Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Keirin Frame Question...

I think this is my first-ever first post - I normally "just" reply
to others. I am curious about why folks here like the keirin
frames and why the NJS parts are so popular.

I have followed keirin builders since the late '70s and also
own a custom Nagasawa road frame. Throughout the '80s and
early 90s, all of my frames were built with NJS approved
lugs, bb shells, and fork crowns. And for as long as I can recall,
NJS parts have been in Campagnolo catalogs and available for
sale (for at least the past 20-25 years).

What caused the current interest in keirin and NJS?
Are you guys riding track or following the circuit in Japan?

Just curious!
e-RICHIE©™®

it's just a fetishization of a very specific (dare i say inarguable?) indicator of quality.

it's just a fetishization of a very specific (dare i say inarguable?) indicator of quality.



thanks.
btw - how "urban" in urban ct are you?
e-RICHIE©™®

I think its more popular now because of the increase in popularity of track bikes. I personally like them because they are quality parts, sure not the lightest of most high tech, but I don't need them to be. I also dig how they look and I'm a believer in japanese craftsmanship, not to say american customs aren't as good.

I wouldn't pay much more for NJS parts over other quality parts or really go out of my way to get them. I'm just as into italian frames and if I ever find a Schwinn track frame in my size I'd pay more than what its worth for it.

I don't think it's so much the NJS stamp for me, it's more the styl, look, and ride of the lugged frames... and the puurty sparkly paint.

for me, Keirin frames are just about the only frames floating around that meet my criteria... steel, hot lugs, short top tubes, come in small sizes, tight geometry, amazingly well built, have a story behind them, and have little superstrong elephants on the seat tube. (ok, it's all about the elephant)

and then i just feel like frames deserve the parts the builder envisioned... the same reason that if i had an italian bike i'd build it with campy.

My primary love for it is the Japanese style of lugwork, which is usually not seen on Italians. Very thinned, long lug points like Long Shen... minimal carving. I'd love to have a Nervex-lugged Paramount, which is pretty much the polar opposite, but for the most part Italian-style lugs (Colnago cutouts, etc) just don't do much for me.

It's not the NJS that does it, but rather the style. My much-heard-about Panasonic NJS frameset has an NJS headset/bottom bracket/crankset, but will most likely see no other NJS parts as I don't fetishize the label. Cool, but not the be-all.

I believe keirin frames "exploded" for a few reasons:

1) Tough, strong, simple frames. They hold up to abuse well, and can do double duty on track and street. The NJS specs also lead one to believe that they can withstand and hold up to crashes, abuse, etc, since they are "made" for that.

2) Aside from getting a custom frame, you can't quite find this aesthetic (particularly lugged) in the US. And with the craftsmanship that goes into making a keirin frame? Not to be found off the shelf.

3) E-FRAMEBANK. I think, at least for people on this forum, that helped a lot of people get a lot of sexy frames from classic Japanese builders into their hands for the price of a Soma or Surly or other easily gotten frame. From there, it was just a matter of "Hey, why not build this up all Japanese?" And thus started the NJS/Japanese fetishism for parts.

4) The "coolness" or "hotttness" factor. Yep, come on - it's a sexy frame/bike. It has appeal and people dig 'em. They have cachet.

5) Back to aesthetics - they're minimal. They appeal to a certain aesthetic. Less is more. Less can hold up better. Less can be beat up. You don't worry about it. Sorta like the whole fixie thing. ;)

What caused the current interest in keirin and NJS?
Are you guys riding track or following the circuit in Japan?


I'd say that for the majority of people it has very little (if anything) to do with either.

1. Keirin frames are (relatively) difficult to come by, thus they carry a certain cache.
2. The current surge of interest comes from a generation that grew up on Robotech, Transformers, Astro Boy, and a host of other cultural products imported from Japan. These products were usually of far superior quality when compared to their domestic couterparts; it's not a stretch to think that one's interest in the products of Japanese cultural production would continue as one grows older and develops new interests.
3. There is a healthy dose of good ol' fashioned fetishizing of the "other" going on. eg, there are quite a few Japanese collectors who are crazy about vintage US guitars and other by-products of american "surf" culture. People tend to be drawn to things that seem exotic and arenot a part of their own cultures. Remember when upper crust Britons would pay millions for a single tulip?
4. The NJS provides reassurance in terms of quality of construction. It is difficult for the layperson to pick up two track frames, look at them side-by-side, and determine which is 'better' in terms of materials and construction. While you might be able to figure out that a Schwinn Paramount is a better bike than a Schwinn Madison, it's a little more difficult to quantify why a Columbus Thron Cinelli Olympic is 'better' than a Columbus Thron DeBernardi (or at least costs twice as much). The NJS stamp, to a certain extent, says "this is a professional quality bicycle made to adhere to exacting standards." Whether you understand the 'exacting standards' or not, that stamp offers assurance of a base level of quality. Bikes of other nationalities, simply because their regulatory bodies don't seem to care about little stamps, cannot offer this kind of assurance unless the person purchasing the bike is familiar with the particulars of the model, builder, marque, company history, etc. Simply put, even if I have never heard of Peleton or 3Rensho or Yanagisawa or whatever, the NJS stamp tells me that the bike is made to a professional standard. If I've never heard of Casati, how can I tell if I'm looking at a top-quality, master-built bike or a club rental built for those just learning?
5. Don't discount the power of the zeitgeist and one-upsmanship. Track bikes are cool. The rarer and more exotic your track bike, the cooler it is.

Given that I don't currently own a keirin frame, nor no I have any interest in actively seeking one out, others may have more to offer to this discussion than I.

m.

I figured it was just because of the insane waitlist on sachs frames.

thanks.
btw - how "urban" in urban ct are you?
e-RICHIE©™®

bridgeport, or as we call it, b-PORT!!!!

bridgeport, or as we call it, b-PORT!!!!


i'm 100km north up rt 95...

5. Don't discount the power of the zeitgeist and one-upsmanship...


honestly, i thought was a key reason.
e-RICHIE©™®

honestly, i thought was a key reason.
e-RICHIE©™®

The popularity of Japanese frames has definitely grown over the last year... it seems that the Italians were really the primary object of desire before. This also seems to be somewhat of a regional thing (although I may be crazy.) Chicago folks seem to love the Italians more than east coast folk, who seem to like keirin frames more. Perhaps some of that is due to availability through T-Town, REload?

The popularity of Japanese frames has definitely grown over the last year... it seems that the Italians were really the primary object of desire before. This also seems to be somewhat of a regional thing (although I may be crazy.) Chicago folks seem to love the Italians more than east coast folk, who seem to like keirin frames more. Perhaps some of that is due to availability through T-Town, REload?

If anything, I think that SF has keirin/NJS down. At least on this forum.

I'm obviously east coast biased ;) There's so many NYC people I know of with frames, plus chimbly with her 3Rensho as well... I always thought of SF as being more agnostic towards frames.

DC isn't really into track frames much at all. Most of what I see is conversions, and there aren't a ton of those. There are 2 Circle A's, a few Spicers, an In The Beginning, a Vanilla, Kevin's and my 3rensho's, a Guercotti... I guess I see a lot of new frames - pistas of course, pista concepts, the cannondale track frame, lots of steamrollers, a couple Kogswells, a few Soma Rush... honestly, though, not a lot of either Italian or Japanese stuff rolling here.

i like the keirin frames for most of the reasons already posted, but the biggest draws for me are the quality and the simplicity.

to me, they look the way a bike should look; clean, simple, lugged, with none of this new-fangled compact geometry or tig-welding or whatever.

they're modern classics.

I wanted to be the first kid on my block with a confirmed kill.

edit: and what mcatano said - esp#2: with me, it was Ultraman, Johnny Socko, and Speed Racer.

i'm 100km north up rt 95...

new london?

I can't believe no one has mentioned the "hipness" of NJS parts/frames.

I can't believe no one has mentioned the "hipness" of NJS parts/frames.

As stated above:


4) The "coolness" or "hotttness" factor. Yep, come on - it's a sexy frame/bike. It has appeal and people dig 'em. They have cachet.

4) The "coolness" or "hotttness" factor. Yep, come on - it's a sexy frame/bike. It has appeal and people dig 'em. They have cachet.
In my mind "hipness" is different that what you posted above.

C'mon, an aluminum cannondale R5000 with full 20 speed durace is "cool" and "hot", but I wouldn't necessarily call it "hip".

Italian was the biz until it got too popular. Shift gears and go east. Otaku meets pista, what's not to love?

Can I get some cold tea over here?

In my mind "hipness" is different that what you posted above.

C'mon, an aluminum cannondale R5000 with full 20 speed durace is "cool" and "hot", but I wouldn't necessarily call it "hip".

A matter of semantics then. I guess by your definition (which I agree with if I had to pick carefully) then, "hip" is trendy and in the moment.

But cool or hot isn't always classy or classic either.

we all know that italian parts are garbage, i mean, c'mon.

C'mon, an aluminum cannondale R5000 with full 20 speed durace is "cool" and "hot",


not on this forum it isn't

not a lot of either Italian or Japanese stuff rolling here.


yah. took pictures of fg/ss's at the operation ceasefire concert. lots of conversions and a few italian track bikes. no keirin.

but I do occasionally see a guy that rides a brakeless 3rensho down 11th street on my way to work. he says he used to ride track before he got fat and slow (his words not mine)

yah. took pictures of fg/ss's at the operation ceasefire concert. lots of conversions and a few italian track bikes. no keirin.

but I do occasionally see a guy that rides a brakeless 3rensho down 11th street on my way to work. he says he used to ride track before he got fat and slow (his words not mine)
That would be Kevin: http://flickr.com/photos/chimblysweep/63216505/in/set-1364949/
he usually works on a Ti Mercx conversion frame. Sadly, word on the street is that he some how cracked the ti frame, so you may be seeing more of the 3rensho.

new london?


chesta'!

Keirin frames are made like old classic steel frames like your frames Rich.

Rich, for me they are like bikes are supposed to be, lugged ,steel, 1 inch steering and handmade.

I had alot of bikes at one time 25 track 3 road and 1 mountain. Now I have 14 track and 1 road( keirin 10, 4-italian, 1 american) .

Steel is real, I like your quality and have been a fan from over the years.


S/F<
CEYA!

That would be Kevin: http://flickr.com/photos/chimblysweep/63216505/in/set-1364949/
he usually works on a Ti Mercx conversion frame. Sadly, word on the street is that he some how cracked the ti frame, so you may be seeing more of the 3rensho.

nope. I know kevin from when I brought that stolen ss in that I found in front of my house. he was the one who ID'ed it and called the owner (who lives 5 doors down from me).

it definitely is not kevin. forgot the guy's name, I've seen him twice. anyway, nice guy, nice bike. he probably, like me, isn't really "on the scene"

Keirin frames are made like old classic steel frames like your frames Rich.

Rich, for me they are like bikes are supposed to be, lugged ,steel, 1 inch steering and handmade.

I had alot of bikes at one time 25 track 3 road and 1 mountain. Now I have 14 track and 1 road( keirin 10, 4-italian, 1 american) .

Steel is real, I like your quality and have been a fan from over the years.


S/F<
CEYA!

Ceya - What mountain bike did you ride? I'm always intrigued to see how someone's sense of taste carries over to that world.

*guesses*

Either a> an old Cinelli, b> Ritchey P-22/23, c> old Bontrager, or d> FAT CITY.

Hehehehe.

*guesses*

Either a> an old Cinelli, b> Ritchey P-22/23, c> old Bontrager, or d> FAT CITY.

Hehehehe.

Yeah, I was gonna guess Fat Chance, Potts, maybe an MB-zip, or one of those old serotta mtbs.

Ceya, your public demands answers!

voodoo maybe

voodoo maybe

Nah, voodoos seem too modern. That seems about as likely as ceya on a kona, and I just can't see that.

(Personally, I love the hell out of that joe murray geometry, though. My red bike's a direct rip-off of it.)

Yeah, I was gonna guess Fat Chance, Potts, maybe an MB-zip, or one of those old serotta mtbs.

Ceya, your public demands answers!

http://i.xanga.com/LiL_kisSes/homer-drool.gif

Gahhh.... MB-Zip. That bike's my unicorn... I've been trying to score one in mint shape for years. I had an MB-2 that got stolen, and I've -always- wanted another. Got my wife a P-22, but not quite the same for me ;)

Sigh.

Gahhh.... MB-Zip. That bike's my unicorn... I've been trying to score one in mint shape for years. I had an MB-2 that got stolen, and I've -always- wanted another. Got my wife a P-22, but not quite the same for me ;)

Sigh.

I seem to recall the MB-zips had a published finite lifespan - weren't they officially only good for a season of racing, or is all the beer and bike shop pot clouding my memory? As cool as the ritcheys were, I never really wanted anything to do with tom ritchey or anything he laid hands on, but I dug the hell out of some of the stuff bontrager and the wtb boys did.

My personal unicorn is a mountain goat whiskeytown racer, in team colors. One day, I tell you. One day.

My personal unicorn is a mountain goat whiskeytown racer, in team colors. One day, I tell you. One day.

i almost made mention in the keirin paint thread, but wasn't quite sure.

i almost made mention in the keirin paint thread, but wasn't quite sure.

I used to work in a shop that sold goats and jack taylors.

Why the hell didn't I take advantage of it?!

Ah, the follies of youth.

(Oh yeah - other unicorn? Jack Taylor curved tube in my size)

The Fat or MB-1 has my vote (the moment I read that, actually, the Bridgestone jumped into my head). The MB-0 was too fragile... also a little too after-the-fact.

me? a toei sportif or herse randonneuse.

this thread is almost more mountain than keirin.

shoot, that's right, we were talking MTBs... in that case, i'd have to say something out of the mind of scot nicol.

shoot, that's right, we were talking MTBs... in that case, i'd have to say something out of the mind of scot nicol.

Man, quit doing that. Now I'm remembering how I felt about the ibis "Mountain Trials" bike. 26" front, 24" back, all cool.

shoot, that's right, we were talking MTBs... in that case, i'd have to say something out of the mind of scot nicol.

scorcher :)

some one want to cue up that derailed train pic, please?
oh wait.. i'll just do it:
http://disaster.almanac.xs2.net/January/Jan_gifs/train.gif

This is the stealthy mountain bike appreciation thread!

Other mtns that were fun: Bontrager Privateer, Ritchey P-23 (yes, I said it again... there was a singlespeed P-23 complete at T-Town for $400, which I'm slapping myself for not picking up) and the first Ti bikes I ever rode... a Merlin and a DEAN.

we all know that italian parts are garbage, i mean, c'mon, I suck ****.


You make me want to punch you.

we all know that italian parts are garbage, i mean, c'mon.

Unload your Campy parts while there's still time! HURRY!

- eyefloater <-- Happy to offer a fair amount for your garbage Campy parts ... because I love you.