All I meant (in case you have a genuine interest)
Some interest other than funnin' you?


was that the subset of modern Portland that existed in the 19th century (before cars showed up) was relatively small.
Mebbe.


This also applies to most U.S. cities.
I think it would be good to watch those generalizations.


In contrast, relatively speaking, a much larger subset of modern Amsterdam (and many other European cities) existed in the 19th century (not to mention the 18th, 17th, 16th and earlier centuries).
Hmmm. I don't get the sense that you are a CPD -- Certified Public Demographer -- so I think you'll just have to excuse me if I take your lessons in urban planning and history with a bit of salt. Certainly, core areas of Amsterdam (been there more than a few times) are quite old and are laid out on those pre-automobile lines, but to imagine that those cities haven't experienced ex/suburban growth since 1900???


Note that the population of Amsterdam (city proper) was about 500,000 in 1900, and is about 740,000 today. But that's just one indicator.
Note that the population of Boston (city proper) was about 560,000 in 1900, and is about 569,000 today. But that's just one indicator.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston/#history


Hey, next time you are there, you should go check out Chocolata on Spuistraat. It'd do you some good :)

This also applies to most U.S. cities.

I think it would be good to watch those generalizations.
...
Note that the population of Boston (city proper) was about 560,000 in 1900, and is about 569,000 today. But that's just one indicator.

Boston is one of the reasons my statement referred to most U.S. cities (not all).
The fact that population growth (or lack thereof) since 1900 is not the only factor that indicates how "car-friendly" a given city is why I stated "But that's just one indicator".

But even so, my impression (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the greater Boston area is much more car-accomodating (high-speed/high-volume roads, reasonable parking, etc.) than is the greater Amsterdam area.


but to imagine that those cities haven't experienced ex/suburban growth since 1900???
Nothing I've said rests on the claim that Amsterdam and other European cities haven't experienced any growth since 1900.

Chocolata, huh? Sounds tasty, but I don't think my wife would approve!

OK guys, you've posted more than your share of flames here, time to stop hijacking the thread, thank you very much.

The May 15th 2003 edition of the Boston Globe had an interesting article on riding in Boston, called "Pedalers' obstacle course". This is no longer available for free on-line however. Premium membership to search their archives is required, sorry 'bout that. However, public libraries may have this in their files. Take a look if interested.

Helmet Head, Boston today is not very car-accomodating, despite the presence of big, high-speed roadways such as Storrow Drive. On most business days, those roads simply turn into long parking lots, packed with frustrated, ready-to-explode drivers. The downtown area is just one big gridlocked situation. Parking, when you can find it, costs quite a bit. Some motorists gamble and double park, or just grab an illegal space. Good luck with this. Boston's Meter Maids are notoriously aggressive, and will materialize from some alternate universe, ticket book in hand. Once they touch pen to paper, it's over.

Boston is a small city. A few miles of riding in any direction will take you to any part of the city. (like Amsterdam) It's mostly flat, (like Amsterdam) save for a few hills such as Beacon Hill, and Dochester's Telegraph hill. Its inner-city roads are mostly narrow, and quite ancient. (like Amsterdam) Going through historical photo books, I find plenty of bicycles in the old, turn-of-the-century photos. Seems that back then, everyone from working class laborers to Boston's high-society people were riding. (Check out the top hats, and handlebar moustaches.) In other words, at one point in history, Boston was indeed a bicycle-friendly city. It could be again, if not for the badly maintained roads, car-congestion and the "massachusetts driver" attitude. (that's another topic.)

How to test this: very simple. Take a ride into Boston very early on a Sunday morning, say prior to 10 AM. Go ahead, right into the downtown financial area. I Have indeed done this, and I am always amazed at the speed and ease of the ride.

I've seen several steel rings fitted in the curbs around the King's Hill and NW 23rd areas.... Are those horse-hitching rings?

Yes, those are horse hitch rings. They were placed in the curb at approximately 50 foot intervals (same width as a 'standard' housing lot) in most of the older neighborhoods throughout the city. When I was employed by the City of Portland, the practice was to replace them when new curbs were installed, if the property owner wanted them replaced. Some are as new as five years old and some date to the nineteenth century. They can be used to lock your bike to If you don't mind it being that close to the curb.

Dogbait

I have to chime in that while a fundamental difference in attitude towards biking accounts for SOME of the reason Europeans bike more, the facilities in place do just that: facilitate biking.

Attitude accounts for the basic fact that people are more liable to get on a bike in the first place, and see it as a legit form of transportation (at least in Sweden, though the same seems true about Germany and certainly Netherlands).

However, virtually all cyclists I see on my commutes use facilities. Here in Uppsala the facilities consist of

1) A lot of cycle parking in the downtown areas, by the river, by the trainstation, everywhere near the Universitiy buildings, etc.

2) Numerous bicycle shops (a sizeable amount for a city of 200,000, which does not sound like much but it is Sweden's 4th largest city).

3) Bikeways are usually one half the sidewalk (clearly marked for bicycles, usually with a directional arrow). Almost always the other half is for pedestrians. Usually they are single way.

4) Bikeways are generally not on streets with high traffic. Occasionally they are not near roads at all.

A few other things. Uppsala is relatively flat, but not entirely so. There are some steeper hills near the city center, but we are not talking about San Francisco here.

Colliding with pedestrians rarely seems to be a problem. At least not for me nor the numerous other people I ride with.

Just based on my personal experience I believe that the bikeways get more people biking, for some are a bit afraid of the roads. I personally prefer the roads since the bikeways can be clogged with people at times, or debris and ice when the snow comes.

Suggesting that bike facilities somehow do not get more people cycling seems a tad odd to me. A basic person's psychology sees facilities as a safe way to bicycle commute. Some people are not going to commute in a vehicular fashion for the same reasons they will not mountain bike; they simply see it as dangerous. But when you have a path devote to just bicycles and the occasional pedestrian, you do not worry about vehicles at all, only your riding skill. Other people lack the skill to navigate heavy vehicular traffic, and would not ride in it.

Suggesting that bike facilities somehow do not get more people cycling seems a tad odd to me.
Not odd at all when the individual(s) who make blanket/generalization about the effects of bike facilities derive their opinions and ideas on the subject either from cherry picking snippets from the Internet and/or interpretations of their own WAGs. Real life experience with different facilities in areas away from their comfort zone of insularity is unnecessary for such cycling chauvinists.

Another thing to bear in mind when comparing to the two cities (and this refers back to the pictures, to the post about theft, and to the post that mentioned the need to make cycling an everyday practice intsead of a some tech'ed out affair): bicycle theft is also a problem in Amtserdam. But instead of buying expensive big locks, most everyone rides an old beater bike (see the pictures). Even the theft is an everyday affair, so no one worries too much, and replacing the old bike with a comparable one is not difficult. (This is informed by two trips to the Netherlands and conversations with locals there.) I take it that the new garage for bicycles is intended, in part, to address this issue and make cycling that much more convenient.

bicycle theft is also a problem in Amtserdam. But instead of buying expensive big locks, most everyone rides an old beater bike (see the pictures).
Only partially correct. Big locks are necessary too on the non racer boy bikes typically used in Amsterdam. SideNote: I find the term "beater bike" a rather derisive term when used by American bicycle enthusiasts to describe practical city bikes used by others, and smacks of snobbery.

Going through historical photo books, I find plenty of bicycles in the old, turn-of-the-century photos. Seems that back then, everyone from working class laborers to Boston's high-society people were riding. (Check out the top hats, and handlebar moustaches.)Does anybody know if handlebar moustaches were a bicycle-inspired fashion?

And which came first (chicken or the egg-type question)-- the handlebar moustache, or the moustache handlebar?

:roflmao: HH is still at it.

Good article, Randya.

The general HH apologist slant I've noticed here is: 'the US is car-centric, that's why this wouldn't work'. Again, don't bother questioning why the US can't see it this way, or trying to see how this attitude to city planning would be more beneficial. No, just prattle on about "America is a car country, so this wouldn't work". Talk about not getting the point.

Well, that's about all of A&S I can stand for a few more months. Off to P&R... at least the trolls there know they're trolls.

I suspect the moustache handlebar came first. Just a guess.

I wouldn't say that the expression "Beater bike" smacks of snobbery, anymore than when car enthusiasts say something such as "I bought this old Chevelle to use as a winter car" smacks of snobbery, but whatever. If you don't live in New England, you may have never heard anyone say this. Sadly, it's just common sense today to ride a bicycle that is not attractive to thieves. This is why so many messengers "put ugly" on their bikes.

In any city in America, a nice road or mountain bike will surely be stolen or vandalized if it is left totally unprotected. So, what gets stolen in Amsterdam? Everything, or only certain types of bikes?

For interested folks: If you have the time and bandwidth, I suggest you check out the Library of Congress website. Here, you can find all kinds of information, and cool, albeit sometimes grainy, photos of what was truly a golden age for cycling in the United states. Start here: http://www.loc.gov/

In any city in America, a nice road or mountain bike will surely be stolen or vandalized if it is left totally unprotected. So, what gets stolen in Amsterdam? Everything, or only certain types of bikes?
Dutch saying: "buy a 20 Guilder bike and a 100 Guilder lock". That answer your question?

Seriously, when you move to Holland you're automatically included in the National Involuntary Bicycle Recycling Program :D

Dutch saying: "buy a 20 Guilder bike and a 100 Guilder lock". That answer your question?

Seriously, when you move to Holland you're automatically included in the National Involuntary Bicycle Recycling Program :D


Or......
"All bikes weigh 35 pounds. If you have a 20 pound bike, you need a 15 pound lock; for a 25 pound bike, a 10 pound lock.... a 35 pound bike needs no lock. :D :D

Dogbait

SideNote: I find the term "beater bike" a rather derisive term when used by American bicycle enthusiasts to describe practical city bikes used by others, and smacks of snobbery.

No offense meant. I proudly ride a beat-up mid-80s Japanese-made Univega Supra Sport as I commute nearly everyday--though only about 3 miles/day. No elitism meant at all! In fact, I personally only know one person who rides anything other than a beater--such are the circles I run/ride in. I don't suppose I'm an enthusiast either, though I ride enthusiastically: I'm a socially motivated, economically necessitated bicycle commuter.

In my post, I was praising the everyday-ness with which Amsterdamers treat cycling.

(regarding the other reply: I don't recall seeing many heaving locks in Amsterdam like I do in NYC, but I may be wrong; it's been a few years.)

No offense meant. I proudly ride a beat-up mid-80s Japanese-made Univega Supra Sport as I commute nearly everyday--though only about 3 miles/day. No elitism meant at all! In fact, I personally only know one person who rides anything other than a beater--such are the circles I run/ride in. I don't suppose I'm an enthusiast either, though I ride enthusiastically: I'm a socially motivated, economically necessitated bicycle commuter.

In my post, I was praising the everyday-ness with which Amsterdamers treat cycling.

(regarding the other reply: I don't recall seeing many heaving locks in Amsterdam like I do in NYC, but I may be wrong; it's been a few years.)
I can see you meant no offense. I just think the term itself carries negative baggage since it has been used repeatedly by others while writing remarks that sneer at lowly cyclists who aren't riding the latest fasionable offerings from the LBS or the latest in messenger chic

My memory of Amsterdam is fading somewhat. I haven't been there since 2002. I remember all kinds of cyclists wearing big heavy looking cable locks.

I've grown weary of arguing in favor of facilities in this forum as one's voice quickly becomes drowned out by the naysayers. But it was my experience in Seattle that the provisions made for cyclists in the form of bike lanes, MUPs, signage, and education made a huge difference in the quality of the cycling experience. It's definitely a chicken and egg argument, do facilities create cyclists or does a critical mass of cyclists demand facilities. Either way most studies show that facilities lead to an increase in cycle commuters, but I'll leave anecdotal refutals of such hard evidence to the wolves.

Also during my recent visit to Amsterdam every bike that I saw was locked with a pretty sturdy lock. Though I had trouble hunting down any bike shops. And out of the thousands of traditional black commuting bikes and unique work bikes I only saw two traditional diamond framed bikes.

-Marcus