What's better?

[sbhikes]

I'd like to suggest that predictability (both of us to motorists and motorists to us) is more important than lane positioning. In other words, if motorists are confused by your lane position, your visibility isn't going to save you.

Being behind a bike lane stripe, motorists go by you quickly and closely because you are predictable, not because they can't see you. Without a stripe, being over to the right carries the same predictability so long as you hold your line. But being in the center means--what exactly? You're going straight? Turning left? Trying to get to the other side so you can ride wrong way? Avoiding an obstacle? If the majority of cyclists don't ride that way, what are you communicating? Not what do you think you're saying but what is the driver near you thinking you're saying? If you look behind you over your left shoulder doesn't that say "I'm trying to get further left, is there an opening"? If you look over the right doesn't that say "I'm going to go to my right"?

When you come to a 4-way stop and people don't follow the rules of ROW they become unpredictable and doesn't that make you confused and/or angry? So why should anybody buy into a lane positioning scheme that carries the risk of making drivers confused and angry?

What do you think?

[Treespeed]

Diane,

in the most contentious intersections that I deal with (no diagrams included, sorry HH) I find being out in the lane to be much less contentious than to be hugging the right lane. This isn't the same as the bike lane situations you deal with, as I have either parked cars or a NOL with a steep curb. The only bike lane I deal with is such an anomoly as to be not even worth mentioning. I see where you're coming from, if your in the bike lane stay there and you'll be fine. But even if there was a bike lane, for arguments sake, all the way in on my commute I would have to leave it so often that it would be HH's proverbial waste of paint. I'm not conceding that there are no places for bike lanes, but I find when I'm predictable about my lane usage I do alright. My suspicion is that the folks who honk at me when I'm in the lane would honk at me if I was riding in the gutter too. Plus, if they're honking they see me, which is the goal isn't it.

Anyways, that's my end of work babble. Maybe something more constructive tomorrow after some coffee. Nice to get in on one of these threads before it dissolves into the normal VC/BL pedantics.

-Marcus

[Roody]

I think it's laughable to propose that VC cyclists riding in the center of the lane, cautiously looking behind them (either shoulder) are the unpredictable cyclists. Ha ha hah! The unpredictable cyclists are those who ride on the sidewalk, then dart into the street. Or those who ride in the bike lane, but the wrong damn way. Or those who ride in the center turn lane for a whole block because they're too lazy to wait to enter the correct lane. Or those who ride like little mice in the gutter, then suddenly turn left into a driveway from that righthand gutter. Or those who obediently ride in the bike lane right into an intersection then get hooked by a cager who logically thought they must be turning right, not going through. Or those who ride with their club, and split at an intersection, with some going to the left of a car and some to the right.

It really is so laughable that you try to pin the label or unpredictable on the miniscule number of people who actually try to ride safely.

[sbhikes]

Are you sure it's so predictable to ride down the center of the lane, looking back over your shoulder every 3-5 seconds? How do you know it's predictable? Is it ALWAYS predictable, under every condition? Has anybody ever thanked you for being so predictable while riding that way?

[Dchiefransom]

Are you sure it's so predictable to ride down the center of the lane, looking back over your shoulder every 3-5 seconds? How do you know it's predictable? Is it ALWAYS predictable, under every condition? Has anybody ever thanked you for being so predictable while riding that way?

A cyclist constantly looking over his shoulder is unpredictable to me. When I'm driving, I prefer the cyclist that just rides down the center of the lane without looking back., over one that's constantly looking back. It makes me expect them to make a change in their riding line.

[chipcom]

Are you sure it's so predictable to ride down the center of the lane, looking back over your shoulder every 3-5 seconds?

I'm visualizing the Hamburgler pedaling away from the McDonald's he just knocked over.
:roflmao:

[Bekologist]

Well, Diane, thinking of of high speed, 100km/h roadways with an adequate well paved shoulder to the right of the fog line, I find my lane positioning on a long tour or haul in the saddle to be MOST DEFINETELY OUT of the lane of traffic as much as possible.

Riding a more consistent line.

And on a high speed roadway with insufficent shoulder, or a crumbling fog line, as far to the right as safe, riding a consistent line, is still much more predictable to overtaking traffic, than the dance of the artful dodger.

[LCI_Brian]

I'm visualizing the Hamburgler pedaling away from the McDonald's he just knocked over.
:roflmao:
:roflmao:

[patc]

I'd like to suggest that predictability (both of us to motorists and motorists to us) is more important than lane positioning. In other words, if motorists are confused by your lane position, your visibility isn't going to save you.

Good timing on your post, I had considered posting a comment earlier today, but decided that thread had long since jumped the shark. Now I get to re-use my thought :D (I'm running low on those at the moment, I need to conserve.)

Let me begin by venturing off-topic (this goes somewhere, honest). A lot of my older photography - stuff I did for myself, as opposed to what I get paid to do - involved extreme close-ups and macro work. I also have this thing for odd angles. Quite often people won't recognize the subject of such a photo, but once I tell them they go, "Oh! I see it now". It all comes down to left-brain/right-brain issues: the human brain works by pattern matching, and things that don't fit the known patterns take much longer to be recognized, if they are at all. This and a bunch of related topics (e.g. optical illusions) were considered important enough that my college program devoted a course to them, "Visual Perception".

Ok, back to cycling. Traffic is a fast-paced environment, with many things going on simultaneously, and all too often with people operating on auto-pilot. Most vehicle collisions happen because one or more people failed to "see" (recognize) another vehicle and/or failed to understand its motion. "I didn't see him." "She came out of nowhere."

I think cyclists too often focus on visibility (e.g. bright colours and vests) or on lane positioning without thinking of the bigger concept: you must be identified by other road users, and your motion must also be correctly interpreted. In other words, they have to "see" you. And yes, Dianne, I agree that being predictable is an extremely important part of being seen, and avoiding confusion is a very important step to being predictable. In a traffic environment, sometimes with mere seconds to see and react to other vehicles, this all becomes crucial: we are blind to things we don't "see". Until you are identified as a vehicle (bike) moving in a specific way (riding forward, positioned to the right) you are just part of the background blur.

This is why some of my beliefs for not becoming road-kill include:

1- There should only be one vehicle per lane (laterally). Sharing a lane is nor expected vehicular behaviour, and thus not as easily "seen" by most car drivers.
2- There should be no lateral movement except to change lanes, it confuses everyone. Moving in/out does not improve your visibility, it makes you less likely to be "seen".
3- Use the proper lane for your destination. If you are in a bike lane and going straight, you should stay in the bike lane at the intersection, not move out! See points 1 and 2.
4- None of these rules, or any others I may list, or any others listed anywhere, take precedence over the cyclist's judgement at that particular place and time.
5- There is no such thing as a good driver, there is no such thing as a safe road.
6- The more distance between you and other vehicles, the better. A collision is a failure to keep vehicles apart.

I consider lane-sharing to be a acceptable compromise on quiet roads with wide lanes, but on busy roads the ideal is to have a bike lane, or failing that take the lane. See above.

So, if you ask me, "How should I ride here?" My answer will be, "Ride in the way that will make you visible and recognizable, and ride in a way that clearly communicates your movement on the road." A driver thinking, "WTF is that cyclist doing?" is just as dangerous to you as one who never saw you. In fact, if he can't tell what you are doing he may well never "see" you at all!

Sorry this was so long, I wanted to get that all in before the inevitable demise of this thread. :mad:

(The statements expressed above are the author's own opinions, and not represented as fact, truth, untruth, data, statistics, clinically tested, or verified in any way. Dissecting the above post for any reason shall be deemed agreement in full. Name-calling and insults will be accepted as proof of the name-caller's or insulter's penile inadequacy. The author of this post is currently very tired and underslept, and being a little silly. It is probably safest to walk away slowly. )

[The Seldom Kill]

There you are, riding along feeling the wind all around you, hearing fine detail in the traffic noises, feeling the texture of the road and you want to be predictable to someone who's travelling environment is radically different to yours. They'll also most likely have an understanding of the character of traffic that is neither right or wrong but again different to yours. Then there is the traffic law which is filled with dangerous grey areas and their understanding of that could well be wrong but also different to yours.

Trying to be predictable may not be an enhancement to safety but being obvious, reactive, cautious and patient will be. This is, and always will be, regardless of if you ride VC or not.

The thing which I feel keeps me safer than anything else is understanding the behaviour of drivers. Predict them, don't make them predict you, it has less variables in it.

[LittleBigMan]

I ride in the center of the lane for almost half of my hour-long inbound commute. Motorists routinely pass me in the adjacent inbound lane, which is where I want them to pass. Everything flows smoothly.

The problems occur when I ride to the right of this narrow lane. It's here that they get confused. They aren't sure whether to pass me within the lane, or to cross into the next lane, or to straddle the lanes. Since they usually pass me in waves of 5 or more, they sometimes squeeze each other.

The same thing occurs on two-lane streets when I'm rounding a blind curve. If I'm to the right, motorists often pass me on the curve, nearly running head-on into oncoming traffic. If I ride in the center of the lane until I'm around the bend, they wait behind me until it's clear.

But I use different lane positions all the time. If there's a safe, clean bike lane, I ride there,
end-of-story. If there's no bike lane (the usual case,) I ride to the right or in the center. The closer to the center I ride, the more caution and space motorists give me when passing.

I consider moving to the right a courtesy in busy traffic, but I'll revoke that courtesy if I feel endangered by squeezing.

[LCI_Brian]

I ride in the center of the lane for almost half of my hour-long inbound commute. Motorists routinely pass me in the adjacent inbound lane, which is where I want them to pass. Everything flows smoothly.

The problems occur when I ride to the right of this narrow lane. It's here that they get confused. They aren't sure whether to pass me within the lane, or to cross into the next lane, or to straddle the lanes. Since they usually pass me in waves of 5 or more, they sometimes squeeze each other.

The same thing occurs on two-lane streets when I'm rounding a blind curve. If I'm to the right, motorists often pass me on the curve, nearly running head-on into oncoming traffic. If I ride in the center of the lane until I'm around the bend, they wait behind me until it's clear.

But I use different lane positions all the time. If there's a safe, clean bike lane, I ride there,
end-of-story. If there's no bike lane (the usual case,) I ride to the right or in the center. The closer to the center I ride, the more caution and space motorists give me when passing.

I consider moving to the right a courtesy in busy traffic, but I'll revoke that courtesy if I feel endangered by squeezing.
Agreed ... well said.

[sbhikes]

Well, if you pick the center and stay there I'd say you're being predictable. But if you look over your shoulder every 3-5 seconds and pop in and out of the center in order to let people pass I think the message can be confusing. Motorists don't know a thing about DLLP or VC or Forrester or whatever. If there's room for you on the side I'm sure they're wondering why on earth you don't just stay there. They probably switch lanes to pass you not out of courtesy but out of fear. They don't have a clue what you're doing and want to get the heck away from you. Maybe that's ok, I don't know.

As for the idea of the difference between visibility and being seen, it's interesting because I just got a trike. A trike is wider than a normal bike. I find I use the center a little more because I take up a lot of space. However, because I don't fit any recognizable pattern, being in the center doesn't appear to make me any more visible. In fact, being in the bike lane or on the right of a WOL makes me most visible because now motorists have another visual cue as to what I am and what I'm doing. When I'm in the center they often look right at me while turning left in front of me. Basically they don't know what I am so they don't know to let me take my turn. It's an interesting exercise in seeing things from another perspective. And as I get used to it, I don't really think it's tremendously dangerous as long as I use the tools at my disposal, including bike lanes, bike paths, and taking the lane where appropriate. Maybe a well-timed drool helps, too. hehe

[LittleBigMan]

If there's room for you on the side I'm sure they're wondering why on earth you don't just stay there.
They might be wondering what kind of idiot would ride a bicycle in subfreezing temperatures, I don't know.

I really don't care what they're thinking, as long as they pass me safely.

[Treespeed]

I ride in the center of the lane for almost half of my hour-long inbound commute. Motorists routinely pass me in the adjacent inbound lane, which is where I want them to pass. Everything flows smoothly.

The problems occur when I ride to the right of this narrow lane. It's here that they get confused. They aren't sure whether to pass me within the lane, or to cross into the next lane, or to straddle the lanes. Since they usually pass me in waves of 5 or more, they sometimes squeeze each other.

The same thing occurs on two-lane streets when I'm rounding a blind curve. If I'm to the right, motorists often pass me on the curve, nearly running head-on into oncoming traffic. If I ride in the center of the lane until I'm around the bend, they wait behind me until it's clear.

But I use different lane positions all the time. If there's a safe, clean bike lane, I ride there,
end-of-story. If there's no bike lane (the usual case,) I ride to the right or in the center. The closer to the center I ride, the more caution and space motorists give me when passing.

I consider moving to the right a courtesy in busy traffic, but I'll revoke that courtesy if I feel endangered by squeezing.


That's it exactly.

I don't know about this looking over your shoulder every 3-5 seconds stuff which seems to be the crux of the unpredictability argument. I ride straight ahead and move right only when there is substantial room to move right and share the lane, but not if it is only a short gap. More often than not the few times when I've yielded and attempted to share my lane with other folks I end up regrettting it as they take advantage of the courtesy and pass to closely.

Diane, I think branding VC riders as unprecictable is just as bad as saying using the bike lane makes you invisible.

-Marcus.

[noisebeam]

Don't forget mirrors. You can use them to easily monitor traffic from behind, then use the over the shoulder look before merging left/right - combined with hand signals really makes you predictable. Now that I have a mirror that works well I am always aware of what is behind me - saying that you glance every 3-5s really doesn't explain it well, it just becomes part of the visual data you can take in whenever and as often as needed/appropriate.

Al

[Helmet Head]

Are you sure it's so predictable to ride down the center of the lane, looking back over your shoulder every 3-5 seconds?
Why would anyone ever ride down the center of the lane looking back over his shoulder every 3-5 seconds?

Are you truly incapable of asking honest questions about the techniques I and others recommend here without misrepresenting them to an absurd degree? Or is your comprehension of them so distorted that this question actually represents something you really believe you read?


Well, if you pick the center and stay there I'd say you're being predictable. But if you look over your shoulder every 3-5 seconds and pop in and out of the center in order to let people pass I think the message can be confusing.
This indicates the latter... that your comprehension is so distorted that your questions actually represent something you really believe was written and intended. I suppose, then, that there is no point in trying to explain again in writing that you will again probably misconstrue. Sigh.

[Helmet Head]

When I'm in the center they often look right at me while turning left in front of me.
Whether you're on a bike, trike, motor scooter or driving a car, when you meet with someone turning left at an intersection there are probably more similarities than differences. In particular, while the person going straight has the ROW, the left-turner is often looking for a hint that the through traveler is yielding that ROW to them. A hesitation on the part of cyclist, or tricyclist, in particular by stopping or slowing one's pedaling motion, can serve as such a hint to a left-turner.

I don't know if that's what's going on here, but have you tried shifting to a lower gear as you approach an intersection? That increases your cadence and communciates a clue to the left-turner that you are NOT yielding the ROW to them. It's not a guarantee that they'll get the clue, but at least it's a clue. The second you slow or stop pedaling, you might as well put on your brakes too, because they're probably going to turn left in front of you.

I hope this helps.

[noisebeam]

increases your cadence and communciates a clue to the left-turner that you are NOT yielding the ROW to them. .
Do you really think drivers notice cyclists cadence? I don't even notice it and I am a cyclist.
OK, you may argue it is subliminal or whatever.

Al

[I-Like-To-Bike]

A hesitation on the part of cyclist, or tricyclist, in particular by stopping or slowing one's pedaling motion, can serve as such a hint to a left-turner.

I don't know if that's what's going on here, but have you tried shifting to a lower gear as you approach an intersection? That increases your cadence and communciates a clue to the left-turner that you are NOT yielding the ROW to them. It's not a guarantee that they'll get the clue, but at least it's a clue. The second you slow or stop pedaling, you might as well put on your brakes too, because they're probably going to turn left in front of you.

I hope this helps.
It helps confirm how clueless you are to the fact that successful communication requires the receiver to understand the meaning of the sender's message. Your cryptic "clues" may mean something to you and the 0.1%'ers on your wavelength, but not a dang thing to anyone else.

[Helmet Head]

Oh come on guys, even a moron understands the connection between a cyclist's legs turning and intent to continue, and that legs not spinning implies slowing down (which can be easily interpreted as yielding). The whole point is that it isn't some cryptic message.

This is not my idea. I've read it in numerous places, tried it, and found that it helped. YMMV. Now it's just habit for me. If you want to timidly approach intersections like this coasting, suit yourself. Continuing to spin works for me, though I'm always ready to hit the brakes and/or execute a quick turn... just in case.

[noisebeam]

Oh come on guys, even a moron understands the connection between a cyclist's legs turning and intent to continue, and that legs not spinning implies slowing down (which can be easily interpreted as yielding). The whole point is that it isn't some cryptic message.

This is not my idea. I've read it in numerous places, tried it, and found that it helped. YMMV. Now it's just habit for me. If you want to timidly approach intersections like this coasting, suit yourself. Continuing to spin works for me, though I'm always ready to hit the brakes and/or execute a quick turn... just in case.
Of course most everyone understands the connection between moving legs and motion, but I argue that it is not noticed, not registered, not considered by most drivers. When I see other cyclists while driving I watch their head, their face, their arms, their lane position. I only look at her legs if there is a very compelling reason to do so ;)

Anyway its a moot point for me as advice as I commute on a fixed gear.

Al

[Helmet Head]

I suggest you and others might subliminally notice and take into account leg motion (and lack thereof) more than you may realize.

I guess you can find an intersection like this and ride around through it some number of times, alternating spinning and not spinning each time, until you have a reasonable number of incidents of encountering left-turners with each, and see if there is a difference in how others react.

[Roody]

Are you sure it's so predictable to ride down the center of the lane, looking back over your shoulder every 3-5 seconds? How do you know it's predictable? Is it ALWAYS predictable, under every condition? Has anybody ever thanked you for being so predictable while riding that way?
Did you really see somebody looking back every 3-5 sconds? I assume that they had a nervous system disorder or paranoid schizophrenia. What gives? This seems just plain silly!

What do you mean has anybody thanked me for being predictable? Have you been sniffing chain lube or something?

[Bekologist]

bicycling into an intersection full bore, with approaching, or standing left turners opposite, without a clear indication the car is yielding, would be unwise.

Signal you're plowing through, full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes by spinning a high cadence? AS long as you're in the center of the lane?


If a driver wants to turn in front of you, it doesn't matter if you've got the ROW, spinning wheels, center, side, weaving like a drunken idiot, coasting or whatever.

A lot of intersections and turners involve some negotiations with the drivers. Not the full speed ahead approach. I guess you've got to be there.

[kf5nd]

Being in the center (taking the lane) means "I'm here, directly in your travel path, you need to go around me if you want to go faster than me"

Pretty unambiguous to me! Try it sometime, you'll be amazed at the difference.


But being in the center means--what exactly?

[kf5nd]

They thank me by not honking at me. I haven't been honked at the last 18 months. I ride in bike-unfriendly Houston, Texas, 4000 miles per year. Mostly commuting.


Are you sure it's so predictable to ride down the center of the lane, looking back over your shoulder every 3-5 seconds? How do you know it's predictable? Is it ALWAYS predictable, under every condition? Has anybody ever thanked you for being so predictable while riding that way?

[Roody]

They thank me by not honking at me. I haven't been honked at the last 18 months. I ride in bike-unfriendly Houston, Texas, 4000 miles per year. Mostly commuting.
So true. I almost never get honked at, either.

Of course, I always stop those nice cagers and thank them for not honking at me. :D

[Helmet Head]

have you tried shifting to a lower gear as you approach an intersection? That increases your cadence and communciates a clue to the left-turner that you are NOT yielding the ROW to them. It's not a guarantee that they'll get the clue, but at least it's a clue. The second you slow or stop pedaling, you might as well put on your brakes too, because they're probably going to turn left in front of you.
...
Continuing to spin works for me, though I'm always ready to hit the brakes and/or execute a quick turn... just in case.


bicycling into an intersection full bore, with approaching, or standing left turners opposite, without a clear indication the car is yielding, would be unwise.

Signal you're plowing through, full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes by spinning a high cadence? AS long as you're in the center of the lane?


If a driver wants to turn in front of you, it doesn't matter if you've got the ROW, spinning wheels, center, side, weaving like a drunken idiot, coasting or whatever.

A lot of intersections and turners involve some negotiations with the drivers. Not the full speed ahead approach. I guess you've got to be there.
Bek,

I agree that bicycling into an intersection full bore, with approaching, or standing left turners opposite, without a clear indication the car is yielding, would be unwise. Do you think anyone suggested otherwise? Where? Who? If not, then why did you feel compelled to say this? (note: these are not rhetorical questions, in case you think they are).

I didn't say to change your speed at all. The point of lowering your gear and thus increasing your cadence is to give the appearance of "full steam ahead". But, in reality, you're looking for a clear indication that the left-turner is yielding, and prepared to hit the brakes and even quick turn if necessary. But the key point is that if you stop pedaling, or even slow down your pedaling, you are giving the opposite appearance: that you are yielding to them, which is what this technique is attempting to avoid.

[Roody]

. . . The point of lowering your gear and thus increasing your cadence is to give the appearance of "full steam ahead". But, in reality, you're looking for a clear indication that the left-turner is yielding, and prepared to hit the brakes and even quick turn if necessary. But the key point is that if you stop pedaling, or even slow down your pedaling, you are giving the opposite appearance: that you are yielding to them, which is what this technique is attempting to avoid.
I've heard this idea before, but I'm dubious. I tried it a few times and didn't notice much difference. Has anybody had actual success with this fast cadence method?

Overall, I worry little (probably less than I should) about what cagers think of me or the impression they have of cycling in general. I do try to communicate clearly when I want to do something "unpredictable" like change lanes or stop quickly for a blowout. Otherwise, the hell with what they think. Their opinion of me can't be much lower than my opinion of them. :)

[Treespeed]

I've heard this idea before, but I'm dubious. I tried it a few times and didn't notice much difference. Has anybody had actual success with this fast cadence method?

Overall, I worry little (probably less than I should) about what cagers think of me or the impression they have of cycling in general. I do try to communicate clearly when I want to do something "unpredictable" like change lanes or stop quickly for a blowout. Otherwise, the hell with what they think. Their opinion of me can't be much lower than my opinion of them. :)

I so agree. Unless I'm chaning lanes I really don't give motorists much thought. I know by my size, lighting, and position that they see me. I'm not going to worry too much about their perception of my cadence. Hey if it works for HH fine, but for me avoiding left hookers is just being aware and at a speed where I could stop if I had to. Most of the time if I'm questioning I point at them and make eye contact and I've had that stop some of them. But there's a lot to be said for dual pivot brakes and kool stop pads.

[Brian Ratliff]

I so agree. Unless I'm chaning lanes I really don't give motorists much thought. I know by my size, lighting, and position that they see me. I'm not going to worry too much about their perception of my cadence. Hey if it works for HH fine, but for me avoiding left hookers is just being aware and at a speed where I could stop if I had to. Most of the time if I'm questioning I point at them and make eye contact and I've had that stop some of them. But there's a lot to be said for dual pivot brakes and kool stop pads.

1+

I think it is easy to over think this "sending messages" stuff. In traffic, I really don't think much of my cadance. Expecially on my fixed gear. Certainly not to send any sort of message to drivers.

That said, I don't slow down or coast into intersections either.

[Helmet Head]

That said, I don't slow down or coast into intersections either.
That would be quite the challenge on a fixed gear!

Seriously, I think it's tough to measure the effectivity of the technique. But, for whatever reason, I don't get left-hooked much, and making sure I'm spinning as I approach and cross an intersection is an automatic habit of mine. What's the correlation? Is it a direct cause and effect? I really don't know for sure. Maybe it's indirect. Maybe the body language and facial expressions that follow from spinning are the effective direct messages.

I suppose it's possible to overthink just about anything, but in terms of cyclists "sending messages", I think cyclists underestimate how much their behavior communicates to motorists, and, therefore, how much they can control what gets communicated to motorists. The spinning at intersections thing is but one example of that.

[iamtim]

Oh come on guys, even a moron understands the connection between a cyclist's legs turning and intent to continue, and that legs not spinning implies slowing down (which can be easily interpreted as yielding). The whole point is that it isn't some cryptic message.

No, it's not a cryptic message. I think what noisebeam is trying to say is that drivers don't notice it, cryptic or not.

For example, I was riding with one of my employees to lunch; he was driving, and we were waiting on a cyclist to make a left turn. "Oh look," he said humorously, "one of *your* kind." I saw that the rider was coasting and I noticed he was even applying his brakes, so I told my employee to turn. He, too, was looking right at the cyclist AND DID NOT NOTICE THE COASTING OR APPLICATION OF BRAKES. He is certainly no moron, either -- he's one of the best ASP.net/SQL guys I've ever had the fortune to employ. I noticed because I check out bikes and riders and stuff like that.

I find it extremely humorous, HH, that on one hand you advocate a certain riding style (i.e. taking the lane through an intersection as opposed to being on the right) because drivers might not see you, yet on the other hand you expect they're going to pick up on cadence or braking. I mean, c'mon, if there's a chance they are going to miss you completely, there's certainly no way they're going to see you slowing down your cadence.

[chipcom]

Oh come on guys, even a moron understands the connection between a cyclist's legs turning and intent to continue, and that legs not spinning implies slowing down (which can be easily interpreted as yielding). The whole point is that it isn't some cryptic message.

This is not my idea. I've read it in numerous places, tried it, and found that it helped. YMMV. Now it's just habit for me. If you want to timidly approach intersections like this coasting, suit yourself. Continuing to spin works for me, though I'm always ready to hit the brakes and/or execute a quick turn... just in case.

ILTB has a point. Communication only works if both parties understand each other. Assuming a driver understands your clues is both dangerous and foolish, I don't care what book might say otherwise.

[chipcom]

I so agree. Unless I'm chaning lanes I really don't give motorists much thought. I know by my size, lighting, and position that they see me. I'm not going to worry too much about their perception of my cadence. Hey if it works for HH fine, but for me avoiding left hookers is just being aware and at a speed where I could stop if I had to. Most of the time if I'm questioning I point at them and make eye contact and I've had that stop some of them. But there's a lot to be said for dual pivot brakes and kool stop pads.

+2

[sbhikes]

When on my trike they don't notice cadence at all. In fact they believe I don't have the use of my legs at all even though there they are pedalling away like a buzz saw. It's really funny.

Anyway, I've never had left hooks on a two-wheeled bike.

[Bikepacker67]

if motorists are confused by your lane position, your visibility isn't going to save you.

This makes no sense.

If the driver SEES ME, I don't care if the idjit is confused.
I just want him to SEE ME.

When I take the lane, if there's a car behind me, a palm out hand signal is enough to make them understand that I'm ahead of them until I feel it's safe for them to pass me.

[Roody]

This makes no sense.

If the driver SEES ME, I don't care if the idjit is confused.
I just want him to SEE ME.

When I take the lane, if there's a car behind me, a palm out hand signal is enough to make them understand that I'm ahead of them until I feel it's safe for them to pass me.
Well there you have it. Now that you mention it, why does anybldy think that we are confusing drivers to any major extent? Give them a little credit. If they see somebody on a bike, they're not thinking, "I'm confused. Am I supposed to hit the pretty bike or am I supposed to let it go? I can't remember." Like bikepacker said, if they see you, you've got it made. Duh.

[sggoodri]

What is essential for safety is that other drivers not make and act upon incorrect predictions.

If another driver is unsure if the straight traveling cyclist in the center of the lane might move left, this only causes that driver to be more cautious.

But if a driver predicts that the right-edge cyclist will turn right, or will go straight, and that cyclist does something else, that's where a collision is more likely.

There's nothing wrong with riding far to the right if the situation makes it safe for other drivers to assume you will stay there for a while.

Making other drivers more certain about their predictions causes them to be more confident, and thus less cautious. There is one school of thought in traffic engineering that in some cases safety is served by making drivers somewhat less certain about what may happen ahead. This causes them to slow down and pay more attention. In other situations, convenience is improved by making it easier for drivers to make accurate predictions. Both strategies are different from creating situations that differ from drivers' predictions and result in mistakes. "Be predictable" improves convenience for other drivers, but "don't act contrary to what they can see and predict" improves safety for oneself.

[Helmet Head]

I find it extremely humorous, HH, that on one hand you advocate a certain riding style (i.e. taking the lane through an intersection as opposed to being on the right) because drivers might not see you, yet on the other hand you expect they're going to pick up on cadence or braking. I mean, c'mon, if there's a chance they are going to miss you completely, there's certainly no way they're going to see you slowing down your cadence.
I'm sorry, but I don't see the contradiction that you seem to be implying is there.

If I'm off to the right, they might not see me, because they're likely to not be looking off to the right (their left). That's why I use and advocate a centerish position in the rightmost lane that allows through traffic when going straight through any intersection. It's about riding where motorists are most likely to be looking. If you ride where they're less likely to be looking -- off to the right -- they're less likely to see you. Duh. This isn't rocket science.

And it's not about a cyclist being inherently less visible than, say, a car. Why don't you adjust your car driving to start crossing intersections from a position "as close as practicable" to the right side of the road (the position in which cyclists usually ride, and from which motorists usually turn right), and see how quickly your CAR will become invisible...

But even if they see me in my centerish position, I want to reduce the possibility that they might think that I'm slowing and/or yielding to allow them to turn left in front of me. I find that if I maintain a high cadence, I tend to not see any hesitation on their part, hesitation manifested in rolling forward, then stopping, perhaps, as if they are wondering if they can go or not. Adjusting slightly in the lane to the left while they are looking at me and while I'm pedaling away, also seems to help, perhaps because I am asserting my position there and making it very obvious that I am not yielding my ROW to them (whether they are thinking in those terms or not, that is the effect). Sometimes I will also stand up and pump the bike a bit.

There are many tricks in the bag, and high cadence is but one of them, but it's all about visibility, predictability and communication.

Finally, I'm not expecting anything. The whole time I'm always prepared for them to turn anyway. I'm just trying to reduce the possibility of that happening, and I find these techniques to work quite effectively, thank you very much.

[Treespeed]

HH.

I normally agree with you on most VC practices, but this high cadence thing is just silly.
I think you are way better off staying in an appropriate gear and as you said being prepared for the worst. I think shennanigans like spinning are nothing more than a distraction for drivers and most of all for the rider.

[Helmet Head]

Marcus... all I can tell you is that it seems to work for me. Perhaps I've been emphasizing high cadence too much.. the main thing is to not stop pedaling, which I believe can give the impression that you are yielding the right of way.

FWIW, here's what John S. Allen has to say about it in Bicycling Street Smarts:

You outbluff a driver by making it clear that you don't intend to stop. Continue to move forward - and keep pedaling, since your turning pedals are a clear signal to the driver. Meanwhile, figure out when you'll have to hit the brakes, in case the driver pulls out in front of you anyway.

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/safety/ped_bike/brochures/pdf/chapter9a.htm

(my emphasis)


I know I've seen this technique recommended in other places as well, and most people who actually try it - rather than simply speculate about it - seem to have positive results.

Serge

[noisebeam]

Marcus... all I can tell you is that it seems to work for me. Serge
You have no idea if it is your dynamic lane positioning, your high cadence or you beaming assertiveness that is working. Maybe the past few years you have asserted your right of way has been solely due to your high cadence and nothing to do with your lane position.

Al

[Helmet Head]

Al... Well, I haven't been taking written notes, but what I use is continually adjusted based on what works. In other words, I don't just mechanically do A, B, C at every situation and so have no idea which of A, B, C is having any effect, as you imply.

I also learn a lot by observing other cyclists (whether I'm cycling, driving or walking) and how motorists react to their behavior.

With all that in mind, I see it works for me. And, I'll add, I'm not the only one.
What I can't remember is whether Hurst talks about this in his book. Can you?

[peregrine]

As for the idea of the difference between visibility and being seen, it's interesting because I just got a trike. A trike is wider than a normal bike. I find I use the center a little more because I take up a lot of space. However, because I don't fit any recognizable pattern, being in the center doesn't appear to make me any more visible. In fact, being in the bike lane or on the right of a WOL makes me most visible because now motorists have another visual cue as to what I am and what I'm doing. When I'm in the center they often look right at me while turning left in front of me. Basically they don't know what I am so they don't know to let me take my turn. It's an interesting exercise in seeing things from another perspective. And as I get used to it, I don't really think it's tremendously dangerous as long as I use the tools at my disposal, including bike lanes, bike paths, and taking the lane where appropriate. Maybe a well-timed drool helps, too. hehe

My experience is that drivers turn right in front of me when I know they've seen me, because they've misjudged and underestimated my speed. Or they thought it's easier for me to stop/slow down if I have to because I'm slower than vehicles. That's happened to me a few times on busy streets when there's a window of no vehicles on the road and someone's decided it's their chance to sqeeze in and make their turn. Drivers like that cut me off no matter if I'm in the center of the lane or in the bike lane.

When I see someone waiting to make a turn, first I make sure they've seen me, then I look for a signal whether they'll wait for me to pass or will go for it. If they've seen me, I don't slow down but I'm always ready to hit the breaks.