Thanks buddy. :rolleyes: And yet my "environmental footprint" remains unchanged from if I worked in the local food co-op, but I remain a "little Eichmann." I don't automatically think that cars are evil, just their over-use. I do what I can for the environment, yet I don't hate on "cagers," it's just a matter of minding my own business instead of being a car-free puritan, which is winning us no friends, in case anyone cares to notice.
(Note: i haven't read on to the following posts since this one.)

I think Kris should NOT feel guilty at all. sure, maybe he can think about and decide he really wants to switch.
BUT, my guess would be that the reality is that one can make a much better living as a car mechanic than as a bike mechanic - this is a "problem" of our soceity and the car-centric culture, but it is not Kris' doing. People are going to drive and pollute and whatnot regardless of whether Kris earns his living by repairing cars (and yes, i know that if ALL mechanics revolted then it would not be so, but we all know that is not going to happen)
As long as Kris feels comfortable doing his job then so be it.
and Bekologist, i would agreed with many of your points in the thread, but i don't see it quite right to dictate that someone should feel guilty for his profession (unless it has to do with dishonesty or illegal activities or such)

as an aside: 2 years ago as i was looking for a new job as my old one was just not so exciting, i found a REALLY interesting opportunity - a well-paid position for a successfull company putting a lot of money into research in an area i found technically VERY interesting... but it was an auto company (BMW). at first i thought there was no way i could work for an auto company. then i thought about it a few days and decided that i should apply --- there wasn't anythign "evil" that i would have been doing at the job and if i didn't do it someone else would and maybe i could some how do something positive. (in the end it didn't matter as i applied and it went nowhere). in private sphere i have since met 3 people working for BMW (HQ is located in Munich) who are car-free - it's a job and in their private lives they prefer to ride bikes and the train.

(.
BUT, my guess would be that the reality is that one can make a much better living as a car mechanic than as a bike mechanic - this is a "problem" of our soceity and the car-centric culture, but it is not Kris' doing.


Oh please....do you really think fixing a bicycle is anywhere close to being able to work on any part of a modern day automobile? That's ridiculous.

you guys ARE a bunch of dolts, but misled!

I could care less if you refuse to accept common knowledge about automobile pollution.

Apparently it's not so common if you can't even back it up. Prepare to be challenged if you grab facts out of thin air.

I'm not about debating if cars are culpable in pollution, FxJohn...that's a nonargument.

Now we are dwelving further and further into the nuance and inevitability of dealing with automobiles in our culture. To I like to bike, don't piss in the campfire so much- Mackinac Island is one of the few places in America there are NO private automobiles so everyone uses horses, bikes or walks. But yes, most people drive to the ferry terminal and yes, the sugar for the fudge is imported, very astute of you to point out the realities of a global economy.
Many people? Maybe a little closer to ALL people, except perhaps the few who live isolated there, go NOWHERE, and survive on the money and products brought to them by people who do drive.

BTW, How does Bekologist get to Mackinac Island, especially trips from greater pugetopolis?

I'm not arguing that we live in a car culture either, that's a nondebate as well.





BTW, How does Bekologist get to Mackinac Island, especially trips from greater pugetopolis?

Well, I haven't been since I moved away because I have believed in regionalism since I was a lad. However, back then I'd hitchiked to the ferry terminals, driven a vehicle for hire to the sailboat races, sailed a boat there, got a ride across the straights from some drunk we met in a bar in St Ignace one night after the ferries stopped running, and would certainly consider a trip in a sea kayak a doable venture. I've also been on work retreats and to see friends during the winter. I'd never ridden bikes to the ferry terminal, because I would always bike tour towards Copper Country and into the Huron mountains as well...

The last time I drove for a trip here in my region was July 4th weekend. We went to ski a volcano, so I brought the car to the trailhead. I'm working on being able to haul my skis to the north cascades on my bicycle for next spring season's skiing. I used my car about 4 times since I suffered a broken hip in August. I felt extremely guilty doing so. Back on my utility bike now, the station wagon now sits and grows moss.

I used my car about 4 times since I suffered a broken hip in August. I felt extremely guilty doing so. Back on my utility bike now, the station wagon now sits and grows moss.


Oh brother...do you realize how much cost and pollution went into fixing your hip?
Can I venture I guess you do not like the snowmobiling sport up in the UP?
I really like the Big Bay area.

Well, I think four stroke engines are much better then two stroke jobbers, but I'm not going to argue the presence of mechanised transport. When I used to ski tour on the snowmobile trails, hauling sledge, I'd really get a dose of the exhaust from a pack of skidoo riders...

I wouldn't own a snowmobile, true. Are they also vehicles of utility for some people? yes. for drunks tooling around in the woods going 90, not so much.


Big Bay is very nice, I worked at the health camp one summer, and think the special olympics joke was pretty lowbrow.

I loved heading North and West from Big Bay and cutting cross the Hurons.....absolutely beautiful in there...ironic auto magnates were the ones who helped preserve that neck of the woods...

I'm not arguing that we live in a car culture either, that's a nondebate as well.





Well, I haven't been since I moved away because I have believed in regionalism since I was a lad. However, back then I'd hitchiked to the ferry terminals, driven a vehicle for hire to the sailboat races, sailed a boat there, got a ride across the straights from some drunk we met in a bar in St Ignace one night after the ferries stopped running, and would certainly consider a trip in a sea kayak a doable venture. I've also been on work retreats and to see friends during the winter. I'd never ridden bikes to the ferry terminal, because I would always bike tour towards Copper Country and into the Huron mountains as well...

The last time I drove for a trip here in my region was July 4th weekend. We went to ski a volcano, so I brought the car to the trailhead. I'm working on being able to haul my skis to the north cascades on my bicycle for next spring season's skiing. I used my car about 4 times since I suffered a broken hip in August. I felt extremely guilty doing so. Back on my utility bike now, the station wagon now sits and grows moss.
You OWN a car? :eek:

Well, I think four stroke engines are much better then two stroke jobbers, but I'm not going to argue the presence of mechanised transport. When I used to ski tour on the snowmobile trails, hauling sledge, I'd really get a dose of the exhaust from a pack of skidoo riders...

I wouldn't own a snowmobile, true. Are they also vehicles of utility for some people? yes. for drunks tooling around in the woods going 90, not so much.


Big Bay is very nice, I worked at the health camp one summer, and think the special olympics joke was pretty lowbrow.

I loved heading North and West from Big Bay and cutting cross the Hurons.....absolutely beautiful in there...ironic auto magnates were the ones who helped preserve that neck of the woods...


I'm planning a week at Isle Royale next year...hiking and camping, what do you think?

I disclosed that in my first post, yes, oil boy..

Isle Royale is beautiful, I've been several times. I was working up to sea kayaking there from the Copper Country prior to moving away.

I disclosed that in my first post, yes, oil boy..


Hitchhiking is OK too..LOL

a recent post debated the merits of hitching a ride with Swiss post office vans versus walking, i don't remember the consensus on that one...

I guess my take on this, Bekologist is that you're in the same boat (or maybe on the same freeway) as everyone else - trying to reduce your car use, but still using. So your posts come across as both judgemental and frankly, hypocritical when you call people unethical, or label them as "oil boy", "gas huffers" whatever, for their continuing vehicle use. If you used "us" instead of "you" in all your posts attacking car users, I think we'd all have no argument.

okay, I thought being a gas huffer was a given, and we are all trying to do our part to minimize the effects. I own a car, mentioned it in post #2, and stated my shiznit stinks, I'm not any holier than thou hypocrite. As pervasive the auto autocracy is, it is not an inevitable personal choice, and the less reliance on them the better.

I ride my bike to year round farmer's markets and try to buy with regionalism on the plate, to minimize the transport costs associated with my food by using locally produced goods as much as possible. My dairymaid knows the farmer and probably knows some of the cows. I know the people that grow my chard and potatoes and apples and etc.

a recent post debated the merits of hitching a ride with Swiss post office vans versus walking, i don't remember the consensus on that one...

I participated in that thread. My take is that mail (and for that matter, necessary supplies) have to be delivered, and even people who think driving personal cars is unacceptable, should be able to hitch a ride on a necessary delivery vehicle without a qualm.

And how in the heck does people smoking in bathtubs have ANYTHING to do with air pollution?

Can't hardly see the trees thru the smog...

It fits the theme of this thread. Probably time to let it die.

As for priorities, the smoking one's been won here, smoking is banned from all public buildings now. If we could just deal with second-hand smog the same way :rolleyes:

aside from air pollution, the car culture shapes the landscape in detrimental ways...roads, roads, more roads...parking lots, shopping malls. Water quality really suffers, and ground water recharge is reduced by all that impervious surface.

And then there's the quality of life issue. Why should I have to drive somewhere when I would rather walk or ride my bike. Living on a cul-de-sac in a subdivision that is segregated from other activities of life (stores, schools, entertainment) is no fun.

And every place starts to look like every other place. Blah.

It seems silly to me. I work in the transport industry, and our main clients are 2 aluminium smelters. They blast huge holes in the ground, and use giant earth moving machines to remove the raw materials. It's heated in giant crucibles to a molten form, then anodes are dropped in and massive amount of voltage are applied to purify the metal. The ingots, logs, and slabs are then loaded by forklifts onto trucks, and are brought to our yard. We load it into containers, and rail it by electric train to the wharf, where more heavy equipment loads it onto boats that will deliver it around the world. I can't name our customers, but I can assure you that the bike you're riding has at least one or more component on it that came from the ground here. And bikes still have rubber tyres. Sure, it's not as wasteful as a car, but the environmental impact is there.

Food for thought.

Good post. There is no such thing as a "non-consumer" nowadays.

True view from the Soo that, Andy. Pivot point for commerce, see lots of steel and wheat.

aside from air pollution, the car culture shapes the landscape in detrimental ways...roads, roads, more roads...parking lots, shopping malls. Water quality really suffers, and ground water recharge is reduced by all that impervious surface.

And then there's the quality of life issue. Why should I have to drive somewhere when I would rather walk or ride my bike. Living on a cul-de-sac in a subdivision that is segregated from other activities of life (stores, schools, entertainment) is no fun.

And every place starts to look like every other place. Blah.

Everyone is different. I don't want to live next to a noisy store, i like my house in the woods.
It's all about having choices

I hope while in the woods, you lean your desires more towards bikes and skis than motorbikes and snowmobiles, but you are correct, fxjohn, to each his own.

I hope while in the woods, you lean your desires more towards bikes and skis than motorbikes and snowmobiles, but you are correct, fxjohn, to each his own.


A little bit of snowmobiling...but i may sell it.
No quads or motorbikes.
I am leaning more towards icefishing and cc skiing for winter stuff.

Everyone is different. I don't want to live next to a noisy store, i like my house in the woods. It's all about having choices

I agree that we all have, and should have, choices open to us. But your choices aren't just for you...they impact on others. If you're a farmer or a rural worker, or are somehow self sufficient, fine; but if you (and I don't mean you personally, but anybody who lives in that situation) drive to the city to work every day and society builds, maintains and snowsplows the road to your door, then your lifestyle may be imposing an economic as well as ecological burden on others. Cities actually have a smaller environmental footprint than many rural areas, and are more cost-effective in tax expenditures on things like roads, policing, public schools, etc.
And that doesn't mean that Big Brother is going to force you to move. It just means that people are responsible for the effect their choices have. You may be forced to accept higher personal costs, and perhaps also higher taxes or fewer services, to maintain your home in the woods as fuel becomes scarcer.

Oh please....do you really think fixing a bicycle is anywhere close to being able to work on any part of a modern day automobile? That's ridiculous.
John, please READ the post before responding...
i in no way stated or even alluded that a bike mechanic is equivalent --- my point was exactly the opposite: that it is NOT.
BUT, as this is the car-free section of the Bike Forum, i thought an obvious alternative to Auto Mechanic would be bike mechanic -- what would you suggest as the "more" obvious alternative if someone were to give up being an auto-mechanic b/c of moral disbelief in the auto-society? maybe train mechanic for public transit or busses?... but that seems a little less "generic"

I agree that we all have, and should have, choices open to us. But your choices aren't just for you...they impact on others. If you're a farmer or a rural worker, or are somehow self sufficient, fine; but if you (and I don't mean you personally, but anybody who lives in that situation) drive to the city to work every day and society builds, maintains and snowsplows the road to your door, then your lifestyle may be imposing an economic as well as ecological burden on others. Cities actually have a smaller environmental footprint than many rural areas, and are more cost-effective in tax expenditures on things like roads, policing, public schools, etc.
And that doesn't mean that Big Brother is going to force you to move. It just means that people are responsible for the effect their choices have. You may be forced to accept higher personal costs, and perhaps also higher taxes or fewer services, to maintain your home in the woods as fuel becomes scarcer.


well, i drive to a very small town Via 5 miles of backroads than an interstate. I would expect the back roads be maintained by the county taxes.
If they decided to plow less, I could get by with 4WD easily.

But please explain this contempt for car owners.

Everyone needs something to feel self-righteous about, and this forum gives the opportunity for some people to pat themselves on the back and play holier-than-thou for a little while. Our society is also about disparaging people that are not like us so that we may feel better about ourselves. We all do it. Hell, I'm doing it right now! The world would probably be a much better place if everyone worked on improving their own faults and shortcomings rather than incessantly pointing out those of others.

So what if my neighbor owns 10 Hummers. I can make myself sick worrying about it or getting mad, or I can have fun riding my bike and maybe even make friends with him and be an inspiration to him.

Browbeating only works on kids (sometimes) and employees. It doesn't work with religion, politics or social issues. It generally just polarizes the sides and creates more conflict. Those who engage in the practice of constantly chastising others for their behavior only marginalize themselves and tick everyone else off. Bitterness is a pill that one swallows, then hopes someone else feels the effects. I sense a lot of bitterness and maybe even jealousy when reading some of these posts. You're only hurting yourself.

Biking is supposed to be fun. Let's showcase how fun it is to ride, and it may encourage others to give it a try. Giving up the car happens much, much later.

well, i drive to a very small town Via 5 miles of backroads than an interstate. I would expect the back roads be maintained by the county taxes.
If they decided to plow less, I could get by with 4WD easily.
Five miles is pretty short. But the cost of maintaining that rural road is shared by a lot fewer people than the cost of maintaining 5 miles of road in downtown Indianapolis, so in a rational world, that portion of your taxes should be much higher than someone pays in the city.

Five miles is pretty short. But the cost of maintaining that rural road is shared by a lot fewer people than the cost of maintaining 5 miles of road in downtown Indianapolis, so in a rational world, that portion of your taxes should be much higher than someone pays in the city.


Sounds fair to me. Of course then only rich people get to enjoy living in the country.

So what if my neighbor owns 10 Hummers.

Well, now we all know where you live! :)

(For readers who don't get it, click here (http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide-2004/hummer.asp))

The quality of life bit interests me. I was thinking about that on the way home. In SoCal, I had 3 cars - a 4WD for playtime, a toy-racer for getting to work on the weekends in Malibu, and a slightly more grown up and comfortable compact SUV for daily use. Over here, I have a single car. My wife doesn't drive. Lack of car severely limits our income potential over here. My wife is limited as to where she can work, due to lack of transportation. I could have gotten a lower paying job in town, but by virtue of being able to travel, I have earned an income that allows us to live in relative comfort with 3 kids in the house. We would not have been able to afford the $15k or so worth of bikes we've bought/built in the last year, were it not for my commute. Sure, my side business helped, but it's the steady pay that's made the difference. Weather permitting, I can commute to my current work location a few days a week. But in my case, the car makes the difference in our lifestyle.

For me, being car free teaches me to get by with less than most people. Being car free teaches me to be less driven by consumerism. It teaches me that I don't "need" a car to be content with my life, and that I can get around whilst excersizing (something most americans lack to begin with).

Whereas you are not willing to make the change to be car-free (yes, it is a choice... same as being veg/etari/an). You'd use your car(s) if it meant having more money in the end, allowing you to drive your toy cars and motorbikes, SUV's, perhaps live in some suburbia with an obnoxiously sized house for you, wife, and 2.5 kids. In the end when you acquire it all... I would not at all be suprised if you wanted more, or felt it's not enough to satisfy you and your ideal life. Our own standards change all the time. If you ever made the decision to change over to a car-free life, we will all be here to applaud you :) If not, then whatevs. I guess we tried...?

I'm not trying to be "holier than thou", but I'm trying to do my part and be more consious of my actions and choices. There are things I still need to work on, but the chance to maintain, and perhaps better our environment is worth it to me. "Utility cycling" puts us more in touch and perspective with what's around us, which compells me to care more about the environment. Driving isolates you from your surroundings, which could be a factor to the numbness a lot of people feel towards the environment.

I read through all the posts, and many of you brought up interesting points... just thought I'd let you know :) I'm sure this forum is here to help people like expat understand what it means to be car free and car lite (miller lite?), while helping the fellow car-freesters (wtf ahah) with advice and whatnot.

And to save time and posting stats, I'm gonna crunch this one in:

you guys probably mostly all know this already, but...

General Motors and a tire company (Firestone i think) and an oil company were found GUILTY in US Court for conspiracy for exactly this:
they indirectly bought the trolley systems in vairous cities (Portland, Sanfrancisco + others) and replaced them with busses = tore up or paved over the tracks == more vehicles to sell, more tires and more oil! they were found guilty in court and had to pay some penalty but the damage was already done!

not sure if the same thing happened in canada, but very likely.

Happened in Honolulu too :\ still very car-centered on the islands... pretty sad, considering the weather is usually good for a nice bike ride.... until it starts (literally) pouring buckets >:P It happens. Especially during the current season.

Then again, Portland isn't all that grand either. Doesn't pour as hard, but is MUCH colder. It might even snow today :B (Note to self: Get some vodka and honey for hot toddies)

I disclosed that in my first post, yes, oil boy..Sorry, I just assumed you didn't have a car since you were implying I was a hypocrit who was out of place posting in the car-free forum, earlier. I don't own a car,LOL. You'd probably like being car-free, it might free your mind from this state of cognitive dissonance that's got a hold of it. As it stands, you just need to go ahead and forget about this thread, as you've squandered every ounce of holier-than-thou credibility you might have imagined you once had.
:)

For me, being car free teaches me to get by with less than most people. Being car free teaches me to be less driven by consumerism. It teaches me that I don't "need" a car to be content with my life, and that I can get around whilst excersizing (something most americans lack to begin with).

Whereas you are not willing to make the change to be car-free (yes, it is a choice... same as being veg/etari/an).
)


What about people who own or use cars very cheaply?
I have driven a paid off vehicle for years, it has over 200,00 miles.
All I have to do is pay about 400 dollars per year in Insurance.
It really costs me very little, and mostly I just use it to drive to work.
I also don't live in a mansion ( a small house) or spend much money. I save over 20 percent of my income.
Why isn't that as good as someone who is car free and broke or wastes money on CD's and electronics and clothes, and flushes money fdown the drain in rent?

Sorry, I just assumed you didn't have a car since you were implying I was a hypocrit who was out of place posting in the car-free forum, earlier. I don't own a car,LOL. You'd probably like being car-free, it might free your mind from this state of cognitive dissonance that's got a hold of it. As it stands, you just need to go ahead and forget about this thread, as you've squandered every ounce of holier-than-thou credibility you might have imagined you once had.
:)


He really should have quit when he was behind...ouch!

Why isn't that as good as someone who is car free and broke or wastes money on CD's and electronics and clothes, and flushes money fdown the drain in rent?
Because you aren't as holy as those (using "those" as a plural form of "thou") who are car free and broke or waste money on CD's and electronics and clothes, and flush money down the drain in rent.

Doubt it? Just read this forum.

Because you aren't as holy as those...

or as those who act self-righteous about other people acting self-righteous...

or as those who act self-righteous about other people acting self-righteous...
Whah? Yeah, OK, sure, whatever you say.

hey, oil boy, YOU asked if you should feel like a total sell out, and I said no, but you should feel like a partial one. You're a proud car free person but you work on other personal pollution devices? Sounds like you have sold out some too, oiler.

And my car? It was a gift, its 10 years old, and it has been used primarily in the service of saving lives by ferrying me to mountain rescue missions and volunteer work for the national park service- My car is a tool that helps me to save lives. Is that acceptable, oil boy?

On my last trip on July 4 weekend I assisted bringing a lost and disoriented climber off one of the NW volcanoes.

Hey 'pistofferson,

If you ever swing out California-way for a loaded bike tour, drop by Santa Rosa and I'll buy you a beer and we can go crash Bruce Gordon's joint down in Petaluma. Maybe he'll trade some lugs for some Lagunitas and a few jokes or something.

Anyway, back to the tennis match. Have fun!

hey, oil boy, YOU asked if you should feel like a total sell out, and I said no, but you should feel like a partial one. You're a proud car free person but you work on other personal pollution devices? Sounds like you have sold out some too, oiler.

And my car? It was a gift, its 10 years old, and it has been used primarily in the service of saving lives by ferrying me to mountain rescue missions and volunteer work for the national park service- My car is a tool that helps me to save lives. Is that acceptable, oil boy?

On my last trip on July 4 weekend I assisted bringing a lost and disoriented climber off one of the NW volcanoes.


Hey Yuporcrite, did you ever consider that by working on the cars, he makes them run better and pollute less?

And you, by saving people who drive cars are comitting far graver sins against mother earth
<the same, shaking head, the shame>
The go on to continue to drive and pollute..so ironic.

You still aren't taking any responsibility for the footprint you leave. I hope you don't plan on having kids and adding even more pressure on the eco system.

You still aren't taking any responsibility for the footprint you leave.

Umm, not really. I try to live thoughtfully and with as small of an environmental footprint as works for me, and have done so for a long time. I try to live an examined life. I think about my impact.
Sounds like you drive to the store, John. I sure as heck don't!

Are you really dismissing the efforts of someone who volunteers to help save people??

Are you that callous with people in your real life, or just arguing because it suits a fidget??

Umm, not really. I try to live thoughtfully and with as small of an environmental footprint as works for me, and have done so for a long time. I try to live an examined life. I think about my impact.
Sounds like you drive to the store, John. I sure as heck don't!

Are you really dismissing the efforts of someone who volunteers to help save people??

Are you that callous with people in your real life, or just arguing because it suits a fidget??


"save people" you mean reckless yuppies who venture out of their element like fools, so you can step in and be the big hero? What were they doing out there in those mountains...how did they get there?
Must have been more travelling than dropping by a store to get food.

What's so godawful about driving to the store?? LOL

I usually pick up a few items at lunch, a grocery store is part of a lunchtime walk, and put them in the fridge at work until I get home. If i need to go get lumber or something in my pickup, that's what it's for..LOL Most errands i can run on the way home from work.

"save people" you mean reckless yuppies who venture out of their element like fools, so you can step in and be the big hero? What were they doing out there in those mountains...how did they get there?

You sir, are an effing idiot.

You sir, are are an effing idiot.


Your ears are turning red and you're getting mad, but you have the door wide open to criticize any kind of needless consumption. Is vacation in and of itself no more than selfish waste??
You use recources and pollute to be this "ugly American" who proudfully tots his rich fat American ass any damn where he feels like being a tourist. Why is that not as bad as driving?
Do you realize the impact of airplane's inefficiency in achieving flight, fuel consumption and emissions they produce, when most of it is unecessary? Then of course you rent a car when you get there.
<the horror...the horror>

what are you talking about??

I've never rented a car on any vacation and prefer to get there by human powered means, I'm a regionalist, and have been since i was just a kid.

You are the daily driver, sir, not I.

what are you talking about??

I've never rented a car on any vacation and prefer to get there by human powered means, I'm a regionalist, and have been since i was just a kid.

You are the daily driver, sir, not I.


I'm talking about the people you save, Sir Galahad, and any other tourists who are "car-free" and who fly.
So, you are regionilist, until you move across the country, right?
I have a very cheap paid off means of transportation, and am in fact freer than anyone on this board who has any loans.

I had to reread this thread to make sure we were talking about the same things, John, and then I saw you were the sophist who tried using the BATHTUB GAMBIT.

But don't confuse 'cheap' with 'green', remember? It isn't economic freedom we're talking here.



I hope you never get in an accident, lost in the woods on your snowmobile, or need the help of others at anytime, John....


I'm out of here! And in the immortal words of one of my heroes, Kermit the Frog, "It ain't easy being green!"

I had to reread this thread to make sure we were talking about the same things, John, and then I saw you were the sophist who tried using the BATHTUB GAMBIT.

But don't confuse 'cheap' with 'green', remember? It isn't economic freedom we're talking here.



I hope you never get in an accident, lost in the woods on your snowmobile, or need the help of others at anytime, John....


I'm out of here! And in the immortal words of one of my heroes, Kermit the Frog, "It ain't easy being green!"


Hmm, back to being confused about the statistically dangerous bathtub accident.

You've run out of gas yourself , actually.

Sounds like the "examined life" connotes examining someone else's life, then passing arbitrary judgment.

Hey 'pistofferson,

If you ever swing out California-way for a loaded bike tour, drop by Santa Rosa and I'll buy you a beer and we can go crash Bruce Gordon's joint down in Petaluma. Maybe he'll trade some lugs for some Lagunitas and a few jokes or something.

Anyway, back to the tennis match. Have fun!
:beer: Actually, I'll be attending a frame building class in Oregon sometime next year, and I might take some extra time to tour the coast. So...maybe. :)