You get negative attention and condescention in lycra. People just think you are nuttier for wearing bright, close fitting clothes. Also that kind of clothing elicits a negative reaction from the urban crowd. Thieves and thugs thinks the fancy clothing means your riding a titanium bike- at least around here.

Yeah the "nuttier" reaction does happen, but the attention does get you noticed... and wearing the stuff removes you from the "lower class" so to speak of those that motorists just assume have had too many DUIs or are too poor to drive.

I don't want to sound "classest" (and I know some are going to flame me for this) but putting myself into a catagory where folks yell "hey Lance" is a bit nicer then constantly getting "get on the sidewalk... "

This is not to say that what you are wearing will always resolve issues... as it does open you up to the gaybasher crowd that gets all twisted when they see anyone wearing anything but Levis...

Folks make snap decisions based on appearance, otherwise we would all be driving boxy beige fuel efficient vehicles instead of playing the fashion game with Detroit every year.

So clothing does and will change some attitudes... but is not the overall cure all.

Seems I've read this question 50 or 100 times since joining the forums. Always asked by the same poster. Perhaps it should be made a Sticky in a Closed Thread. :)
We've gone over it a lot because cyclists continue to make the boneheaded mistake of riding in the door zone! I cannot understand why it is so hard for smart people to get the concept: There is never a sane reason to ride in a door zone so don't do it! What does it mean that the lane is too narrow? A car door is only 3 to 4 feet wide. Have you ever seen a lane that was less than 4 feet wide? Of course not! Therefore, there is always somewhere to ride in the outer lane that is not in the door zone. Always! If you are not able to ride further into the lane of a given road, then you do not yet possess the street cycling skills to be riding on that road. Find an alternate route, or learn better skills. Or push your bike on the sidewalk.

As for u-turns. I doubt if they are illegal in Ohio, unless there is a local ordinance against them, and then there will usually be a sign. However, I'm from Michigan so I might be wrong. Ohio is a pretty crazy state. :) The u-turner is supposed to use due caution and yield ROW to traffic already in the street. If this was the case, the cager was probably in the wrong legally. But u-turners are still one of the many things that we must be aware of as we ride.

Guy turned in front of me once, hollering 'GET OFF THE ROAD, A-HOLE'. I pulled up next to him at the next light, before I could say anything he shouts 'Get a Job!' and rolls up his window. I flipped him off then ignored him. At the time we were interviewing for a new project manager and I was scheduled to interview the final three my department heads had narrowed the field down to. The second guy looks familiar, but I do my usual 'Did you find the place OK, how was traffic'. The guy replies "Well I almost ran over a bicycle rider trying to find the address, those guys should really stay on the sidewalk or get a real job". Right then I knew exactly where I had seen him before, but I fought the urge to lay into him. I did the whole interview according to my usual script, then engaged in some small talk once we got through all that. I asked him about his hobbies, he was a hunter, fisherman and Browns fanatic...typical Clevelander. Then he asked me about my hobbies and I saw my chance.
"I ride bikes, touring mostly, I also ride to work most days" I could see a flicker of something in his eyes behind the aire of interest that was painted on his face as I continued. "Funny thing, some jerk almost ran me off the road this morning by turning right in front of me, told me to get off the road and something about getting a job...I have a pretty good job, don't you think?" I was smiling ear to ear...he was lookin kinda pale for some reason. No, I didn't hire him.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:Oh man, that is priceless!

Guy turned in front of me once, hollering 'GET OFF THE ROAD, A-HOLE'. I pulled up next to him at the next light, before I could say anything he shouts 'Get a Job!' and rolls up his window. I flipped him off then ignored him. At the time we were interviewing for a new project manager and I was scheduled to interview the final three my department heads had narrowed the field down to. The second guy looks familiar, but I do my usual 'Did you find the place OK, how was traffic'. The guy replies "Well I almost ran over a bicycle rider trying to find the address, those guys should really stay on the sidewalk or get a real job". Right then I knew exactly where I had seen him before, but I fought the urge to lay into him. I did the whole interview according to my usual script, then engaged in some small talk once we got through all that. I asked him about his hobbies, he was a hunter, fisherman and Browns fanatic...typical Clevelander. Then he asked me about my hobbies and I saw my chance.
"I ride bikes, touring mostly, I also ride to work most days" I could see a flicker of something in his eyes behind the aire of interest that was painted on his face as I continued. "Funny thing, some jerk almost ran me off the road this morning by turning right in front of me, told me to get off the road and something about getting a job...I have a pretty good job, don't you think?" I was smiling ear to ear...he was lookin kinda pale for some reason. No, I didn't hire him.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:Beautiful story chipper!

Let me clarify why I was in the door zone for everyone. I was coming from a high speed main drag onto a side street, took the turn too wide, which put me smack in the door zone. Before I had time to correct my position on the road, a bozo in a black SUV swings open the abnormally large door and whack, I hit it with my brake.
Uhhh, Roody above explained the door zone issue quite well. No need to get into that. You ride in the DZ you are asking for it even if technically not your fault.

But look at your situation from the persective of the driver. Can he see around corners? He very well may have checked the door zone for cyclists before opening the door, but guess what, you were not there, until a few second later, woosh, you round the corner and bam, you are in his door zone. You even say that you didn't have time to yet correct you position. From what you write this isn't even the drivers fault. It reads as 100% yours.

Al

.

Man, how things have changed in one generation. In the 70's, (my college days) it seemed everyone, including the frat rats, rode around on ten speeds. Cars were just too expensive, with gasoline, license fees, and insurance. Stupid question: Whan I ride around local campuses today, (Boston U. Boston College, Harvard, etc. ) I find myself asking who is paying for all those Jetta's and Accords. So who is paying for them? College kids today have that kind of money, or just lots of plastic?

I think I would have been angry enough to consult with a lawyer about a possible civil action against that fraternity. Perhaps a letter from an attorney to the national office, with copies to the office of the college president and Dean of students, would help matters. I know, I know: People go screaming to lawyers today to solve their problems, but sometimes, that's the only legal course.

On the Smiling Female: Yeah, she probably gets a lot of mileage out of that. I've had that happen to me a few times. I think they learn it in junior high school.

Good thread, thanks.

You don't need to consult a lawyer, just find out where to file a formal complaint with the University. If they getr a few of those, not only will the Administration come down on them, but the National will as well. There's intense scrutiny of fraternities these days, and it could get them kicked out.

Yeah the "nuttier" reaction does happen, but the attention does get you noticed... and wearing the stuff removes you from the "lower class" so to speak of those that motorists just assume have had too many DUIs or are too poor to drive.

When I ride I dress like a bum. I wear baselayer shirts in the summer, sweatshirt or sweater this time of year, non-cycling specific jacket in the winter (not to mention my trademark sweat-stained ball-cap all the time). When my Fuji is wearing its fenders, rack, panniers, Barley green saddlebag and handlebar bag it doesn't look like a fancy, high-dollar road bike. I don't want to look well-off, I like to be comfy and I'm not a flashy kind of guy. I also think some folks tend to be nicer to 'normal folk' than to those who look like rich TDF wannabes on expensive bikes with expensive duds (no offense to the OCPers). My best piece of gear for visibility on my commute (other than lights) is my Illuminite hi-viz reflective vest. It's light, small enough to fit in my pocket and I can wear it over anything.

That is beautiful poetic justice!

As for the U-Turn question. It's real easy to get hit by a U-Turner.

I have a reverse commute, meaning that most people are clogged up going the other way and I'm going the way that has no traffic. There's one spot where the other side folks might come around a bend and suddenly discover they're going to be stuck in a traffic jam for a very long time. A lot of them swing a U-Turn right there on the bend. I'm terrified when riding my motorcycle on Friday afternoons because of this, and I won't ride in the inner lane, only the outer lane, so I have a buffer.

The other way to get hit by a U-Turn is when someone whips a U-Turn from your right. Doesn't seem to matter whether you're on a bike, motorcycles or in a car sometimes with some of these people.

I'm painfully aware of the dreaded U-TURNERS!! I live near the Fauntleroy/Vashon Island Ferry terminal.
The ferry Fools approaching northbound are scanning the ferry lane lineup to see where they can get in line. (Drivers heading north looking left) They are so consumed with worry that someone might get a car length in front of them (hence they might miss that ferry and have to take the next scheduled one)
that they whip the u-turn without ever looking to see what's coming at them SOUTHBOUND!!!! OY!!!
It's bad enough in an auto. I don't recommrnd it on a cycle.

We've gone over it a lot because cyclists continue to make the boneheaded mistake of riding in the door zone! I cannot understand why it is so hard for smart people to get the concept: There is never a sane reason to ride in a door zone so don't do it! What does it mean that the lane is too narrow? A car door is only 3 to 4 feet wide. Have you ever seen a lane that was less than 4 feet wide? Of course not! Therefore, there is always somewhere to ride in the outer lane that is not in the door zone. Always! If you are not able to ride further into the lane of a given road, then you do not yet possess the street cycling skills to be riding on that road. Find an alternate route, or learn better skills. Or push your bike on the sidewalk.
A+

:beer:

Ask the Dean to put 'em on Double Secret Probation.

I'll put Neidermeyer on it. :D :D :D

Yesterday I was doored by some driver flying out of his car like he'd just consumed a box of laxatives and this driver asked me what the hell I was doing in the street.

He's lucky he didn't try that chit with me.

About 3 days ago I was PURPOSELY buzzed by a gool-ol-boy in his F-350. Unfortunately for him, a long red light was just a few hundred yards ahead.

So I moved to his left, rapped on his window and calmly and softly asked WTF was his problem, and would he like to step outside, or apologize.

He nervously apologized.

NTwo friends of mine got pelted with eggs outside a fraternity house one evening while riding.

My response probably would have been to stop immediately, call 911 and request a cruiser to be dispatched to take an assault report.

Having biked on both sides of the pond, I would suggest American drivers have nothing to complain about, other than there isn't enough public transportation. In Europe, posted speeds are generally much slower, drivers follow speed limits, lanes are narrower and there are no shoulders to ride on- unless it is a motorway, in which case you cannot bike on it. Cars rule the roost in the US- but there is more than enough room to accommodate a few bikes... it isn't like cities are just swarming with cyclists in the US. I would guestimate that ten times as many people commute by bike in Europe, than in the US.

Get this- Britian is supposed to be light years ahead on tollerance of cyclists. It just confirmed what I already was guessing- that bicyclists are assumed to be too poor to drive, that they are a nuissance and need to be taught a lesson, so on and so forth. So here's the data:

1) Cycling Motorists and how to encourage them’.

Published by the AA. 1993.

This report looked at the attitudes of individuals who were either motorists or motorists who on occasion were also cyclists.

As you might expect from such an organisation much of this report is used to press the AA’s view that more should be spent on road maintenance and that cyclists should dress like Christmas trees so myopic drivers can ‘see ‘ them. However, it does contain some interesting figures. It found:

10% of motorists think cyclists cycle because they are too poor to have a car.

30% of motorists considered cyclists to be a ‘nuisance’.

65% agreed with the statement ‘Most drivers would rather cyclists were not on the roads at all’.

58% of motorists who also cycled were concerned about the attitudes of motorists to them when they were cycling.

The AA report concludes;

‘Some motorists are inconsiderate and have negative attitudes towards cyclists.’

‘Cyclists are often the underdogs of the road- seen as such by both motorists and cyclists themselves. Some motorists don’t like them because they feel they hold up traffic; pedestrians don’t like sharing paths with them because they travel too fast. this gives the impression that cyclists are unwelcome on the roads and off the roads...’

The report also found that 83% of motorists said that nothing would entice them to ride a bike again...

The report also found that the more pro cycling you were the higher your socio-economic groups was likely to be. In general committed cyclists were better paid than committed motorists, a reversal of what some drivers believed.
Aside from discussions about what the original poster might have done differently to ride defensively, the above discourse is the heart of the post. The events leading the poster to look into motorists' attitudes are not important, but what he found is revealing.

Perhaps this is one thing that makes cycling in different areas of the country (or world) more (or less) satisfying, that in some areas the culture accepts and even promotes cycling, whereas in other areas, cycling is socially unacceptable behavior. In some places, it's not uncommon for the kindest, most well-meaning motorists to think that cyclists don't even belong in the street.

When I ride I dress like a bum. I wear baselayer shirts in the summer, sweatshirt or sweater this time of year, non-cycling specific jacket in the winter (not to mention my trademark sweat-stained ball-cap all the time). When my Fuji is wearing its fenders, rack, panniers, Barley green saddlebag and handlebar bag it doesn't look like a fancy, high-dollar road bike. I don't want to look well-off, I like to be comfy and I'm not a flashy kind of guy. I also think some folks tend to be nicer to 'normal folk' than to those who look like rich TDF wannabes on expensive bikes with expensive duds (no offense to the OCPers). My best piece of gear for visibility on my commute (other than lights) is my Illuminite hi-viz reflective vest. It's light, small enough to fit in my pocket and I can wear it over anything.

Uh, but your fenders and panniers mark you as more then a DUI or poor rider.

It is not that one has to look like a TDF wanna be, but not like a DUI or poor person. Your bags speak of determination and destination.

Your hi-vis vest also says the same.

So a jersey does not have to be the only "uniform" that speaks of a cyclist as a determined rider. What area are you in, perhaps your choice of clothing better fits your area.

In some places, it's not uncommon for the kindest, most well-meaning motorists to think that cyclists don't even belong in the street.

The big question is WHY? Why is this so, from where does this perception come?

Part of the popular culture ... class struggle.

The big question is WHY? Why is this so, from where does this perception [that cyclists don't belong on the street] come?
Probably many sources. Car culture is responsible for a lot of it.

Aside from car-culture, one place might be our power-centered psyche. Once in motion, a motorist (including me) is easily frustrated by anything that would interfere with forward progress. So we instinctively speed up to the next red light, we jockey for the foremost position, we attempt to pass anyone slower, even if we arrive at our destination at exactly the same time. Having power and not being able to exercise it goes against our programming. Before we got in the car, we weren't frustrated by another pedestrian. But when he makes us wait in our car at a crosswalk, we go nuts.

A slow-moving cyclist just doesn't fit in here. It takes conscious effort or reprogramming to overcome this instinct.

I basically agree with LBM's assessment.

Cyclists get in the way and cause anxiety.

Al

Probably many sources. Car culture is responsible for a lot of it.

Aside from car-culture, one place might be our power-centered psyche. Once in motion, a motorist (including me) is easily frustrated by anything that would interfere with forward progress. So we instinctively speed up to the next red light, we jockey for the foremost position, we attempt to pass anyone slower, even if we arrive at our destination at exactly the same time. Having power and not being able to exercise it goes against our programming. Before we got in the car, we weren't frustrated by another pedestrian. But when he makes us wait in our car at a crosswalk, we go nuts.

A slow-moving cyclist just doesn't fit in here. It takes conscious effort or reprogramming to overcome this instinct.


OK that I can agree with... and I think part of what creates that frustration is "training" by ad agencies that driving is some ethereal wonderful experience that removes the motorist from everyday stresses and is rewarded by sex. I mean lets face it... a car is a simple box with wheels and an engine... yet some of the images on ads have dr doing everything from planting visions in your head to knocking down walls to access the great open spaces. "Zoom zoom, HA! Give me a break. And some folks don't think motorists need "counter-training" to all of this.

This is where I think motorists do need some form of training... something to remind them that they have to share the road with both each other and with other users. Look at all the time motorists now spend seeing ads that promise much more then just a typical driving experience... something has to neutralize all that propaganda. Couple that with the annual new car shows and all the hype about the latest features bla bla bla.

Heck yeah there is frustration on the roads today.

OK that I can agree with... and I think part of what creates that frustration is "training" by ad agencies that driving is some ethereal wonderful experience that removes the motorist from everyday stresses and is rewarded by sex. I mean lets face it... a car is a simple box with wheels and an engine... yet some of the images on ads have dr doing everything from planting visions in your head to knocking down walls to access the great open spaces. "Zoom zoom, HA! Give me a break. And some folks don't think motorists need "counter-training" to all of this.

This is where I think motorists do need some form of training... something to remind them that they have to share the road with both each other and with other users. Look at all the time motorists now spend seeing ads that promise much more then just a typical driving experience... something has to neutralize all that propaganda. Couple that with the annual new car shows and all the hype about the latest features bla bla bla.

Heck yeah there is frustration on the roads today.

This is so true. When I first started riding, I felt so out of place on the roads. The thought of driving 17 miles to work was as mind-boggling to me as the idea of taking a covered wagon across the plains from Independence to Oregon! In fact, walking seemed more normal than riding. But now that I've done it for several months, I can see myself riding anywhere I want to go, as long as I have the stamina. This truly was a retraining of my attitude about transportation. I'm a better driver now that I'm a cyclist.

And speaking of commercials, I hate that one that shows people "taking their breath away" doing sports activities and then they show a guy in an SUV zipping around becoming breathless, as if sitting on your ass is the same thing as running or mountainclimbing or riding a bike! :mad:

And speaking of commercials, I hate that one that shows people "taking their breath away" doing sports activities and then they show a guy in an SUV zipping around becoming breathless, as if sitting on your ass is the same thing as running or mountainclimbing or riding a bike! :mad:

You and me both... but I can understand the situation... this guy has sat on his butt for so long he cannot breathe well... needs to go out and get some exercise. :D

One of the only positive commercials I have seen is the one of the Passat and the cyclist at night, where the cyclist's lights have failed and they both go down the mountain pass together... it at least shows some level of co-operation between motorist and cyclist. It is still a car commercial, but they never "sell" anything but what the car can actually do... so there again a positive thing...

Now, again, with all these ads, how can anyone NOT see the need for public service announcements and the like to tout the reality of the road?

Now, again, with all these ads, how can anyone NOT see the need for public service announcements and the like to tout the reality of the road?

OK it's settled, we need a Movie of the Week. Divorced mom, mid 30s (hot of course) trying to raise her young kids after hubby up and left her, taking the car and the bank account. All she has for transportation is a bike, let the adventures begin!

How about Sally Struthers doing a PSA to 'adopt a bike commuter'? Yes folks, for just $20 a month you can pay the medical insurance premiums of a bike commuter!

Seriously, maybe invoking the entertainment industry to create yet another fad that makes both cycling and sharing the road with cyclists, 'cool' might be more effective than PSAs.

Guy turned in front of me once, hollering 'GET OFF THE ROAD, A-HOLE'. I pulled up next to him at the next light, before I could say anything he shouts 'Get a Job!' and rolls up his window. I flipped him off then ignored him. At the time we were interviewing for a new project manager and I was scheduled to interview the final three my department heads had narrowed the field down to. The second guy looks familiar, but I do my usual 'Did you find the place OK, how was traffic'. The guy replies "Well I almost ran over a bicycle rider trying to find the address, those guys should really stay on the sidewalk or get a real job". Right then I knew exactly where I had seen him before, but I fought the urge to lay into him. I did the whole interview according to my usual script, then engaged in some small talk once we got through all that. I asked him about his hobbies, he was a hunter, fisherman and Browns fanatic...typical Clevelander. Then he asked me about my hobbies and I saw my chance.
"I ride bikes, touring mostly, I also ride to work most days" I could see a flicker of something in his eyes behind the aire of interest that was painted on his face as I continued. "Funny thing, some jerk almost ran me off the road this morning by turning right in front of me, told me to get off the road and something about getting a job...I have a pretty good job, don't you think?" I was smiling ear to ear...he was lookin kinda pale for some reason. No, I didn't hire him.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:


Ha HA That is just too Great!!!

OK it's settled, we need a Movie of the Week. Divorced mom, mid 30s (hot of course) trying to raise her young kids after hubby up and left her, taking the car and the bank account. All she has for transportation is a bike, let the adventures begin!

How about Sally Struthers doing a PSA to 'adopt a bike commuter'? Yes folks, for just $20 a month you can pay the medical insurance premiums of a bike commuter!

Seriously, maybe invoking the entertainment industry to create yet another fad that makes both cycling and sharing the road with cyclists, 'cool' might be more effective than PSAs.

Well heck yeah... but unless they see money in it... like the ad agencies and auto industry... then we are doomed from the start.

Now about that series...