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Thinking about doing some light-medium overnight touring this summer, and here's what I'm considering...
My wife and I on our Burley Tosa tandem. Our son on his Piccolo trail-a-bike. And our gear (light tent, sleeping pads/bags) in either a BOB trailer or in the boys old Burley Solo trailer.
Other than being REEEEEEALLY long...what issues would we be facing? Is it safe (my first concern). Would we be better off getting some front and rear panniers and going that route, instead of the BOB?
Anyone done a big train like this before? :)
Andy
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Have seen the 'big train' at tandem rallies, but not touring.
Our preferred way would be to go with panniers on tandem (front and/or rear) plus rack trunk/bag on the Piccolo.
We have traveled on tours (motel/credit card) carrying 22 lbs. for the 2-of-us. Rear panniers and rack trunk.
I have travelled a lot with single bike + Piccolo + Chariot 2-children trailer and a bit with the tandem bike + Piccolo + trailer.
In terms of riding, no problem at all, but get very low gears and expect to slow down a lot when climbing. Going downhill, one needs good brakes, and this is one of the reasons why the tandem has a drag brake. I never had a problem in the city. As long as I don't hug the curb nor try to zig-zag my way between stopped cars (effective downtown at rush hour, but not exactly safe), it works fine. On good, flat asphalt the "road train" is almost as fast as the single bike. However, hills, bumps, stop and go traffic, etc. reduce the average speed drastically.
Places to avoid:
First and foremost: bike trails. Not only intersections are harder to do with a road train than with a single, but whoever decided that bike trails should be plagued with posts needs to be crucified. And the guy who thought it would be safe to install chicanes on the Jacques-Cartier Bridge needs to be hanged (well, maybe not litterally). Apart from that, many "cyclists" enjoy passing on my right, or passing on my left without moving off by 3-4 ft, or keeping an uneven speed... Give me highway traffic rather than that!
Bike Rallies. I have done very few of them because of that. In-city rallies like the Tour de l'ξle are the worst, longer ones may wean out the more festive "cyclists", but I still don't like all those zig-zagging cyclists and all those who think that they should follow within less than 2 bike lengths. Especially with the road train.
Forest trails. Obviously the nice, well-groomed ones. I have done a few, kids love them, but let me tell you that turns are sharp and grades are steep.
Highways without a paved shoulder. Design of the curb on city streets is such that one never hugs the concrete border (one shouldn't, generally). However, on highways with a good hard shoulder, it is quite possible to ride safely on the fog line. To push it further, on many of our smaller roads, that's where one finds the best asphalt. With the trailer, one needs to ride away from the fog line and sometimes, because of asphalt quality, this means well in the middle of the road.
There are two other issues that you should not neglect with the trailer:
In a headwind, the trailer makes a nice parachute. I have a rather high 2-children trailer (32.25" wide at the wheels, cabin is 26 or 27" wide). If you tour and have a few days with headwinds, you might not like it.
What is the quality of the wheels? My trailer has plastic wheels, and even this year with new bearings, I definitely feel the added drag when I roll the trailer. Plastic wheels and 20" tires at 30 psi definitely add drag.
With that in mind, I would recommend you go with loaded panniers. I don't have a photo of my loaded setup (I can't take the picture and be on the bike), but you'll see it here (http://www.mgagnon.net/velo/images/Equipe-RGB-12-31-51.jpg) loaded for a day ride. For a 4-day camping tour this summer I used:
- Arkel T-42 panniers in front (they are on the rear wheel in the picture);
- T-84 panniers on the rear wheel of the tandem;
- Le Montagnard panniers (the ones you see) on the Piccolo.
When I ride on the single, I spread the load 40%-60% (front-rear); because my stoker is lightweight, I noticed I had the best stability at 30%-70% or maybe even 25%-75%. So basically the large rear panniers had tools, food and mattresses. On the trailercycle, I packed bulky but lightweight items: all three sleeping bags. Depending on your relative weight, you probably need to experiment with weight distribution. Overall the tour went well, except for a mishap when we hid a patch of loose sand when going downhill on a gravel road (nothing happened, but we stopped real fast).
Finally, I definitely do not recommend using a BOB trailer behind the Piccolo trailercycle. Think of the tail wagging the dog.
Andy,
We have the gear, and I've seen it done, but I don't think I would try it. Other then the already mentioned concerns about where you ride, you also need to think about the load. Adding another 60+ lbs (kid/gear + trailer) on a Piccolo and Moose rack might be at the design limits. Maybe ok for a quick neighborhood ride, but I would worry about going any distance. Our kids are still young, but we think we are stuck with the 2 bikes for family rides. However I've set up lots of options, since we have 2 tandems/2 Piccolos:
Single bike + Piccolo & Single Bike + Trailer
Single Bike + Piccolo & Single Bike + Piccolo (This is where I think we are now)
Tandem w/stoker kit + Piccolo & Single Bike (Or here, depending on who is doing what)
Tandem w/stoker kit & Single Bike + Piccolo
An as they get older:
Tandem w/stoker kit & Tandem
Tandem & Tandem
I think I'm covered, although having 2 Piccolos and 3 Moose racks helps make everything quick change. I'm hoping we are done with the trailer this Spring, but it still might see some time in '06. Still a few years away from just taking the tandems, but kids grow fast.
John
Michael, that's quite the setup! Thanks everyone for your replies. I had talked with Burley yesterday, of course they didn't recommend the big train setup, but said panniers were the better way to go.
Glad to see you don't have problems with the Piccolo and rear panniers. The Burley rep had said he wasn't sure if there would be clearance issues. Are you using their "Moose Rack"?
Thanks again. Can't wait for summer!!!
Yes, I have the "Moose rack". Well, I actually have two, one for the single touring bike and one for the tandem. The rack itself is so sturdy that there is no problem hanging the Piccolo and panniers.
There may be an issue with some panniers, depending on where and how they hook. If you look at the Moose rack from the top, it has a hourglass shape, so that when the Piccolo is attached, the bracket of the Piccolo is about the same width as the front and rear parts of the rack. With the older Arkel bags that had hooks in fixed position, it meant the centre lock didn't lock. With the new bags, the lock sticks out a bit more so panniers lock well but are almost impossible to remove if the Piccolo is attached (unless you move the lock away, that is). Considering how the hooks of Arkel panniers are shaped, I would say that I had no problems trusting the old system without a lock, but I am not as positive about the new system without lock. If you have a different system to attach your panniers, you might need to see if the hooks need any modification, but I am sure it is not an unsurmountable problem.
That's a different matter on the Piccolo. If you put too much weight on a rear rack, the Piccolo tends to become unstable. Interestingly enough, pulling a 2-wheel trailer tends to stabilise the entire road train.
In terms of weight, loaded touring with kids means you pull a heavy bike. On a 12-day tour with one daughter the fully loaded single bike + Piccolo weighed 150 lb, and I suspect that last Summer, on my 4-day tour with both daughters, the tandem + Piccolo must have weighted 170 or 180 lb. That's why you need good gears and good brakes.
But in terms of handling, I remember a couple of emergency stops that weren't a problem with the road train, but you definitely don't ride no hands!
Yes, I have the "Moose rack". ...There may be an issue with some panniers, depending on where and how they hook.
For the record, I can run the Ortlieb one-size-down-from-giant panniers on a Moose rack and still fit the Piccolo hitch. On my single touring bike, my heels barely clear the bags, but it works.
That's a different matter on the Piccolo. If you put too much weight on a rear rack, the Piccolo tends to become unstable. Interestingly enough, pulling a 2-wheel trailer tends to stabilise the entire road train.
I took the seat, bars, and drivetrain off of my Piccolo, and mounted *two* conventional rear racks on the trailer. It can get a bit squirrelly with heavier loads. The feeling is that the trailer as a whole can springingly torque (er, that is, oscillate rotationally) around the longitudinal access of the whole rig. My sense is that a real human being holding onto the trailer cycle works much, much better than static weight strapped to the trailer.
-Greg
We have a bob trailer now. It works fine for us. When our daughter was younger, we road with a tandem, trail a bike hooked to the tandem, and another kid in a burley trailer. It really wasn't a problem at all. Only issue is turning it around takes space. It's such a sight cars give you a wide bearth.
My personal preference would be the bob trailer over panniers. The weight is low so it effects handling less. Also the single wheel bob trailer is not much of a parachute. Once you get it's weight rolling you hardly notice it's there.
Another consideration would be that the combination of a tandem and the Picallo is already putting a decent amount of weight on the tandem's wheels. The addition of gear for 3 is going to put a significant load on the tandem. The Bob trailer by shifting some of that weight onto it's own wheel, is going to put less of a load on the tandem's wheels.
The "weight on the rear wheel" issue depends on riders' weight. In my case, it's not an issue, even with a loaded tandem, because my 1st and 2nd stoker weigh 55 and 45 lb respectively.
Regarding a trailer behind the Piccolo:
The Burley trailer is a 2-wheel trailer, therefore it stays upright and has little or no effect on the handling of the trailercycle.
The BOB trailer is a single-wheel trailer; therefore it tends to sway left or right. It is the rider of the leading bike that has the responsibility of keeping it upright. Doing so through the Piccolo acting as a "middleman", I think there will be a strong noodle effect.
Michel,
You are the ****z!!! what a setup!!! I wish I had done that when my kids were young....
Can you fit any more reflectors on the back of your rig???? (just kidding...)
Maybe I could, but I also need lights!
We have a Tandem, Piccollo and a B.O.B. I thought about attaching the B.O.B. to the Piccollo, but its mounts are far wider than the Piccollo's hub. Is there some sort of a kit that makes it possible to tow a B.O.B. with a Piccollo?
If you want to try it cheaply, why not add spacers outside the dropouts? You could get 2.5 or 5 mm spacers to widen the effective width of the Piccolo from 126 or 130 mm to 135 mm. I can't check on mine because my Piccolo has been spread to 135 mm so I can use a 9-speed LX hub.
However, I still think it will be very wobbly.
my Piccolo has been spread to 135 mm so I can use a 9-speed LX hub.
Very cool. :)
-Greg
We've done the long train as Michel and others and spent this summer quite happy with it. You can read and see pics here: http://arlentandem2005.crazyguyonabike.com and I wouldn't recommend the single wheel rear trailer, you really do need stability as you lose so much stability from having the trail-a-bike/piccolo rider bouncing up and down (kids are like that). What I'm going to try to do for this summer is fit the trail-a-bike with a brake (managed by the stoker) as I feel often enough like the wagging of the dog is about to occur.
You'll want low gears too... very low.
What I'm going to try to do for this summer is fit the trail-a-bike with a brake (managed by the stoker) as I feel often enough like the wagging of the dog is about to occur.
I've thought about this when we were doing a VERY steep descent every day on the way home from school.
Then I considered what could happen if the trailer cycle wheel locked up into a skid, while the lead bike began to brake harder and harder. With the trailer's rear wheel free to slide around in a skid and the front bike decelerating, I would fear that the trailer cycle could swing around forward at its joining hinge and slam sideways into the leading bike.
Or maybe not. I decided that I would leave well enough alone, and not add a brake to the trailer cycle.
Then again, I bet you could cause such an accident if you tried. Go fast down a hill, and jam on the trailer's brake really hard so that it locks up into a total skid. Then have the front bike brake hard and controlled. Add a little bit of a turn at the same time... I don't think it would be very pretty!
Or forget the hill, and have the trailer execute a skid while going around a tight corner at speed. See what I'm getting at? Hmmm...
Be careful!
-Greg
Be careful!
Absolutely careful - do you have any idea how much work is represented by the cargo! :)
I was not intending to set the brake tightly enough that it could skid the back wheel (in fact, none of my bikes are set such that skidding the back wheel is possible without mashing the lever flat against the bar for precisely the reasons that you mentioned) but rather just tight enough that I can bleed off speed a little further back in the train. Not sufficient to stop - just sufficient to convert a little forward motion into heat.
What I'd really like is a set of surge brakes in the baby trailer... that would be nice.
Food for thought....
I have seen a tandem with a sidecar (way old - British WW-II vintage) for sale on EBay. Wonder if a kid's trailer could be modified into a sidecar?
I've given thought to purchasing one of the following: http://www.chariotcarriers.com/html_english/sidecarrier.htm however, it's expensive and would go beside the captain (who's frankly a little busy) rather than the stoker (who has mirrors and the ability to turn around to look at the cargo while the captain manages the forward momentum). I also think it would get in the way of the correct method for starts and stops for the captain.
If we were having another child, I'd consider it though.
The BOB trailer is a single-wheel trailer; therefore it tends to sway left or right. It is the rider of the leading bike that has the responsibility of keeping it upright. Doing so through the Piccolo acting as a "middleman", I think there will be a strong noodle effect.
Exactly!
I don't have any trouble pulling a trail-a-bike xor a BOB trailer, but when I tried hitching up both behind my Coutry Road Bob fixie about a week ago, I scared myself to death. I was picking up my eight year old son from swim practice. He had a big duffle bag, I had a laptop and some other junk; hence, the trailer. The whole way home I was worried that I'd loose control and veer out into traffic. Sometimes we'd be OK, but most of the ride was a total nightmare. I'll NEVER do that again.
I gotta hand it to the two Canadians here. I'm impressed and my two children are jealous.
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