Very good point Cadd. Each and every case can be different. I have investigated more fatal and serious injury crashes than I want to remember. Sometimes there was justification for criminal charges and sometimes there wasn't. I've had families threaten to sue me as the police officer if I didn't push for charges. I can't and won't push for charges if the case is not there to be made.
Along with what Cadd said, let's say you were driving down a residential street and a child darts from between two parked cars and you hit and kill him. In the opinion of commuterrun, there should be charges against the driver even though the entire cause of the crash is the child's fault. Sometimes there just isn't a criminal charge to be brought, period!
a person should be in control of their vehicle at all times... if in a residential area where kids might be playing, one must anticipate a 'darting' child... I do when I ride in these types of situations... usually a residential area will have speed limits of 25 mph... my normal cruising speed when riding is in the low 20s or so... being passed by motor vehicles in these areas is the norm, not the exception... police officer you say?
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
Yes, police officer for 15 plus years. Indiana crash reports have a spot to list primary cause of a crash and one of the choices is pedestrian action. Sometimes the bet driver in the world could have a little kid dart in front of him. He is in control of his vehicle, that does not mean he is in control of the actions of someone else. If someone at the last minute walks in front of your car to committ suicide, who is at fault for that?
Commuter, the difference in some circumstances between a .32 and a Chevy is intent. Generally when you pull the trigger of a gun it is meant to harm. Driving a Chevy down a street may not have had the same intent.
knoregs
Yes, police officer for 15 plus years. Indiana crash reports have a spot to list primary cause of a crash and one of the choices is pedestrian action. Sometimes the bet driver in the world could have a little kid dart in front of him. He is in control of his vehicle, that does not mean he is in control of the actions of someone else. If someone at the last minute walks in front of your car to committ suicide, who is at fault for that?
yeah a suicide would be a whole different ballgame... but your hypothetical was a kid in a residential area... my point was simply that I as a cyclist anticipate kids when in residential areas, especially when there are parked cars on the street... i also anticipate a door of one of these parked vehicles possibly opening... so I would like to think that a motorist could operate under the same m.o. when in similar areas... my second point being that this is just never the case... I ride through a lot of 25 mph residential areas doing 22-23 mph and I'm passed constantly, one car after another... the saddest part of the last statement is that the people speeding past me also live there and have kids... makes me wonder what in the hell is going through a persons mind when they tell me to get off the road... WOW!
Blue Order
I hit a dog while driving through a residential neighborhood years ago. I may have been going over the speed limit-- I don't remember anymore, but it's possible that I was-- but the dog just ran out suddenly and unexpectedly. I locked up the brakes as fast as I could and did everything I could to keep from hitting the dog. I still ran over it, just as I brought the car to a stop. The dog was under my car yelping, and I was literally shaking behind the wheel. Fortunately, the dog wasn't dead, no serious injuries (at least none apparent). The dog's owner's seemed utterly unconcerned that their dog had just run out into the street and been hit by a car-- I was saying it should go to a vet, they were saying the dog was fine.
That accident probably did a lot to slow me down, because I now know how suddenly a kid or animal can appear under my wheels, and how impossible it can be to stop before I hit that kid or animal, no matter how much I want to stop. When I'm in a car with a driver who has no awareness of that, it makes me cringe.
slagjumper
I am somewhat good friends with a Vietnamese family here in my town. They run a few grocery stores. One thing is that they always avoid any contact with the police. I think that that comes from their mother country where the police are federal. Anyway even if they where robbed or otherwise wronged they would never go to the police.
I think that it would be important that Carol Zampino at least pay for her mistake. And there is no question that she made a mistake. Rear ending another rightful road user puts her at fault. She is the "cause" of death. Sure she can claim a phone had nothing to do with it. That is fine, since there is no cell phone law. There is no SC state recognized negligence involved with talking on a cell phone while driving.
This comment from the newspaper’s comments, make it sound like she got a lawyer and had Kim’s family sign off on filing civil complaint
"THERE WILL BE NO TRIAL,I WILL NOT BE "HALLED ANYWHERE UP NORTH",OR TO ANY JAIL."
Ms. Z is sounding like the beauty queen who just wanted everyone to see how bad life was for her after she killed someone and got off.
sentinel
knoregus, what about driving through a residential neighborhood and being distracted by motion to the left and as you look left, a child runs out from the right? It is the driver's responsibility to know his surroundings, but that does not mean something like I just described couldn't happen.
Blue Order
Hard to have a trial when the cyclist ran into her mirror (according to the quasi-literate Ms.Z.)...
Roody
Are some of you saying that pedestrians and cyclists are never the cause of the crash that hurts or kills them? That seems very naive or ignorant. Also in the US you can't jsut automatically arrest somebody because they are involved in a crash. We have a Bill of Rights. I know a lot of conservatives would like to repeal it, but so far they have been unsuccessful.
Even if the witch in the SUV were talking on her phone, that does not automatically nean that she was negligent. Most people are distracted by phones, but some are not. There would have to be an investigation to prove this, and it would not be easy to prove.
Blue Order
Are some of you saying that pedestrians and cyclists are never the cause of the crash that hurts or kills them? That seems very naive or ignorant. Also in the US you can't jsut automatically arrest somebody because they are involved in a crash. We have a Bill of Rights. I know a lot of conservatives would like to repeal it, but so far they have been unsuccessful.
Even if the witch in the SUV were talking on her phone, that does not automatically nean that she was negligent. Most people are distracted by phones, but some are not. There would have to be an investigation to prove this, and it would not be easy to prove.You're right, but in this case, Ms. Z. is claiming that the cyclist "struck" the passenger side mirror first, causing her to "loose control" of her bike before she then struck the vehicle. Get it? In Ms. Z's parallel universe, the vehicle didn't sideswipe the cyclist, causing the cyclist to lose control of her bike, before the vehicle struck her a second time. No, in Ms. Z's universe, the cyclist struck the vehicle. Twice. Probably just materialized from our alternate universe, causing the entire accident by riding too close to Ms. Z's SUV.
knoregs
knoregus
~
~ it's knoregs
~
It is the driver's responsibility to know his surroundings
~
~ We have agreement
~
but that does not mean something like I just described couldn't happen.
~
~ when I wrote that autos would pass me in residential areas when I am riding at the speed limit I was implying that it was an accident waiting to happen.... soooooo basically.... ABSOLUTELY ;)
~
sentinel
My humblest apologies for the spelling error.
huhenio
We need MACD (Mothers against Cellphone Driving). But unfortunately kids don't ride bikes anymore. Only irresponsible grownups and poor brown-skinned people. And nobody cares about them.
Bingo.
It is a class issue.
huhenio
NEWSUPDATE: She got off with two point on her licence and a ticket for driving too fast for the conditions (fog).
I truly hope that a civil suit follows from the family side.
Gusboh
WHAT THE HELL???!!!
This is a ****ing outrage... She kills some poor lady and only gets points off... I say we wenzel her... Find out EVERYTHING about her and post it on the net...
slagjumper
...Really I dont know if she will be charged but it is clear as day that she should be charged with vehicular homicide. But I dont think that that is actualy a crime is SC.
a good friend of mine is in prison for it right now, so yeah, it's a crime in SC.
This is odd. What were the circumstances in that case? Seems like "fog" is a good excuse. No one mentioned fog in the article.
genec
WHAT THE HELL???!!!
This is a ****ing outrage... She kills some poor lady and only gets points off... I say we wenzel her... Find out EVERYTHING about her and post it on the net...
wenzel? Where did this term come from?
Blue Order
This is odd. What were the circumstances in that case? Seems like "fog" is a good excuse. No one mentioned fog in the article.I'd have to disagree that fog is a good excuse. The thing with fog is, you're supposed to slow down. The thicker the fog, the slower you're supposed to drive, even if it means a snail's pace. Safe driving means being able to stop before you hit something/someone, and in fog, that means slowing way down, because visibility is reduced. That's why every state has a law on the books that talks about driving safe for the conditions-- it sounds very vague and subjective, but conditions vary, and what is safe on a bright, sunny day is not safe in fog. She got off with a slap on the wrist. If she had killed somebody important-- a cop, for instance-- she'd be serving time. You can bet that the Brotherhood in Blue would insist on it.
Gusboh
wenzel? Where did this term come from?
Wenzel (http://www.wenzeled.com/site/)
Ssome punk kid tried to trick a guy (on a 4x4 forum) into buying used stuff (advertised as new), and tried to raise the price too. Everyone on that forum decided that wasn't on, and found out all of Wenzel's (kid's last name) information and posted it on the net. People found the wenzel thread, linked it on their own forums and crashed the server from the amount of traffic.
Basically, a kid was dumb and thought that his actions had no consequence, but he was taught a lesson.
We can do the same thing. She sounds like she needs a lesson to me...
HelloE
She is a hairdresser. She came from a rich family, Custom Home builder.
Look it up in google (carol Zampino).
The fog light and rear view mirror came off from her SUV. Look it up and see how well protected the ligh is and think what was happen. (the bike and light were held by firefighter on Mathew Dr., Hilton Head, sc 29926).
The victim body was 35 -40 feet forward (away from where the impact was), at 15 degree angle. The paints still on the road way and the grass.
The crash happened at noon time, sunny, and about 60 degree.
It was well organized so she can get off with notthing.
It is so sad.
Blue Order
Some ideas:
* A ghost bike would be super-appropriate here. Make the ****ing **** see the consequences of her attitude every time she drives down that road.
* Also, here's something I saw in Portland: A messenger was killed downtown, and her friends painted an outline of her body on the street, with a painted message that a cyclist was killed there. Later, they chained a bike to a streetpost at the site, but it's not really a ghost bike-- just a bike with a basket and some flowers in the basket.
* If any place is crying out for a critical mass ride, it's got to be that self-satisfied ****hole.
Blue Order
She is a hairdresser. She came from a rich family, Custom Home builder.Typical east-coast trash. How surprising.
The crash happened at noon time, sunny, and about 60 degree.So was it sunny or foggy? Can't be both. Does anybody have a clear line on this?
slagjumper
Typical east-coast trash. How surprising.
So was it sunny or foggy? Can't be both. Does anybody have a clear line on this?
I got the fog from a post that I think was deleted it also stated that she only got "2 points". Hard to imagine fog on an island at noon. I looked up the weather and there was no rain that day.
slagjumper
NEWSUPDATE: She got off with two point on her licence and a ticket for driving too fast for the conditions (fog).
I truly hope that a civil suit follows from the family side.
Typical east-coast trash. How surprising.
So was it sunny or foggy? Can't be both. Does anybody have a clear line on this?
Hard to imagine fog on an island at noon. I looked up the weather and there was no rain that day. huhenio where did you find that info?
genec
Hard to imagine fog on an island at noon. I looked up the weather and there was no rain that day. huhenio where did you find that info?
Fog can form for other reasons than simple chill and high humidity (dew point)... there is also a thing called advection fog (http://www.econet.org.uk/weather/fog.html) that can occur in mid day in mainly coastal areas... I have seen it come over the hills from the ocean on otherwise bright sunny days here in San Diego. Occurs very suddenly.
huhenio
The local newspaper info ... they are not too keen of her
Dchiefransom
And if I were found to be not at fault, the record would show that, and if it did, I would have the option of getting the record expunged.
Apply for a job and your arrest has to be listed. Your employer bids on work and all employees are run through background checks. These are examples of an arrest record causing problems for you, even if you weren't at fault. Good luck on getting that expunged off your record. If you ever went through a serious security check for something, the expunged arrest would still show up.
Gusboh
But she is a hairdresser mate, that isn't something that people are going to do a full background for is it?
CM ride is a great idea, as is the body outline, as is the ghost rider.
slagjumper
I thinks someone should go in there in drag and get ms z to give a cut. Then have a convulsion and accidentally flail a scissor into her cell phone hand. Yeah yeah she wasn't talking on the phone. Right.
Or for the non violent, how about discarding a fish head in the hair dressers garbage can wrapped in the article from the local paper. You know you could probably do a lot, legally without resorting to use of a "car".
Could wait outside the door of her place of business then "run" into her with your bike. Opps that would be intent.
I think that I am going to HH island for my vacation.
Could get an old rental beach cruiser and...
Actually it is really sad when people refuse to take responsibility for their actions. I bet her husband or boyfriend is always to blame.
Gusboh
Be careful what you post, cops etc read this stuff. Assault is still assault, even when it feels like the right thing to do. We need to do peaceful things, that still show her how big a thing she has done, Read - teach her a lesson.
slagjumper
Ha ha it's all a joke. I hope she chokes on a bit of kimchi. Let's pitch in and hire a PI. A woman like that surely is doing more wrong. I wonder if her family is OK with the IRS?
CommuterRun
Apply for a job and your arrest has to be listed. Your employer bids on work and all employees are run through background checks. These are examples of an arrest record causing problems for you, even if you weren't at fault. Good luck on getting that expunged off your record. If you ever went through a serious security check for something, the expunged arrest would still show up.
And for a driver involved in involuntary manslaughter because of negligence, this would be just.
Almost all drivers ignore speed limits, we've all seen this, and yet it's only one blatant example of negligent driving.
huhenio
She should not go to jail, since she made a honest mistake ;)
... but as part of a lifetime slap on the wrist, she should be forced to never drive again and instead .... you guessed it.
Become the champion of cycling advocacy in the state of SC, organizer of all things cycling, and prime example of cyclocommuting, and why not ... an ultracyclist.
... who remembers the "Point of View Gun?" from the "Hitchhiker's guide ..."
Dchiefransom
And for a driver involved in involuntary manslaughter because of negligence, this would be just.
Almost all drivers ignore speed limits, we've all seen this, and yet it's only one blatant example of negligent driving.
This is not just drivers involed in involuntary manslaughter because of negligence. You suggested that every driver be arrested on the spot. This would include the driver traveling at the speed limit down a high speed highway that has someone run a red light, or stop sign, and get killed when they are T-boned. The driver with the right-of-way would now have an arrest record, that must be listed on all employment applications. Not including it, or leaving it off after it is expunged would be grounds for immediate dismaissal later.
scarry
Try yelling at someone in a car talking on the cell phone. "Hey, get off the phone and drive".
Watch them go off.
huhenio
Yep ... I try that with my wife all the time. No wonder I require assistance driving after the first 1000 miles.
scarry
WHAT THE HELL???!!!
This is a ****ing outrage... She kills some poor lady and only gets points off... I say we wenzel her... Find out EVERYTHING about her and post it on the net...
[edited by moderator]
A bunch of people could harrass her by calling in appoinments but of course not going.
[Moderator's note: This is Bike Forums, not hate forums. No matter how anguishing you find this situation, you cannot use the forum as a springboard to promote harassment.
Thank you,
Expatriate - Forum Moderator]
Gusboh
Or.... "i know what you did..." click
genec
Why would anyone guilty of killing a pedestrian or cyclist or anyone else for that matter while operating a motor vehicle EVER be allowed to drive again?
Seems if you make that mistake, you should NEVER operate a motor vehicle again (in addition to other punishment). Too bad, you lose that privilege for life.
Try walking, mass transit or, crazy as this sounds, cycling from now on.
You know as draconian as that may sound to some... it really does seem like an appropriate punishment for abusing the privilege of driving. Too many folks are getting off with just wrist slaps for killing a fellow human with a deadly vehicle.
It is about time some law with teeth is put into place.
sentinel
Just remember, calling and hanging up or making such comments repeatedly may land the caller in court for phone harasment.
Gusboh
But KILLING SOMEONE won't land you in court... This world is so completely ****ed in the head sometimes.
knoregs
Just remember, calling and hanging up or making such comments repeatedly may land the caller in court for phone harasment.
I'm having a vision... cyclists doing time for harassing a cyclist killer who remains free... I must be dreaming... please somebody pinch me!
HelloE
There is another blog on this:
http://www2.islandpacket.com/node/4797
Gusboh
Who else feels like registering just to abuse?
Must not register, must not register...
TMX
A bunch of people could harrass her by calling in appoinments but of course not going.
Some of you really need to grow the hell up. Those who choose to harrass Miss Zampino will accomplish nothing other than to demonstrate that they share her ability to be immature creeps. If you think harassing her will do some good, you are wrong.
Want to change something? Phone the prosecutor. Start a petition. Travel to Hilton Head and stage a demonstration in front of the courthouse. Maybe work twards getting newer, tougher laws on the books to outlaw cell phone usage while driving (assuming that cell phone usage does actually turn out to be a factor in this case).
I like the ghost bike idea, and the memorial ride mentioned somewhere else in this thread. Both ideas will bring positive attention to the situation. The high road, guys. Always.
-Bob
Blue Order
That police report says "inattention" and "cell phone." How they go from that to "driving too fast" is beyond me.
Just in case anyone is curious, somebody on the blog asked what the family can get in a civil suit if all she owns is her car. The answer is the family gets a judgment. How they collect that is up to them. If she owns anything, they can seize it and sell it. She owns a business. They can garnish her income. If she inherits anything, they can go after that. Basically, she's on the hook financially from the time they win the judgment until the time they collect. At age 26, that could be a very, very long time. And I seriously doubt a spoiled little princess like that "owns nothing."
Blue Order
Some of you really need to grow the hell up. Those who choose to harrass Miss Zampino will accomplish nothing other than to demonstrate that they share her ability to be immature creeps. If you think harassing her will do some good, you are wrong.
Want to change something? Phone the prosecutor. Start a petition. Travel to Hilton Head and stage a demonstration in front of the courthouse. Maybe work twards getting newer, tougher laws on the books to outlaw cell phone usage while driving (assuming that cell phone usage does actually turn out to be a factor in this case).
I like the ghost bike idea, and the memorial ride mentioned somewhere else in this thread. Both ideas will bring positive attention to the situation. The high road, guys. Always.
-Bob+1
huhenio
Read the police report linked on the PDF ... cel phone yakking while driving kills
sentinel
Committing one crime because of another doesn't make it right.
Mr. Miskatonic
The police reports were posted on that newspaper blog: