View Full Version : what's that?
marcelinyc
11-15-05, 07:12 AM
"guys I'm watching cops photo snapping riders on the Bowery going through lights. I'm not sure what they intend to do with them or if they have a link up the street to a sting. But it seems to be a new development in the new regime now that they have a mandate in the election". - i got this email today.
does anyone know why they do it?
The Seldom Kill
11-15-05, 07:54 AM
Possibly a sting but more likely doing an analysis to justify a sting.
I saw a report on Fox 5 (WNYC) a few nights ago about the NYC cops cracking down on illegal bike manuevers like running red lights, etc.
They are/seem to be issuing tickets and stuff...
Jay
brokenrobot
11-16-05, 09:01 AM
Weird and creepy. Why do we live here again?
might have something to do with this guy:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=153630
trackhub
11-16-05, 02:43 PM
That is pretty strange. What DO they intend to do with this? Would their time and resources be better spent photographing drug activity?
banerjek
11-16-05, 03:06 PM
"guys I'm watching cops photo snapping riders on the Bowery going through lights. I'm not sure what they intend to do with them or if they have a link up the street to a sting. But it seems to be a new development in the new regime now that they have a mandate in the election". - i got this email today.
does anyone know why they do it?
What, y'all have never heard of a crackdown?
Close to where I live, they're having a huge crackdown on commercial truckers not carrying chains in the mountain passes -- they're even making sure the chains are in good condition and will fit on the wheels properly. Earlier this year, they went after jaywalkers and a few months before that, they issued tickets right and left to drivers who didn't obey the pedestrian right of way laws.
Sounds like the cyclists are just getting their turn in your neck of the woods. Just wait it out and they'll go after someone else. BTW, cops go after real crime too. They just have to enforce the petty laws once in awhile to remind people they exist.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
-Gandhi
Treespeed
11-16-05, 04:32 PM
I realize that the cops in NYC have been pretty harsh on cyclists rights during CM and writing tickets for missing reflectors and such lately, but you can hardly get all wound up for getting a ticket for running a red light. If your really so concerned about it, here's a thought, obey the law. But that's just me being crazy.
trackhub
11-16-05, 05:10 PM
... Earlier this year, they went after jaywalkers and a few months before that, they issued tickets right and left to drivers who didn't obey the pedestrian right of way laws.
Now, that is something Massachusetts police agencies really need to do. Motorists, bicyclists, and motorcyclists must be on constant guard for jaywalkers, especially in eastern MA. It's just one of those things that are embedded into the culture around here. That's the best way I can come up with to put it.
People step right into busy traffic while yakking it up on their phones, or while sipping from a domed cup of coffee, or while just looking at the ground. If you, as a motorist or cyclist, say anything, you'll just get a blank expression, a death look, or a scream fest about "My Rights!!!" (especially in Cambridge, where pretty much everything is a political protest of one kind or another. It's very tiring. )
The other side of the coin: More often than not, motorists will not stop, or yield right of way, to anything or anyone. During summers in Boston, it is easy to spot the out-of-town tourists: They're the ones who step off the curb into a marked crosswalk, and they actually believe the cars will stop for them. Wrong...
There was a case last summer where a motorist on Congress Street (Very busy traffic) hit a pedestrian, who was crossing legally in a crosswalk. The motorist stopped alright. He exited his vehicle, cell phone in hand, and made a call. Boston PD arrived on the scene quickly enough, and the motorist's first words to them were "I've got my lawyer on the phone right here". That explains the mindset I think.
I cannot imagine what would happen if police started issuing civil citations for Jay walking around here. I would surely not be a pretty sight.
What locales enforce jay walking laws?
Traffic enforcement priorities should be based on the risk to public safety of the behavior targetted. Targetting cyclists for running lights or stop signs doesn't even begin to pass the laugh test in this regard, so IMO this is mostly about harassing bicyclists, and not in the least about public safety. If they were really interested in public safety, they would be targetting motorists who violate the speed limit and run lights, not bicyclists.
BTW, Portland police conducted a stop sign 'sting' operation of the same sort just this morning...see comments on Shift list:
http://lists.riseup.net/www/arc/shift/2005-11/thrd9.html
I realize that the cops in NYC have been pretty harsh on cyclists rights during CM and writing tickets for missing reflectors and such lately, but you can hardly get all wound up for getting a ticket for running a red light. If your really so concerned about it, here's a thought, obey the law. But that's just me being crazy.
I agree. You're crazy. No, wait. I agree with the other bit too.
DCCommuter
11-16-05, 07:13 PM
Ticketing cyclists for running red lights has nothing to do with safety -- it's about perceived public disorder, and marginalizing a minority.
An interesting take on this is from a report that the Toronto coroner did a few years ago on cycling safety:
(http://www.toronto.ca/transportation/publications/bicycle_motor-vehicle/pdf/car-bike_collision_report.pdf)
For example, while there may be a perception that many cyclists recklessly disobey stop-signs and traffic signals, our analysis shows that less than 3% of collisions involve a cyclist failing to stop at a controlled intersection. Targeted stop-sign
enforcement campaigns along busy cycling routes may result in large numbers of tickets being issued, but their effectiveness in improving traffic safety is questionable. Enforcement that focuses on driving and cycling infractions that are found to contribute most often to collisions and injuries can be expected to yield better results, in terms of improving safety, than campaigns that simply target infractions that are easy to enforce.
Ticketing cyclists for running red lights has nothing to do with safety -- it's about perceived public disorder, and marginalizing a minority.
Perhaps you could convince your local gendarmes to selectively enforce only certain laws? Maybe rank them according to importance?
On the one hand, cyclists want to be treated as equals with motorists when it comes to rights to the roadway. Then they go and break rules they don't think should apply to them. But would you say it's ok for motorists to run lights?
Treespeed
11-16-05, 07:36 PM
Perhaps you could convince your local gendarmes to selectively enforce only certain laws? Maybe rank them according to importance?
On the one hand, cyclists want to be treated as equals with motorists when it comes to rights to the roadway. Then they go and break rules they don't think should apply to them. But would you say it's ok for motorists to run lights?
I kind of understand when folks get bent when the cops start enforcing the more obscure laws, no bell or no reflectors. But come on running red lights, how old were we when we learned that red means stop? Yes I run lights when the intersection is clear, but I'd take my lumps if I got caught. Just like tons of us drive ten over the speed limit on the freeways, but we don't whine about it when we finally get caught. So quit your whining.
Treespeed - are you agreeing with me? I forgot the insert the [/SARCASM] tag in my message. Sorry! :D
brokenrobot
11-16-05, 07:55 PM
I realize that the cops in NYC have been pretty harsh on cyclists rights during CM and writing tickets for missing reflectors and such lately, but you can hardly get all wound up for getting a ticket for running a red light. If your really so concerned about it, here's a thought, obey the law. But that's just me being crazy.
Sure. But it's TOTALLY REASONABLE to get wound up when you're ticketed for not having reflectors when they aren't required by law in the first place - and a heck of a lot of the tickets being written are for things like that.
Sure. But it's TOTALLY REASONABLE to get wound up when you're ticketed for not having reflectors when they aren't required by law in the first place - and a heck of a lot of the tickets being written are for things like that.
Check your vehicle code. I know in California, front and rear reflectors are required by law. Here in Australia, you need reflectors, a bell or horn, at least 1 working brake, a helmet, and if it's a child's bike, we're required to deliver them to the customer with a chainguard.
If someone got a ticket for not having reflectors, it's in the vehicle code. I think the actual text is something along the lines of a clear light or reflector up front visible for x amount of feet/metres, and red for the rear. The only catch is that it usually states this is required for operating the bicycle at night. Dusk is your gray area.
brokenrobot
11-16-05, 08:27 PM
NYC law says reflectors must be on all new bikes when sold, and must be on all bikes ridden between a half-hour past sundown and a half-hour before sunup. Ticketing cyclists in the middle of the day for not having reflectors is ticketing on the basis of a law which does not exist - which is why I think those tickets are bogus.
I can promise you: a cop's saying something is illegal does NOT mean he's right. Getting a ticket for an offense does NOT mean that offense is in the Code. If the city is using the system itself as a punishment - and they are - it doesn't matter whether the ticket (or the arrest) sticks - it's the inconvenience that's the point of the exercise.
chipcom
11-16-05, 08:59 PM
Ticketing cyclists for running red lights has nothing to do with safety -- it's about perceived public disorder, and marginalizing a minority.
I don't necessarily agree. Sometimes these things are just SOP. We have lots of laws that we all pretty much bend, break or ignore on a mass scale. Speed limits, seat belts, rolling stops, etc. are all examples. Government doesn't have the resources to enforce every law on the books, so in theory, yes, they go after the ones that pose the greatest risk or have the best cost-benefit ratio or have some political benefit. The nimby laws that are broken regularly are seldom actively enforced. But sometimes you have to remind folks that they are indeed breaking the law, even if it is rarely enforced. One way to do so is a temporary but very visible crack down that hits people in their pocketbooks. Granted, what they collect in fines doesn't hurt their slush funds, but in the grand sheme of things, the money they collect really isn't worth the effort expended, from a strictly bean counter standpoint.
And don't even start with that "Quota" crap. I was discussing that with a cop once. He looked me right in the eye, and asked me if I thought even for one second there was a cop out there that couldn't write tickets all day. They would be questioned if they wrote less tickets than whatever counts as an average amount, but they certainly wouldn't need to look far to write a few.
In NSW, one cop with a hand-held speed camera recorded over 180 speeders in an hour. That's revenue raising.
Treespeed
11-17-05, 11:42 AM
Treespeed - are you agreeing with me? I forgot the insert the [/SARCASM] tag in my message. Sorry! :D
Expat, definitely agreeing with you. The quit your whining was directed at the light runners and the topic changers. Maybe they write tickets in NYC for no reflectors, but here in South Los Angeles no cop is going to hassle you for riding without reflectors. The only folks who ride down here with no reflectors are workers riding on the sidewalks and they know they can't afford to pay the fine anyways. While I don't have reflectors I think if I went into court with my current double blinkie setup the fine would be dismissed pretty quickly. I know cops hassle people, I've had it happen in Beverly Hills, but my point is if you don't want the fine, don't do the crime. It's really simple, is there something I'm not getting here? Expat, help me out.
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