Found? A Decent Quality Kids Bike at a Reasonable Price?

[Fibber]

I might be igniting a firestorm here, but here goes.... The other night I was cruising thru Target's electronics section, which happen to border their bicycle rack. Sitting partially blocking an aisle was a bicycle bearing the Schwinn brand name. The particular unit was an intermediate sized girls mountain bike (small womens frame - say age 8/9 and up) - model name was Ranger, with 24"x1.95" tires, priced at $139.99. And according to the Target web site, this is actually on sale now for around $110.

The Schwinn brand name, resurrected by Pacific Bicycle a few years ago, seems to market to two audiences. They have some midrange stuff that is sold thru LBS, and some lesser stuff that goes to the department stores. But unlike some of the real low tide stuff I saw recently at Wally World, this bike was competitive with some of the bigger players. I currently have both a Giant MTX 225 and a Trek Mt Track 220 for my very tall 9 year old daughter (long story as to why two....), so I have some basis for comparison. Current retail on Giant/Trek is around $239. Item for item, the components chosen by Schwinn pretty much match the Trek/Giant. Note that both my name brand bikes have steel frames also. Trek and Giant switched over to aluminum on the kids lines only about two years ago, after mine were produced.

Schwinn:
Steel frame - reasonably neat welding and finishing / paint
Aluminum wheels
Suntour 3 gear crankset
Shimano Tourney T40 (?) rear derailleur, 7 speed cassette, and front derailleur
SRAM 3.0 gripshifters
Tekro brakes (although the web site says ProMax)
Front fork suspension

And here is where it gets even more strange. It looks to be very similar (virtually the same??) to the Schwinn Frontier sold at BikeSource for around $200. Interestingly, the Frontier is listed on Schwinn's web site and sold at LBS, whereas the Ranger looks to be a special variant sold only at Target. It shows up on the Amazon and other sites, but they list the actual retailer as Target in the end. Yet they sport the same hardware, even the same paint.

So what do you loose when you buy from a dept store rather than a LBS? In this case, mainly service and assembly expertise. I went to e-opinions and a number of others to get a sense of what Ranger owners had to say. Most loved the bike, with the few complaints centered around gear shifting and brakes. Gee, sounds like adjustment issues dominate....

So to net it out, it is a bike that I would consider recommending to a friend that needed to save a bit. But I would only do so if they were capable of doing the assembly, adjustments, & maintenance that would be required when you don't have the services of a bike shop to fall back on.

Steve

[Siu Blue Wind]

I may be wrong here but I'll give it a shot. This is what I found out about WallyWorld. This may not be the same for Target.

WallyWorld does what is called "Predator Pricing". They are so big that they want a bike company to manufacture one similar to a popular bike that the company sells. The difference is that WW will only want to pay X amount for the bike and will buy a HUGE lot. They are so powerful with their purchasing that they will insist on that price or threaten to go to another company. To meet that pricing demand, the bike manufacturer will have to cut the cost somewhere, usually in the metals used in the frame (cheaper steel?), to cheaper metals in the components. They will often times pattern the WW bike after their popular model, but WW will name the bike and make it a WW exclusive. The bike is cheaper, thus the price advantage goes to the consumer, under the facade of said company's name.

From what I understand, Performance wanted Giant to do the same type of thing, but Giant didn't want to "cheapen" their bikes or integrity. So instead of messing up their reputation, they took a loss and didn't renew the contract with them. Kudos to Giant for quality and loyalty to the consumer.

I could be mistaken about this but that is what I was led to understand. Please correct me if I have my facts mixed up or wrong.

[Brian]

Have you taken a close look at kid's bikes? There's no place left to cut corners. In the case of Walmart, the best they can do is get a volume discount. I don't think you can get steel any cheaper than in a kid's bike, and I don't see how that would save anything. What's left? Bearings? Pedals? Cheaper tubes, tires or cranks?

As for Giant, they are the world's largest manufacturer of bicycles. I doubt they'll bow to anyone.

That's my 2 cents.

[Siu Blue Wind]

Maybe so. But those on this forum who complain about their WW bikes DO have some complaints about cranks, pedals and bearings having problems. I do know that with some companies, WW will insists that they build a headquarters in Bentonville, Arkansas so it is closer to WW headquarters. Easier to control.

I know that a lot of what I may say about WW is surprising but I spend quite a large part of my time researching and trying to fight what WW is doing to other corporations and also to their employees and the small time businesses. It's part of my job.

WW is involved in a very large amount of lawsuits, mainly from their own employees.
Please keep in mind that although this may be a sensitive subject for others, I don't mean to offend anybody here on the forums. I just believe very strongly in how I feel because of all that I have discovered. I have met people firsthand who have experienced WW's powerful hold. These are not just your everyday 16 year old clerks, either. These people were ex-managers, backstage security personnel, and those who were hired to implement "scare tactics" on the management and employees. These people came to us because they were feeling guilty of what they did (part of their job) and wanted to expose the abuses, with a guarantee of protection from the International Union.

[hubs]

My daughter has been riding that particular Schwinn model (Ranger from Target) for over a year. It has been great. It is pretty heavy and the suspension fork is very unnecessary and just adds weight if you ask me. But, the components work fine ... it has the promax brakes, low-end SRAM shifters & a Tourney derailleur. It needed a lot of re-assembly when I got it home. There was no grease on the pedal threads or seatpost. The brakes were adjusted so poorly that one wouldn't work. The rear deraileur even needed adjusting. Of course the tires needed air and the chain was bone dry. But, on a good note, the fork was installed the correct direction (not backwards like some). Basically I had to go over everything and grease and adjust. It's been a solid ride ... my daughter now loves going off-road as this bike is well suited to bombing across grass and dirt. Who knew? It's a little heavy and slow ... but I'm not sure I want my 8 year old speeding any faster. Let's graduate from sidewalk to road first. I have an older Raleigh road bike I just salvaged for her to try when she's about an inch taller.

The Schwinn Ranger is a good value at $100.

[Fibber]

I don't doubt what you say about cutting corners for a moment. In many ways, WW learned from Sears about effective retailing. Take a name brand appliance and substitute a smaller motor in order to offer it at a bargain price - at least that is what a relative who worked there reported......

The house brand of kids bikes at WW mostly have no-name derailleurs, shifters & brakes. Yet the Schwinn at Target looks to be pretty much like the counterpart at the bike store near me. They are starting to sell some Schwinn bikes at WW as well, but I have yet to take a good look at them to see how they stack up.

As to steel vs aluminum, Giant and Trek switched over their kids line maybe two years ago. The 2002 models I have in my garage are both steel. A bit heavier maybe, but robust. I looked at the replacement models, and they do seem to be a bit lighter. Yet I am not sold on the idea of aluminum tubing for a kids ride. Light alloys are great for you and me, but ever watch how the average child treats a bicycle? I have seen some with some interesting dents. I worry about the longterm viability, especially some of the narrow oval tubing - looks like it could be flattened and then fracture with time.

So you could consider the Target Schwinn to be like 'last years' Trek/Giant, or maybe simply more sensible for a bike that will be subject to abuse. Anyhow, my point in this was to offer an alternative for the many that just cannot afford to buy the best for their kids, but don't want to saddle them with real low end stuff from the largest mass retailers. For the low $100's, I don't think you would go too far wrong with this alternative. Again - you are on your own to make sure it is assembled and maintained.



Steve

[tacomee]

Believe it or not, the cheap friction shifters and derailers on the super cheap department store bikes work better than the cheap indexed ones.

The reason the bike shop bikes cost more is one thing...labor. The bike shop spends way more time putting bikes together. If you can spend a whole Saturday tearing down a bike and greasing and ajusting the hubs, bottom bracket and headset, shorting most of cable housing, ajusting the brakes and derailers and finishing the job by ajusting the spoke tention, dish and truing the wheels--- a bike from Target isn't a bad deal.

Of course if you have the the tools and skills to fix a $120 bike from Target, you're smart enough to go to local thift store and buy the same bike for $25 used and fix that one.

[Fibber]

If you can spend a whole Saturday tearing down a bike and greasing and ajusting the hubs, bottom bracket and headset, shorting most of cable housing, ajusting the brakes and derailers and finishing the job by ajusting the spoke tention, dish and truing the wheels--- a bike from Target isn't a bad deal.

Thought I covered that in my original post. But again for the record.... This is an alternative approach to acquiring a NEW, decent quality bicycle if, and only if you are competent and willing to trade some of your labor to save $100-$125. If this is not for you, then please visit your LBS and purchase a comparable bike at regular retail prices.

Steve

[alanbikehouston]

I also noticed a Schwinn bike for smaller girls at Target recently. It appeared to be well made with good parts and no obvious design flaws. It may have been the only bike in the store worth buying. Every other Schwinn bike on the rack had one or two components that were of clearly lower quality than the bike as a whole, and obvious assembly problems.

And, the Schwinn for small girls was a simple bike. That means most parents could repair the assembly errors that happen when an unsupervised minimum wage teen-ager "assembles" a bike for Target.

The other Target bikes were more complex. Dual hand brakes. Front suspension. Many with rear suspension. The combination of complex, but low quality parts and incompetent assembly makes a Target "dual suspension" bike an accident waiting to happen. It is tragic to see the once great "Schwinn" name on such garbage.

Target OUGHT to be selling one speed bikes with coaster brakes. The factory could put its money into high quality parts and bearings, instead of goofy stuff such as 21 speeds and dual suspension. Most kids, age four to ten could get good service from a well made one speed bike. That is what Schwinn built for kids from around 1890 to 1990, and generations of kids got many years of pleasure from riding simple, tough, reliable bikes.

But, gimmicks sell. Trash sells. Whoopee...21 speeds and dual suspension for just $79.95.

[Brian]

I love when customers look at the 7 or 8 kids bikes we have in our shop. [A real shop that also sells bikes over AU$5k] They ask me what the difference is between all the bikes. I hate to include the Giant MTX 125 in this, but I do tell them the only real difference is colour. No dual suspension bikes, but even the forks on the cheaps ones are for looks only, there's maybe 10mm of travel, when a grown adult leans on them. Kids should be on single speeds until they can ride a 24". That's my opinion. Why buy crap?

[roccobike]

I went the Wally World route when I bought #2 son a 24 inch bike. I purchased the cheapest bike they had ($54) It was OK. Buying that inbetween 24 inch bike is a real difficult decision because you know the child will be outgrowing the bike well before its' useful life. If I had it to do over again, I'd wait one more year, then buy a small frame mountain bike with 26 inch wheels from an LBS, the way I did with my first son. Four years later, he still rides the Trek 820 we bought.

[bluerider]

My experience with a cheap bike has been a really good one. I've had a Magna Glacier Point 26" Mountain Bike for several years now, though I've only been riding it seriously (daily) for 8 months or so. Of course, as has been said, Target didn't put a lot of time into setting it up, so I had some adjustments to make on the brakes and rear derailleur. It was a good experience for me, having to learn to make these adjustments. My only two complaints are that the gearing isn't low enough (only 2 chainrings up front, 40 tooth is the smallest one), and the wheels have come a little bit out of true, but not enough to be a problem. Most of the bikes I see in Target/Walmart nowadays have that third small chainring. This cheap bike has been a great ride, and a great opportunity to learn a little bit about bike maintenance. I think I paid $60 for it.

PS: I'm new here, hello all:)

[Fibber]

If you live in the flatlands, then a single speed bike is adequate. Even growing up on Long Island (NY), I eventually converted my single speed to a three speed Shimano hub when I got my hands on a cast off. It sure made trips up the "3 streams" greenbelt (Massapequa to Bethpage) far more enjoyable.

Living now in the Hudson Valley with our 10-15% grades on so many area roads, it can be total frustration even trying to take a casual ride with the kids. Gear bikes for your children is not a luxury but unfortunately becomes a basic necessity.

[majikstreet]

out of curiosity, is there anything wrong with performance? do they do the same things as say Target, Toys R Us, or Walmart would do? they are the only real bike shop in my area... though Sports Authority doesn't seem too bad...

[Brian]

Performance is not really an issue on a kid's bike. They have more energy than us, and just like we did, they can ride a single speed all day long. That said, one of the big stores was selling a bike where the front wheel would spontaneously come off.

[hubs]

out of curiosity, is there anything wrong with performance? do they do the same things as say Target, Toys R Us, or Walmart would do? they are the only real bike shop in my area... though Sports Authority doesn't seem too bad...

do you mean performance as in a Performance Bike Shop? They should be WAY BETTER than Target, TRU or Walmart .... I think the shops and mechanics vary quite a bit from place to place, but a Performance shop should give bike shop service, not X-bigmart type at all.

[Brian]

Methinks I misunderstood the question.

[tacomee]

Back to wallyworld bikes.....

I fixed a cheap Magna MTB with 26" wheels this last Sunday-- the rear hub was frozen and the barrel adjusters on the v-brakes were trashed. Standard stuff for low priced bikes. All and all, dept. store bikes aren't totally bad. They do break down a lot however.... because that's the way Target plans it! It's the Buy-ride-trash-repeat plan that suckers buyers who don't understand bikes to repeat over and over again. At 80 bucks a bike, buying 10 of them for 3 kids isn't really smart, but that's what millions of American families do. The same families that scoff at a $270 Trek or Fuji that will last the same 3 kids easy.

The real trouble is that most parents in the USA don't know squat about bikes. My father fixed and spay painted old 3 speeds for me and my brothers. The guy knew how to repack bearings and how to use a cone wrench, so it was no big deal. If you're the handy sort of dad, it's posible to get family bikes for cheap or free-- just pick up broken WallyWorld bikes and fix them.

If you don't know bike repair.... the only choice is your local bike shop. You're not spending $300 on a bike, you're buying service. Otherwise, you're just going to end up with a garage full of broken WallyWorld bikes that you'll give to the Mexican family down the street, because Grampa Luco can fix them.

[majikstreet]

Yes, I meant Performance Bike Shop... sorry for the misunderstanding... Thanks for letting me know there's nothing wrong. :)

[tryinorganic]

What you loose from buying any bike at a discounter that you might be able to get at an LBS is professional assembly (I have seen so many come in with the fork on backwards and when I worked at Target I know the guy who assembled bikes didn't know anything about them nor did he even own one) and the aftercare as it were. You're not going to get any help if you have an issue with the bike you bought from Target. you'll end up having to take it to your LBS to get it serviced for $$. If you buy from your LBS in the first place, you'll eliminate a bunch of issues later, have a safer bike to start with, and likely you'll get some sort of service to get you started. Some of our local shops offer a couple years of adjustments to make sure you keep shifting and braking well while the initial cable stretch happens. That said, if you know bikes and have tools and can do all that yourself as well as rebuild the bike before your kid rides it to make sure it's safe, then a discounter bike is a great deal. And I do have to agree with the poster that said steel is likely a better metal for a kids bike. I have seen how many of them treat bikes, and if you're going to invest, you want it to last.