New model RFC

[Kogswell]

It's time to order some more FG frames and we're thinking about making a model that will be useful for those who ride on the track.

This is our kickoff Request For Comment.

Tell us what you want.

http://kogswell.com/images/cheapTRACK.jpg

[crust & crumb]

i'll begin-

lugged steel (of course)
actual track geometry (75 parallel, say?)
fork w/ flatcrown and round blades (1 inch threaded)

[Surferbruce]

just please offer a drilled fork option.

[Ceya]

i'll begin-

lugged steel (of course)
actual track geometry (75 parallel, say?)
fork w/ flatcrown and round blades (1 inch threaded)

you beat me to it CC.

I 'll add no oversize tubing.

Seat tube 75/ Head tube 74.

stiffen the bb area for sprint model.

S/F,
CEYA!

[Kogswell]

Super.

lugged steel

Look for TIG.

actual track geometry

So far we have pretty short chainstays. high bottom bracket and 74 parallel.

fork w/ flatcrown and round blades (1 inch threaded)

Hmmm..,.

[Kogswell]

you beat me to it CC.

S/F,
CEYA!

I'll add no oversize tubing

Really... Last time I asked there was no 25.4mm tubing in Taiwan.

Seat tube 75/ Head tube 74

We had to agree on something.

stiffen the bb area for sprint model

Sprint model, eh? I'll have to check with RS first.

[Kogswell]

just please offer a drilled fork option.

Kogswell - The Fork Is The Frame™

Of course. What production builder offers more fork options?

[baxtefer]

i see bottle cage bosses. lose em!

if it's not going to be lugged, then put me down for O/S tubing (sorry CEYA)
straight blade fork?
ship the drilled forks with a colour matched plug to hide the hole. like an acorn nut or something.
no brake drilling on the rear.

more than 2 sizes?

[ultraman6970]

- STEEL

- I would like 74 seat tube and 75 head tube, the bike it will be more easy and fast at handling. More responsive, a 75 even bike will do the frame too hard for the street, So 74 and 75 will do in both worlds.

- Please use 24 mms chain stays and fork blades (both rounded)... the regular road chainstays arent enough for a track because they are flimpsy... tange still is doing those tubes so far today...

- Lugged or not isnt a problem nowadays, whichever will be fine.

- Between 27.5 and 28.5 cms bb hight it will do in both worlds just fine.

- Frame size must be c-t

- Do not add a drill for a rear brake.. the frame it will looks kind'a puaj with that hole there.

- As somebody said, add or sell another fork with the brake drill on it. Somebody would like the bike for racing and a drill in the fork looks kind'a puaj again... (im a classic ex racer ok?)

- DO two models, one for serius track people and other for street people???

- Tubing?.. well any tube Brand will do fine as the frame has the right geometry, but I insist 24 mms rounded chain stays and fork blades is the way to go.


Thanks...

[Kogswell]

i see bottle cage bosses. lose em!

if it's not going to be lugged, then put me down for O/S tubing (sorry CEYA)
straight blade fork?
ship the drilled forks with a colour matched plug to hide the hole. like an acorn nut or something.
no brake drilling on the rear.

more than 2 sizes?

Hmmmm....

How about this - an undrilled tubular bridge with a vent hole that can act as a pilot hole if someone wants to drill. I don't mind undrilled, but I hate not being able to drill.

Same on the front. The crowns are undrilled so we'll just put in a tiny pilot hole.

[paloewi]

Make them big.
60cm c-c should be more readily avaible for track bikes in steel.
thanks!

p

[Surferbruce]

and make them small. i'd love to get my wife on a tiny track frame. 48cm or so tt.

[Kogswell]

- STEEL

- I would like 74 seat tube and 75 head tube, the bike it will be more easy and fast at handling. More responsive, a 75 even bike will do the frame too hard for the street, So 74 and 75 will do in both worlds.

- Please use 24 mms chain stays and fork blades (both rounded)... the regular road chainstays arent enough for a track because they are flimpsy... tange still is doing those tubes so far today...

- Lugged or not isnt a problem nowadays, whichever will be fine.

- Between 27.5 and 28.5 cms bb hight it will do in both worlds just fine.

- Frame size must be c-t

- Do not add a drill for a rear brake.. the frame it will looks kind'a puaj with that hole there.

- As somebody said, add or sell another fork with the brake drill on it. Somebody would like the bike for racing and a drill in the fork looks kind'a puaj again... (im a classic ex racer ok?)

- DO two models, one for serius track people and other for street people???

- Tubing?.. well any tube Brand will do fine as the frame has the right geometry, but I insist 24 mms rounded chain stays and fork blades is the way to go.


Thanks...


Steel, of course.

I like bikes where the head tube is steeper than he seat, so OK on that.

What's the BB drop for 28cm height?

We always spec S/T center-to-top.

Round chain stays it is.

[Kogswell]

Make them big.
60cm c-c should be more readily avaible for track bikes in steel.
thanks!


51
53.5
56
59
61.5

c-2-t

[Kogswell]

and make them small. i'd love to get my wife on a tiny track frame. 48cm or so tt.

Our Model M is available in 46 and 50cm. Takes 26" wheels.

Frame, fork, wheels, brakes - $300 - the wheels are Mavic rims and our fixee hubs.

1-952-445-8804

http://kogswell.com/images/mbay2.jpg

[Ceya]

don't use dropouts/track ends like the above photo.

S/F,
CEYA!

[Kogswell]

don't use dropouts/track ends like the above photo.


How about the ones that I showed in the first posting? Do those work 4YA?

http://kogswell.com/images/cheapTRACK.jpg

[Ceya]

yeah they work. have the steel liner for trak ends so paint won't get chip away.

S/F,
CEYA!

[Kogswell]

yeah they work. have the steel liner for trak ends so paint won't get chip away.

No liners.

I just rendered them that way to show the raised portion.

They'll just be plain old water-cut, CNC'd detailed, laser engraved 7mm Cro-Mo plate.

[baxtefer]

Our Model M is available in 46 and 50cm. Takes 26" wheels.

Frame, fork, wheels, brakes - $300 - the wheels are Mavic rims and our fixee hubs.

1-952-445-8804



PM-ed

[Interlocutor]

Posted on behalf of a friend who isn't registered:


26.8, 27.0 or 27.2 seatpost for ease of finding seatposts.

TRACK GEOMETRY. Road geometry is too slow for me, and I prefer even off the velo.

1"/threaded head tube. I realize that it's perfectly possible to use 1.125 / threadless set-ups on the track, but it's hard to fine-tune those on the fly, and require too many stems/spacers to be practical for me.

Rear brake bridge for those who can only afford one frame and want to run this freewheeling on the road for training.


I second the BIG comment, as I'm tall and need a 61st/57tt minimum. Please don't make "square" bikes like Surly/soma, 60x60, 56x56, or whatever.


Oh, and seconded on the plate'd track ends, my current velo ride is getting screwed up for lack of proper fork end, losing all the paint from wheel changes.

[Kogswell]

[QUOTE=Interlocutor]Posted on behalf of a friend who isn't registered:
[QUOTE]

26.8, 27.0 or 27.2 seatpost for ease of finding seatposts.

27.2

TRACK GEOMETRY. Road geometry is too slow for me, and I prefer even off the velo.

So far I have 75 head and 74 seat. And I'm waiting for consensus a BB drop dimension.

1"/threaded head tube. I realize that it's perfectly possible to use 1.125 / threadless set-ups on the track, but it's hard to fine-tune those on the fly, and require too many stems/spacers to be practical for me.

What we've done recently is to size the head tube for 9/8" steerers and then ship the 1" forks with alloy reducers. It works well and then everyone is happy.

Rear brake bridge for those who can only afford one frame and want to run this freewheeling on the road for training.

See my notes above.

I second the BIG comment, as I'm tall and need a 61st/57tt minimum. Please don't make "square" bikes like Surly/soma, 60x60, 56x56, or whatever.

See my size list above.

Oh, and seconded on the plate'd track ends, my current velo ride is getting screwed up for lack of proper fork end, losing all the paint from wheel changes.

I will take that under advisement.

[ultraman6970]

27,8 cms BB hight will be fine, or 28 cms to make it even easier. What happend is that we r talking here about an street bike or a track bike?? road BB drop wont work so fine in the track well in a 50 degress velodromo it wont work so fine... the other thought is that we r talking about a frame that can be used averywhere, on the street and maybe like an entry level track racing machine... a lower BB will do the bike not so usable in the track, maybe for KM or persuit but thats it, thats the main reason a 27,5 - 28 cms bb will do fine... i think the best guess is 27.5 just in the middle... (anybody knows why the bb is lower in the persuit and km tt frames, right?)

thanks... :)

[Kogswell]

27,8 cms BB hight will be fine, or 28 cms to make it even easier. What happend is that we r talking here about an street bike or a track bike?? road BB drop wont work so fine in the track well in a 50 degress velodromo it wont work so fine... the other thought is that we r talking about a frame that can be used averywhere, on the street and maybe like an entry level track racing machine... a lower BB will do the bike not so usable in the track, maybe for KM or persuit but thats it, thats the main reason a 27,5 - 28 cms bb will do fine... i think the best guess is 27.5 just in the middle... (anybody knows why the bb is lower in the persuit and km tt frames, right?)

thanks... :)

Yeah, I want folks to be able to take to this model to a track and do some developement work.

I understand that there is no such thing as a 'general purpose' track bike. But I'd like this model to be serious enough to be taken seriously. I'd like it to be different from the other bikes on the market: the Bianchis and Fujis and the rest. If that means round fork blades, steeper angle and a high BB, then fine.

I've got a working model name for it: CheapTrick.

[ultraman6970]

Hi again...

Well nobody is using round fork blades nor rounded chain stays anymore, thats classic. That will give at the same time the stiffness enough to be different and fast, I tried time ago a KHS bike and was awefull for a track, and make sense because was made having a letter delivery guy in mind.

Diferentiation, the chain stays and the fork blades will do that, the geometry more aggresive will put the frames in the eye of the people who knows about this stuff. The Price???, a nice paint design and some attractive like CheapTrick! hehehe

THanks :D

[53-11_alltheway]

O/S tubing (please make this high performance)
120mm rear triangle (obviously)
Lugged- if you can get oversized ones. Otherwise tigged would be fine.
1 1/8 steerer tube
track seat tube angle/headtube angles with short chainstays.
highish BB (5.0-5.5 cm drop)
Fork crown- don't care that much either way

[53-11_alltheway]

I 'll add no oversize tubing.


stiffen the bb area for sprint model.



LOL, you want no oversize tubing, but a stiff BB at the same time?

Can this not have a 1" threaded fork? I like oversize 31.8 clamp bars and I don't know of a quill stem that will take this.

[Ken Cox]

Threadless option.

If lugged, lugged all the way.

If not lugged, keep the price down.

Drilled in front.

No OS tubing.

Traditional geometry and appearance, except for threadless option.

Really, though, just make it look like a threadless Ganwell Pro and sell it for what regular people can afford.

[Kogswell]

see below

[Kogswell]

O/S tubing (please make this high performance)

O/S tubing is pretty standard.

120mm rear triangle (obviously)

Yep.

Lugged- if you can get oversized ones. Otherwise tigged would be fine.

O/S lugs are easy. But I think I'll keep the price low by using TIG.

1 1/8 steerer tube

You're the first to ask for 9/8" steering. We've improved 9/8" threadless steel by using a light (1.2mm) steerer. Our 9/8" threadless fork now weighs less than a 1" threaded fork and it's lighter and stiffer in the head. And since you can run a 9/8" quill stem, I'm like it better than 1" threaded now.

highish BB (5.0-5.5 cm drop)

So we have 28mm and 52mm. Anyone else?

Fork crown- don't care that much either way.

LC19 w/ round blades for the 'track' fork. And our standard crown for the other forks.

[/QUOTE]

[Kogswell]

Threadless option.

If lugged, lugged all the way.

If not lugged, keep the price down.

Drilled in front.

No OS tubing.

Traditional geometry and appearance, except for threadless option.

Really, though, just make it look like a threadless Ganwell Pro and sell it for what regular people can afford.

Yeah, I think I will keep the price low. I think more people will be better served by having access to a more trackish bike at a lower cost than by a less trackish bike at a higher cost.

Threadless Ganwell Pro - check.

[Jamtastic]

noooo. threaded... sexier..
also
dont make all forks drilled. Some people need brakes but some dont.

[53-11_alltheway]

noooo. threaded... sexier..
also
dont make all forks drilled. Some people need brakes but some dont.

1" threaded and 26.0 bars are for all the posuers who also like lacing tangential hubs radially and hang out in the FG/SS forum.

I think Kogswell should stay true to the mission in making this a cheap and fast track weapon.

[Jamtastic]

1" threaded and 26.0 bars are for all the posuers who also like lacing tangential hubs radially and hang out in the FG/SS forum.

I think Kogswell should stay true to the mission in making this a cheap and fast track weapon.

that first part pegged me. do i have a target on me. but hey .... i like 25.4 bars. *sticks tongue out*

[Jose R]

highish BB (5.0-5.5 cm drop)

So we have 28mm and 52mm. Anyone else?

Just to be clear.

Bottom brackets are measured two ways; by height (floor to center of BB) and drop (horizontal line thru axles to center of BB).

So, BB height = ~ 28cm and BB drop = 5-5.5mm

Americans usually measure BB drop; Italians BB height. I know its confusing...

So, 28mm makes no sense for a drop or height measurement. 52mm is ok, but the standards are 50mm or 55mm for a drop.

To be on the safe side, use 50mm drop.

Threadless is the new standard at the track. Trackies are running OS or road handlebars these days. Its easy enough to switch out stems and handlebars.

If you are going to tig weld to keep costs down, might as well go OS, since you will be using 9/8" HT.

Also, the issue of good track ends are way important. Paragon (http://www.paragonmachineworks.com/) makes a nice track end with relieved plates.

[Kogswell]

Bottom brackets are measured two ways; by height (floor to center of BB) and drop (horizontal line thru axles to center of BB). So, BB height = ~ 28cm and BB drop = 5-5.5mm Americans usually measure BB drop; Italians BB height. So, 28mm makes no sense for a drop or height measurement. 52mm is ok, but the standards are 50mm or 55mm for a drop. To be on the safe side, use 50mm drop.

My bad. I always think in terms of drop and when I saw 28, I thought that someone was play'n with me

Threadless is the new standard at the track. Trackies are running OS or road handlebars these days. Its easy enough to switch out stems and handlebars.

Yeah, we make a lot of forks and people are split down the middle now, half 1"/tread, the other half 9/8" threadless. So we make both. The other thing we're testing is using thinner walls in the steerer on the 9/8" threadless. Turns out 1.6mm walls made sense when you threaded the steerer but not when you don't. We talked to BMX builders who have been using thin-wall 9/8" steel steerers forever and they have zero problems. The kool part is that the thinner-walled steerers are lighter than the 1"/threaded.

If you are going to tig weld to keep costs down, might as well go OS, since you will be using 9/8" HT.

OS is pretty standard these days and we don't get many serious requests for 1" T/T or 28.6mm D/T.

Also, the issue of good track ends are way important.

We've made big leaps in D.O. design. We now have good laser/CNC plate dropouts that are very nice.

Thanks a ton for your careful collaboration. -Matthew

[Ceya]

Jose R, Road bars nothing new on the track but people been having problem raising their stem and can't do it due to the threadless stems.

S/F,
CEYA!

[Ceya]

LOL, you want no oversize tubing, but a stiff BB at the same time?

Can this not have a 1" threaded fork? I like oversize 31.8 clamp bars and I don't know of a quill stem that will take this.


not Oversized and freaking stiff.

S/F,
CEYA!

[Kogswell]

You can use a quill stem w/ a threadless fork.

And help me understand why OS tubes and stiffness aren't related.

[Ceya]

You can use a quill stem w/ a threadless fork.

And help me understand why OS tubes and stiffness aren't related.


yeah I know but most don't buy or use the adapter.


I didn't associate oversized bb and stiffness together. that was 53-11_alltheway who stated the two together.

I just said don't use os tubing and have a stiff bb area. It not like you can't get a stiff bb without os tubing.


S/F,
CEYA!

[Kogswell]

yeah I know but most don't buy or use the adapter.

I just said don't use os tubing and have a stiff bb area. It not like you can't get a stiff bb without os tubing.


What adapter?

And what is it about OS tubing that you don't like?

How would you like the BB area to be made more stiff?

[Ceya]

Quill adapter that they use for threadless stem.

I just personally never like them , i have ridden Klein mountain bike but I am old fashion.

S/F,
CEYA!

[baxtefer]

Quill adapter that they use for threadless stem.

I just personally never like them , i have ridden Klein mountain bike but I am old fashion.

S/F,
CEYA!

you guys are talking about 2 different things

CEYA is talking about using an adaptor with a threaded fork/headset in order to use a threadless stem.
but
Kogswell is talking about using something like a threadless YST GeForce headset with a threadless steerer, which allows you to use a quill stem

[Ceya]

How would you like the BB area to be made more stiff?

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=858

sorry bad pic.

the above was done by my friend Johnny(RIP) of Alma Pura Cycles in NY.

He called them Bat Wings. It reinforce the BB by connecting the tubes at all points where they meet.

The above the seat tube and down tube are not connected by reinforcements.

Bob Jackson has a similar format also.

S/F,
CEYA!

Baxter thanks!

[moki]

Long Shen Arrowpoint lugs (so hot)

NIce tubes with short butts, tuned for frame size hopefully.

Short head tube, therefore longer TT than CTT, which allows better standover with a highish BB. Extended head tube for added stiffness / higher bar position?

Flat crown drilled for a brake. Curved fork blades for comfort, and curved all the way to the dropouts for Maximum style. Well, straight blades for max style, but it is RFC, after all.

Room for fenders as well as short chainstays. Curved or crimped chainstays and seatstays are the only solution I can thing of.


Unpainted ends and fork dropouts.

[Kogswell]

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=858



Now you're talkin.

Bat wings are pretty standard on lots of Long Shen BB shells:

http://kogswell.com/images/batWINGS.jpg

But since this is gonna be TIG, I'll have to do it some other way. A bit of CNC'd plate, maybe. Maybe a K shape, for fun.

Or just a BIG, FAT bridge.

[Kogswell]

Long Shen Arrowpoint lugs (so hot)

Yeah, lugs are nice. But this is gonna be TIG'd to lower cost so...

NIce tubes with short butts, tuned for frame size hopefully.

We can do that. I'm thinking of some oddly butted tubes; it costs us zero extra to butt the tubes any way we choose. Like how about a section of the top tube butted THICK where the bars hit: a built-in tube protector.

Short head tube, therefore longer TT than CTT, which allows better standover with a highish BB. Extended head tube for added stiffness / higher bar position?

Great minds think alike, and so do our's!

Flat crown drilled for a brake. Curved fork blades for comfort, and curved all the way to the dropouts for Maximum style. Well, straight blades for max style, but it is RFC, after all.

Room for fenders as well as short chainstays. Curved or crimped chainstays and seatstays are the only solution I can thing of.

I'm thinking that if you want to run fenders, then use 590 (650A) rims. I'll make some fenders to fit this frame. Imagine a super-squirrelly track bike w/ fenders and 590s for rain duty! I'll package fenders and a high offset for together, to eliminate TCO when the fenders are on.

Unpainted ends and fork dropouts.

Nah. Orange power everywhere.

[Ceya]

Now you're talkin.

Bat wings are pretty standard on lots of Long Shen BB shells:

http://kogswell.com/images/batWINGS.jpg

But since this is gonna be TIG, I'll have to do it some other way. A bit of CNC'd plate, maybe. Maybe a K shape, for fun.

Or just a BIG, FAT bridge.

This is from world class cycles, showing Bob Jackson . look at the BB on the track frame . You see little wings connecting to other tubes. Alma Pura was alot bigger .
Those are batwings.

S/F,
CEYA!


http://www.worldclasscycles.com/jackson_853_os_arrowhead_track.htm

[Rodador]

This is from world class cycles, showing Bob Jackson . look at the BB on the track frame . You see little wings connecting to other tubes. Alma Pura was alot bigger .
Those are batwings.

S/F,
CEYA!


http://www.worldclasscycles.com/jackson_853_os_arrowhead_track.htm

Good morning gentlemen. I think you guys are talking about a couple different types of shells. By "batwings," Ceya does not mean merely a cast reinforcemnt between chainstays, but rather integral gussets between the other tubes joined at the bb. The spearpoint shell on the bob jackson is a long shen model shown on the ceeway site (first bb shell page, top row, fourth from the left):
http://www.ceeway.com/Bottom%20Bracket%20Shells.htm

The shell on the Alma Pura bike is a Silva model 528 shell and is also on the ceeway site (second bb shell page, half way down the page on the left side):
http://www.ceeway.com/Bottom%20Bracket%202.htm

I don't know how effective these shells are at stiffening the bb; because I don't think the average cast bb shell is very flexible. But both of these are good looking!

[Kogswell]

Good morning gentlemen. I think you guys are talking about a couple different types of shells. By "batwings," Ceya does not mean merely a cast reinforcemnt between chainstays, but rather integral gussets between the other tubes joined at the bb. The spearpoint shell on the bob jackson is a long shen model shown on the ceeway site (first bb shell page, top row, fourth from the left):
http://www.ceeway.com/Bottom%20Bracket%20Shells.htm

I don't know how effective these shells are at stiffening the bb; because I don't think the average cast bb shell is very flexible. But both of these are good looking!

Right.

The Bob Jackson is made using the Long Shen 300R set:

http://kogswell.com/images/ls300r.gif

And I agree, pretty but of questionable frame stiffening use.

Just to be clear, this frame will NOT BE LUGGED.