Advocacy & Safety - hothead driver jumps out of car, I forgot the pepper spray

Riding today, clipping along on my schwinn corvette 5 down a good hill, i'm doing 20 or so in the bike lane on one of the more heavily bike ridden streets in Seattle. I usually have pepper spray taped to the seat stay of my commuter bike. Today, though, I'm out for a joy ride on the schwinn, so no spray.

Ahead of me, a cab is stopped ahead in the lane, dropping off. I hand out to the left and take the lane, all good. Before I can merge back, a mercedes guns it past me in the middle turn lane. Instead of him motoring along, he decides to hang back, and rolls down his window to comment on my biking. The driver is a consumptive, overweight guy with the look of a chronic boozer. I immediately let him know with copious volume and profanity that I have every right to the lane, didn't he see the cab, etc...

So he starts playing aggressive driver with me, slowing and squeezing, I drop back, then pass him on his left because he keeps holding back to jack with me. I signal and pull past him back into the bike lane. He's got his the drivers window down now too, hollering at me. So, I'm in the bike lane again, playing dodgeball with this guy. He finally pulls over right in front of me and jumps out, screaming the typish "come here, you little fokker!" so I dodge him into the lane. About 30 feet ahead theres 5 or 6 people at a bus stop.

I pull off the road by the bus stop and the people. The guy starts running and screaming at me, and I hold him back verbably and with the observer factor of the crowd working to my advantage. I'm screaming "Aggressive driver, you were threatening me with your car, I have every right to pass the cab..." The cab has pulled up by now and has slowed down in the lane, looking on too. I pointedly ask the guy at the top of my lungs "Have you been drinking? Does that let you threaten people in your Mercedes?" or something and he pretty much lost the joust right there.

He finishes off his deflated tirade with a "I just want to kick your ass" and I'm like, yeah, right, sweetie!" too bad I broke my hip 3 months ago or might have egged him on to get more physical, but wasn't willing to risk a throw down with a glass hip.

Anyway, no real foul. I know some of you may feel I should have done the ignore thing, or the friendly wave thing, but I tend to become very verbally defensive if some driver has rolled down his window to play the 'educate the cyclist' game.

So, I feel I could have saved myself a lot of grief if I could have just reached down and pepper sprayed the son of a gun as soon as he jumped out of the car to threaten me. It could have been a lot worse, the guy could have been more aggressive, if people and the cabbie hadn't been around. Any comments?

I think it would have been very effective to say, with witnesses present, "Aggressive driver, you were threatening me with your car, I have every right to pass the cab..." and finish the sentence by describing his Mercedes and license plate number, and noting that you will be filing a police report of the incident.

Having the cab's number (and some witnesses contact numbers) would have been good too-- another witness (if nothing else, the cab driver could testify that he had indeed just dropped a passenger off at that spot).

Then file a police report and nail the fat ****.

i was pissed today when i was going 25 in a 30 zone with no bike lane and this old man with a trailer passed with a car coming the other way and the trailer came inches from me. i wish people in their cars could just relax and make this more enjoyable for us

If the guy had been drinking, I think the police would be interested to know that. Immediately.

pepperspraying someone, am i missing something? i thought pepperspray was for personal defense. it seems to me if you thought this guy was intoxicated you would of been best served by staying the heck out of his way and give him more space.

i dunno i just don't go around exchaning profanities with jerks behind the wheel, is this the norm simply reach for the pepperspray if said jerk pulls over and now wants to take it up a notch. am i the only one that simply jumps up on the sidewalk and watch as cars that do dumb stuff go off into the distance, then slip back into the flow..

it can happen to get so caught up in the moment. We all get caught short sometimes and come back with equally surly and agressive behavior. Better to think to yourself, "I'll just go along like the intelligent biker I am and leave this POS to his own misery." - then maybe he'll speed past you and crash into a building somewhere up ahead.

The driver is a consumptive, overweight guy with the look of a chronic boozer.

He ought to be shot.


Anyway, no real foul. I know some of you may feel I should have done the ignore thing, or the friendly wave thing, but I tend to become very verbally defensive if some driver has rolled down his window to play the 'educate the cyclist' game.

Naw, it's always smart to try to escalate the situation so you have to use your spray!! FUN!!

i thought pepperspray was for personal defense.

If some fool is trying to run you off the road with his Mercedes, a shot of pepperspray followed by a prompt u-turn is probably personal defense. The problem is that he didn't realize what type of damage he could've done with his car and from the sound of it was trying to use it as a potential weapon. Pepper spray is not the recommended action, but it is a viable option, IMO.

I personally go for the yell and wave hands in the air like an epileptical jackyll, than get the hell out of the way routine. I find it works better than attempting to get into a physical (or chemical) altercation with the driver, being that I don't wanna risk my freedom (in case I get carried away) or my life due to someone using their vehicle as a weapon against me.

Bek, that's funny stuff. You and a small crowd of busgoers waiting for a driver to come-a-pummeling your way. Suppose you shouldn't have passed him after he made an ass out of himself. The yelling vulgarities is flame for his fire...but I know how that goes.

Depending on you Schwinn and how quick you are with that hip, you could've tried something big. The manuever is one I've only heard of, from a guy who owns a courier business in SF; Angry motorist shouts, biker retorts with no unusual desire but for vindication. Driver stops and gets out to batter biker. Biker taunts and leads driver away from car. Biker gets to car and removes keys and places them in an unreachable place. Seattle is near water... you'd think of something.

The guy I knew was a motorcyclist and quite aggressive, so this was a wise tactic for him. Also, the incident took place on a bridge and the keys made a splash. I can't condone, but for a lesson to be learned one must impress greatly. What would the perp tell his wife/friends/tow driver?

My general rule of thumb is "Let trouble pass you by". Most times in traffic, letting the problem go, solves the problem.

You might have had pepper spray. He might have had a gun. You decide.

In any case, I can't say that I've always resisted the urge to tell a driver off either. It's always a judgement call.

Once they get out of thier car, it's always fun to go back and get the keys and toss them into the bushes.

This does assume that you can outrun them, and in this case it sounds like it was possible.

Also, take your bike with you, don't leave it behind.

I did this to someone once a long time ago. Me and a friend were riding and this lady nearly right hooks my buddy. She made the turn with tires screeching since she had to speed up to pass us right before making the right turn. He managed to turn with her rather than go over or under the car, but it was close. I was impressed by his riding.

At any rate, he kicks her car after the apex of the turn and she slams on her brakes, stops and gets out yelling. Walks over to my buddy and starts waving her finger in his face. I roll up on the driver's side of the car with the door open and the keys in the ignition. I reach over, pull them out, jingle them once to get both of thier attention and then toss them as far as I can into a vacant lot.

Then we rode off laughing. We laughed for a long time and sometimes still even laugh about it.

Az

Any comments?

Most EXCELLENT!

In this case I feel your actions were appropriate. You did the right thing at confronting him amongst witnesses. If it were different I might say you should have done the ignore thing, but not in this case. Did you notice an open bottle of booze in his vehicle, or smell it on him?

Been there done that Bek. Can't pass any judgement. I think it might have something to do with when an aggressive person uses their thousands of pounds of steel vehicle to threaten my flesh and bones on purpose. Can I help it if the primitive part of my brain tells my adrenal cortex to release powerful hormones which change my brain chemistry into a fighting machine? Well, maybe I can, but anyway, I've lost it too on many occasions.

On the other hand, I hope you are able to avoid toxic personalities like this in the future. Don't want to see you get hurt by some ape.

the problem with these situations are that you're not just dealing with the traffic altercation. you're dealing with all of his problems and they're focused directly at you. be it his drinking, stress from work, marrage going down the tube, lack of love as a child, etc. all that frustration usually comes out all at once, and you're a convienent scape goat. be safe out there, never know who you'll run into and what kind of problems they have.

Great story glad to hear nothing too bad came of it for you. Makes me think that I should keep my cell phone handy so that I can call in an agressive driver's license. I'd probably would have behaved much the same way.

stories like this make me realize how much i need to practice memorizing plate numbers. i just need to get in the habit of noticing them and trying to recite it to myself. just in case.

Bek,
I am a commuter in Seattle. Riding from Ballard to Pike Market, then hoping a vanpool to SeaTac.
Been doing this ride 3x per week for five years. I been trouble-free since then.
A few mornings ago a driver in a residential neighborhood street forced me off the road.
It was obvious that it was intentional. When I came to the next stop sign, adjacent the car, I pouned the car body with my fist and he drive off and ignored me.
I immediatly regreted the physical response, but I was overcome with anger and surprised myself.

Even though it was dark (6am) I know he saw me and decided to make me a target.
(I was wearing bright , reflective clothes and all the correct lighting. )
I was taking the street as it is narrow and only one car at a time can travel it.
I was riding about 16 mph for 2 blocks.
It was obvious was pissed.
Do you have a sense that drivers are becoming more confrontational in the Emerald City?

p

The driver is a consumptive, overweight guy with the look of a chronic boozer.

I think the government must have a special program where they breed these people from waste matter. It's the only explanation.

Good solution, pulling up to a crowd to confront this jerk. Good thinking on your part.

In the Boston area, this type usually has a Jeep grand Cherokee.

Bek,
I am a commuter in Seattle.
Do you have a sense that drivers are becoming more confrontational in the Emerald City?

p


Yes, I do. Absolutely. I've been riding for over 30 years, and commuting in seattle for over a decade, and I have seen much more aggro behavior in the last, maybe two years? Perhaps I can date it back to post 911 as a benchmark, I surmise it is happening all across America.

There's some radio shock jockeys and ridiculous anti bike op eds in the papers fanning the flames. Some Mercer Islanders want to allow only residents to bike there, for instance. Seattle's group psyche is so dispassionately passive aggressive, overlaid with lala latte land saccharine dusting, so I see a lot of hostile drivers out there.


Yeah, I've had two drivers in the past year now that wanted to roll down their windows and chosen to take my retorts so personally they had to screech to a halt and jump out to potentially assult me.

THAT is why I have pepper spray taped to the seat stays of my commuter- I feel, if a driver is taking the action towards me of threatening me with his car bumper, screeches into my path, and jumps out, attempt to door me, and wants to assult me, it's ALREADY an assult and some pepper spray to the chops is merited and justifable defensive behavior.

Any comments?

Good going, one could only hope that one could provoke such rage in those type of folks (consumptive, overweight, old drunk) to cause a heart attack. That would be my wish.

I'm sorry for your experience. I don't think I'd have been quite so confrontational myself, but I understand your reaction in the heat of the moment. Glad no one was hurt. My compliments to you on focusing your post(s) on the individual in question, rather than generalizing to everyone operating an automobile.

I'd like to tell you off Bek, but that would make me a hypocrite. A similar thing happened to me a couple weeks ago, and I went off even worse than you did. This happened when I was walking, not riding, with my 30 year old stepson, Jerry. A cager turned left as we were crossing a side street. He missed hitting us both by about 6 inches. Jerry and I yelled that pedestrians have the right of way, you effin' moron. The guy stopped his car in the middle of the intersection (!) and jumped out. I started yelling at him to get back in his car right now. Out of he corner of my eye I saw Jerry whipping his shirt off to fight. Now, Jerry is on probation, while I am considered an upstanding citizen with no police record whatsoever. I got between Jerry and the guy, and when the guy kept walking toward me I punched him twice in the head. I was yelling that he was a effin' lunatic to stop his car with his wife and little boy in it, and to get back in his car. As soon as I punched him he went back into the car and drove off. A minute later a cop car cruised by and looked us over real good, then kept going. It was a real wierd situation.

So bek, I can understand why you reacted the way you did. I do believe that the best response for me (and probably for you as well) would have been to walk (or ride) away from the situation. For both of us, we certainly were in a bad position legally, if a cop had witnessed the event. And morally too, I think it's better to remain peaceful and in control. Unfortunately, sometimes it's hard to live up to one's own standards of decency.

On the taking the keys thing. Find nearest postal drop box and drop em in :)

It is strange that many of the people who posted on this thread can justify their own rae and anger, but believe the angry cager should die or otherwise be punished. This makes no sense to me.

If it's OK for a cyclist to go off on a cager, I'm pretty sure the reverse must be OK too.

So, I feel I could have saved myself a lot of grief if I could have just reached down and pepper sprayed the son of a gun as soon as he jumped out of the car to threaten me. It could have been a lot worse, the guy could have been more aggressive, if people and the cabbie hadn't been around. Any comments?

Engaging a motorist with pepper spray or any other weapon is a really bad idea. You have no idea what this guy could be on, he could be schizophrenic, or suffer from other mental issues, and he could be packing heat. Even if none of the above are true and you are successful, you invite retaliation by him (or his friends) at some point in the future. By the time you consider the surprise factor and laws of physics, chances are you'll not come out ahead in the long run.

I understand adrenaline and getting caught up in the moment, but you gotta let your head stay in control or you'll just be suffering from road rage on a bike. Plus any witnesses will just see a wacko driver and wacko cyclist going at each other so no one will want to help.

Yeah, note to anyone who is going to use mace or pepper spray...the person that you sprayed will kill you if they manage to get their hands on you.

Engaging a motorist with pepper spray or any other weapon is a really bad idea. You have no idea what this guy could be on, he could be schizophrenic, or suffer from other mental issues, and he could be packing heat. Even if none of the above are true and you are successful, you invite retaliation by him (or his friends) at some point in the future. By the time you consider the surprise factor and laws of physics, chances are you'll not come out ahead in the long run.

I understand adrenaline and getting caught up in the moment, but you gotta let your head stay in control or you'll just be suffering from road rage on a bike. Plus any witnesses will just see a wacko driver and wacko cyclist going at each other so no one will want to help.
Good post. Thanks.

Yeah, just punch him in the head like Roody does. What a hothead, its guys like you, roody..."I'm an outstanding citizen" but you're the one throwing the punches.


I'm riding my bike, some idiot threatens me with his car, and stops to attack me. How am I not justified in using pepper spray? I understand all the ramifications of the situation.

If i was a pedestrian or an 11 year old girl getting assulted by a driver, would I be allowed to defend myself?

Engaging a motorist with pepper spray or any other weapon is a really bad idea. You have no idea what this guy could be on, he could be schizophrenic, or suffer from other mental issues, and he could be packing heat. Even if none of the above are true and you are successful, you invite retaliation by him (or his friends) at some point in the future. By the time you consider the surprise factor and laws of physics, chances are you'll not come out ahead in the long run.

I understand adrenaline and getting caught up in the moment, but you gotta let your head stay in control or you'll just be suffering from road rage on a bike. Plus any witnesses will just see a wacko driver and wacko cyclist going at each other so no one will want to help.

for a while there i was beginning to think i had reached some secret level of consciousness or something.

as long as we have to share the road with the carfolk, can we just except that stuff is going to happen and not get too bent out of shape about it. every now and then you just have to let stuff like this go, kill em' with kindness, but lets not mistake my kindness for weakness... words i live by-

in my city, i've seen people pulled out of their cars for simply laying on the horn, heck a few weeks back i watched 2 cars in bumper to bumper traffic shout back and forth with each other only to end with one car getting shot up by the other...

I've taken the avice here and started to memorize cab numbers and plate numbers of cars with aggressive operators. I'll be ready to call the driver by "name" (number, that is) if things ever get as bad as the OP mentioned.

Pepper spray seems excessive unless the dude is coming right at you. Sounds like he was too much of a punk to actually do anything.

It is strange that many of the people who posted on this thread can justify their own rae and anger, but believe the angry cager should die or otherwise be punished. This makes no sense to me.

If it's OK for a cyclist to go off on a cager, I'm pretty sure the reverse must be OK too.

In the case cited, the cager deliberately attacked the cyclist first... The cyclist "going off" was simply defending.

If you are going to use pepper spray it is a good idea to let the other guy hit you first. The self-defense claim stands up much better if you've got an injury to show.

In the case cited, the cager deliberately attacked the cyclist first... The cyclist "going off" was simply defending.
Sorry I was unclear. I was not referring to the OP, but to some others who responded along the lines that he was fat and deserved to die.

Yeah, just punch him in the head like Roody does. What a hothead, its guys like you, roody..."I'm an outstanding citizen" but you're the one throwing the punches.


I'm riding my bike, some idiot threatens me with his car, and stops to attack me. How am I not justified in using pepper spray? I understand all the ramifications of the situation.

If i was a pedestrian or an 11 year old girl getting assulted by a driver, would I be allowed to defend myself?
Again, I wasn't criticizing you (I mean I wasn't meaning to), and I sure wasn't trying to say I was better than you. And I sure agree that I should not have hit that guy. I mean it was self-defense, but I could have probably defended myself by just walking away. I was more worried that my son, who is on probation, would get in trouble, whereas I, "an upstanding citizen," would probably not get in trouble. That is the hypocricy of the law. I'm not usually a hothead, but I sure was that time.

A similar thing happened to me a couple weeks ago, and I went off even worse than you did.

Tsk. What would Forester have done?

I think in this case you would be justified in using force (pepper spray, fists etc) because the guy had already assaulted you when he tried to run you off the road, etc., and he was threatening physical harm to you again when he got out of the car and came up to you. You have to make the split second decision to fight or not and if you do, hit first, hit as hard as you can and hit again until the guy is immobilised.

If you are going to pepper spray somebody, be ready to run, or finish it off, like Rule said, he is going to be pissed off. I do not agree with foible that you should let him hit you first. The first person to throw a punch usually wins.

Tsk. What would Forester have done?

Through some odd magic, this never happens in his world... or in other hard core VC cyclists' world either. They seem to only have rose pedals sprinkled along their path, which of course they also avoid as motorists humbly and gently sweep the road before them.


;)

Through some odd magic, this never happens in his world... or in other hard core VC cyclists' world either. They seem to only have rose pedals sprinkled along their path, which of course they also avoid as motorists humbly and gently sweep the road before them.


;)

How did you know I had everyone in this county attach brooms to their rear bumpers? ;)

edit-Now if I could just get them to drive in the BLs........... :D

Tsk. What would Forester have done? Written a 5000 word essay about it?

Well, so much for the image of Seattle being full of young, hip, easy going people. And potty-mouthed shock jocks as well? Their parents must be so proud....

Some good points on just letting it go. Remember the cyclist in Denver who was shot point-blank in the chest at an intersection, by an irate motorist? If I remember correctly, the verbal confrontation started at one intersection, then continued at the next one, where the actual shooting happened.

Again, I ask my famous "no real answer" question: How did we get to this point in this country?

Here is an old link on the incident.

http://www.ihpva.org/pipermail/hpv/2000-May/005291.html

Again, I ask my famous "no real answer" question: How did we get to this point in this country?



I donno, but since it is motorists shooting at each other and others... seems like it is a motorist based problem. Fix them and solve this issue.

I think men are too territorial for their --everyone's-- own good.

For anyone who happens to have a cell phone that has a built-in video or still camera, don't forget the ability to get photos of a person/vehicle/license plate, and/or video footage.

No foul taken, Roody, I just didn't like the tell me off comment!

I'm the same way, always trying to keep things calm (in these types of unsolicited 'driver education'scenarios) by yelling at the other guy with "stow it, you idiot" line of talk. Which is about what I was giving the guy the first time he's yelling at me through the open window....

You might think about printing up a small run of business cards with the appropriate RCW printed on them, which in this case I believe would be Revised Code of Washington 46.61.780 (riding as close as reasonable to the unobstructed traveled edge of the through lane, or whatever the present wording is). Not that you would always want to get within arms' reach of a belligerent, irrational motorist, of course.

I'm gonna start practicing my zen driver mind control techniques more often, folks, thanks for the commentary. Won't stop me from packing pepper sauce on my rides though, both for mad dogs AND mad drivers.

:) Beck

You might think about printing up a small run of business cards with the appropriate RCW printed on them, which in this case I believe would be Revised Code of Washington 46.61.780 (riding as close as reasonable to the unobstructed traveled edge of the through lane, or whatever the present wording is). Not that you would always want to get within arms' reach of a belligerent, irrational motorist, of course.

I have done this with the CVC... I have found in my confrontations with motorist that they have their own concept of the laws governing the roads and will defend these to no end... of course with the focus being that bikes don't belong on the road.

Just telling motorists that there is law and it permits cyclists on the road isn't enough... they will deny that these laws exist... so I give each motorist a card with the hopes that they will at least do more then simply throw them away.

I am also thinking about making copies of certain sections of the driver's handbook.

I guess we each have to educate the drivers one by one... certainly they need it.

I'm gonna start practicing my zen driver mind control techniques more often, folks, thanks for the commentary. Won't stop me from packing pepper sauce on my rides though, both for mad dogs AND mad drivers.

:) Beck
I'm getting into meditation too. But I don't set much stock in pepper spray. I think old fashioned punch in the head is more reliable. :D

Once they get out of thier car, it's always fun to go back and get the keys and toss them into the bushes.

This does assume that you can outrun them, and in this case it sounds like it was possible.

Also, take your bike with you, don't leave it behind.

I did this to someone once a long time ago. Me and a friend were riding and this lady nearly right hooks my buddy. She made the turn with tires screeching since she had to speed up to pass us right before making the right turn. He managed to turn with her rather than go over or under the car, but it was close. I was impressed by his riding.

At any rate, he kicks her car after the apex of the turn and she slams on her brakes, stops and gets out yelling. Walks over to my buddy and starts waving her finger in his face. I roll up on the driver's side of the car with the door open and the keys in the ignition. I reach over, pull them out, jingle them once to get both of thier attention and then toss them as far as I can into a vacant lot.

Then we rode off laughing. We laughed for a long time and sometimes still even laugh about it.

Az

Now that was a good one... They may have passed out from the walking they had to find the keys!

Keep Cycling,

It is strange that many of the people who posted on this thread can justify their own rae and anger, but believe the angry cager should die or otherwise be punished. This makes no sense to me.

If it's OK for a cyclist to go off on a cager, I'm pretty sure the reverse must be OK too.

Lets see 25 lb bike vs. 3,000lb vehicle. You do the math. Who will win? The cager is throwing his weight around in more way than one. The cyclist is the solution...not the polution! We all have a choice on how we get from point A to point B. We are choosing the most earth friendly method. We shouldn't have to face death from an angry driver who can't wait a few moments to let us be on our way. Most of the time we get to the next intersection where we move into the next lane or make a turn. We are just as valid for transportation as someone who drives a big hunk of metal. We aren't causing other's asthma. I could go on... Just go by a junk yard! I haven't ever seen one for bikes. They just seem to be used for some many things. They can be recycled much better than vehicles. They have less toxic parts too!

Keep Cycling,

Jeff