hit by car, i'm ok, my frame isn't - next steps?

[brunning]

this is kind of a murky case, but if anyone could give me next steps on how to proceed, i'd be grateful.

late last night, i was making a left turn at a well-lit intersection in brooklyn.

a driver coming the other way turned right just after i turned. he didn't see me (though i had lights), hit my back wheel, and sent me flying. this happened in front of several of my friends.

somehow, i'm relatively unscathed. my right ankle is a bit swolen, but it's nothing serious (the paramedics later checked it out). i was just rather shocked by the whole experience and was kind of out of it.

the driver stopped, was apologetic and relieved that i was ok. he gave my friends his name, licence number, and phone number and then left. we called police, but they didn't arrive for a good half hour.

we all noted at the time that my back wheel was messed up - a broken spoke and a bent rim.

on further inspection, it turned out that my frame is broken. there's a crack through the head tube lug.

when the cops arrived to file the report, they told me that the car was registered to a woman, and that i may have little recourse in the situation, since she wasn't driving it, etc.

i'm calling the precinct this afternoon to get the police accident report number - where do i go from here?

thanks!

[slvoid]

A) You should've made sure the driver stopped.
B) Next time, always carry around a disposable camera in your bag so you can document the accident right there and then (assuming you're conscious).
C) Go after the owner of the car (you might want to contact the laywer, the best advice I can give you involves a background check for a home address, two bricks, and a u-lock).

Which intersection was this? How well lit were you and how exactly did it happen?

[Az B]

If anyone ever learns anything from this forum;

Never, ever leave or let anyone else leave the scene of a crash before the police arrive.

Az

[Dchiefransom]

Go after the insurance company of the person owning the car. If you can't get it from them, sue the driver in small claims court. It would seem that the insurance of a car that's not "stolen" would be responsible for any damages incurred.

[brunning]

my friends had a camera and took pics at the scene.

how do i go about contacting the car's owner's insurance company? what kind of evidence will they want?

[Cadd]

Accidents happen. You now have to get the police report (it won't be ready for a day or two and make sure you bring a Money Order).

Once you get the report, you can call up his insurance company and file a claim. Then, it's you vs his insurance company. They usually settle and write you a check. If you don't like the amount, you can get lawyers involved. But remember, if you do, you'll be paying lots of $$$$ for legal fees.

If you have car insurance, you can get them involved too. But the other driver's insurance should take care of everything.

[Cadd]

my friends had a camera and took pics at the scene.

how do i go about contacting the car's owner's insurance company? what kind of evidence will they want?
It should be on the police report. They'll have the name of the insurance company and the policy number. Just look them up in the Yellow Pages and give them a call. Not sure what type of evidence they need.

[brunning]

Which intersection was this? How well lit were you and how exactly did it happen?

it was at meeker and union in williamsburg.

i was riding down union, under the BQE. i made a left turn onto meeker and crossed over to the right side of the road. the driver made a right turn after me and ended up right behind me. didn't see me, clipped my wheel.

i had a white light on the front and a red blinky on the back.

[slvoid]

In case anyone's wondering, here's the intersection.
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.715192,-73.952097&spn=0.005045,0.008735&t=h&hl=en

[pleaseassist]

The insurance company should be more than willing to cover all costs incurred from the accident. No matter who was driving. If you're like me you won't be greedy and the sheen of a new bike will be enough. A weld could (depending on the material) fix your bike, but it wouldn't be the same. You'd always have a spare on hand though.

Don't let it go. Stay with it and persist on speaking with someone from the insurance company. Mention that you are in touch with witnesses and that (if this is true) you'd prefer to keep away from lawyers. By the way, make sure you are physically okay. A signed check for a relatively cheap bike isn't worth a bum knee or ankle.

Good luck. I'd call your the number you were given and see where that gets you.

[Blue Order]

when the cops arrived to file the report, they told me that the car was registered to a woman, and that i may have little recourse in the situation, since she wasn't driving it, etc.The cops are wrong. I'll post more later.

[CB HI]

Sorry you got hit. I have good success dealing with insurance companies on my own. The adjuster may lie, so be ready to call his BS for what it is. The adjuster probably will not know much about bicycles.

Claim everything that had even a little bit of damage. Claim your helmet even if there is no visible damage to it. If the adjuster gives you BS on this, just look him straight in the eye and say “You and I both know that every helmet manufacturer tells people that helmets are no longer safe to use once they have been in an accident.”
Only accept a reasonable depreciation on the value of the bike. Many of use have bikes in great condition that are over 10 years old, so a 3 year depreciation rate is absurd. Demand to be made hole - full replacement cost at current market price for your bicycle. Even if you plan on assembling the bike yourself, include what the shop would charge to assemble. Include taxes.
If your bike is your primary transportation, rent a bike to use until you have your new bike in hand. Let the adjuster know in a subtle way that the longer it takes for them to pay off, the more it will cost them in rental charges. It gives you a ride and helps push them to settle sooner. You can also contract with a friend for a rental of the friends bike at the same rate a shop would charge.
Include all medical cost and lost work time. Do not accept payment (as in cashing a check or signing a release form for medical) until you have a settlement for property damages.

Since the guy did not own the car, it could cause problems in the insurance claim. If the owner is not willing to get the claim started, just call the insurance company and tell them you want to submit the claim.

I was a witness in a hit and run on a bicyclist case. The car owner was an old lady who loaned her car to her 40ish year old daughter. The daughter went to the beach with her low life boyfriend. Boyfriend has several drinks at the beach. Girlfriend lets boyfriend drive them home. Boyfriend driving drunk, drifts into the bike lane and runs over a cyclist and keeps going. Girlfriend is upset, makes boyfriend stop and switch seats. Girlfriend drives to a side street near the down cyclist. They get out of the car, have an small argument while boyfriend smokes a cigarette. Boyfriend is a bit tipsy. They then walk to the accident scene to see how many bones they have broken (including a hip) and how much other damage they have caused. They watch others give the cyclist first aid, watch him get loaded into an ambulance and taken to hospital. They then go back to their car, girlfriend refuses to drive. Boyfriend takes the keys and they drive away. When police question them, girlfriend says boyfriend was driving and boyfriend says girlfriend was driving. Police choose to not pursue case since they cannot figure out who was driving when the cyclist was run down. The old ladies insurance company claims they were told the boyfriend was driving. Since he is not an authorized driver, they say they have no responsibility to pay up. Police refuse to follow up and charge the boyfriend with auto theft even though he was driving a car he had no authorization to drive.

So who paid out? The cyclist had a good auto insurer and they payed up (less deductible). The cyclist lawyer got 33% of the pay out for hiring a PI to find the driver and going to the cyclist auto insurer.

If all else fails, take the driver to small claims court.

Good luck and enjoy your new bike (when you get it).

[brunning]

thanks for all the advice here, it's really appreciated.

i have an accident report number from the police, the report itself should be done in about a week, so i guess we'll figure more out then.

i'm going to give the driver a call in the next day or two and see if they'll go ahead and start a claim, otherwise, i'll be contacting the insurance company myself.

[Blue Order]

when the cops arrived to file the report, they told me that the car was registered to a woman, and that i may have little recourse in the situation, since she wasn't driving it, etc.As I said in my previous post, the cops are wrong. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner with this, but take a look at Section 388 of New York's Vehicle and Traffic Law. Here's an excerpt:

"Every owner of a vehicle used or operated in this state shall be liable and responsible for death or injuries to person or property resulting from negligence in the use or operation of such vehicle, in the business of such owner or otherwise, by any person using or operating the vehicle with the permission, express or implied, of such owner."

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Even if you plan on assembling the bike yourself, include what the shop would charge to assemble. Include taxes.
If your bike is your primary transportation, rent a bike to use until you have your new bike in hand. Let the adjuster know in a subtle way that the longer it takes for them to pay off, the more it will cost them in rental charges. It gives you a ride and helps push them to settle sooner. You can also contract with a friend for a rental of the friends bike at the same rate a shop would charge.
I would guess that some insurance adjusters may balk at paying anything once they suspect they are dealing with a scammer, padding a claim with phoney (even if relatively low) costs, i.e. shop charges and taxes not paid, retail-price rentals contracts "paid" to friends, etc.

[Brian]

I'm not an attorney, but I've had 10 years claims experience, so I'll offer my advice.

First, there's a good chance the PR won't have the insurance info. Unless the cops contacted the owner after the accident, the only info on there will be whatever you provided.

Second, as someone noted, the owner of the vehicle is legally responsible even if they weren't driving. Hopefully, they have insurance. The only concern I would have there is if the driver is excluded from the policy, which is fairly common.

Third, you are entitled to a replacement bike of equal value. If your bike is a more than few years old, you'll do ok. A bike that was $500 5 years ago can easily be replaced with something much better for less. If it's only a year or two old, you should still be ok, as even if they try to depreciate it, they owe you a comparable bike. In some states, insurers are required to replace baby seats if they were in a car that was in an accident - occupied or not. Quote that fact when asking them to replace your helmet.

Fourth, your injury claim, should you pursue one, is totally separate from your property damage claim. They cannot tie settlement of one to the other.

Finally, if you have any questions for me, you can post here or send me a PM. I'm happy to answer them.

[brunning]

thanks again for the continuing help. here's a question regarding the bike:

it's a fixed gear bike built up from parts i've been slowly collecting. all the parts were gradually collected and came from bike swap meets, ebay, and are used and/or vintage. it's not a bike you can say "costs $1000" or anything and i most certainly do not have receipts for every piece.

should i have it appraised by my bike shop to ascertain the replacement value?

[a.gunn]

http://www.transalt.org/info/cycling.html

This website seems to have a lot of good info for NYC bike laws and people that can help you

[Brian]

should i have it appraised by my bike shop to ascertain the replacement value?

Yes. Including labour to build another, and note any rare or hard to find parts. Your job is to prove the value, something yuor average claims adjuster probably won't be able to do.

[brunning]

pour one out for the pinarello...

[Blue Order]

That looks like it might be repairable damage. If you want THAT bike, instead of a replacement, have the insurance company pony up for repairs to your frame. Make sure it's as pretty as you want it to be when it's done. Just like a car repair.

[brunning]

nah. that's not even half of it.

there are big dents in the top and seat tubes, and the whole front triangle is shifted off to the right of where it should be.

when you place a ruler along the non-drive side of the seat tube, it sits flush with the tube for 6" or so above the BB, but then the tube bends off and is about 1" away from the ruler when you're right below the seat lug. :(

[Blue Order]

In that case, you will want the replacement cost of the bike, rather than the actual cash value-- whatever the insurance company thinks that might be-- of the bike.

[Brian]

You're not likely to find an insurance company that would pay to repair it. That puts them back on the hook for liability. If it broke at a later date, you could pursue them for any damages or injuries. They won't pay to repair a bike frame.

[brunning]

here's a kind of funny-not-so-funny twist to the situation.

the car is registered to the driver's girlfriend, but in the last week, they've "kind of broken up" and he seems a bit apprehensive about breaking the news to her or going to her for the insurance info, which i still haven't gotten, now 5 days later.

he said he'd try to get it to me by tonight, but still no word. just left him voicemail. if another few days pass and he's still being shady about it, do the police have the authority to get this info out of him/her?

how long should i give the guy? i know i should have tried to get that info out of him at the accident, but i've never been in this situation before and was a bit too shaken to think of it. i probably wouldn't have even gotten his phone number if it wasn't for my friends.

also, i've been in contact with my local bike shop and they're being great, writing up an appraisal for the replacement, and assuring me that they're good at sticking up for owners when the insurance company calls. the owner assured me that he's great at letting them know it's a vintage top-shelf italian steel frame, and not "some old bike", which is good to hear.

[Brian]

He's not getting any more from her, what's he got to lose? Legally, she's responsible for her vehicle, unless it was stolen. The police can try to get the insurance from him as part of completing the PR and investigation. Refresh my memory - what details of his do you have? You can tell him that if he doesn't want to give you the insurance info so you can report the loss, that you'll have to pursue him direct. In the meantime, you'll want that police report as soon as it's available.

[rideabike]

As Blue Order pointed out, the owner is liable for damages caused by the vehicle. The driver is also.

I believe that there is a code on the police report which can be translated into the name of the insurance company that the driver has. Get the code and call the police or an insurance agent and ask for the translation, and then write to the insurance company notifying them of the accident, with a cc to the driver. In the alternative, you could just write the driver and ask that she notify the company. Either way, I think you should put something in writing now.

[Blue Order]

here's a kind of funny-not-so-funny twist to the situation.

the car is registered to the driver's girlfriend, but in the last week, they've "kind of broken up" and he seems a bit apprehensive about breaking the news to her or going to her for the insurance info, which i still haven't gotten, now 5 days later.

he said he'd try to get it to me by tonight, but still no word. just left him voicemail. if another few days pass and he's still being shady about it, do the police have the authority to get this info out of him/her?

how long should i give the guy? i know i should have tried to get that info out of him at the accident, but i've never been in this situation before and was a bit too shaken to think of it. i probably wouldn't have even gotten his phone number if it wasn't for my friends.

also, i've been in contact with my local bike shop and they're being great, writing up an appraisal for the replacement, and assuring me that they're good at sticking up for owners when the insurance company calls. the owner assured me that he's great at letting them know it's a vintage top-shelf italian steel frame, and not "some old bike", which is good to hear.While I can understand his reluctance to break the news to his now ex-girlfriend, NY law doesn't excuse him. He's required-- by law-- to provide certain information to you. I'll get back to you in a bit with the specifc sections of NY law you'll want to be quoting.

[brokenrobot]

Yeah, let NO time go by if you can move forward now. Last think you need is this guy deciding "It's her car, it's her problem" and diappearing on you... last time I tried to "play nice" with a driver, he changed his phone number and vanished; you want to get paid before he makes that kind of decision!

[Blue Order]

Excerpt from sections of the NY Vehicle & Traffic Law:

Section 600.1.a: "Any person operating a motor vehicle who, knowing or having cause to know that damage has been caused to...the personal property of another, due to an incident involving the motor vehicle operated by such person shall, before leaving the place where the damage occurred, stop, exhibit his license and insurance identification card for such vehicle...and give his name, residence, including street and number, insurance carrier and insurance identification information...to the party sustaining the damage..."

Section 600.1.b: "A violation of the provisions of paragraph a of this subdivision shall constitute a traffic infraction punishable by a fine of up to two hundred fifty dollars or a sentence of imprisonment for up to fifteen days or both such fine and imprisonment."

Section 600.2.a: "Any person operating a motor vehicle who, knowing or having cause to know that personal injury has been caused to another person, due to an incident involving the motor vehicle operated by such person shall, before leaving the place where said personal injury occurred, stop, exhibit his license and insurance identification card for such vehicle...and give his name, residence, including street and number, insurance carrier and insurance identification information...to the injured party...and also to a police officer, or in the event no police officer is in the vicinity of the place of said injury, then he shall report said incident as soon as physically able to the nearest police station or judicial officer."

Section 600.2.b: "The first violation of the provisions of paragraph a of this subdivision shall constitute a class B misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not less than two hundred fifty nor more than five hundred dollars in addition to any other penalties provided by law. Any subsequent violation shall constitute a class A misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not less than five hundred nor more than one thousand dollars in addition to any other penalties provided by law..."

Section 602: A peace officer, acting pursuant to his special duties, or a police officer, may, without a warrant, arrest a person, in case of violation of section six hundred and section six hundred one, which in fact have been committed, though not in his presence, when he has reasonable cause to believe that the violation was committed by such person."

Section 605(a)1: "Every person operating a motor vehicle...which in any manner is involved in an accident, anywhere in the boundaries of this state, in which any person is killed or injured, or in which damage to the property of any person, including himself, in excess of one thousand dollars is sustained, shall within ten days after such accident, report the matter in writing to the commissioner..."

Section 605.2: "Failure to report an accident as herein provided or failure to give correctly the information required of him by the commissioner in connection with such report shall be a misdemeanor and shall constitute a ground for suspension or revocation of the operator's...license, or all certificates of registration for any motor vehicle, or of both, of the person failing to make such report as herein required. In addition, the commissioner may temporarily suspend the driver's license or permit or certificate of registration of the motor vehicle involved in the accident, or of both, of the person failing to report an accident within the period prescribed...until such report has been filed..."


Explain the law to this guy; I suspect that once apprised of the consequences of his failure to obey the law, the necessary information will be forthcoming.

Unless his ex-girlfriend's wrath is worse than jail time, fines, and a suspended driver's license... ;)

[Brian]

Blue - hopefully the guy isn't a total loser. Some people have no interest in the law.

[Blue Order]

True.

[brunning]

update!

after dicking me around for all of last week (with such classic lines as "have you ever filed an insurance claim before? they take forever and don't pay much"), the guy finally got me the insurance info.

those insurance guys don't waste much time.

within an hour of calling and starting the claim, they'd already had their medical dept call me back, called me back for a recorded statement and called the three witnesses i gave.

i hope the rest goes as smoothly.

[Brian]

I've been admonished for giving a claims-person's perspective. Some people view this as legal advice. So if you'd like to ask my anything, I'm happy to offer my view based on claims experience, but please don't misconstrue it as legal advice.

On the other hand, passing the bar doesn't automatically make you smart. Nor does it give you real world experience and insight into claims handling.

[slvoid]

I've been admonished for giving a claims-person's perspective. Some people view this as legal advice. So if you'd like to ask my anything, I'm happy to offer my view based on claims experience, but please don't misconstrue it as legal advice.

On the other hand, passing the bar doesn't automatically make you smart. Nor does it give you real world experience and insight into claims handling.

I always enjoy and appreciate your advice and tandem bike that's now sitting in my kitchen...

[Brian]

I always enjoy and appreciate your advice and tandem bike that's now sitting in my kitchen...

Jacketed hollow points or Talon's (if you can get them) - what more do you need to know? And what's this about a tandem?

[Feldman]

I do steel frame repair--no, I'm not trying to solicit your business as there are doubtless perfectly good framebuilders much closer to you! A head tube replacement should cost you $100-$150 PLUS $250-$400 for a paint job. Good luck with all that; one of my customers is trying to convince an assailant's insurance company that he can't just pop into Walmart to replace his Litespeed Tuscany.

[bluebottle1]

Be wary anytime you're on the phone with the insurance company. It's likely you are being recorded. I don't know the law on that in NY, but where I am, that would be perfectly legal.

The insurance should be willing to pay on this. I'm assuming that NY has a mandatory liability insurance law. If it does, the public policy on those laws is generally that they exist for the protection of other roadway users. As a result, it doesn't matter who is driving the car. If the owner of the vehicle has insurance, anyone who is driving the vehicle is covered for liability purposes up to the minimum limit required by law.

This is the law in Texas, and I suspect it is likely the law in NY. I can't say for certain, obviously, because I'm neither terribly familiar with NY law nor am I licensed there. Still, hope this is helpful.

[brunning]

every call i've made to the insurance company so far has been preceeded by a statement saying it might or will be recorded, so i've been speaking accordingly. everyone there has been helpful and accomidating so far, but i won't be surprised if i have to fight for a thing or two based on the horror stories i've heard.

anyway, regarding liability insurance in new york:

from http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/dmvfaqs.htm


What are the requirements for motor vehicle liability insurance in NYS?

A motor vehicle registered in NYS must have liability insurance. Insurance coverage must be a minimum of $25,000/50,000 for injury, $50,000/100,000 for death, and $10,000 for property damage caused by any one accident. New York State is a no-fault state. The liability coverage must remain in effect while the registration is valid, even if the vehicle is not used (except motorcycles).

[brunning]

I do steel frame repair--no, I'm not trying to solicit your business as there are doubtless perfectly good framebuilders much closer to you! A head tube replacement should cost you $100-$150 PLUS $250-$400 for a paint job. Good luck with all that; one of my customers is trying to convince an assailant's insurance company that he can't just pop into Walmart to replace his Litespeed Tuscany.

and thanks for this advice, but the frame is gone gone gone. the head tube is only the beginning. the top and seat tubes have big dents and the whole front triangle is shifted a few inches off from where it shoud be, alignment wise.

a framebuilder might be able to put it back together as a project but it would be require replacing the whole front triangle (at least).

[timmhaan]

yeah, keep it professional but firm. write down and keep a log of all the conversations you have, so you can quickly point out that "on this date, you said you would...." and so forth.

from my dealing with insurance it was almost like i had to do all the work. so, for these past three months (since my accident) i've pretty much felt like an employee there. i follow up, verify, submit paper work, follow up again, etc.

sounds like your claim is going much better than mine though. good luck.

[brunning]

update.. just got a call from the insurance company saying they've issued me a check for the full amount of the estimate!!!!!

i was preparing myself for big disappointment, so i can't believe this actually went so smoothly. i don't think i'll believe it 100% until the check clears, but it's time to start thinking about frame and wheel shopping.

thanks so much for everyone's help with this!

[benadrian]

update.. just got a call from the insurance company saying they've issued me a check for the full amount of the estimate!!!!!

i was preparing myself for big disappointment, so i can't believe this actually went so smoothly. i don't think i'll believe it 100% until the check clears, but it's time to start thinking about frame and wheel shopping.

thanks so much for everyone's help with this!

Right on!

You know, what you probably wanted was small change for the insurance company, you weren't involving lawyers, you weren't trying to milk them. Basically, you were being honest in a world where so many other people try to milk that scenario. So they quickly paid you because it's a good thing all around, easy for them, makes you happy, and shows te would that 1. that insurance company isn't total crap, and 2. honest hassle free claims get fast response!

Now, have fun in te candy store!

Ben Adrian

[brunning]

you're right - it's a world of people making million dollar claims for lost productivity and such, writing a check to cover some kid's cracked bike doesn't seem like such a big deal.

[Artkansas]

here's a kind of funny-not-so-funny twist to the situation.

the car is registered to the driver's girlfriend, but in the last week, they've "kind of broken up" and he seems a bit apprehensive about breaking the news to her or going to her for the insurance info, which i still haven't gotten, now 5 days later..

Get aggressive now. He's already BSing you. Their relationship has no bearing on your suffering. I dislike lawyers, but I suggest you might need one immediately.

[Brian]

Hmm. Another full settlement without an attorney. But what do I know?