Multiple blinkies? The Washington State Patrol replies to my question. [Archive] - Page 2

vrkelley

11-24-05, 11:16 AM

Questions like that are lots of fun, especially after a drinking all night in bar with your pals.
...some people take such silly questions as serious statements of a real problem; i.e. see the responses received from a few worryworts.

What appears silly in Iowa is fact in Seattle.

The point is that if a law is on the books it 'can' be enforced.

Agreed. Unlike other areas of the country, Seattle cops WILL stop cyclists for speeding/lights esp. on a bike trail. We're talking radar guns, ticket and it applies toward your driving record/insurance.

[Actual 1st hand street experience]
* Yes, I've been stopped for going thru a yellow light.
* Yes, radar traps are on some of our bike trails here.
* Yes, if there is an accident, your bike will be inspected and if you don't have the lights, reflector etc, you will be partially at fault.

You're an easy target in that hi-vis outfit ;)

vrkelley

11-24-05, 11:27 AM

I cannot seriously imagine a LA Police Officer, or a WA State Trooper for that matter pulling over a cyclist for being too visible at night.

Maybe it doesn't happen there... but try to imagine it from the cop's standpoint.

Cops in King County, WA do stop cyclists...If your lights block vis to other vehicles, send a wrong message or a similar setup caused an accident last week, you'll be stopped in WA.

Bekologist

11-24-05, 11:43 AM

In over 20 years of driving, the only points violation I've ever gotten on my driver's license was while piloting a bicycle on the streets of Seattle.

Daily Commute

11-24-05, 12:10 PM

What appears silly in Iowa is fact in Seattle.

* * * Unlike other areas of the country, Seattle cops WILL stop cyclists for speeding/lights esp. on a bike trail. We're talking radar guns, ticket and it applies toward your driving record/insurance.

[Actual 1st hand street experience]
* Yes, I've been stopped for going thru a yellow light.
* Yes, radar traps are on some of our bike trails here.
* Yes, if there is an accident, your bike will be inspected and if you don't have the lights, reflector etc, you will be partially at fault.

You're an easy target in that hi-vis outfit ;)

Maybe it doesn't happen there... but try to imagine it from the cop's standpoint.

Cops in King County, WA do stop cyclists...If your lights block vis to other vehicles, send a wrong message or a similar setup caused an accident last week, you'll be stopped in WA.
If you get in an accident and your lights aren't up to code (even if that means you have more than the permitted lighting), you risk more liability. And as vrkelley explained, some cops do stop cyclists for small violations.

I love the argument that a dumb law should stay on the books because some jurisdictions don't enforce it. Why not just make the law conform to reality? Lots of state and local governments have stupid bicycle laws. Let the people who care lobby to change the dumb laws. And if you think the laws don't matter, you have no reason to get the vapors--after all, you say it doesn't matter. So chill.

San Rensho

11-24-05, 12:13 PM

*
Just in case anyone finds this relevant or interesting... I live in the state of Washington in the United States, and I sent the Washington State Patrol this email to see what they'd say:

They sent me this reply:

In the event that someone hits me with their car, I don't want them to be let off on a technicality, so I guess I'll have to pick one blinkie to do my blinking and set the others steady. Or I can attach them to myself rather than to my bike, I guess.

I really don't care what the law is, I will do what I feel is safe and I urge you to do the same. I have an off white blinkie set on blink on the front of my bike and a red one on the back. I think blinking lights make you much more conspicuous and I would rather chance a ticket than chance getting hit by a cager.

I think most will agree that slavish adherence to traffic rules is sometimes more dangerous than violating the rule. For example, I think most (with the exception of some VC posters) would agree that, at a 4 way intersection with lights, if you are at the front of the line of cars and you have the red, and there are absolutely no other cars or pedestrians in the lanes that have the right of way, its safer for you to cross the intersection on the red. This gets you moving and stable, out of the way of cars, and where they can see you.

Traffic rules are guides to safety, they are not the word of god or some moral imperative. Take them for what they are, guides, not written in stone.

I-Like-To-Bike

11-24-05, 05:31 PM

Unlike other areas of the country, Seattle cops WILL stop cyclists for speeding/lights esp. on a bike trail. We're talking radar guns, ticket and it applies toward your driving record/insurance.

[Actual 1st hand street experience]
* Yes, I've been stopped for going thru a yellow light.
* Yes, radar traps are on some of our bike trails here.
* Yes, if there is an accident, your bike will be inspected and if you don't have the lights, reflector etc, you will be partially at fault.

But - the issue is multiple lights on the bicycle, not all those other moving violations or failure to have a minimum of safety equipment. Have the Seattle or Washington authorities EVER hassled ANYBODY over multiple lights or hinted at some stilted interpretation of the rules about multiple lights?

If the fear is that cops might bend/interpret the rules to hassle cyclists for pleasure, ignorance or just plain meanness, what makes anyone think an insignificant rewording of the multiple lights rule would improve the situation for cyclists?

Also the speculation about being assigned liability for having multiple lights is just that - speculation, and far-fetched at that.

Those who wish to tinker with vehicle codes for insignificant or illusionary benefits to cyclists may be opening up a pandora box of changes that may not be to cyclists' benefit.

KrisPistofferson

11-24-05, 05:52 PM

An important thing to ask oneself, just what are the police going to crackdown on you for? So they want to get really technical with you for your lights, but why? Because you piled into a busload of children and killed them all? Probably not. I'd rather pay their little ticket than have another idiot squeak past my handlebars, hit me, or complain to the court that I was invisible.

KrisPistofferson

11-24-05, 05:54 PM

Yeah, VC Man has tentacles composed of pure Rhetorium, and he also has a Pedantic Ray that's powerful enough to wither almost any opponent! :eek:

;)Oh, and this might be the greatest post ever in the history of A&S.
:beer:

John E

11-24-05, 06:48 PM

"RCW 46.61.780
Lamps and other equipment on bicycles.

(1) Every bicycle when in use during the hours of darkness as defined in RCW 46.37.020 shall be equipped with a lamp on the front which shall emit a white light visible from a distance of at least five hundred feet to the front and with a red reflector on the rear of a type approved by the state patrol which shall be visible from all distances up to six hundred feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful lower beams of head lamps on a motor vehicle. A lamp emitting a red light visible from a distance of five hundred feet to the rear may be used in addition to the red reflector. A light-emitting diode flashing taillight visible from a distance of five hundred feet to the rear may also be used in addition to the red reflector."

I see NOTHING in this text which prohibits ADDITIONAL lighting. If that were the writer's intent, it should have read, "NO MORE THAN ONE lamp ..." or "NO MORE THAN ONE light-emitting diode ... ." The intent of the law is simply that having a taillight does not excuse one from the rear reflector requirement, presumably to cover the event of a battery or lamp failure.

When I commuted at night in Los Angeles in the early 1970s, I had a generator headlight/taillight set, a French battery-powered lamp (remember those?) strapped to each arm, and one strapped to my left calf, as well as light colored or reflective clothing and helmet. I got nothing but compliments about my visibility to motorists.

HereNT

11-24-05, 07:13 PM

Here is my thought, I would rather deal with the cost of a ticket then the cost of medical bills. If a law can get you killed then its not much of a law----Right?

If I remember right, the original poster isn't so much concerned about tickets, but about lawyers and the actual intent of the law. If they had all of the extra lights and <b><i>still</i></b> got hit, and then ended up with tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills, it would REALLY suck to have the driver's insurance company say 'They were operating their bicycle in violation of the law, we're not paying anything!'

I'm all for the visibility, and I'm sure that most motorists pretty much can't miss me at night, but if they did, I'd like to know that I was covered on all bases.

Just saying...

vrkelley

11-24-05, 10:32 PM

But - the issue is multiple lights on the bicycle, not all those other moving violations or failure to have a minimum of safety equipment. Have the Seattle or Washington authorities EVER hassled ANYBODY over multiple lights or hinted at some stilted interpretation of the rules about multiple lights?

I have never been stopped for light issues. However, when I was stoppped/had an accident, compliance with lights were assessed both times. But then my lights are not extreme.

I-Like-To-Bike

11-25-05, 06:46 AM

I'm all for the visibility, and I'm sure that most motorists pretty much can't miss me at night, but if they did, I'd like to know that I was covered on all bases.

Just saying...
You are NEVER going to be covered on all bases if you are going to worry about somebody, somewhere dreaming up a wacky interpretation of a rule/law in order to SOMEHOW weasel out of their responsibilities. Just because somebody dreams up a BS interpretation of law doesn't mean it would get anywhere.

And it appears NO ONE is aware of this multiple light "prohibition" EVER being broached, except by a curious cyclist on the BF list.

If you wish to worry about this base (denied rights over goofy interpretations of law) being 100% covered, how exactly would you comply with ALL laws (real and imagined) and still be guaranteed freedom from some loopy interpretation by a disreputable or stupid lawyer, insurance company agent, law enforcement official or some other jack donkey with something stuck somewhere?

Bekologist

11-25-05, 06:53 AM

I wonder what the cops are going to do about the blinking christmas lights I just installed on my utility bike???? Sorry officer, I WAS impersonating Santa Claus...

Daily Commute

11-25-05, 02:44 PM

I remember reading something from a Colorado police department (Boulder, I think) in which they warned cyclists that cyclists could get cited for riding at night with a helmet-mounted light because the law required lights mounted directly to the bike.

atbman

11-25-05, 03:05 PM

Your Honour/Honor, while checking the defendant's visibility from the statutory 500 feet, I could see extremely clearly that he was carrying an illegal number of blinkies.

Fearing that he might be mistaken for a fire engine/ambulance/police car, I arrested him for impersonating a fireman/paramedic/police officer.

Has any cyclist, in any country in the world, ever been arrested for being too visible? If not, please, place an icebag on your fevered brows and worry about something of greater likelihood, like being abducted by aliens with a fetish for colonic irrigation

On that subject, did you know that the recent release of X files under your Freedom of Information Act, has revealed that, in the language of the grey men, the word for Leader is Redneck? This may explain much

mechBgon

11-25-05, 03:22 PM

Daily Commute

11-25-05, 03:48 PM

. . . Has any cyclist, in any country in the world, ever been arrested for being too visible? If not, please, place an icebag on your fevered brows and worry about something of greater likelihood, like being abducted by aliens with a fetish for colonic irrigation. . . .
The same could be said for the Colorado cops threatening to cite people for helmet mounted lights.

What I don't understand is why you would want to leave a stupid law on the books. The "'fevered' brows" seem to be on the people who have gotten their panties in a bunch about the idea that someone might want to fix a stupid law.

Bikepacker67

11-25-05, 03:50 PM

The "'fevered' brows" seem to be on the side of people who have gotten their panties in a bunch about the idea that someone might want to fix a stupid law.

ROFLMAO!

I swear, Advocacy is the REAL Politics/Religion.

I-Like-To-Bike

11-26-05, 09:37 AM

The same could be said for the Colorado cops threatening to cite people for helmet mounted lights.

What I don't understand is why you would want to leave a stupid law on the books.
When you find any reference for YOUR Colorado cop threat story other than your distant memory of "something" you think you read somewhere, be sure to let us know.

And a law does not become "stupid" JUST because someone (who may or may not be stupid) finds a way to interpret it in some wierd convoluted way in order to scare himself.

chipcom

11-26-05, 02:42 PM

When you find any reference for YOUR Colorado cop threat story other than your distant memory of "something" you think you read somewhere, be sure to let us know.

And a law does not become "stupid" JUST because someone (who may or may not be stupid) finds a way to interpret it in some wierd convoluted way in order to scare himself.

Yeah, like the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution, written so clearly and concisely that nobody would ever think of banning firearms from private ownership. Granted, I agree with your point about laws becoming 'stupid', but the words and how they are used ARE important. We would have no need for lawyers, judges and appellate processes, no need for lawmakers amending laws already on the books and no law would ever be changed or challenged if those wacky interpretations were meaningless.

Artkansas

11-27-05, 07:13 AM

Anyone have statistics on how many cyclists are killed by drunks attracted by their blinkies?

Maybe we should go back to...
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3561856/1039649179162_leglight.jpg

Brad M

11-27-05, 08:42 AM

I usually wrap myself in a 25' string of mini xmas lights, the ones with the blinking bulbs. I can ride for hours, even in the bike lane, and still not get hit when sporting my blinkies. I want to upgrade to a string of these new LED xmas lights, but I'm not sure if they make them with blinking bulbs. I wouldn't want too many solid lights on me, talk about danger zone!

slvoid

11-27-05, 08:45 AM

What the hell is that thing? [Moderator Removed]

Anyone have statistics on how many cyclists are killed by drunks attracted by their blinkies?

Maybe we should go back to...
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3561856/1039649179162_leglight.jpg

chipcom

11-27-05, 09:02 AM

What the hell is that thing? [Moderator Removed]

Come on now, that's just silly. Can't you see the lights? It's a Christmas [Moderator Removed],, dammit!

Bekologist

11-27-05, 09:08 AM

looks like some type of strap on appliance....

I'm riding the utility bike with blinking LED Christmas lights all this month, I'll let the forum know if I get harrassed by any Seattle cops with a scroogey side.

Artkansas

11-27-05, 11:01 AM

looks like some type of strap on appliance....

Yeah, strap it on your leg and pedal. The red glow going up and down shows motorists that you are a bicycle. No blinking needed. ;o)

The things they had to go through before LEDs.

slvoid

11-27-05, 01:03 PM

Come on now, that's just silly. Can't you see the lights? It's a Christmas [Moderator Removed], dammit!

I'm siding with Beko on this one... it's a strap on...

chipcom

11-27-05, 04:33 PM

I'm siding with Beko on this one... it's a strap on...

I'll conceed that myself, especially since the mods seem to insist!!

slvoid

11-27-05, 04:53 PM

That really ruined the joke, it's not like I said [Moderator Removed] or that looks like my [Moderator Removed] when my [Moderator Removed] [Moderator Removed] my [Moderator Removed] [Moderator Removed] with the [Moderator Removed] [Moderator Removed] [Moderator Removed].

I mean, they could've just as easily substituted [Moderator Removed] with "Phallic Reference".

chipcom

11-27-05, 05:12 PM

slvoid

11-27-05, 05:27 PM

It's ok.. between a dirty desk and aneurysm by lasagna.. you made the right choice, you made the right choice... If you remember the 5 second rule and you're quick, all is not lost.

I-Like-To-Bike

11-27-05, 07:02 PM

Anyone have statistics on how many cyclists are killed by drunks attracted by their blinkies?
I doubt it. Do you? I assume you are just repeating (or making up) more speculation or an urban rumor.

2manybikes

11-27-05, 07:55 PM

slvoid

11-27-05, 08:06 PM

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=flashing+lights+attract+drunk+drivers

alanbikehouston

11-27-05, 08:12 PM

That's why lawyers suck. They write laws with just enough incomprehensibility to make people have to discuss what they meant. I'll bet this is purposely done, so that two lawyers can spend thier client's money, jousting in court about the interpretation of that gibberish. Like, what consitutes a light; is it and/ or or instead of a blinker; are more lights than what it states in the law allowed; provide an expensive test to see if a light was really visible from x-number of feet, so on and so forth.

Where did you ever come up with the notion that lawyers "write" laws? Laws are written by corporate execs who "contribute" to politicians to have the law enacted. For example, the Department of Labor recently released a new "rule" that its inspectors must give advance notice before inspecting a Wal-Mart store. That rule was written by Wal-Mart execs, who are also among the biggest cash cows for the party currently in power in Washington D.C.

And, how does the federal government regulate Native American owned gambling casinos? The casinos "contributed" over sixty million dollars to a lobbying firm in Washington D.C. that passed on some of that new-found wealth to Congressman Tom DeLay. Delay is not a lawyer. Before becoming a very, very rich Congressman, he had a little rat and roach extermination business in Houston.

And, who elected Tom Delay? He was elected by lazy and half-witted folks who prefer to blame lawyers for all of the world's problems, instead of doing their homework on how laws actually get written and passed.

But, it will be lawyers who put DeLay behind bars. So, lawyers ARE good for something.

You want better laws regarding safety lights for bikes? Find a corporate sponsor. (Cateye??) Give generously to the chairman of the appropriate committee of your state's Senate. If you give REALLY generously, the new "blinky" light will be enacted word-for-word, just the way YOU chose to write it.

I-Like-To-Bike

11-27-05, 09:44 PM

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=flashing+lights+attract+drunk+drivers
Is this recounting of urban legends supposed to mean anything to anybody?

slvoid

11-27-05, 09:52 PM

I-Like-To-Bike

11-28-05, 05:30 AM

It's a URL. Universal Resource Locator, that's what stands for right?
Learn to read and judge for yourself. And if you find meaning in it, good, obviously you're still confused as to what it is.
I had read it sufficiently to judge that the list of URLs pointed to no serious facts or statistics, just a lot of gossip. Or is there a pearl of info buried somewhere in the list. That is why I wondered what was the point of posting a cryptic URL, with no comment, that refers to a list of 428,000 entries

Do you have a URL to a specific site that has real statistics, you know, the stuff more substantial than "I heard it on the grapevine"?

Perhaps I am confused, were you just kidding, posting a list of 428,000 entries; expecting someone else to find a relevant needle in the haystack? Was your post was just another entry in the on going BF contest to be king of the klass kutups? If so, ha, ha.

2manybikes

11-28-05, 06:45 AM

If you have a Illinois drivers licence then you can have as many blinkies as you like.

;)

I-Like-To-Bike

11-28-05, 06:57 AM

If you have a Illinois drivers licence then you can have as many blinkies as you like.

;)
But the Illinois drivers license still won't let you ride your bicycle on the Dan Ryan or the Lake Shore Drive in Chicago, even with multiple blinkies and an alpha dog attitude. Those big meanies!

chipcom

11-28-05, 07:08 AM

I had read it sufficiently to judge that the list of URLs pointed to no serious facts or statistics, just a lot of gossip. Or is there a pearl of info buried somewhere in the list. That is why I wondered what was the point of posting the cryptic URL reference to a list of 428,000 entries

Do you have a URL to a specific site that has real statistics, you know, the stuff more substantial than I heard it on the grapevine?

Perhaps I am confused, were you just kidding, posting a list of 428,000 entries; expecting someone else to find a relevant needle in the haystack? Was your post was just another entry in the on going BF contest to be king of the klass kutups?

Or perhaps he was giving you a starting point in your sacred quest to find urban rumors concerning how drunk drivers might be supposedly attracted to blinking lights?

slvoid

11-28-05, 07:12 AM

Perhaps I am confused, were you just kidding, posting a list of 428,000 entries; expecting someone else to find a relevant needle in the haystack? Was your post was just another entry in the on going BF contest to be king of the klass kutups? If so, ha, ha.

Well, coming from me, chances are it's a joke.
But I posted the link so people could go see for themselves just how serious this "moths to the flame" effect was for drunk drivers and blinkers rather than just take the opinion of 1 or 2 people for granted. God knows I'm too lazy to wade through half a million links for the Pearl.

I guess I'll be winning the Klass Kutups Kontest...

I-Like-To-Bike

11-28-05, 07:29 AM

I guess I'll be winning the Klass Kutups Kontest...
You win, hands down, but the competition isn't that challenging.

2manybikes

11-28-05, 07:39 AM

But the Illinois drivers license still won't let you ride your bicycle on the Dan Ryan or the Lake Shore Drive in Chicago, even with multiple blinkies and an alpha dog attitude. Those big meanies!

I hate it when that happens. You need to start ticketing cars.

Brad M

11-28-05, 03:24 PM

motorcycle helmet? bulletproof vest? roadie? Nice dream, but no.

Raiyn

11-29-05, 11:13 PM

Yeah, but since we're all obviously fake cyclists, your point is not relevant. I wonder if slvoid or any of the other NYC cyclists would want to comment about the nit picky things those real life law enforcement folks might do on a real street, unless of course they are all fakes too.
The guy's a troll. Don't feed him, put him on your ignore list
Here is my thought, I would rather deal with the cost of a ticket then the cost of medical bills. Same here. I don't think a competent judge would make you pay for being TOO visible
An important thing to ask oneself, just what are the police going to crackdown on you for? So they want to get really technical with you for your lights, but why? Because you piled into a bus load of children and killed them all? Probably not. I'd rather pay their little ticket than have another idiot squeak past my handlebars, hit me, or complain to the court that I was invisible.
Exactly
The Following has been PM'd to admin
[Moderator Removed]
I think a certain mod is taking things way too far. Last I checked the word that was censored ISN'T ON THE BANNED WORD LIST!
This hypersensitive morality (?) enforcement has got to stop and I mean right now. There isn't a 13 year old in the free world that doesn't know what a "phallic model" (Although they may choke on the term I gave) I knew what it was 20 years ago in elementary school for crying out loud.

I-Like-To-Bike

11-30-05, 03:33 AM

Quote:
[Moderator Removed]

I think a certain mod is taking things way too far. Last I checked the word that was censored ISN'T ON THE BANNED WORD LIST!
This hypersensitive morality (?) enforcement has got to stop and I mean right now.

"And I mean right now" Whaa? Is the moderator wannabe not happy with a real moderator and is now giving the moderator his/her marching orders? Does that mean Raiyn thinks he will determine the morarity codes as well as the correct formating for replies on this thread. Oh, I hope not.

Brian

11-30-05, 01:43 PM

Note to all members:

If you would like to dictate forum rules, you'll need to get your own server, register your own domain, and start your own forums. If you're going to post here, you need to adhere to Bikeforum.net rules.

The word in question is not on the banned list. There are plenty of other words that aren't as well, as need to look at everthing in context. Did anyone have chicken breast for dinner last night? Anyone have an uncle Dick? There is a very fine line as to what is acceptable, and what is not. If something falls into the grey area between the two, we'll probably give it the axe. Get over it. We haven't put every bit of AOLese on the banned list either. Does that mean it's ok? Nope.

Now, if you want to continue your discussion of blinkies, feel free to do so. If you want to make jokes about personal electronic devices, you'll need to find someplace else to do it.

Cheers,

Expatriate - Forum Moderator