1 lane of traffic each direction, and you'd already favored a bike lane bias, noise. Besides, I think we're all riding behind HelmetHead as he [Moderator Removed: Personal attack] in the bike lane.

What in the heck does the Viet Cong have to do with bicycle riding? I thought they went out of business when the war was over.

Al

This sounds like what I described. Another point and this assumes the road is flat and it is me that is riding - I'd proably be traveling anywhere from 20-28mph. This means the closing distance of traffic from rear is ~15mph. But my closing distances with obsticals, pedistrians, parked cars, cars parking, turning is 25mph. That is another good reason to be in the primary travel lane - stuff from the rear is closing slower than situations up ahead are developing. It sounds like there are two main travel lanes so being in the right most one and moving over as cars approach from rear seems quite easy to handle safely.

Al

There are no flat roads in Seattle. At some stretches you might be going 30-35 mph. Other stretches you might be going 10.

There are no flat roads in Seattle. At some stretches you might be going 30-35 mph. Other stretches you might be going 10.
I know in general, but is this particular stretch flat, or very low grade? We are discussing a specfic stretch of road. If this road does have a notable grade, then it should have been mentioned as it will affect lane positioning depending on which direction one is cycling.
Al

A lightweight 700 x 23c at 130 psi is probably more vulnerable to puncture than whatever you're running on your recumbent. Solid rubber? :)
Over my whole life I've rarely had flats. I've only had a recumbent for one year. It runs a fairly standard 1 3/4 width 26" wheel in back. On recumbents, the smaller wheels aren't much different from BMX tires, but with the fine craftsmanship of your fancy 700 x 23c tire.

I know in general, but is this particular stretch flat, or very low grade? We are discussing a specfic stretch of road. If this road does have a notable grade, then it should have been mentioned as it will affect lane positioning depending on which direction one is cycling.
Al

I don't know, I only lived in Seattle for a couple years and was attending school there most of the time - didn't get out much. You are right in noting that lane position is very different when going up and down hills, or on the flat. It is safe to assume, though, that at least in one direction, you will be going up hill and be riding significantly slower than cars going by. This is probably a better assumption, for the Seattle area, than assuming the road to be flat.

Over my whole life I've rarely had flats. I've only had a recumbent for one year. It runs a fairly standard 1 3/4 width 26" wheel in back. On recumbents, the smaller wheels aren't much different from BMX tires, but with the fine craftsmanship of your fancy 700 x 23c tire.

For what it's worth, I ride three road bikes, all with 700 x 23c tires, in bike lanes no less, on a road with lots of crushed rock scattered about from dump trucks, and rarely get flats. It has more to do with tire pressure than with terrain. Nobody should run a 700 x 23c tire at 120 psi or higher. Pressure should be more like 100-110 psi. If HH is riding at 130 psi, that's his problem, not the road surface.

I agree with you, the problem of "bike lane debris" is vastly overstated, especially in the "bike lane debate." Yes, there is some, but it is hardly the worst of my concerns. Certainly not enough to register as an advantage or disadvantage in any certain road facility.

For what it's worth, I ride three road bikes, all with 700 x 23c tires, in bike lanes no less, on a road with lots of crushed rock scattered about from dump trucks, and rarely get flats. It has more to do with tire pressure than with terrain. Nobody should run a 700 x 23c tire at 120 psi or higher. Pressure should be more like 100-110 psi. If HH is riding at 130 psi, that's his problem, not the road surface.

I agree with you, the problem of "bike lane debris" is vastly overstated, especially in the "bike lane debate." Yes, there is some, but it is hardly the worst of my concerns. Certainly not enough to register as an advantage or disadvantage in any certain road facility.
I ride 700x25c and have only had one flat in the last 2yrs (7500mi+)
There is less debris here compared to other cities, but shoulders rural roads/hiways round here can get nasty. When there is debris on the urban/suburban roads it tends to be broken bottles (which last about 2wks in BL before final pieces gets swept away -every day moves the glass field over a couple inches) or a scattering 1" landscaping rocks, a palm frond or tree branch here and there and the occasional 6" rock (river rock) finds in way in the BL which as small enough to not see if not paying attention in dusk lighting, but large enough to throw one off the bike. I once found a large landscaping decorative rock about 2 feet in diameter that I found hard to lift, roll and move out of the BL. But thats a once every year type of debris. ;) Snow, wet leaves - never an issue.

Al

I ride 700x25c and have only had one flat in the last 2yrs (7500mi+)
There is less debris here compared to other cities, but shoulders rural roads/hiways round here can get nasty. When there is debris on the urban/suburban roads it tends to be broken bottles (which last about 2wks in BL before final pieces gets swept away -every day moves the glass field over a couple inches) or a scattering 1" landscaping rocks, a palm frond or tree branch here and there and the occasional 6" rock (river rock) finds in way in the BL which as small enough to not see if not paying attention in dusk lighting, but large enough to throw one off the bike. I once found a large landscaping decorative rock about 2 feet in diameter that I found hard to lift, roll and move out of the BL. But thats a once every year type of debris. ;) Snow, wet leaves - never an issue.

Al

palm frond... no rain...snow... no wet leaves...

Wouldn't we all love to have it so hard. :D

Different designs of same-size tires can accomodate different pressures. When I said 130 psi, I was thinking of high pressure 700x23s - I've seen some rated as high as 150psi. But, I do usually run about 110 in my current tires, where are rated 120 or 130 max (I'm out of town and can't check).

At any rate, I tend to go about 5,000 miles between flats. The last one I got was on a group ride a few months when the whole pack went through the "rubble triangle" of an intersection. 20 feet later... bam!

palm frond... no rain...snow... no wet leaves...

Wouldn't we all love to have it so hard. :D
Then again I've heard other riders here complain about how much glass, how many nails (lots of new home construction in parts) and junk are in the BL/shoulders. Lots of landscaping trailers here that leave a trail of often large debris behind them - often sharp from thorns. I find a lot of metal bars (curtain rods, L-angle stuff used for corners when sheetrocking, wire conduit, etc.) But fine debris (sand, small organic particles, etc.) is less common here compared to back east where I cycled as a kid.

Al

Then again I've heard other riders here complain about how much glass, how many nails (lots of new home construction in parts) and junk are in the BL/shoulders. Lots of landscaping trailers here that leave a trail of often large debris behind them - often sharp from thorns. I find a lot of metal bars (curtain rods, L-angle stuff used for corners when sheetrocking, wire conduit, etc.) But fine debris (sand, small organic particles, etc.) is less common here compared to back east where I cycled as a kid.

Al

In the Northwest, we don't have much of what you describe; at least not where I have riden in Portland and Seattle. More of the fine gravel if anything. Only along one highway have I seen sizeable rocks (1 inch diameter) and other debris, and that highway has a disproportionate number of dump trucks from rock quaries nearby.

Perhaps another unacknowledged environmental distinction driving these debates.

Perhaps another unacknowledged environmental distinction driving these debates.
The 1/2" to 1" debris is from rocks that are used as ground covering between sidewalk and curb - lanscaping worker clearning debris from the rocks, kids, etc. push them over the curb into the shoulder all the time.

Al

The 1/2" to 1" debris is from rocks that are used as ground covering between sidewalk and curb - lanscaping worker clearning debris from the rocks, kids, etc. push them over the curb into the shoulder all the time.

Al

Over here, those areas are usually covered in grass or trees, sometimes bark mulch or crushed rock. Very seldom do we have landscaping rocks covering the area between the sidewalk and the curb. We would spend so much effort trying to keep weeds from growing there, might as well put living things there to start with.

So, this group of BF riders is riding with a bike lane bias mostly, and dodging debris and maintaining adequate visibility as we approach intersections and other possible obstructions/ vehicles along Rainier Ave S?

Is that the consensus?

Is that the consensus?
Why are you looking for consensus? There will never be, not just because we are a group of riders with different styles and experiences, but mainly because it is so situationally dependent - a situation that can not be fully conveyed in writing.

I'll say it again and I know its true for most folks here: One can never know the best place to ride on any given stretch of road unless one is riding on it at the moment taking in the environment and dynamics first hand.

Al

Are a couple of you guys still going to insist on riding in the traffic lane on Rainier Ave S ALL THE TIME, and make the peloton look bad?

Just keepin' it real, noise, just keepin' it real.

I think there's a consensus that no one's avoiding the bike lane just because it's a bike lane.

I agree with LCI_Brian.
Beyond that, I agree with Al. Many of us would probably choose a different line each time we rode there (much like motorcyclists choose different lines each time they ride down a given road) so how could we ever choose the same line as someone else each time?

I agree with LCI_Brian.
Beyond that, I agree with Al. Many of us would probably choose a different line each time we rode there (much like motorcyclists choose different lines each time they ride down a given road) so how could we ever choose the same line as someone else each time?

Well perhaps not exactly the same 3/4 inch "same line" each time, but within perhaps a definable route... so I would probably ride just about 6 inches to the right of the BL line... unless that was blocked by debris or I needed to move out at an intersection... does that define the "same line" each time? Not hardly... nearly the same line? Probabaly, but it is indeed situational, just as the amount of time I would spend at a stop sign is situational each time... is there other traffic? is there a need to look twice? can I just blast throught it as no one is even on the roads? Thus "situational circumstances can cause one to vary from ride to ride, but essentially, the same "route" is probably used.

Okay, McGruff the safety dog is just about ready to hand out the ribbons for participating in this discussion....

I hope everyone has had enough time and space in this thread to voice their opinions on riding bikes on Rainier Ave S....

Situational analysis dodges aside, there is a definite 'best choice' on this road. Rainier Ave S as described has well marked bike lanes alongside one lane of traffic, with adequate buffer zones between the bike lane and parking.

Almost all of us responded here with situational disclaimers, or the 'unique every time' approach. Agreed, in real world cycling, unique situational analysis gets applied every second you are on the bike.

Somewhere in the posts, LCI_Brian asks, "where would one ride on this road without the bike lane?"

Most all of us were able to deduce from the limited vision of what Rainier Ave S actually looks like, a position favoring the bike lane would be the preffered positioning on this road.

preferred: far enough away from parked cars, in a good, visible position to other roadway users, and in a WOL (with or without stripes) far enough over to the right to allow safe lane sharing with traffic. Avoiding moving into lanes of higher speed traffic unnecessarily.


Those tactics for riding seem universal among the various bicycling education schools.


SO, without attempting to reopen a very stale and dried out can of worms,

Mc Gruff the safety dog says, "good job, everyone! All the bikers on this Bike Forums peloton have made it to Renton from Seattle safely along Rainier Ave South.

McGruff has "Champion" ribbons for all the bikers who chose to ride with a bike lane bias.

Not so pretty, kind of puce colored "Consolation" ribbons to those of us that chose a more conservative line with a bias towards the right of the bike lanes, or in the parking lane.

And for the bikers choosing traffic lane positioning, a 30 minute tape of cars honking."