Touring - Shifters

You mostly see tourers using bar end shifters, over integrated. I know this has do with index/friction, but how often do you actually need switch between index and friction shifting? When does this happen?

thanks in advance

Peter

it usually happens after your bike goes down and your indexing barcon doesn't index the derailluer so smooth anymore.

If one has a derailleur break (or get bashed) while on tour, ANY rear derailleur can be shifted in friction mode. This allows lots of latitude in replacements if the nearest shop doesn't have the make and model you had.

A few other reasons:

– The front shifter works in friction mode, which means it will work with non-standard cogs and that derailleur can be trimmed to avoid noises from chain rub.

– Mechanical "innards" don't break (because there are none).

– Easier to shift from the drops (where I ride), and doesn't really take much more time from the tops. We are not racing, after all.

– No conflict with a handlebar bag.

– No need for a "travel agent" on the brakes (if v-brakes are used),

A few other reasons:

– The front shifter works in friction mode, which means it will work with non-standard cogs and that derailleur can be trimmed to avoid noises from chain rub.

– Mechanical "innards" don't break (because there are none).

– Easier to shift from the drops (where I ride), and doesn't really take much more time from the tops. We are not racing, after all.

– No conflict with a handlebar bag.

– No need for a "travel agent" on the brakes (if v-brakes are used),

yep, the KISS principle ...
'Keep It Simple Stupid' ... which is good on tour

Most of these postings are pure theory. In fact you almost never need to use friction mode because your pannier pretty much protect your rear derailleur if the bike flops over while stopped and crashing a fully loaded bike is unusual.

Even if you screw up your rear derailleur exactly where in the world are you going to be where Shimano won't be the most common deraiileur?

I like and prefer the FEEL of bar end shifters and I can tell by the feel what gear I'm in. I can EASE the shift so that there isn't a loud CLACK when I shift. And as Michel Gagnon pointed out, if you have a handlebar bag (and what tourers don't?) combined shifters may not work properly though that's a bit of a stretch.

The real advantage is that they're less than half the price of a combined shifter, a whole lot less complicated and almost never fail. I've replaced about a half dozen failed Ultegra levers and a couple failed Campy levers though they were the lowest end stuff from a long time ago.

I'm glad some one made the point about bar end shifters being more affordable. Being a guy who usually orders from the right hand side of the menu, this is a big deal. Also, downtube shifters are simple, dependable, and affordable.

I don't know about the price... 9s bar-ends + Dia-Compe levers aren't that much cheaper than STI levers.

I've replaced about a half dozen failed Ultegra levers and a couple failed Campy levers though they were the lowest end stuff from a long time ago.

Half dozen failed Ultegra levers - so that means about 6. How many miles do you ride and why do you think you've had to replace so many? I don't get it because I have a 1999 Lemond Zurich road bike that now has about 23,000 miles on it and I still have the same Ultegra levers on there. They are a bit worn, but they still work great.

I've actually got an old set of barcons that I'm pretty sure won't shift the midrange in indexing becaused they've been used as 'skid plates' in several sliding crashes.

If you are running STI and whack the shifter you will have two systems go down, for instance, the rear brake and the rear derailleur. Sure lot's of LBS's will be stocked with Shimano but you still have to get there.

A touring bike is essentially a compromise but for my money simpicity and durability carry the day.

Wrecking a rear mech is a real possibility on a tour. It can get damaged on the flight or if you catch a branch in the chain.
I've wrecked one rear mech on my commuter bike: it didnt just wear out, it snapped in half.
There are plenty of places in the world where 9-speed Shimano is not available at the nearest bike store. You can pick up a steel SIS rear mechs anywhere and these work well enough to be on your way.

At the risk of seeming to be living in the past I have to say I prefer down-tube shifters over bar-ends. I have toured with bar-ends but still prefer the directness and (to me at least) the more natural position of the down-tubes. Again having come down hard with a loaded bike courtesy of tram-lines I've had the end of the bars rammed into my thigh...if it had been the pointed end of bar-ends I would have been in serious trouble. So, for me, I stick with Dura-Ace down-shifters..slick,direct and reliable.

At the risk of seeming to be living in the past I have to say I prefer down-tube shifters over bar-ends. I have toured with bar-ends but still prefer the directness and (to me at least) the more natural position of the down-tubes. Again having come down hard with a loaded bike courtesy of tram-lines I've had the end of the bars rammed into my thigh...if it had been the pointed end of bar-ends I would have been in serious trouble. So, for me, I stick with Dura-Ace down-shifters..slick,direct and reliable.


I agree, I like downtube better then bar end.

I don't know about the price... 9s bar-ends + Dia-Compe levers aren't that much cheaper than STI levers.

Oh yes they are. You can get the Diacompe levers for about $50 (www.speedgoat.com) and the bar end shifters for about $83 (www.performancebike.com). That is $135. Performance has Ultegra STI shifters on sale for $240. That's a big difference if you ask me.

Ultegra were 200$ when I checked, 180$ for 105 and 145$ for barends + Dia-Compe. Not quite twice as much.

Last night I just bought a set of NEW Dura Ace bar ends from a shop on Ebay for $50. I bought a set of Nashbar levers which are really nice for $15. They even include an extra set of hoods!

Nashbar who normally have the cheapest prices on normal Shimano stuff, lists 105 STI levers at $190.

But I choose barends because I PREFER the way they shift over the way that STI or Ergo shift. Of the last five bikes I've build, four of them have bar ends on them. And two of those are road bikes.

And NORMAL brake levers feel a great deal better under the hands than those fat combined shifter levers.

So can Dura-Ace indexed bar end shifters also be used in friction mode? How do you switch between the two modes?

So can Dura-Ace indexed bar end shifters also be used in friction mode? How do you switch between the two modes?

Yes. The front is always friction. The rear has a small metal loop that can be folded out to grip and turn from the index to friction position.

Ultegra were 200$ when I checked, 180$ for 105 and 145$ for barends + Dia-Compe. Not quite twice as much.

List for Ultegra 9 speed brifters is $323 from QBP.
List for Ultegra level SL-BS77 9 speed barcons is $83
List for Dia Compe 287-V is $76

That's almost exactly half. If you are running cantis, you can save a lot more on brake levers and actually have a choice.

Yes, there are deals to be had on brifters and they can be found for much cheaper, but there are also deals on barcons and levers.

At the risk of seeming to be living in the past I have to say I prefer down-tube shifters over bar-ends. I have toured with bar-ends but still prefer the directness and (to me at least) the more natural position of the down-tubes. Again having come down hard with a loaded bike courtesy of tram-lines I've had the end of the bars rammed into my thigh...if it had been the pointed end of bar-ends I would have been in serious trouble. So, for me, I stick with Dura-Ace down-shifters..slick,direct and reliable.

I agree -- you're living in the past...

I agree -- you're living in the past...

Perhaps....but at my age that's where I belong and I prefer it.
;) Anyway...I don't see this as too antiquated.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b332/onbike/PICT0279.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b332/onbike/PICT0281.jpg

Last night I just bought a set of NEW Dura Ace bar ends from a shop on Ebay for $50. I bought a set of Nashbar levers which are really nice for $15. They even include an extra set of hoods!

Nashbar who normally have the cheapest prices on normal Shimano stuff, lists 105 STI levers at $190.

But I choose barends because I PREFER the way they shift over the way that STI or Ergo shift. Of the last five bikes I've build, four of them have bar ends on them. And two of those are road bikes.

And NORMAL brake levers feel a great deal better under the hands than those fat combined shifter levers.

These discussions on shifters crack me up! Cyclintom has the best reason for retro-shifters, he just likes them. This is a great answer, all the others are trying to convince themselves or maybe someone else that retro is "better" under the mystique of "The rigors of touring". :roflmao:

I got integrated shifters as soon as they were available and have never had a failure of any kind, never broke a cable and smashed them in wrecks and dropped bikes. The shifting is precise and your hands do not have to move to shift. (safer and faster and much easier to shift while standing) If I ever go to BFE China to tour, I will bring a back-up shifter from one of my other bikes. Worst case scenario is total failure of rear shifter and brake, lets say a plane comes down and crashes into the right side of my handlebar while out on a bike ride with some stuff (touring). I tie off the rear shifter cable in a middle to low gear, that leaves me with 3 gears and a front brake. I ride to the nearest phone, dial 1-800-nashbar and have one sent a day ahead of me. And if money is sooooo tight that I did not plan in $ contingency into my bike ride with some stuff than I'll just finish the tour with 3 gears, plenty of people tour on a single.

OK I'm done ranting now, sorry had to let it out, really I do love you Retrogrouch guys.

Perhaps....but at my age that's where I belong and I prefer it.
;) Anyway...I don't see this as too antiquated.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b332/onbike/PICT0279.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b332/onbike/PICT0281.jpg
hey onbike that is one fine lookin bike.

I ride STI's. I prefer them over bar-ends for a couple of reasons having to do with hand position while shifting, my own style of shifting (I leared to shift often while riding on the road and racing), and just general preference. I have campy bar-ends on my around town bike and they're fine to, just not my prefence while on a longer ride.
I have learned where my own personal take on KISS and on backups and reliability over weight and modernism are, and I'm quite happy where I am. I think this is all a matter of putting your trip (actually any trip by bike, even out to the local pub) in the context of "If part X breaks how far do I have to walk because I don't have another one of those." So, I'll ride to the local pub (1.5 miles) without a spare tire because I can walk home in half and hour if I flat, but I won't ride to the local grocery (3 miles) because then it'll take me an hour to walk home and I'd rather change the tube than kill that much time. But, I don't carry a spare tire on that trip, just a tube. If I'm on a long road ride that's going to start and end at the house then I'll carry a little more, but I also know that I can call my spouse or any number of close friends and get assistance if I need it.
So, what I'm saying is that for me, replacing an STI lever is a risk I'm willing to take on most tours in the Continental US because I'm confidant that I can get a new one or get to a new one in a short amount of time. My comfort outweights my need for reliability.
For what it's worth I also think the most valuable tool that you can take with you while on tour is your local shop's phone number.

These discussions on shifters crack me up! Cyclintom has the best reason for retro-shifters, he just likes them. This is a great answer, all the others are trying to convince themselves or maybe someone else that retro is "better" under the mystique of "The rigors of touring". :roflmao:


I run Campy ergo 10 speed on my road bike and barcons on my tourer so I think we can dispense with the bogus "retro grouch mystique" argument. (Not that it has any relevance whatsoever in the first place.)

It all comes down to choosing the right set of comprimises for the intended use. You're willing to put up with paying double for parts, living with wear from more moving parts, perhaps having to make unexpected mail-order purchases, obviating the ability to swap nine and eight speed cassettes and shifters based on what's most available locally, having to know exactly where Nashbar might need to mail the aforementioned replacement parts, having to deal with more finicky adjustment, and potentially having to hobble along as a three-speed, all for the priviledge of not having to move your hands a total of four inches every now and again. I'm not.

Brifters have their place. Just not on =my= touring bike. Different priorities for different people, I suppose.

I run the front D on friction and the rear on index. This allows me to use most of the gears with pretty good chain alignment.

There is a common problem with STI shifters in the cold. They become unpredictable. When trying to downshift in the rear, nothing happens - the lever moves but the mechanism doesn't.

It is the theory of a bike mechanic I met that when it gets cold, the lubrication on the very small internal parts that make the ratchet mechanism work gets thicker adn stickier than usual and it doesn't "catch" properly.

I run Campy ergo 10 speed on my road bike and barcons on my tourer so I think we can dispense with the bogus "retro grouch mystique" argument. (Not that it has any relevance whatsoever in the first place.)

It all comes down to choosing the right set of comprimises for the intended use. You're willing to put up with paying double for parts, living with wear from more moving parts, perhaps having to make unexpected mail-order purchases, obviating the ability to swap nine and eight speed cassettes and shifters based on what's most available locally, having to know exactly where Nashbar might need to mail the aforementioned replacement parts, having to deal with more finicky adjustment, and potentially having to hobble along as a three-speed, all for the priviledge of not having to move your hands a total of four inches every now and again. I'm not.

Brifters have their place. Just not on =my= touring bike. Different priorities for different people, I suppose.

"It all comes down to choosing the right set of compromises for the intended use."
I'm in full agreement with this. Given your same situation, I would put the Campy shifters on the touring bike and the bar-ends on the road bike. To me, being in the right gear all of the time is more important on a 75lbs bike than a 20 lbs bike. It is MUCH easier to be in the most efficient gear with integrated shifters than bar-ends.

It is MUCH easier to be in the most efficient gear with integrated shifters than bar-ends.

I wouldn't classify eliminating a four inch hand movement as "MUCH" easier. From the drops (somewhere I spend a lot of time), brifters are actually LESS easy than barcons. As I said, I'll take peace of mind over a minimal difference in convenience.

I'm with halfspeed on this. When I'm touring, the extra second it takes to reach for the barcon is insignificant, especially since I'm not shifting frequently. When I'm riding my 2100 locally at a training pace I am constantly shifting to keep my cadence and pace up. I much prefer the brifters in that situation and find them essential.

Then, there is something about touring that (to me) is about relaxing, going with the flow, a "simple but functional" frame of mind, and bar-ends just fill that design spec perfectly...

I wouldn't classify eliminating a four inch hand movement as "MUCH" easier. From the drops (somewhere I spend a lot of time), brifters are actually LESS easy than barcons. As I said, I'll take peace of mind over a minimal difference in convenience.

If you ride in the drops most of the time, than it is less of an issue. (you really ride in the drops most of the time while touring?) I rarely ride in the drops while touring, almost never, a more upright posture is more comfortable for me and better for sightseeing, anyway. That four inch hand movement multiplied by thousands of shifts on a long tour makes a huge difference to me and being able to shift while standing is also important to me.

From mtnroads: "When I'm riding my 2100 locally at a training pace I am constantly shifting to keep my cadence and pace up. I much prefer the brifters in that situation and find them essential."

This is exactly my point, to me it is more important to maintain that "perfect cadence" on a 75 lbs bike than a 20 lbs bike. Maintaining your "perfect (or close to it) cadence over 5000 miles and several mountain ranges will make a big difference, especially if you have any knee problems.

This is exactly my point, to me it is more important to maintain that "perfect cadence" on a 75 lbs bike than a 20 lbs bike. Maintaining your "perfect (or close to it) cadence over 5000 miles and several mountain ranges will make a big difference, especially if you have any knee problems.

I can certainly see your point , I am sure there are folks other out there just like yourself who can't figure out what gear they are in and can't judge movement of a lever ,indexing for you all is probaly a necessity. But it is nothing you need to be ashamed of.

I got both friction and indexed systems among my bikes and they all seem to work well enough for me but then again I may just be talented

I can certainly see your point , I am sure there are folks other out there just like yourself who can't figure out what gear they are in and can't judge movement of a lever ,indexing for you all is probaly a necessity. But it is nothing you need to be ashamed of.

I got both friction and indexed systems among my bikes and they all seem to work well enough for me but then again I may just be talented

Your right I must not be able to figure out which gear I'm in, I wish I had your talent! Thanks for the productive addition to our conversation.

If you ride in the drops most of the time, than it is less of an issue. (you really ride in the drops most of the time while touring?)

I'm only in the drops most of the time when it's really windy. I do a lot of changing from the tops to the hoods to the drops and back. I find it is most comfortable to vary hand positions. I estimate that normally I'm in the drops about 30% of the time. More on windy days.

Perhaps....but at my age that's where I belong and I prefer it.
;) Anyway...I don't see this as too antiquated.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b332/onbike/PICT0279.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b332/onbike/PICT0281.jpg

Touché!

I, too, am of an age that I didn't initially understand that the question was "bar ends or STI?". For me the debate is bar-end or down-tube, and I like downtube cuz it's one less set of cables on the bars.

Your right I must not be able to figure out which gear I'm in, I wish I had your talent! Thanks for the productive addition to our conversation.

You are welcome Greg!. Just keep working at those gears you will get there! just remember that on the right side ( the side the chain is on)moving the big lever makes it easier and moving the little lever makes it harder. But don't mess with the one on the left till you learn the one on the right.

Let me know if I can be of further assistance:D

Touché!

I, too, am of an age that I didn't initially understand that the question was "bar ends or STI?". For me the debate is bar-end or down-tube, and I like downtube cuz it's one less set of cables on the bars.

Just try to keep the original box they came in, it increases the value on the antiques road show.

If you ride in the drops most of the time, than it is less of an issue. (you really ride in the drops most of the time while touring?) ...


I do ride in the drops about 90% of the time, and spend whatever little time left on the tops. Never on the hoods, which I find too far away, too uncomfortable and too slippery (especially when hitting bumps). When I am down there, I don't need to grasp the bars. I have to add that my bars are about level with the saddle.

In terms of shifting, I find STI horrible to use from the drops. The few times I used them, I had to move my right hand to the top of the hood to be able to shift easily. Otherwise it worked, but I didn't feel totally in control. With bar-ends, it's a simple matter of using the palm of my hand for upshifts on the rear derailleur, or pulling with the little finger for downshifts.