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Hi Everyone,
On a 4-lane street with a right turn lane, when I come up to a red light and there is a car in front of me in the 2nd lane, should I stay behind that car or should I pull up next to that car on the right but staying in the same lane? My son says I should do the latter. Which is correct?
Thanks,
Michele
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I always line up behind cars and stay fully in the thru lane. I never go up next to cars, i.e. squeeze between right turn lane and straight lane or cross over lane marker into right turn lane.
The only reason you may want to ride up next to cars is if it is the only way you will make the green light. Even if you do this, don't cross into the right turn lane.
Otherwise it means cars don't have to pass you again and cars coming up behind are more likely to see you.
Al
The former. Why put yourself in a situation where you could get wedged? Take the lane behind the car in front.
John: "Say, whatcha got in that can?"
Bubba: "I don't know. Let's open it and find out."
The answers to this are going to vary depending on who answers and how militant they are to the VC code of conduct.
Personally, I would slip between the two lanes to the front. Then move to the right quickly after green, as I am sure that the waiting car will want to gun it past me.
I've done it both ways and have settled on this:
If the speed of the road is greater than 40 MPH, then filter to the front. Higher speed roadways usually have wider lanes and can accomodate a cyclist on the white line between the right turn lane and the straight lane.
If the speed of the road is less than 40 MPH and there is less than a "comfortable" (i.e., you can keep up with the speed of the cars accelerating, as you pass through the intersection) number of cars in front of you, get in line with the cars, otherwise filter forward.
Depending on the intersection and how probable it is someone will be turning right. i'll filter forward to the left side of the right lane, even someways into the crosswalk. This way cars can turn right and I won't get wedged. I always anticipate the light turning green by 1/2 a second or so, so I can get a jump on traffic behind me and get into the lane I need before they do. I'm not a big fan of sitting behind traffic at red lights because getting a face full of exhaust ain't healthy. Staying next to the curb blocks right turning traffic to a degree which I find pushes drivers to do stupid/aggressive
sh!t. Finally, I think the key is to always be assertive and not passive, give a motorist an inch and they'll run you over.
I'm not a big fan of sitting behind traffic at red lights because getting a face full of exhaust ain't healthy. .
I never understood the exhaust reasoning. I find I get less exhaust lining up behind cars than being to the side of them - stay back 6ft or so. Worst exhaust for me is if I am off to the right side and cars are accerating to my left.
Al
I make my decision on the details. Just one car why not stay behind. Several then perhaps share the lane. But the biggest deciding factor is where do you plan on being once you are across the intersection? If you plan on being on the right then split the lane and get to the right. BUT if you plan on taking the lane then wait behind the cars. On that think how you would feel as a driver if someone else passed you on the right on a bike and then took the lane where you get stuck behind them. (Then imagine that they manage to finally pass you only to have it happen again at teh next light. Any guesses how careful they might be passing you after the 3rd or 4th repetition?)
Its really a personal decision, but I recommend that if you havent' tried lining up with traffic, do it for a while to see what its like. You may not switch back!
I could really care less what other cyclists do, except when slower cyclists, who know they are slower cause I recently passed them, pass me on my right when I am lined up and it is clear that by lining up the green light can be made. It can be frustrating after finally getting a gap in traffic to pass a slower cyclist after behing stuck behind them, then having them squeeze by you on the right.
Al
It's very situational. Keith99 has the gist of it that it depends on what you're going to do when the light turns. My rule of thumb is I wait in line unless I'm going to run the light -- I won't filter forward to wait at the front of the line. I don't like to get passed until I'm clear of the intersection and traffic has straightened itself out, so if I'm waiting in line I'll wait in the center of the lane.
I never understood the exhaust reasoning. I find I get less exhaust lining up behind cars than being to the side of them - stay back 6ft or so. Worst exhaust for me is if I am off to the right side and cars are accerating to my left.
Al
While I am one for sitting right behind the cars, I too notice the exhaust issue... I don't get "exhausted" by sitting to the right of the cars in BL (right only lanes with BL to the left).
I do get "exhausted" by most American vehicles... which have the pipe straight back. Some foreign vehicles have the exhaust pipe bent so the exhaust goes to one side or the other... these are the easiest to handle.
The exhaust issue is worst just as the vehicles start right up from a stop... and you ride right through it... even if you wait back 6 feet, just getting started from a stop, you gulp air and the car in front of you belches pollution... frankly it sucks.
I even made note of it in this "stream of consciousness" commute blog... (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=1175192&postcount=8386)
Sorry, but exhaust just sucks.
Wait… long line of cars… Oh exhaust gas… how fun… why the heck do “all” cars have the exhaust at the right rear… Ug. Hey VC guys, waiting behind cars, sucks… Green, and go.
(snipped)
Wow, BMWs have the exhaust on the left… welllll thank you. Ooooo, Alumni of UCSD… blond too… hmmm.
Sorry, but exhaust just sucks.
Agreed. Its just that I haven't found any position to be notably better than another (wind and car draft have a big effect too) so I don't make general decisions about positioning based on exhaust, unless three is specfiic situation such as a car obviously spewing more than normal, then I stay far away.
Sometimes exhaust keeps one warm on cold mornings ;)
Al
It's tempting to make your decision in such a decision with blinders on, looking only at the details, and missing the bigger picture. But, as others have pointed out, either approach can be done with reasonable safety. So far as I know, the law is also mute on the issue, except that if you do choose to go alongside the stopped car, technically, you must be fully within the lane that serves your destination (i.e., not straddling the right only lane).
Now, to the larger issue... which is, how does your lane position affect others? What does your lane position, in each case, say to others, if anything?
Anyone care to to share how each of the two approaches,
1) taking your place in line behind the first car, and
2) stopping alongside to the right of the first car
may affect what others see and think of you?
Is how they see and think of us depending on which of the two approaches we take worth taking into account in making our decision?
It's tempting to make your decision in such a decision with blinders on, looking only at the details, and missing the bigger picture. But, as others have pointed out, either approach can be done with reasonable safety. So far as I know, the law is also mute on the issue, except that if you do choose to go alongside the stopped car, technically, you must be fully within the lane that serves your destination (i.e., not straddling the right only lane).
Now, to the larger issue... which is, how does your lane position affect others? What does your lane position, in each case, say to others, if anything?
Anyone care to to share how each of the two approaches,
1) taking your place in line behind the first car, and
2) stopping alongside to the right of the first car
may affect what others see and think of you?
Is how they see and think of us depending on which of the two approaches we take worth taking into account in making our decision?
Are you suggesting that this is an ethical issue as opposed to a practical safety issue?
One thing I know is that if you wait in line, you will be one of the few cyclists who do so. And you are probably waiting because you think it is "right" to wait, ethically speaking, rather than for any practical reason. Now the question is, does it make sense to do the "right" thing when almost everybody else is doing the expedient thing?
A common analogy is a park with a "Keep Off the Grass" sign. The obvious intent of the sign is to preserve the beautiful lawn. But if everybody else is trampling the grass, for what purpose should I stay on the path?
I do both, depending on the situation. If I'm near the front and most traffic is going straight, I move to the right. They're going to be passing me within a few seconds anyway, might as well let them by.
If I'm farther back, I get in line. I also have a light on my route where most traffic takes a 45 degree right turn at the light. At that one I have to be careful to avoid a right hook; I'll get in line starting about 10 car lengths back from the light, and if I see a right turn signal behind me, I'll move extreme left in the lane, to keep them from trying to edge around me. They then squeeze by on the right, but that's OK with me, far better than a right hook.
Are you suggesting that this is an ethical issue as opposed to a practical safety issue?
No, but I think it is a political issue with practical consequences to how cyclists are treated by others.
In particular, are we treated as equal users of the roadway? Or are we treated as second-class users, who have rights, as long as we do not interfere with the rights of the primary users, the motorists?
What I'm saying is that we have much more control over how we are treated, as equal or as second class, then most cyclists seem to realize. Further, I think how we treat a situation such as the one that is the topic of this thread is an excellent example of how we can affect how we are seen and then treated by others.
No, but I think it is a political issue with practical consequences to how cyclists are treated by others.
In particular, are we treated as equal users of the roadway? Or are we treated as second-class users, who have rights, as long as we do not interfere with the rights of the primary users, the motorists?
What I'm saying is that we have much more control over how we are treated, as equal or as second class, then most cyclists seem to realize. Further, I think how we treat a situation such as the one that is the topic of this thread is an excellent example of how we can affect how we are seen and then treated by others.So you think waiting is the right thing to do. But how does it help if I wait, but nobody else on a bike does? And believe me, around here I am the only one who waits in line at a red light. But then, I care more about how people perceive me, not how they perceive the class of cyclists.
If you act like you have the same rights and responsibilities as drivers of motor vehicles, then you are likely to have others respect those same rights.
If you act like you don't have the same rights and responsibilities, then you are likely to be treated accordingly.
Taking your place in line behind the one car that is already stopped, in the center of the lane, is a wonderful opportunity to make an important political statement with practical consequences. To everyone who see you do it, you are saying, It is my right to be here.. Can seeing just one cyclist do this once make a difference? Probably not. But it probably wouldn't take seeing hundreds or even tens either. If a driver runs into 2 or 3 cyclists asserting our rights like that within a relatively short period, I have to believe it will make an impact. A subtle but critical statement about the rights of cyclists, and their equal responsibilities, on the road.
Why pass up such a wonderful opportunity by stopping alongside a car at an intersection?
Be bold. Stand up for the rights of all cyclists. Stop behind the car, in the center of the lane.
On a 4-lane street with a right turn lane, when I come up to a red light and there is a car in front of me in the 2nd lane, should I stay behind that car or should I pull up next to that car on the right but staying in the same lane? My son says I should do the latter. Which is correct?
The way I look at it is staying in line is always correct, but filtering forward on the right may or may not be incorrect depending on the situation.
An example of when I might filter forward on the right would be when the lane you're in is wide and it is wide on the other side of the intersection. An example when I would not filter forward is when the lane on the other side of the intersection is narrow.
Also, if I filter forward on the right, I don't take a position right next to the lead car - that might not make me visible. I'll often take a position a little further back, still on the right, but between the first and second cars.
So you think waiting is the right thing to do. But how does it help if I wait, but nobody else on a bike does? And believe me, around here I am the only one who waits in line at a red light. But then, I care more about how people perceive me, not how they perceive the class of cyclists.
Yes, that's a good point. Beyond making the point for all cyclists, I think just you doing it can have a practical impact on how others treat you, in particular the next guy who shows up at the intersection.
If you're stopped alongside the first car, when the second car arrives, he stops behind the first car. How's he going to treat you? Like you're not even there. Like you're in some other irrelevant-to-him lane. He ignores you. A minute later he won't even remember there was a cyclist at that intersection.
Now imagine you stop in the center of the lane behind the first car. Now the second car stops behind you. He must acknowledge you. And he must treat you just like he would any legitimate driver, perhaps like a motorcyclist.
I find I get much more respect and space in the latter case than in the former. That's a practical difference that has an effect on me immediately.
Are you suggesting that this is an ethical issue as opposed to a practical safety issue?
One thing I know is that if you wait in line, you will be one of the few cyclists who do so. And you are probably waiting because you think it is "right" to wait, ethically speaking, rather than for any practical reason. Now the question is, does it make sense to do the "right" thing when almost everybody else is doing the expedient thing?
A common analogy is a park with a "Keep Off the Grass" sign. The obvious intent of the sign is to preserve the beautiful lawn. But if everybody else is trampling the grass, for what purpose should I stay on the path?
I guess I am one of those few...I prefer to wait in line. Safety issues notwithstanding, to me, jumping your place in line in or on any vehicle is just plain rude.
I don't mind making a stand when I need to. But if, for example, the rightmost through lane approaching the intersection is shareable and the lane on the other side of the intersection is shareable, then why should I get in line with the motorists just for the sake of making a stand? Don't forget, there's no right hook issues here, because it has already been established that there's a right turn only lane.
Yes, that's a good point. Beyond making the point for all cyclists, I think just you doing it can have a practical impact on how others treat you, in particular the next guy who shows up at the intersection.
If you're stopped alongside the first car, when the second car arrives, he stops behind the first car. How's he going to treat you? Like you're not even there. Like you're in some other irrelevant-to-him lane. He ignores you. A minute later he won't even remember there was a cyclist at that intersection.
Now imagine you stop in the center of the lane behind the first car. Now the second car stops behind you. He must acknowledge you. And he must treat you just like he would any legitimate driver, perhaps like a motorcyclist.
I find I get much more respect and space in the latter case than in the former. That's a practical difference that has an effect on me immediately. I do agree with this, based on my own experience. This is a practical benefit to me of waiting my turn. Additionally, the car behind me seems to screen me from other cagers; he's kind of like my big brother who has my back.
I don't mind making a stand when I need to. But if, for example, the rightmost through lane approaching the intersection is shareable and the lane on the other side of the intersection is shareable, then why should I get in line with the motorists just for the sake of making a stand? Don't forget, there's no right hook issues here, because it has already been established that there's a right turn only lane.
Why should you? Because you have no reason not to!
Why NOT get in line behind the one motorist (remember the OP) who is already there in order to claim, proclaim, and assert our right to do so? Why NOT take the opportunity to demonstrate to others a cyclist obviously operating in accordance with the same vehicular rules of the road? Why NOT take the opportunity to explicitly counter the all too many examples of cyclists flouting the rules of the road? (not to say that stopping alongside is flouting, but that doing so does not obviously counter the flouting as does stopping behind in the center of the lane)
If you act like you have the same rights and responsibilities as drivers of motor vehicles, then you are likely to have others respect those same rights.
If you act like you don't have the same rights and responsibilities, then you are likely to be treated accordingly.
Taking your place in line behind the one car that is already stopped, in the center of the lane, is a wonderful opportunity to make an important political statement with practical consequences. To everyone who see you do it, you are saying, It is my right to be here.. Can seeing just one cyclist do this once make a difference? Probably not. But it probably wouldn't take seeing hundreds or even tens either. If a driver runs into 2 or 3 cyclists asserting our rights like that within a relatively short period, I have to believe it will make an impact. A subtle but critical statement about the rights of cyclists, and their equal responsibilities, on the road.
Why pass up such a wonderful opportunity by stopping alongside a car at an intersection?
Be bold. Stand up for the rights of all cyclists. Stop behind the car, in the center of the lane.
Sorry, but when other vehicles are approaching the intersection at 40-55 MPH, I prefer NOT to be in line behind the first (or more) vehicles. I'm bold, but making a point and staying alive are two different things.
For me it just depends on whether there is a right turn lane or not. If there is a right turn lane I will move to the front and sit between the lanes. If there is no right turn lane or if I am turning right I always take the lane and stay in line. I find people making right turns always cut the corner close and will leave no room for a bike.
I don't mind making a stand when I need to. But if, for example, the rightmost through lane approaching the intersection is shareable and the lane on the other side of the intersection is shareable, then why should I get in line with the motorists just for the sake of making a stand? Don't forget, there's no right hook issues here, because it has already been established that there's a right turn only lane.
Why should you? Because you have no reason not to!
Why NOT get in line behind the one motorist (remember the OP) who is already there in order to claim, proclaim, and assert our right to do so? Why NOT take the opportunity to demonstrate to others a cyclist obviously operating in accordance with the same vehicular rules of the road? Why NOT take the opportunity to explicitly counter the all too many examples of cyclists flouting the rules of the road? (not to say that stopping alongside is flouting, but that doing so does not obviously counter the flouting as does stopping behind in the center of the lane)
In the example I gave (which isn't necessarily inconsistent with the OP's situation), I'm sure you'd agree that either getting in line or filtering forward on the right would be both safe and legal. So in this case I choose filtering forward on the right as it results in less delay to me while not inconveniencing motorists. I don't understand why I need to get in line for the sole purpose of making a statement. For one thing, aren't I already making a statement by riding legally and safely by staying out of the right turn only lane, for example?
Sorry, but when other vehicles are approaching the intersection at 40-55 MPH, I prefer NOT to be in line behind the first (or more) vehicles. I'm bold, but making a point and staying alive are two different things.If you are stopped behind anothe car at the red light, how will traffic endanger you? How will filtering to the light protect you? will the cars coming at 40-55 mph not slow down and stop for the red light, regardless of where you are stopped? Sorry, I don't understand your point.
Brian, I feel I already answered your questions.
I can only add that whatever delay you might suffer as a result of stopping behind a car instead of alongside is likely to be elminated by the draft you'll get from following the car as you follow it through the intersection.
Staying out of the right turn lane is something of a statement, sure, but choosing a sharing position alongside a STOPPED vehicle (thus it's not faster, at that moment anyway), is arguably a submissive position to take on the road, for no reason. Now, if you're traveling slower than other traffic, it makes sense to defer to faster traffic if it's safe and reasonable to do so. But to take a submissive position when everyone is stopped is making a statement that I think is best to avoid when possible.
I can only add that whatever delay you might suffer as a result of stopping behind a car instead of alongside is likely to be elminated by the draft you'll get from following the car as you follow it through the intersection.
One car, you're probably right. Multiple cars, different story.
Staying out of the right turn lane is something of a statement, sure, but choosing a sharing position alongside a STOPPED vehicle (thus it's not faster, at that moment anyway), is arguably a submissive position to take on the road, for no reason. Now, if you're traveling slower than other traffic, it makes sense to defer to faster traffic if it's safe and reasonable to do so. But to take a submissive position when everyone is stopped is making a statement that I think is best to avoid when possible.
If we're talking about a narrow through lane where the cyclist takes a position in the left hand of the right turn only lane in order to be next to the stopped motorist, I might agree that the cyclist is being submissive.
But in a wide lane, I think your notion that taking a sharing position alongside a stopped vehicle is somehow submissive is ridiculous. I presume your line of reasoning is this: the cyclist is not going any slower than the motorist in this situation - i.e., they're both going zero miles per hour - so the cyclist should take the lane, and anything else would be submissive. Certainly, in a situation where the cyclist and motorist are both moving about 25 mph (for example) in a wide lane, I will usually take the lane, because otherwise my speed and the speed of the other traffic may change just enough to put me in a motorist's blind spot for an extended period of time. But stopped at a light in a wide straight through lane with a dedicated right turn pocket, the situation is much more static and less dynamic, so I have no problem stopping next to the motorist in front. Even so, I never really stop next to that motorist - I instead stop to the right between the first and second car, which is helpful in the off chance that the motorist in front changes his mind when the light turns green and makes a right turn.
instead stop to the right between the first and second car, which is helpful in the off chance that the motorist in front changes his mind when the light turns green and makes a right turn.
I am not going to argue whether doing this is or is not submissive - that's a subjective judgment. And that's my point. That's why I said it's arguably a submissive position (even though I'm not going to argue it!). The point is that some people will see it as a submissive position. For me, in the OP situation (only one car stopped), it's not worth it to stop alongside.
Now, if there are 15 cars, and especially if I'm likely to miss the light, sure, I'll take the hit for appearing submissive in order to gain some time, as long as it's safe, legal and reasonable to filter forward and stop to the right of the rear of the 1st car (or thereabouts).
But, doing so when there are 15 cars is also more likely to be seen as being done to get an advantage rather than out of a feeling of submissiveness relative to other traffic.
But in the case of this thread - only one car stopped - I think the stopping alongside behavior is much more likely to be seen as submissive, and rightfully so (oops, now I am arguing it).
My main point remains: that how we appear to others - submissive or assertive about our rights - is an important factor to consider when making decisions like where to positions ourselves at a red light.
Have a great turkey day, everybody. I'm outta here.
Sorry, but when other vehicles are approaching the intersection at 40-55 MPH, I prefer NOT to be in line behind the first (or more) vehicles. I'm bold, but making a point and staying alive are two different things.
Exactly my reasoning as well. When waiting at an intersection in a car and someone approaches from the back too fast and rear ends you (a common accident), you get whiplash. If you're on a bike and the same thing happens, you're dead. I therefore try to reduce this exposure as much as possible by filtering forward and creating a buffer between me and approaching traffic and then getting a firm jump when the light goes green. Hey, I agree it can be percieved as rude by the cagers, but I long ago realized I can smile and wave at them or offer to wipe their butt till the cows came home and they'd still right hook me, pass too close, lay on the horn, etc...
I make a decision based on line length. If there are only a couple cars, I get in line. If the line is a quarter mile long, I run up the side and get behind the first or second car in line.
Exactly my reasoning as well. When waiting at an intersection in a car and someone approaches from the back too fast and rear ends you (a common accident), you get whiplash. If you're on a bike and the same thing happens, you're dead. I therefore try to reduce this exposure as much as possible by filtering forward and creating a buffer between me and approaching traffic and then getting a firm jump when the light goes green. Hey, I agree it can be percieved as rude by the cagers, but I long ago realized I can smile and wave at them or offer to wipe their butt till the cows came home and they'd still right hook me, pass too close, lay on the horn, etc...
Motorcyclists are hardly any, if any, less vulnerable to this type of collision than are bicyclists. Do you think it's unreasonably unsafe for motorcyclists to stop in line in traffic? If not for motorcyclists, then why for bicyclists?
I don't think someone approaching from the back too fast and rear ends you is a common accident, though rear-enders are fairly common. But, my understanding is that the cause of rear enders is usually someone following someone else who suddenly stops for no apparent reason (it may be a good reason, just not apparent to the one following!).
I'm not saying that simply slamming into the back of a stopped car never happens, but, when it does, it's usually caused by poor judgement as a result of a distraction a motorist would probably not allow in the first place if the last in line in front of him is a motorcyclist or bicyclist. Has anyone ever heard of a motorcyclist being rear-ended in a situation like this? Again, i'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just trying to put the unlikelihood in perspective. Irrational estimations of relative actual dangers can lead to inappropriately submissive behavior...
If you are accustomed to taking your place in line as a cyclist, then you also know about the extra space that cagers give us (sometimes 2-3 car lengths) when they stop behind us. It's pretty cool.
I make a decision based on line length. If there are only a couple cars, I get in line. If the line is a quarter mile long, I run up the side and get behind the first or second car in line.
Me too. I gave my reasons. What are yours?
My main point remains: that how we appear to others - submissive or assertive about our rights - is an important factor to consider when making decisions like where to positions ourselves at a red light.
Have a great turkey day, everybody. I'm outta here.
When I make decisions on how to position myself on the roadway, my criteria are these in the following order: 1) is it safe for me, 2) is it legal, and 3) can I be cooperative with other roadway users without violating (1) and (2).
Outside of that, I can't control or speculate how motorists are going to perceive my actions. For example, if I'm taking the lane, some motorists might see me as asserting my rights, others might see me as a pompous road-hoggin @$$, and others might see me as a crazed lunatic. If I instead filter forward on the right, some might perceive me as being courteous, others might see me as being opportunistic, and others might see me as submissive.
So rather than second-guess what motorists might think of me, I do my best to cycle safely, legally, and cooperatively. If I need to be assertive because it will make me safer in a given situation, I will do so. But if it's a question of being assertive just so I might not appear submissive in some motorists' eyes, then I probably won't bother.
I'm signing off too ... have a good Thxgiving.
[QUOTE=
I'm not saying that simply slamming into the back of a stopped car never happens, but, when it does, it's usually caused by poor judgement as a result of a distraction a motorist would probably not allow in the first place if the last in line in front of him is a motorcyclist or bicyclist. Has anyone ever heard of a motorcyclist being rear-ended in a situation like this? Again, i'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just trying to put the unlikelihood in perspective. Irrational estimations of relative actual dangers can lead to inappropriately submissive behavior...
QUOTE]
I'm totally lost. how is filtering between two lines of cars to the front submissive? If anything its aggressive. Riding completely like a car kind've negates why I commute on my bike, which is in part because in heavy city traffic, its way faster. But only if you take advantage of the small size and agility that riding a bike allows. If I wait behind traffic at lights, not only am I more vulnerable to being rear ended, I'm now just a cager, but two tonnes lighter and without a cup holder :)
I'm totally lost. how is filtering between two lines of cars to the front submissive?
Read the OP and any 3 of my posts. We're not talking about filtering between two lines of cars. We're talking about stopping alongside or behind the one car that is stopped.
Now, start cooking already. That's where I'm finally headed.
If you're stopped alongside the first car, when the second car arrives, he stops behind the first car. How's he going to treat you? Like you're not even there. Like you're in some other irrelevant-to-him lane. He ignores you. A minute later he won't even remember there was a cyclist at that intersection.
Now imagine you stop in the center of the lane behind the first car. Now the second car stops behind you. He must acknowledge you. And he must treat you just like he would any legitimate driver, perhaps like a motorcyclist.
My son's reasoning, when we were discussing this, was that if I stopped behind the first car that the next car would not see me and that somehow I would be safer if I pulled up to the right of the first car.
Michele
Your son's reasoning is logical, for someone who has never stopped in the center of the lane behind the last car and experienced how you well you are treated as a result of doing so.
Now let's get those turkeys in the oven!
My son's reasoning, when we were discussing this, was that if I stopped behind the first car that the next car would not see me and that somehow I would be safer if I pulled up to the right of the first car.
The next motorist sees the red traffic light and expects stopped traffic in front of him as he slows down. Being right behind the first motorist puts you right in the field of vision of the next motorist, so he slows down and comes to a complete stop behind me.
My son's reasoning, when we were discussing this, was that if I stopped behind the first car that the next car would not see me and that somehow I would be safer if I pulled up to the right of the first car.
Michele
So his reasoning is that if you are behind the car, in plain sight the next car will not see you. But if you pull to the right of the car and now have the first car blocking the view of the driver in the second car that somehow the driver of the second car will see you? Not to mention the third of 4th cars. While they would not see you in either case, in the first case they would have to go through the second car to endanger you, but in the second case they would be passing you and have no chance to see you until the car in front of them cleared you (which is still ok if the lane is wide enough, but not if it is narrow).
I think it is so situational, more so than travelling at speed on roadways, that each and every stop and intersection, as well as each driver, is different every time. Sometimes a driver will turn right without signalling from the center lane.
Since sharing lanes is allright when traffic is moving, I share lanes up to stops and traffic lights. I don't have a problem with my approach.
I also stop behind cars at intersections and don't attempt to share lanes.
It really depends on the intersection. Safety first.
I really like getting to the front of the line. When I put the hammer down off the line, I get about a half a city block on the rest of the traffic, and can carry that forward depending on how the lights are sequenced. And in a good, timed light sequence on downtown city blocks, a fast biker off the stops first can hold that lead for the next 10 blocks. Screw making a good impression, I'm allowed to share lanes and pass cars, this isn't high tea with the Queen of England.
no need to be that polite. I look at it this way, they're holding ME up. I'll leave PC to the armchair bikers.
Hi Everyone,
On a 4-lane street with a right turn lane, when I come up to a red light and there is a car in front of me in the 2nd lane, should I stay behind that car or should I pull up next to that car on the right but staying in the same lane? My son says I should do the latter. Which is correct?
Thanks,
Michele
The driver is probably talking on the cell phone, changing the radio, and combing his hair at the same time, so I pull up next to the car's right front wheel to make sure I'm SEEN. (and at 6'5", I should be ;) 0
John Wilke
Milwaukee
HH is very right to raise the important issue of ethics. Quite often the abstract notion of ethics can appear like an excessively deep complication of what should be a simplistic act. In reality it isn't and provided that your baseline of activity doesn't breach the law then a gradual stepping up to more ethical behaviour won't actually do any harm.
That aside I think that HH is missing trick here.
Now, if there are 15 cars, and especially if I'm likely to miss the light, sure, I'll take the hit for appearing submissive in order to gain some time, as long as it's safe, legal and reasonable to filter forward and stop to the right of the rear of the 1st car (or thereabouts).
But, doing so when there are 15 cars is also more likely to be seen as being done to get an advantage rather than out of a feeling of submissiveness relative to other traffic.
The description of filtering as taking "a hit" or compromising principles for an alternative gain is, in my eyes at least, erroneous. This act ties in with the ethics and philosophy of urban cycling which state that in dense urban conditions, such as where a large line up at the lights will occur, cycling is the most expedient method of travel. What you do here is demonstrate this fact to drivers and it in essence encourages the choice to cycle.
However, filtering does require safe practice. If you do so then there are a handful of safe positions to stop whilst waiting for the lights to go green:
1) Beside the lead car. If you are going to do this then you need to make sure that you are far enough forward that the driver can see you through the windscreen and not the side window. Not only that but make eye contact on both sides so that you know that both drivers know that you know that they know that you're there (best read slowly). The danger here is time. You may not have enough time to get to the front and make contact with the drivers etc. Choose this position wisely.
2) Behind the first or second cars. If you don't wish to or can't get to the lead position then this is the other safe position. Again you need to make contact with the drivers behind you. I find that in this position the best thing to do is have your front wheel beside the rear of the car in front. This closeness should make the driver behind pause a little before moving. Even if it doesn't this isn't a problem as your first act will be to peel away to the right a little. When moving off in this position be sure to watch the front wheels of the car in front. If they start on an unindicated turn then stop.
3) If, while filtering, the lights change before you've reached either position then stop two cars back from the closest moving car and treat as number 2.
The other rules of filtering are always do so in a low gear to ensure swift and smooth acceleration and always cover your brakes in anticipation of driver action that endangers your path.
There is one danger that arises when stopping behind a car that VC evangelists rarely point out. Regardless of other expectations of cyclists, drivers will have a desire to return to their pre-light speed as quickly as possible. This may lead them to tailgate you, an action which represents a far higher danger to cyclists than cars. Drivers may not recognise the threat that they pose to you.
If you act like you have the same rights and responsibilities as drivers of motor vehicles, then you are likely to have others respect those same rights.
If you act like you don't have the same rights and responsibilities, then you are likely to be treated accordingly.
Taking your place in line behind the one car that is already stopped, in the center of the lane, is a wonderful opportunity to make an important political statement with practical consequences. To everyone who see you do it, you are saying, It is my right to be here.. Can seeing just one cyclist do this once make a difference? Probably not. But it probably wouldn't take seeing hundreds or even tens either. If a driver runs into 2 or 3 cyclists asserting our rights like that within a relatively short period, I have to believe it will make an impact. A subtle but critical statement about the rights of cyclists, and their equal responsibilities, on the road.
Why pass up such a wonderful opportunity by stopping alongside a car at an intersection?
Be bold. Stand up for the rights of all cyclists. Stop behind the car, in the center of the lane.
Plus, if this is a commute, you will likely see the same drivers day after day (and the same drivers will see you). You can teach them what to expect from you.
I don't mind slowing traffic from time to time (that's part of being in traffic), but I think it's just wrong to force a car to pass me twice. If I cut through to the front of the line, that's exactly what I force the cars to do.
picking your line through an intersection does not have to be a political act! And overthinking politically correct statements while biking can make your mental chamois bunch up, counterproductive to actual bicycling.
What an overinjection of highminded cycling theory (stand up for bikers rights! wait in line!) into an abstract, complex bicycling scenario.
The Seldom Kill had some valuable positioning tips about actual, as opposed to theoretical, lane sharing at intersections.
To the side of the first in line, or in the intersices of the first several, and being vigilant about your cushion zone while operating in traffic at intersections.
Riding up, or hanging back, is a very situational, unique every time decision.
When I 'stand up' for MY bicycling rights (as opposed to a scooter rider, say) at an intersection, I prefer to be standing up, shaking my heiney at the cars from a half a block ahead of them while they're sucking OPEC's tailpipe to get 3,000 pounds of steel up to speed after the light.
The two greatest myths about riding in traffic are:
1) No bicycle shall delay a car;
2) No car shall delay a bicycle.
But the reality is that in traffic, we all sometimes have to wait our turn.
picking your line through an intersection does not have to be a political act! And overthinking politically correct statements while biking can make your mental chamois bunch up, counterproductive to actual bicycling.
What an overinjection of highminded cycling theory (stand up for bikers rights! wait in line!) into an abstract, complex bicycling scenario.
I did think, after posting, that I might have over done it a little.
I guess the concise answer is that a cyclist should learn to do it all and treat each arrival at a junction on it's own merits.
I'g predicting that HH may say that picking a line through a junction is always a political act whether you like it or not.
I'g predicting that HH may say that picking a line through a junction is always a political act whether you like it or not.
HH may say anything at all, as is his style. And others can consider the value of HH's statements as is their choice. And others may have read all they care to ever read of HH's statements and delete/ignore all further HH proclamations without reading them at all.
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