Please explain the contempt

[Brian]

I've been reading some of these threads, and there seems to be a common theme. Now, I'm all for seeing more people cycling for fun, and more commuters. Doesn't matter what you ride, or why you ride, just so long as you're riding. But please explain this contempt for car owners.

When I return to the US, I'm going to go into the business of producing utility bikes and associated items like large racks and trailers. But I'll still have 2 cars in the driveway and at least 8 bikes in the garage. Does that mean some of you won't buy from me, because I still drive a car?

[Bekologist]

It's not car owners, expat, it's car culture.

It's about traffic, congestion, and quality of life. It's about no blood for oil. It's a disbelief in America's myopic vision of themselves. It's overweight kids with type 2 diabetes sitting in a traffic jam stuffing their face with french fries. It's a disgust at people who drive a car three blocks to the store for a pack of smokes. It's a backlash against the sheer anger and disgust exhibited by drivers towards people choosing human powered transport. And its about greener environmental choices.

It's all those reasons and more. Am I disgusted by car culture and its fume spewing sloth? Yes.

Heck, I own a car, and I hate myself for the sheer wastfulness of it all. I'm a self loathing, (virtually) non-driving, car owner.

[Brian]

It seems silly to me. I work in the transport industry, and our main clients are 2 aluminium smelters. They blast huge holes in the ground, and use giant earth moving machines to remove the raw materials. It's heated in giant crucibles to a molten form, then anodes are dropped in and massive amount of voltage are applied to purify the metal. The ingots, logs, and slabs are then loaded by forklifts onto trucks, and are brought to our yard. We load it into containers, and rail it by electric train to the wharf, where more heavy equipment loads it onto boats that will deliver it around the world. I can't name our customers, but I can assure you that the bike you're riding has at least one or more component on it that came from the ground here. And bikes still have rubber tyres. Sure, it's not as wasteful as a car, but the environmental impact is there.

Food for thought.

[Bekologist]

There's a concept called 'environmental footprint' I'm sure you are familiar with? There is no way to remove your self from the entropy supply chain, you can only minimize your participation in it.

In any comparision of energy costs associated with the production of a personal automobile versus the energy costs associated with manufacturing a bicycle there would seem to be a quantifiable difference.

Then, the energy costs associated with the operation of the vehicle...


Now, add in social, environmental and quality of life cost differences - the disdain for car culture seems merited; socially imperative if one takes it to the extreme.

[BeTheChange]

It seems silly to me. I work in the transport industry, and our main clients are 2 aluminium smelters. They blast huge holes in the ground, and use giant earth moving machines to remove the raw materials. It's heated in giant crucibles to a molten form, then anodes are dropped in and massive amount of voltage are applied to purify the metal. The ingots, logs, and slabs are then loaded by forklifts onto trucks, and are brought to our yard. We load it into containers, and rail it by electric train to the wharf, where more heavy equipment loads it onto boats that will deliver it around the world. I can't name our customers, but I can assure you that the bike you're riding has at least one or more component on it that came from the ground here. And bikes still have rubber tyres. Sure, it's not as wasteful as a car, but the environmental impact is there.

Food for thought.

Very good point! I've thought about this a lot. Refining aluminum takes 1/6 of the world's electricity. There is no way to have absolutely no environmental impact if you live. I've just tried to minamize as much as possible and try to work toward a more sustainable society. I can't speak for anyone else but it is wastefullness that is the irritating part of our society. And when you get in a box to sleep (your home), then move yourself to another box(your job) in a box (your car) it can distance you from society. I think the contempt really stems from the motorists almost killing us and being openly hostile because of their anoniminity because they are in a car that they own so they feel safe to do whatever they want. Some car-free feel they are helping society (as I do, even though I'm just car-lite) so this hostility toward us is then resented. I don't think most motorsits think "hey, by that cyclist not driving they are not using gas and reducing demand for it, therefor they are lowering prices for me." Most likely they think "what does this guy think he's doing on MY road?"

What I have described is the reactions of any minority before it has been accepted by society. Some people express themselves with contempt toward the majority. The industrail revolution has given emense power to the common man that has never been seen throughout history. Now (surprise surprise) when anyone can have great power without it being necessary to think about their actions to survive they can act like jerks. That's part of why some people resent the car culture. But, since oil production will peak in our lifetime (in almost all expert's estimates) I think the healthiest thing for anti-car advocates can do is just be happy with what they are doing and enjoy the many benefits of biking instead. Just my horribly written and organized thoughts (ADD makes for some jumbled writing; sorry about that).

[Brian]

The quality of life bit interests me. I was thinking about that on the way home. In SoCal, I had 3 cars - a 4WD for playtime, a toy-racer for getting to work on the weekends in Malibu, and a slightly more grown up and comfortable compact SUV for daily use. Over here, I have a single car. My wife doesn't drive. Lack of car severely limits our income potential over here. My wife is limited as to where she can work, due to lack of transportation. I could have gotten a lower paying job in town, but by virtue of being able to travel, I have earned an income that allows us to live in relative comfort with 3 kids in the house. We would not have been able to afford the $15k or so worth of bikes we've bought/built in the last year, were it not for my commute. Sure, my side business helped, but it's the steady pay that's made the difference. Weather permitting, I can commute to my current work location a few days a week. But in my case, the car makes the difference in our lifestyle.

[Bekologist]

we're all very happy for you.

[BeTheChange]

Many places have been set up on the premice of incredibly cheap energy. So many places everything is set up around a car. I wouldn't worry too much. Do what makes you happy because the cheap energy culture will be just a drop in the man to history. I just hope that there will still be scientists (like me :)) when the oil runs out and we can somehow keep a pretty good quality of life. Things may change but that's OK. I hate the car culture, but I don't hate the people because most just don't know there is any problem. Just do what make you happy expatriate.

[Brian]

we're all very happy for you.

You forgot the [SARCASM] tags. I'm not a slave to my car. I paid cash for it, and due to my good driving record, insurance is $30/month. Petrol cost about $20-30/week. Rego was $300. So it costs me roughly $150 a month. That's about what we pay for electricity here. And we still use our bikes on weekends for light grocery shopping and coffee runs. But I guess I'm the bad guy for owning a car at all.

[Bekologist]

when i reread your post i saw the lack of a second car affected you family income, but i didn't want to redact a succinct post.

It's all a trade off in what you believe versus what you are willing to put up with, expat. your family sound all right off. Got 15,000 worth of bikes that need hauling, right?

You shouldn't self identify yourself as an evil car owner unless you're suffering from a guilty conscience. Which is what a lot of your rationalizations sound like.

[pedex]

Probably goes w/o saying but im gonna say it anyway........every man woman and child on the planet cannot live the typical american or english speaking country's typical car centric life or lifestyle.........its not physically possible. Having said that and then realizing that the world is rapidly approaching a point where this is becoming very much an issue and we've likely already gone way past the point of no return with respect to permanent environmental damage and resource depletion due to this type of life, why not make changes? If its possible to do so on a personal basis and community level, it is the responsible thing to do. At some point everyone will have to make sacrifices, voluntary one's are often easier.

Having said all that, I dont hate cars or car drivers, but I do find that many of them are clueless and irresponsible with their attitude and serious lack of any consideration to their own impact on the world. That does piss me off to no end. Can one person make a difference, sure, a very small one, but every little bit helps doesnt it?

We as humans and animals share the same traits as all other animals, we will destroy ourselves by overconsuming, even knowingly. That doesnt mean everyone has to have this same attitude though, I for one do believe there is hope, and I have and will continue to make sacrifices towards that end, even if it may be a futile attempt, couldnt live with myself any other way. Its only natural to have some disdain for someone when you see them drive 1/2 mile for a basic errand isnt it? Or commute a couple miles for work using a car, or any other traveling that could be done much cheaper and responsibly.

[MediaCreations]

So it costs me roughly $150 a month. That's about what we pay for electricity here.

What? You use electricity? Have you no respect for the environment?

[Mtn Mike]

It's not car owners, expat, it's car culture.

It's about traffic, congestion, and quality of life. It's about no blood for oil. It's a disbelief in America's myopic vision of themselves. It's overweight kids with type 2 diabetes sitting in a traffic jam stuffing their face with french fries. It's a disgust at people who drive a car three blocks to the store for a pack of smokes. It's a backlash against the sheer anger and disgust exhibited by drivers towards people choosing human powered transport. And its about greener environmental choices.

It's all those reasons and more. Am I disgusted by car culture and its fume spewing sloth? Yes.

Heck, I own a car, and I hate myself for the sheer wastfulness of it all. I'm a self loathing, (virtually) non-driving, car owner.

Yep, that about sums it up.

[Brian]

when i reread your post i saw the lack of a second car affected you family income, but i didn't want to redact a succinct post.

It's all a trade off in what you believe versus what you are willing to put up with, expat. your family sound all right off. Got 15,000 worth of bikes that need hauling, right?

You shouldn't self identify yourself as an evil car owner unless you're suffering from a guilty conscience. Which is what a lot of your rationalizations sound like.

Guilt free, and non-apologetic.

Perhaps I'm a bit too idealistic, but I've got ideas that I want to see embraced by more consumers. It's a total waste trying to push things here, but I've got hope for the US. Our new house will have some way to capture solar energy. We'll have a worm farm for recycling food scraps. A compost bin. A water tank to capture rainwater for our organic garden. I've done my research on this, and come to the conclusion that my family can lessen our environmental impact. Perhaps I will be seen as a hypocrite, doing all this plus promoting utility cycling, yet still owning a 4WD to haul my motorcycles. So be it. I'll sleep well at night no matter what.

[becnal]

Every life form on the planet has an environmental impact.

And besides, this is the "Living Car Free" forum. Perfectly fine to deride cars here. This is one of the few places where we can do so unabashedly.

[Brian]

What? You use electricity? Have you no respect for the environment?

Our 1920's miner cottage never had any provisions for a water heater, so we have the instantaneous kind. Great for tea at the office, but it costs well over $100/month to heat water for showers. Stooopid Energy Australia!


Lance - point well taken.

[Placid Casual]

I've been reading some of these threads, and there seems to be a common theme. Now, I'm all for seeing more people cycling for fun, and more commuters. Doesn't matter what you ride, or why you ride, just so long as you're riding. But please explain this contempt for car owners.

1) The zealousness of the newly converted.

2) The super-duper zealousness of the newly converted former sinner.

[Autokat]

If you want to have cars go for it I'm sure no one on here will get bent out of shape about it .It's just that some people want to see change and not having a car is a good way to start ,I mean if it makes one person think about the damage that is being done by the automotive industry it's a start .You would need to have a car in Newcastle that's for sure , the place used to be the steel capital of Australia and it's gone downhill since the 60's My father was a foreman at the steel works and now he can see the damage that has been done ( and he's 71 ) so there is hope yet . I have family that lives in Sydney and nearly all of the people there have no respect or don't want to know about bicycles .
The car scene down that way is the biggest in Australia that's why you don't find many people who want to commute ,I don't know why if they were smart they would when I was there last it took me 45 minutes to drive 15 km the place is a joke .

You should have moved to Queensland , fuel is cheaper , so is housing ,food ,electric , gas and more laid back .And they are trying to be more environmentally sound up here , they are building a bikeway that starts at Noosa ( sunshine coast ) to Sydney .They have it built from the Gold coast to Coffs harbour ( about 250-300 km ) they should have Brisbane to the Gold caost done soon and Noosa to Brisbane is under construction . It should all be built by 2008 well that's what they say anyway .Hopefully that may change some attitudes here in Australia .

[Brian]

I wouldn't mind living in QLD. I've been to Cairns and all the local touristy places around there. Stayed in Yorkey's Knob, which was quiet and out of the way. But the missus is a Novocastrian, so that's where I ended up. And yes, you need a car here. Maybe not for every day use, but there would be no way for me to get to work without one.

Before anyone jumps on that last comment, understand that I do ride to work when I can. But when the winds are 100Km/h, or it's pissing down rain, I'm not going to ride along a link road where the speed limit is 90. I've already worked out an alternate route for parts of my commute, but there's no other options for 2 bad stretches. And then when I arrive, I have to deal with trucks, forklifts, and trains.

I suppose I'll only dabble, and will never be a full convert. Still no guilt, no apology.

[Bekologist]

Maybe once you move to the american West and invent a bicycle utility trailer you can haul your motorcycles with!

Living with a 'Utility bike' ethic, as opposed to just owning a utility bike, would generally preclude a lot of 4WD vehicle use to haul motorcycles, yes.

Hauling motorcycles for recreation is something most 'utility cyclists' don't even have to deal with, I'd imagine.

A certain hypocracy would be exhibited by a self identified 'utility biker' taking lots of trips with his 4WD. If you want to 'self identify' as a person belonging to a group you only aspire to emulate, that's self delusional.

The people in the town you live in might question your ethics if your 4WD is plastered with 'human powered transport ' advertisments. And bike shops might question your message if your travelling salestruck is a Hummer with HPV bumper stickers.

If you just wanted to make a buck without actually using your products regularily, you could capitalize on designs emulating from somewhere other than genuine utility.

does that make sense? No apology needed.

[patc]

I've been reading some of these threads, and there seems to be a common theme. Now, I'm all for seeing more people cycling for fun, and more commuters. Doesn't matter what you ride, or why you ride, just so long as you're riding. But please explain this contempt for car owners.

Contempt because they have allowed themselves to become dependent on a car... but it goes beyond that for me. I hate the selfishness a personal-use car represents. That means the owner is willing to poison the air, use up diminishing resources, and cover the landscape in pavement just so he/she can drive around.

We've gone from few or no smog-warning days to about 30 last summer. Every remaining green space in my neighbourhood is being removed for "transportation corridors". All because some people care more about themselves than those around them. The only good news is that I live in a city willing to work on the problem of car-use in urban centres. Unfortunately they are not addressing the real problem: selfish people.

[budster]

Contempt because they have allowed themselves to become dependent on a car... but it goes beyond that for me. I hate the selfishness a personal-use car represents. That means the owner is willing to poison the air, use up diminishing resources, and cover the landscape in pavement just so he/she can drive around.

We've gone from few or no smog-warning days to about 30 last summer. Every remaining green space in my neighbourhood is being removed for "transportation corridors". All because some people care more about themselves than those around them. The only good news is that I live in a city willing to work on the problem of car-use in urban centres. Unfortunately they are not addressing the real problem: selfish people.
You said it well, as did Bekologist in his first reply.

The number of "orange" air quality days in Charlotte has quadrupled over the last 20 years. The number of incredibly fat people has done the same. I don't hate people who drive cars (I drive sometimes, too). I hate having to drive to many of the places I want to go, and having to apologize/explain my eccentricity if I don't drive.

I believe in the power of the bicycle to cure a lot of what ails us, and I find the biggest obstacles to convincing others to bike are: 1) the behavior of many car drivers; and (more especially) 2) a transportation system set up solely to accomodate cars.

And yeah, I resent the hell out of that second one.

[patc]

I believe in the power of the bicycle to cure a lot of what ails us, and I find the biggest obstacles to convincing others to bike are: 1) the behavior of many car drivers; and (more especially) 2) a transportation system set up solely to accomodate cars.

And yeah, I resent the hell out of that second one.

What gets to me: Ottawa, like many other North American cities, had a perfectly good light rail system until the late 50's/early 60's which they tore out!. Then, in the 80's, they realised the "oops" and started taking public transit seriously, but went with buses. Now, 50 years after removing the last street car, we are spending big $$ building a light rail system. Hello, does no one think about the long term? :mad:

Also like many other cities, we (and the former municipalities now amalgamted into Ottawa) allowed massive sub-urban developments in the 80's and 90's. Again the clue arrived to late: we now have an "in-build or don't build" policiy, but we are stuck providing city services to all sorts of places outside the core.

[nathank]

What gets to me: Ottawa, like many other North American cities, had a perfectly good light rail system until the late 50's/early 60's which they tore out!. Then, in the 80's, they realised the "oops" and started taking public transit seriously, but went with buses. Now, 50 years after removing the last street car, we are spending big $$ building a light rail system. Hello, does no one think about the long term? :mad:
you guys probably mostly all know this already, but...

General Motors and a tire company (Firestone i think) and an oil company were found GUILTY in US Court for conspiracy for exactly this:
they indirectly bought the trolley systems in vairous cities (Portland, Sanfrancisco + others) and replaced them with busses = tore up or paved over the tracks == more vehicles to sell, more tires and more oil! they were found guilty in court and had to pay some penalty but the damage was already done!

not sure if the same thing happened in canada, but very likely.

[nathank]

i agree with most of the posts here...

i could drive a huge massive gas-guzzling car all over the place - actually i used to as i grew up in auto-centric Texas -- and waste and pollute and use whatever i want - because i'm American and i can afford it and i could use my car to demonstrate to others how bad-ass and rich and successful i am, but why? i just don't need that and it's just selfish and materialistic anyway. 99% of the time i get more enjoyment out of biking than driving (especially in traffic which these days is basically ALWAYS) so why should i drive to conform and prove my social status? i don't need to do that (i am happy biking and thereby reducing stress, improving my fitness AND reducing my environmental and social impact and danger to others... and at the same time having fun!)

i don't hate cars and cars can have their uses (i am currently again car-lite) BUT our car-centered culture is REALLY a problem. an example: in American most parents are overprotective of their kids and allow them virtually no freedoms for fear of kipnapping or accidents or whatever, and don't allow them to play with this or that toy b/c in some case some kid could injure himself, restrict TV and films and whatnot and protect their kids from "all dangers" and move to the "right neighboorhood", etc etc. then they think they are "protecting" their kids be driving them everywhere instead of letting them walk or bike b/c that is DANGEROUS, thereby exposing the kids to the greatest danger in our society: motor vehicle crashes. AND setting their kids up for a life of inactvitiy, obesity and auto-dependence! and these parents REALLY believe they are doing all they can for their kids!! and they never see it and may never see it even after their kids are sick, dead or in the hospital --- they are blinded by our auto-centric culture where it is simply accepted as "the price of progress" that thousands of americans die every year in auto accidents...

and sure, then parents lobby for a new stop light or better child seats or whatever, but how few actually deal with the problem: removing high-speed deadly vehicles from the environment where their kids are? so kids could walk or bike to school? and then when that case comes up where some idiot mows down a pedestrian or cyclist and says "i just didn't see him" it is accepted as a valid "excuse" -- i.e. "the cost of progress"

anyway, just one example.

the other big factor also has to do with CONSUMERISM. driving is cool and a "tough" "rugged" "cool" SUV makes you popular and whatnot. we are flooded with these images and the auto is presented as THE tool to gain freedom --- the "freedom" to become car-dependent and pay lots of money for a late-model car (b/c only a loser drive an old beater), repairs, insurance, gas etc.; spend hours per day sitting in traffic; get no exercise b/c walking and biking are for the "poor and underpriviledged" and at the same time pollute the planet and endanger the lives of other!!! "because it's cool" ---- unfortunately this advertising affects our society greatly. most Americans consider a person who doesn't own a car to be some how not right - either poor or weird or whatever. why? and most "happyily" becomes slaves to their cars spending a LARGE percentage or their income on a car.

[to be read in tone of classic American Libertarian] and then there's the amount of MY TAX MONEY that goes to subsidize this social and environment killer -- through "oil wars" and freeway interchange construction and whatnot...
[and back to my voice]i'm not saying NO money should be spent on roads and tranportation, but the one-sided of the auto-infrastructure is ridiculous. or places like where my sister used to live 500ft from a mall but had to walk over a mile to get there as it was separated by a freeway - huh? auto-centric!!

anyway, the reasons go on. unfortunately most of these problems are both a) entrenched and b) backed by lots of $$$$$ and "sensible" alternatives like riding a bike or re-designing a community for walking and biking instead of motoring do not offer much of anyone the potential to make a buck...

thus, there these things are virtually "invisible" or people don't believe it when someone points it out (that just can't be true!!) and virtually no one is doing anything to change things (except for the thousand of people who are earning big bucks are doing all they can to KEEP things as they are!)

as a result i attempt to do what i can to not make it any worse: i am now car-lite and i only drive in the city if it is ABSOLUTLEY necessary (i.e. transporting large stuff or an elderly person or whatever) and i try to do what i can to improve conditions for walking and biking (actually i currently live in Germany so that parts pretty easy at the moment :))

[patc]

you guys probably mostly all know this already, but...

General Motors and a tire company (Firestone i think) and an oil company were found GUILTY in US Court for conspiracy for exactly this:
they indirectly bought the trolley systems in vairous cities (Portland, Sanfrancisco + others) and replaced them with busses = tore up or paved over the tracks == more vehicles to sell, more tires and more oil! they were found guilty in court and had to pay some penalty but the damage was already done!

not sure if the same thing happened in canada, but very likely.

Yes, I was aware of that. I don't know of any specific/known instance in Canada, but certainly the mindset was present, whether or not conspiracies existed. Also present was a mindset that public transit was for the poor/elderly/second class, and we are barely starting to get over that now.

[Brian]

[snip] A certain hypocracy would be exhibited by a self identified 'utility biker' taking lots of trips with his 4WD. If you want to 'self identify' as a person belonging to a group you only aspire to emulate, that's self delusional.[snip]

I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. I enjoy all sorts of outdoor sports. Not just mountain biking, but motorcycle riding as well, and have owned several 4WDs. I did not drive a 5000lb Toyota Landcruiser as my everyday vehicle. Never mind fuel prices and environmental concerns - it would have been highly impractical. This vehicle was highly modified for off-road use. Purpose built from the ground up for going places not accessible to your average 4WD or Starbucks parking lot SUV.

I'll probably haul my utility bikes in a trailer behind our car, not lug them around in a 4WD. But I'm not sure where they'd be delivered to anyway, so it's hardly an issue right now. The thing is, I'm pretty keen to use my bike more and more when practical, and my wife is too.


i could drive a huge massive gas-guzzling car all over the place - actually i used to as i grew up in auto-centric Texas because i'm American and i can afford it and i could use my car to demonstrate to others how bad-ass and rich and successful i am, but why? so why should i drive to conform and prove my social status? [snip] blah blah blah


Now that's the kind of logic I don't get. I never used my car to identify with the size of my ego, genitals, or wallet. As I stated above, my 4WD was built for off-road. I saw no sense in driving daily. I worked weekends as a photographer for 6 months out of the year in Malibu. I'm sure PatC will agree that it's not easy to transport photo gear by bicycle. Certainly not through the mountain roads of Malibu. For that, I drove an economical, yet twisty road friendly Honda Civic. Carried all my gear, and I had to fill it up about once a month. The rest of the time, I drove a new RAV4. The girly-size SUV. Room for my girlfriend's kids, or our dogs, or all my studio gear. AWD for trips to the snow. Yakima racks on the roof for weekend getaways in Cambria.

I guess my point is that I don't identify myself as someone that sees my car as a status symbol, but rather someone that views them as another tool to get a specific job done. I do the same with my bikes - one for each task or type of riding.

[Brad M]

What gets to me: Ottawa, like many other North American cities, had a perfectly good light rail system until the late 50's/early 60's which they tore out!. Then, in the 80's, they realised the "oops" and started taking public transit seriously, but went with buses. Now, 50 years after removing the last street car, we are spending big $$ building a light rail system. Hello, does no one think about the long term? :mad:

Also like many other cities, we (and the former municipalities now amalgamted into Ottawa) allowed massive sub-urban developments in the 80's and 90's. Again the clue arrived to late: we now have an "in-build or don't build" policiy, but we are stuck providing city services to all sorts of places outside the core.
Ditto in Hamilton. We had streetcars from 1874 to 1951. They were originally horsedrawn before converting to electricity. It was also in the fifties when all of our downtown streets converted to one-way traffic, which was basically the beginning of the end for the core.

Suburbia isn't showing any signs of slowing down here. City council pays no attention to their "master plans" for smart growth. Greenfield development still runs rampant. I cringe every time I pass the newest sprawl dvelopment and "power centre" shopping disaster. Our pub transit is going to have to service these areas, most likely without any additonal funding aside from a fare increase. No sign of a return to rail anywhere within the city, but hopefully they increase GO train service to Toronto.

There's a bit of hope on the horizon. Only a week ago two of the aforementioned one-way streets was converted back to two-way, much to the dismay of the drivers used to having freeways running through the city. Parts of the streets had been converted a few years ago, and nothing but good news has become of it. The previously run-down part of town is now blooming with businesses and art galleries.

[Thor29]

A lot of people are car free because they see the big picture and want to minimize the harm that they do. Unfortunately, a lot of people (most people) in a capitalistic society only consider what they as an individual want. And often, each individual decision, on its own, wouldn't be that big of a deal. One car by itself doesn't do too much damage. But multiply them by hundreds of thousands and you've got carmageddon.

Could every person on the planet have a 4WD for fun and giggles, a car for hauling stuff, a couple of motorcycles, 15 bikes, etc.? No. The planet simply can't support that much fun for everyone. Feel guilty about it or not, that is simply the truth.

[attercoppe]

Having said all that, I dont hate cars or car drivers, but I do find that many of them are clueless and irresponsible with their attitude and serious lack of any consideration to their own impact on the world.

Pedex brings up a good point, coming close to my personal views. People in general just seem (to me) to be ignorant of their impact, whether it be driving, shopping at the megamart, not recycling - pick your cause. The comments here are skewed towards anti-car sentiment because you're on the Bike Forums. If you were to go over to the Recycling Forums, they would rant more about all the trash people produce and send straight to the landfill, and overpackaged products, and not composting. If you were to go over to ihategigantocorp.com, they'll be bemoaning the death of the mom and pop store, and lambasting people who support big businesses, and preaching to the choir about how low cost goods actually cost us all more. Too many people just don't think about their actions and their effects, and even if it's brought to their attention, they're too lazy/comfortable to change. People will do whatever they want to do. You will continue to drive, because that's what you want to do. You don't want to drastically change the life that you and your family are comfortable with just to avoid ever driving. That's ok - you recognize the impact your driving has, you try to limit it, and you want to counteract it by building a sustainable home. That's much further than most people are willing to go.

At the risk of being flamed, I'll also say this: I would not be at all surprised if many car-free folks on here are car-free or first became car-free either as a choice due to economic necessity, or not by their choice at all. I know I'm in that first category. After moving, I took a job that paid much less than my previous one, and my rent is quite a bit higher, since I now live alone rather than sharing a place. Currently, I really can't afford to have my vehicle inspected and licensed, much less buy gas all the time (even at today's rates, never mind $3+/gal from a few months ago). This is part, perhaps most, of the reason I picked up biking again. I'm glad it happened; I'm healthier, happier, and more aware of my part in the grand ecological scheme of things. It took being forced to step away from the car culture for me to be able to see it clearly. I don't refuse to drive or ride in a car, I still own mine and will eventually get it "legal" and probably use it occasionally. But I will do so more aware than ever before of the impact I'm having by doing so, and I will severely limit that impact.

[Bekologist]

some food for thought:

Around these parts, the biggest contributor to pollution throughout Puget Sound: the family car.

"Green" Seattlites can have a chicken coop in their backyard, live in a house built with reclaimed materials, use rain buckets, have solar panels, and as soon as they step into their Toyota LandCruisers to go to the local bike advocacy meeting they become a collective member of the largest polluting group in Puget Sound.

Like I posted earlier, we all have an environmental footprint, so some pollution is undeniable. And it is very easy for Seattlites to justify their car use. That doesn't make driving a personal car any less harmful to the region.

My friend Linda is an example of Seattle's 'green hiprocracy' movement.

She likes organic food. She doesn't own a clothes dryer. She keeps her thermostat low. She's also an avid biker. She recently spent 6 months as a cyclotourist in France.

However, she drives her car all over Seattle like she was a little old lady from pasadena with a gashuffing addiction. Just this week she was justifying to me how she drove her car three miles to the movie theater, because she figured she'd pick up a loaf of bread at the same time. Her car is an 80's gas sipping Honda, so she doesn't pay much at the pump, but still pollutes quite a bit with it.
Linda's less green than she thinks and emblematic of how myopic Americans have become about their personal automobile use.

[tacomee]

I've been reading some of these threads, and there seems to be a common theme. Now, I'm all for seeing more people cycling for fun, and more commuters. Doesn't matter what you ride, or why you ride, just so long as you're riding. But please explain this contempt for car owners.

When I return to the US, I'm going to go into the business of producing utility bikes and associated items like large racks and trailers. But I'll still have 2 cars in the driveway and at least 8 bikes in the garage. Does that mean some of you won't buy from me, because I still drive a car?


Ah, first off, what the heck do you THINK you know about utility bikes or trailers? And why would anybody buy one from you? Most cycling meccas in the USA already have top shelf utility bike builders who, get this, ride the bikes they produce everywhere. They really know what works because they live bike centered lifestyles. Now, if you were going to buy a utility bike, who are going to buy from? Not some dumbass who likes owning a SUV.

Currently you're on a *car free* internet board picking fights with the future customers of a business you're planning to start. Jeeze dude, who cares WTF you happen to think about bikes or cars or anything? You're just too plain stupid to talk with.

Yeah, go ahead and keep driving-- but stay out of the utility bike business, because quite frankly, you don't know sh** about it.

[cooker]

Only a week ago two of the aforementioned one-way streets was converted back to two-way, much to the dismay of the drivers used to having freeways running through the city.
That's great news. Baby steps, Bob!

[lala]

I do feel a certain amount of contempt for those who indulge in conspicuous consumption whether in the name of recreation, or other reasons.

edit: good points, bekologist.

[jamesdenver]

i like cars for road trips/camping trips to remote wyoming/colorado, and places off the beaten path (same reason i have my pilots certs)

i HATE cars in the city, and wish we could weed more out through better transit and pedestrian facilities.

[nathank]

i like cars for road trips/camping trips to remote wyoming/colorado, and places off the beaten path (same reason i have my pilots certs)

i HATE cars in the city, and wish we could weed more out through better transit and pedestrian facilities.
that's about how i fell too. cars are just no efficient in the city -- too much space for parking, streets, etc. and they destroy the "social environment" - not to mention traffic and pollution and the danger to pedestrians.

[Brian]

Ah, first off, what the heck do you THINK you know about utility bikes or trailers? And why would anybody buy one from you? Most cycling meccas in the USA already have top shelf utility bike builders who, get this, ride the bikes they produce everywhere. They really know what works because they live bike centered lifestyles. Now, if you were going to buy a utility bike, who are going to buy from? Not some dumbass who likes owning a SUV.

Currently you're on a *car free* internet board picking fights with the future customers of a business you're planning to start. Jeeze dude, who cares WTF you happen to think about bikes or cars or anything? You're just too plain stupid to talk with.

Yeah, go ahead and keep driving-- but stay out of the utility bike business, because quite frankly, you don't know sh** about it.


Thank you for that insightful assessment of my bike knowledge and business acumen. But I don't think my target customer would be ignorant morons like you. Please, do us all an electricity-saving favor, and go stick your head in a gas oven. You need to relax, so take several deep breaths.

[randya]

Perhaps I'm a bit too idealistic, but I've got ideas that I want to see embraced by more consumers. It's a total waste trying to push things here, but I've got hope for the US. Our new house will have some way to capture solar energy. We'll have a worm farm for recycling food scraps. A compost bin. A water tank to capture rainwater for our organic garden. I've done my research on this, and come to the conclusion that my family can lessen our environmental impact.
Unfortunately, 95+ percent of Americans don't think like this, and IMO it won't become commonplace in America in my lifetime without dramatic sweeping social changes, whatever drives them...

[becnal]

I guess my point is that I don't identify myself as someone that sees my car as a status symbol, but rather someone that views them as another tool to get a specific job done.

Ok, but so then why is this whole thread in the living car free forum???

[Brian]

Ok, but so then why is this whole thread in the living car free forum???

Scroll to the top of the page, and read the thread title.

[Roody]

expat--First, you did not deserve the really rude flame you got from one member. That was sickening.

A lot of us do have a philosophical contempt toward cars and car culture. Few want to see cars totally eliminated, but most would like to see their use strictly curtailed.I don't think we hate car owners, although we do feel sorry for them as they seem to be slaves of their own technology. I agree with you that cars can be great tools; most often they are our masters, and we don't like that.

Others have told you about reasons for disliking cars, but not much mention was made of what I feel is one of their most damaging powers. That is the way they have changed the design of our cities. Modern cities consist of rotten cores surrounded by the endless expanse of the suburban wasteland. First the richer people got in their cars and abandoned the center cities, then the jobs followed, leaving behind blight and poverty. We no longer live in communities. We live isolated on ugly 1/4 acre plots, miles away from our jobs, schools and recreation. Bus and train travel are inconvenient, Cycling is difficult and walking is nearly impossible in most of America. We even drive 15 miles to go to a gym to get some exercise! None of this nightmarish city design would have been possible wothout our favorite tool and master, the private automobile.

[Bekologist]

If anyone is looking for a step back in time to what community would be like devoid of ALL cars, I strongly encourage a a trip to Mackinac Island in Lake Michigan and relax for a few days. It truly is a paradise lost, if only the damn fudge didn't cost so much!!!

[Brian]

expat--First, you did not deserve the really rude flame you got from one member. That was sickening.

Thanks Roody. I'm a big boy, and I wasn't exactly hurt by his comments. If someone educated insults me, there may be a bit of a sting to it, but ignorance is like being pelted with a cotton ball.

If I really wanted to start an argument, I'd do a poll to find out how many are car free by choice, without any financial reasons attached. To make $70k/year and forgo a car seems rather noble when compared to the person who can't afford the car anyway. That is not meant to be an insult to anyone. If anything, it's just worded badly.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

If anyone is looking for a step back in time to what community would be like devoid of ALL cars, I strongly encourage a a trip to Mackinac Island in Lake Michigan and relax for a few days. It truly is a paradise lost, if only the damn fudge didn't cost so much!!!
How does the fudge get there? How should anyone get there?
How much will the fudge cost when the ingredients are delivered by horse, bicycle or foot?

[KrisPistofferson]

I think this is an interesting thread. I have been proudly car-free for over 5 years now, and I've gotten to the point where I never even miss them. Like Expat, I am working on starting a cycling-related business, I agree with many of the points made about the impact of "car culture"....but I make a living as an auto mechanic. Should I feel like a complete sellout, because some have adopted a fundamentalist, anti-car system of dogma?

[cooker]

How does the fudge get there? How should anyone get there?
How much will the fudge cost when the ingredients are delivered by horse, bicycle or foot?

I don't know, but I guess we're about to find out. People like the Chippewa/Ojibway lived on Mackinac Island in the past and supported themselves with a local economy, and white settlers lived in Northen Michigan long before cars were invented - in fact Sault Ste Marie, Michigan (http://www.saultstemarie.com/), not far from Mackinac Island, is something like the third oldest (European settled) city in the USA.

One of the problems with a heavily subsidized transportation system is that local production of basic commodities gets undermined by goods produced at a distance and transported in bulk. People have lost the habit and skill of growing their own food locally or putting up preserves, because they can get Florida oranges or Chilean apples year round. As fuel gets expensive, we'll pay a higher price for goods transported over a long distance, and we'll see a return to more local production, not just of food, but of many day-to-day items.

[Bekologist]

Now we are dwelving further and further into the nuance and inevitability of dealing with automobiles in our culture. To I like to bike, don't piss in the campfire so much- Mackinac Island is one of the few places in America there are NO private automobiles so everyone uses horses, bikes or walks. But yes, most people drive to the ferry terminal and yes, the sugar for the fudge is imported, very astute of you to point out the realities of a global economy.

Yes, Kris, I think you should feel like a partial sellout if you believe strongly in a car free lifestyle. That doesn't mean its wrong for you to work in the auto industry, and expat, wanting to play on motorcycles and ride around on gas powered playthings is okay if you personally want to. BUT THESE DON'T MESH WITH YOUR SELF DESCRIBED BELIEF SYSTEMS!

It doesn't mesh with the environmental or 'car free' ethic. So, to expat, your hobbies should make you feel a bit guilty if you want to live a green lifestyle, which it sounds like you do. Or are these other lifestyle choices (solar, rain buckets, etc.. ) economic, versus environmental, decisions for you? I think my friend Linda is more 'cheap' than 'green' for example.

The only good 'car free' auto mechanic would be one that monkey wrenches, then proclaims, "this infernal chariot is toast! lets see about getting you a nice bike to ride..." But hey, I've worked as a sellout to my ethical beliefs before, and it SUCKED. But, don't get me wrong, I can like cars, too. I was ogling someones classic Jaguar V-12 roadster yesterday.

Give me an engine I can adjust the valves and monkey with the Strombergs, I like engines and cars in a technical regard, looked as inventions and tools of utility, but independant of their environmental impact.

For people in the Puget Sound area the reality is this, and maybe in many american cities too:
-The biggest contributor to pollution here is the family car.-
Cars are the culprit. It's not power plants. Its not industry. Its people in their cars.

[KrisPistofferson]

Yes, Kris, I think you should feel like a partial sellout if you believe strongly in a car free lifestyle.
Thanks buddy. :rolleyes: And yet my "environmental footprint" remains unchanged from if I worked in the local food co-op, but I remain a "little Eichmann." I don't automatically think that cars are evil, just their over-use. I do what I can for the environment, yet I don't hate on "cagers," it's just a matter of minding my own business instead of being a car-free puritan, which is winning us no friends, in case anyone cares to notice.

[Bekologist]

its just ethics, Kris.

[KrisPistofferson]

its just ethics, Kris.
It's just a matter of recognizing "car culture" for the abstraction it is, not anthropomorphizing blind process, recognizing Ludditism for what it is, a silly, all-or-nothing proposal,(if we can't do it sustainably, then sustainability is not possible.)