It wouldn't stop me from putting discs on a bike, but it would probably stop me from putting 8" rotors on a bike.

8" rotors are really only for psycho downhillers anyway. but if your bike weighs 50 lbs, and you're hitting speeds up to 70 mph, you need serious brakes. but for xc/street/etc., 6" is plenty.

But let's remember that V-brakes add the same stopping power at a fraction of the weight and cost as well.
"Remember" that V-brakes have the same stopping power as discs? I don't think anyone agreed to this. If they had the same stopping power as discs, you wouldn't see mountain bike racers ever using discs, since V-brakes are lighter. And before anyone says "they're forced to ride them because of sponsorship", keep in mind that the sponsors (eg., Shimano, Avid) make both types of brakes, and that racers have a choice. Some riders used to choose V-brakes for cross-country racing, although the number has shrunk a lot and I don't know if anyone does it anymore. Besides, V-brakes on a cross bike usually require Travel Agents, which a lot of people say aren't so hot.


And when you're racing you have a closed circiut upon which you've familiarized yourself so that you're unlikely to have any violent surprises that might lead you to jam the brakes on in a panic.
I thought it was clear that we we talking about general purpose use, not just racing. In fact, I remember reading this in an earlier posting:
Perhaps you are skilled enough to never be taken by surprise and grab a whole handful suddenly but the fact is that very few riders are. It is an advantage to have to conciously apply enough power to stop the bike in an emergency.


I keep hearing "modulation" from people who say they race and yet when I was racing I very seldom used my brakes and modulation certainly wasn't required. They were either on all the way or off all the way.
Same thing about the racing/general use that I just said. Also, while I agree that discs aren't really worth it on a race bike (because you don't need the stopping power), I disagree that they're "all on or all off". For example, at the national championship last weekend, there were some downhills that elite racers rode their brakes down. They weren't trying to stop, just stay in control. Also, hitting the brakes "all on" is usually a bad idea when you're on mud, gravel, or sand, but you do often have to slow down on these surfaces because of upcoming turns.

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=69&subcategory=1013&brand=&sku=15122&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=

XT Level Disk brake setup - ON SALE $340 normally $530.

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=69&subcategory=1013&brand=&sku=14122&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=

Avid Setup front and rear $280 normally $360.


This is a straw man. What you've done is to find some of the most expensive hydraulic brakes out there. What's more, in the first case, it includes the shifter/brake lever, and in the second case, it includes the brake lever. For comparison, Ultegra brake calipers cost about $75 each, and the STI levers are just ridiculous.

I don't dispute that discs are generally more expensive, but you're trying to prove the point by using the most skewed information you can find.

$280 for a pair seems pretty good. What am i missing?

Avid Mech disc brakes for $75 each. (http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/12605-115_AVDMD3-3-Parts-158-Brakes/Disc/Avid-Mechanical-BB7-Ball-Bearing-Disc-Brake-160mm-Rotor.htm)

Paul Comp Neo's for $90 each (http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=42503&cat=30&brand=185)

I cant believe how much more expensive cantis are than disc brakes! :eek:

Look, bottom line is that you can spend alot or a little on either type of brake. Ok, you can spend more on discs if you want. But remember, the hydros come with the levers too, thats why the prices are a bit higher.

I agree with the recent sentiment, discs are not for everyone or every type of riding. I have two bikes without and three bikes with (2 with front only mullet style systems). It depends on what you are using them for. I use discs in order to have predictable braking in all weather conditions while offering superior modulation in all conditions. At the same time, they have been maintenance free for me.


Anyone notice that they don't publish the weight of this stuff?

I gave you the weight of the Magura Marta SL brake, 324 grams for the entire system. lever, rotor, hose,caliper.

Less weight than XTR v brakes, and maybe a 1/2 pound heavier than your canti's. With a mud caked bike, not noticable at all.

I still don't see the point in disk brakes.

I thought you were starting to come around :D

I agree with the recent sentiment, discs are not for everyone or every type of riding. I have two bikes without and three bikes with (2 with front only mullet style systems). It depends on what you are using them for. I use discs in order to have predictable braking in all weather conditions while offering superior modulation in all conditions. At the same time, they have been maintenance free for me.

Question, what is the advantage of having a disc in the front only? I have an X01 so I can't put discs on the back, but with a different fork I could run a disc on the front but was wondering what advantage that would give me. Thanks!

Most of your braking power comes from the front brake - as you hit the brakes your weight shifts forward. That being the case, you can get by with a less effective brake in the rear. Notice that racing (sportbike) motorcycles usually have two massive rotors in the front and one smaller one in the rear. A "mullet" system is a way for someone to get improved braking without spending as much money, especially if your frame doesn't have disc brake mounts.

I thought it was clear that we we talking about general purpose use, not just racing. In fact, I remember reading this in an earlier posting:


Just to recap what I was responding to and in fact quoted: "Certainly the reduced fatigue from only having to apply light pressure over the course of a race"

Reading the rest of your posting it's plain that you and I obviously aren't going to agree. Personally I have no problems with you buying anything you like and mounting them on your bike. I might suggest some of those frilly streamers for the ends of your handlebars as well.

i'd not heard the term "mullet system" before. love it.

Paul's Neo Retros are teh sexy. but these (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7204364825) are better.

and i've got a set of streamers that were given to me. problem is, my end plugs don't have holes to attach them to. and i'm too lazy to drill any.

A couple of weekends ago I rode up to the top of the Forest of Nicene Marks in Santa Cruz. On the way down Eureka Canyon there was a surprising amount of traffic. It was these guys who would load their bikes and selves into a car, drive to the top and ride the bikes down where they'd pick up the next car and drive everyone back to the top and ride down. They would do this all day.

Seems to me they weren't doing anything but riding the roller coaster and they could have done that cheaper down on the boardwalk.

But I suppose there's room for every whacko idea in bicycling without me having to do it too. Even if it's "Yet I can feather those same brakes well enough to nose wheelie down a slope and come to a halt while still balanced on the front wheel."

I'm trying to picture the same guy that said this as looking like a guy we had in the Air Force who was standing up on the roof of the barracks. He would light his lighter and then squeeze a can of lighter fluid shooting the fluid through the flames where it would send up a stream of flames and watch the flames fall down. "Cool man!" - squeeze -"COOL man!" - squeeze - "COOL MAN!" - squeeze - "BANG!"

He lived but he could never live it down.

I thought it was clear that we we talking about general purpose use, not just racing. In fact, I remember reading this in an earlier posting:
Just to recap what I was responding to and in fact quoted: "Certainly the reduced fatigue from only having to apply light pressure over the course of a race"
That's funny, you forgot to post the rest of the sentence this time: "or simply a hard day in the saddle...." You don't make your argument any more appealing when you use gimmicks like this, or when you just make up "facts" about disc brakes dragging or whatnot.


Personally I have no problems with you buying anything you like and mounting them on your bike. I might suggest some of those frilly streamers for the ends of your handlebars as well.

Nice one. Very clever.

Nice one. Very clever.

As clever as a "front wheelie"?

As clever as a "front wheelie"?

Oh come now. You have left any rational argument behind and started name calling.

Maybe you should borrow a mountain bike or even a BMX and try some of these 'stunts'. Far from frivolous they are an extension of good bike handling skills. I rode my cross bike in a 24 hour event this May along side mountain bikes. One particularly nasty decent was steep enough that I 'nose wheelied' while on the drops on a couple of occasions. Experience shuttling downhill ("roller coaster riding") has meant that i have survived many 2 wheel drifts while decending on my crosser.

The fact remains that every one of your objections to discs has been debunked so you have crawled back to your self imposed cycling ghetto.

I just love riding in all its forms. Live a little. Broaden your horizons. It might bring a new dimension to your favoured form of cycling or take it to a new level...

I just love riding in all its forms. Live a little. Broaden your horizons. It might bring a new dimension to your favoured form of cycling or take it to a new level...

Beautiful Sentiments

Oh come now. You have left any rational argument behind and started name calling.

You mean noting someone's idea of "good braking" is to balanced the bike between going over the handlebars and stopping is "name calling"?


Maybe you should borrow a mountain bike or even a BMX and try some of these 'stunts'. Far from frivolous they are an extension of good bike handling skills. I rode my cross bike in a 24 hour event this May along side mountain bikes. One particularly nasty decent was steep enough that I 'nose wheelied' while on the drops on a couple of occasions. Experience shuttling downhill ("roller coaster riding") has meant that i have survived many 2 wheel drifts while decending on my crosser.

Funny thing that - your reading skills seem perhaps a bit limited since my .sig includes the fact that I have a Santa Cruz Superlight. And a Raleigh Team CX. Well, maybe it leaves out the fact that I've ridden mountain bikes almost since they started. That I've ridden with guys like Gary Fisher, Charlie Cunningham Cindy Whitehead and a few others of lesser note like John Tomac. Or that I know a few people in the industry like Mike Sinyard and Keith Bontrager.

The funny thing is that I never saw these people doing "front wheelies". But then I suppose that since you've been so successful at racing that you probably have a great deal better idea of what real riding skills are than they do.

You mean noting someone's idea of "good braking" is to balanced the bike between going over the handlebars and stopping is "name calling"?




Funny thing that - your reading skills seem perhaps a bit limited since my .sig includes the fact that I have a Santa Cruz Superlight. And a Raleigh Team CX. Well, maybe it leaves out the fact that I've ridden mountain bikes almost since they started. That I've ridden with guys like Gary Fisher, Charlie Cunningham Cindy Whitehead and a few others of lesser note like John Tomac. Or that I know a few people in the industry like Mike Sinyard and Keith Bontrager.

The funny thing is that I never saw these people doing "front wheelies". But then I suppose that since you've been so successful at racing that you probably have a great deal better idea of what real riding skills are than they do.

I can nose wheelie my JtS....takes me back to my days on my Haro Master. The Master Had Dia-Compe Nippons and some whacky Ubrake...remember those? U Brakes?

Oh come now. You have left any rational argument behind and started name calling.

Maybe you could point out what "names" I'm calling. And whom.

The fact is that unicyclists have a great deal better balance than any two wheeled cyclist and that won't win them a single race. Identically, being able to do a front wheelie may be a skill but it is of no use to a cyclist and those doing it are taking chances of hurting themselves out of proportion to the skill involved.

Your belief that this is somehow a demonstration of superiority of braking and bike handling skills is simply not true. What's more, if there was the slightest benefit of a disk brake on a racing bike you'd see them in the European peloton where speeds are a great deal higher than they are on ANYTHING you'll ever do in your life until you make that final Gonzo mistake and go off of that cliff.

Maybe you should borrow a mountain bike or even a BMX and try some of these 'stunts'. Far from frivolous they are an extension of good bike handling skills. I rode my cross bike in a 24 hour event this May along side mountain bikes. One particularly nasty decent was steep enough that I 'nose wheelied' while on the drops on a couple of occasions. Experience shuttling downhill ("roller coaster riding") has meant that i have survived many 2 wheel drifts while decending on my crosser.

The fact remains that every one of your objections to discs has been debunked so you have crawled back to your self imposed cycling ghetto.

I just love riding in all its forms. Live a little. Broaden your horizons. It might bring a new dimension to your favoured form of cycling or take it to a new level...

Tell me, did the guy who won thqta 24 hour even do front wheelies down the descents?

Tell me, did the guy who won thqta 24 hour even do front wheelies down the descents?

At the same race on the same decent a hometown solo rider who was coming second went over the bars and broke his collarbone. One member of a junior womens team also went over the bars and had to be helicoptered off the course. Confidence in handling comes from testing the limits until you know exactly how far you can push it. Who knows what skills the winner employed? I know what skills a DNF and a team that fell apart due to one of their riders being carted off lacked.

Skill crossover helps wins races at the highest level of our sport.

What use is a bunny hop in the peleton? I was spectating at our national criterium champs last night an watched a rider go from an also ran to third due to a flawless hop over a rider that sprawled on the last corner while the rest of the bunch stopped and moaned that the fallen rider was not getting up quick enough.

What good is cyclocross? Isn't it some sort of freakshow and not at all real bicycle racing? Why don't you just pound away on rollers all winter? Remember Armstrong vs Beloki? He would have been a 4 time TDF winner watching the end of his last tour in hospital had he not had the skill to perform an unorthadox party trick at 50mph without even thinking. How much of the prize money at Cyclocross races comes from the entry fees of riders who heard about that stunt and decided to give the sport a try?

But back to discs. The only reason there are not disc brakes in the peleton is that skinny tyres do not have the grip to maintain traction under braking forces and that there is concern over the durability of race frames/forks due to the stresses that discs place on the frame. Just as material science has made the UCIs concerns about frame weight increasingly irrelevant, engineering will make the remaining arguments against discs nothing more than the senseless rants of the nostalgic.

Well, maybe it leaves out the fact that I've ridden mountain bikes almost since they started. That I've ridden with guys like Gary Fisher, Charlie Cunningham Cindy Whitehead and a few others of lesser note like John Tomac. Or that I know a few people in the industry like Mike Sinyard and Keith Bontrager.

The funny thing is that I never saw these people doing "front wheelies". But then I suppose that since you've been so successful at racing that you probably have a great deal better idea of what real riding skills are than they do.

I am glad that none of these people were around to hear you moan about gonzo riding when they were off to Mt Tam to reinvent the bicycle industry after 30-40 years of stagnation.

At the same race on the same decent a hometown solo rider who was coming second went over the bars and broke his collarbone. One member of a junior womens team also went over the bars and had to be helicoptered off the course. Confidence in handling comes from testing the limits until you know exactly how far you can push it. Who knows what skills the winner employed? I know what skills a DNF and a team that fell apart due to one of their riders being carted off lacked.

Skill crossover helps wins races at the highest level of our sport.

What use is a bunny hop in the peleton? I was spectating at our national criterium champs last night an watched a rider go from an also ran to third due to a flawless hop over a rider that sprawled on the last corner while the rest of the bunch stopped and moaned that the fallen rider was not getting up quick enough.

What good is cyclocross? Isn't it some sort of freakshow and not at all real bicycle racing? Why don't you just pound away on rollers all winter? Remember Armstrong vs Beloki? He would have been a 4 time TDF winner watching the end of his last tour in hospital had he not had the skill to perform an unorthadox party trick at 50mph without even thinking. How much of the prize money at Cyclocross races comes from the entry fees of riders who heard about that stunt and decided to give the sport a try?

But back to discs. The only reason there are not disc brakes in the peleton is that skinny tyres do not have the grip to maintain traction under braking forces and that there is concern over the durability of race frames/forks due to the stresses that discs place on the frame. Just as material science has made the UCIs concerns about frame weight increasingly irrelevant, engineering will make the remaining arguments against discs nothing more than the senseless rants of the nostalgic.

How do those skinny tires grip in high speed turns,luck? I'm pretty sure no disc's on roadbike because of weight. Needing or not needing has nothing to do with it. Who really needs a 15 pound bike. I bet you when they get the weight down on disc's,they will be on roadbikes at a nice markup to us,rather we need them or not.

Call me crazy, but isn't all of this just conjecture until someone does some brake testing in a 'controlled' environment,(IE: Not a 250lb amateur saying his canti's have more stopping power than a 145lb cat 1 racer's v's)? In addition, braking performance is all about weight distribution. Which, in essence, is rider skill. Sorry to burst your bubble guys, but if you don't have the bike handing ablility to bunnyhop a barrier or nose wheelie on command, your opinion on brakes really doesn't matter because you're not skilled enough to take advantage of the max output of any brake system. I could throw my mother into a twin-turbo porsche and race her on a road course in a dodge neon, but that would only accomplish two things, 1: Show me that I'm a better driver than my mother and actually thats it, there is no #2. Do I care what my mothers opinion of the porsche's torque band is? Not really. Does it mean anything to me when she raves about the front and rear 6-pot calipers? Nope. Oh well, this is the internet and everyone is 145lb cat oner once they log on to an anonymous forum. Oh, and for the record, dual pivots are awesome, properly set up canti's and v's are awesome, and disk brakes are awesome.

Here's the bottom line - ALL modern brakes can lock the front wheel. The only difference is clearance allowed and lever pressure to achieve it.

You might have noticed that Lance Armstrong was so sensitive to weight that he would use a downtube shift lever for the front derailleur on his climbing bike.

Do you really think that anyone is going to put an additional pound on their bike when others are fighting for grams?

I might also note that Specialized used to build Ned's bikes with double front rings instead of a triple in order to save weight.

The fact is that no pro cross country racer would use disks unless they were being paid to do so.

I dunno about that tom, by that same logic, wouldn't all cross country racers be riding rigid? And what about the pro xc'rs who choose to race a full-bobber over a hardtail of their sponsoring company/manufacturer? And before you say name one, how about half of the pro trek team rocking out on full carbon fuels?

The disc brakes I have seen look pretty fragile. They are very thin pieces of metal just asking to be bent.

For aesthetic reasons. I'm setting up my road bike with a disc brake. are there any drop levers that have enough pull to use with disc brakes. and/or, any v-brake lever will work on disc brakes, right?

All drop levers will work with mechanical discs, usually STI's are used.

All drop levers will work with mechanical discs, usually STI's are used.

Sorry, this is wrong. Road levers will with with Avid Road Discs, but no others. All other cable-actuated discs require greater cable pull, as they're designed to be used with V-brake levers.