VC Puzzler 4

[Bekologist]

Rural road, 50mph speed limit, wide shoulder, swept surface. Where do you ride? And why?

Click on Thumbnail pic below as a visual aid. Picture actual, unretouched bicycling scenario from Saturday. Not vicarious observation from textbook while in armchair.

[mechBgon]

I'd ride in the middle of the shoulder. That's where I'll need to be anyway for people to get past me without doing a lane change, so if I'm there when they first see me and maintain a predictable course as they overtake, then I've got a sort of a "predictability record" established. And I'm a big fan of predictability :)

Visually, whether I'm the motorist or whether I'm the cyclist, it helps for me to be able to see "ok, he's on that side of the fog line, and I'm on this side, we're not going to overlap when I pass (or am passed)." On a 50mph highway with a shoulder that size, I'd still keep a pretty close eye on my mirror when I heard traffic overtaking me.

[LittleBigMan]

I'd ride on that beautiful, clean shoulder.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Rural road, 50mph speed limit, wide shoulder, swept surface. Where do you ride? And why?
On the shoulder.

Why? Because I'm not an idiot.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

That didn't need clearing up.
I know; but I thought I'd suggest a preemptory reason for the alternate response I expect from one or two logic/reality challenged posters. Maybe they will think of another reason to not ride on the shoulder as described.

[The Seldom Kill]

Right there I would prefer to be in the road a bit because of the driveway. This only if the traffic is clear from behind. After that you've about to enter a shaded area on a corner so I would get into that lovely looking shoulder. Drivers regularly enter a shift of light way too fast and you would be surprised at the amount of distance you travel without proper vision. Being in the middle of the road would put you in danger of not being seen whilst the vision adjusted. Being in the lane but to the right wouldn't help much because you could get nailed by oversteer.

The posted limit is 50mph but lets face it, this is a clear rural road so the driving speed will be closed to 65-70mph.

Finally, it's obviously a lovely day and you want to take the opportunity to enjoy your surroundings. Take to the shoulder and enjoy without having to consider every motor vehicle sound. Ride like you're a tourist, not a vehicle.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Right there I would prefer to be in the road a bit because of the driveway. This only if the traffic is clear from behind.
It is already obvious that the driveway IS clear. Which do you think would be more apparant to a cyclist if it were to become "unclear" and require change in position: the residential driveway or the public 50mph road behind the cyclist?

[DataJunkie]

I would prefer the middle of the lane going the wrong way. :p
Just kidding.
50-80 is a bit much for my speed limit tolerance. I'd take that nice clean shoulder.

[C Law]

about a foot to the right of the white line, maybe further right if there is traffic passing and it sounds like a semi doing 65. Those are like roads I ride on all the time.

Why: because I do not like to be buzzed

[chipcom]

This is a puzzler? On the nice shoulder of course, unless conditions dictate otherwise. (like a big ole dead deer)

[Roughstuff]

I would be careful if there were alot of the repaving marks like you have in your photo, but I would be riding about one foot to the LEFT of the white line, until I saw/heard traffic coming up from behind me. The I would scoot over to the center shoulder like the rest of you. I ride out in the main lain because

(1) I have a better view of the road when I am out on the main portion.
(2) the road surface often has a better grade of tarmac than the shoulder.
(3) the road surface is usually cleaner thn the shoulder, even if the latter is swept.
(4) cars see me sooner when I am on the main lane; and when they see me respond, the become aware that I am aware of them.
(5) I can use my rear view mirror to monitor their response as I move back toward the right.

roughstuff

[Mars]

Rural road, 50mph speed limit, wide shoulder, swept surface. Where do you ride? And why?

Click on Thumbnail pic below as a visual aid. Picture actual, unretouched bicycling scenario from Saturday. Not vicarious observation from textbook while in armchair.

Plattsburgh.

Why? Because that's where I work. Sheesh. :rolleyes:

[genec]

I would be careful if there were alot of the repaving marks like you have in your photo, but I would be riding about one foot to the LEFT of the white line, until I saw/heard traffic coming up from behind me. The I would scoot over to the center shoulder like the rest of you. I ride out in the main lain because

(1) I have a better view of the road when I am out on the main portion.
(2) the road surface often has a better grade of tarmac than the shoulder.
(3) the road surface is usually cleaner thn the shoulder, even if the latter is swept.
(4) cars see me sooner when I am on the main lane; and when they see me respond, the become aware that I am aware of them.
(5) I can use my rear view mirror to monitor their response as I move back toward the right.

roughstuff

Actually in this case I too would probably futher out to the left and listen for approaching traffic. Especially in the case of the approaching curve where I don't know what is up ahead... being further out would give me the chance to see what might be up there. I actually might even ride in the middle of the lane to scope out ahead... of course only after ensuring that there was no approaching traffic and that approaching traffic could be heard.

However in regards to roughstuff's comments I noticed that here like many of the city streets I ride, the shoulder is in better shape then the center of the road... I often see that as the case, not the ghetto situation that others portray bike lanes to be. The regular lane gets abused by traffic, and out in the country that often means loaded pickup trucks... thus, like the picture here, that portion of the road can be broken up and pose a greater threat to narrow cyclist's tires.

[Little Darwin]

Actually in this case I too would probably futher out to the left...

How fast do you guys ride that need to be in the lane because you can't see far enough ahead of you on a gentle curve? :eek:

If you are going that fast, then yes you belong in traffic. If you are going at mere mortal speed ( under 25 mph) then the shoulder looks very reasonable to me.

As for me, I would be riding the shoulder, as I can see more than enough distance to take any actions necessary to avoid problems. In a situation where I couldn't, I would do the same thing I would in a car and slow down or adjust my position until the sight line and conditions allowed me to proceed safely.

I would only take the lane if the shoulder was unacceptable for some reason (narrowed too much, poor surface or hazards on it, etc.). But, I don't claim to endeavor to be VC any more than is necessary for safe riding, so my vote may not count in a VC Puzzler. ;)

[Brian Ratliff]

Wow, you get shoulders on this type of road? I ride 55 mph rural highways like this on my commute, with the road bed literally starting at the white line.

On a road like this, I tend to ride either just to the right (6 inches to a foot) or on top of the white line. This gives me adequate room to move around so I don't feel trapped on a substandard shoulder. If I were going faster than 30mph (down a hill perhaps), but less than 40mph, I would be about a foot to the left of the white line. Faster than 40mph, I am out in the lane (yes, I have a hill on my commute where I can regulary reach 50-55mph on my bike; sucks to go back up though and it doesn't have a shoulder).

[chipcom]

Wow, you get shoulders on this type of road? I ride 55 mph rural highways like this on my commute, with the road bed literally starting at the white line.

Same here - I wish more of our roads had nice pretty shoulders like the one in Bek's pic.

[noisebeam]

I'd ride about on the white line, unless wet. What a freaking fanstatic road to cycle on. Looks a bit like a downhill so I may even go further out into the lane and watch for vehicles behind - depends on the mood I was in and traffic volume. Actually it kind of looks like the shoulder disapears after the driveway (or become partly a gutter) so geting further to the left would be wise.

Al

[genec]

How fast do you guys ride that need to be in the lane because you can't see far enough ahead of you on a gentle curve? :eek:

If you are going that fast, then yes you belong in traffic. If you are going at mere mortal speed ( under 25 mph) then the shoulder looks very reasonable to me.

As for me, I would be riding the shoulder, as I can see more than enough distance to take any actions necessary to avoid problems. In a situation where I couldn't, I would do the same thing I would in a car and slow down or adjust my position until the sight line and conditions allowed me to proceed safely.

I would only take the lane if the shoulder was unacceptable for some reason (narrowed too much, poor surface or hazards on it, etc.). But, I don't claim to endeavor to be VC any more than is necessary for safe riding, so my vote may not count in a VC Puzzler. ;)


Frankly on the country roads I ride that look very similar to this... you can ride all over the darn thing most of the time as you are the only traffic on it. That is the nice thing about those back country roads... so little traffic... so you can pedal with a clear head and hear yourself think.

Of course just around the curve the shoulder may narrow to just a sliver, so while the "view" looks great here, it can and usually does change.

I have found my best method for the detection of traffic is sound... in quiet locations (wonderfully quiet) like this, road tire noise can be heard for quite some way off.

Now I know in some other areas, roads like this can carry quite a bit of traffic... so this is all very situational.

[Helmet Head]

It is already obvious that the driveway IS clear. Which do you think would be more apparant to a cyclist if it were to become "unclear" and require change in position: the residential driveway or the public 50mph road behind the cyclist?
Is it clear that one one approaching from the opposite direction around that blind corner isn't about to turn left across your path into the driveway?

Is it clear that no one approaching from behind isn't about to right cross you as they turn into their driveway?

Sure, odds are it isn't going to happen. Perhaps only 1 in 10,000 (or whatever) cars is going to do that. Of course, it's similar odds at the thousands of driveways our paths intersect per year...

You do the math. I wonder if there is any correlation between this math and the relatively high frequency of left and right cross bike-car collisions? Hmm...

I would be in the lane in my default centerish primary riding position unless there was someone approaching from behind who obviously was not turning into the driveway, in which case I would temporarily move aside to let them pass. While riding in the shoulder makes me more prone to a left cross, this is not applicable while I'm being passed by same direction traffic because they provide good cover. Oncoming traffic is extremely unlikely to turn left into that driveway while there is traffic in the lane (whether it's me in the lane, or cars in the lane) that they need to cross to get to the driveway.

[Brian Ratliff]

I'd ride about on the white line, unless wet. What a freaking fanstatic road to cycle on. Looks a bit like a downhill so I may even go further out into the lane and watch for vehicles behind - depends on the mood I was in and traffic volume. Actually it kind of looks like the shoulder disapears after the driveway (or become partly a gutter) so geting further to the left would be wise.

Al

Exactly.

[Jalopy]

Of course just around the curve the shoulder may narrow to just a sliver, so while the "view" looks great here, it can and usually does change.
This is my only concern with riding down the centre of the shoulder. It isn't uncommon up here for roads like this to have nice fully paved shoulders on inclines and on curves and partially paved shoulders (maybe one foot of asphalt, a couple feet of gravel) on the straights.

With a shoulder like the one in the picture, riding position for most people is a no brainer. But what about if the shoulder was narrowed to one or two feet? What do most people do with that? Personally, I don't have much experience with rural roads so I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts.

Jalopy

[genec]

How fast do you guys ride that need to be in the lane because you can't see far enough ahead of you on a gentle curve? :eek:



Well it depends... one one road I used to ride every weekend, I would race the autos down the hill... So I was moving at their same pace... probably 45MPH or so...

[Brian Ratliff]

I would be in the lane in my default centerish primary riding position unless there was someone approaching from behind who obviously was not turning into the driveway, in which case I would temporarily move aside to let them pass. While riding in the shoulder makes me more prone to a left cross, this is not applicable while I'm being passed by same direction traffic because they provide good cover. Oncoming traffic is extremely unlikely to turn left into that driveway while there is traffic in the lane (whether it's me in the lane, or cars in the lane) that they need to cross to get to the driveway.

Is this from experience (by yourself, not on a group ride) on these types of roads, or is this a textbook answer? I ask because I ride these types of roads all the time, and while your situations can happen in theory, they don't really. Crossing accidents are really not an issue on rural roads; even Forster acknowledges that. Accidents from the rear are the biggest danger on rural roads, and it also corresponds to the most likely type of accident. The biggest threat is a blotched pass by a car. By experience and experiment, I can tell you that the best place to be on high speed rural roads is out of the lane, or failing that, as far off to the side as possible, excepting curves. In curves I always take the lane and always give a hand signal to keep the driver from passing. Of course, if you are alone, any part of the road is equally as useful. This is very different from how I ride urban streets, where the biggest threat is from crossing traffic.

[Brian Ratliff]

This is my only concern with riding down the centre of the shoulder. It isn't uncommon up here for roads like this to have nice fully paved shoulders on inclines and on curves and partially paved shoulders (maybe one foot of asphalt, a couple feet of gravel) on the straights.

With a shoulder like the one in the picture, riding position for most people is a no brainer. But what about if the shoulder was narrowed to one or two feet? What do most people do with that? Personally, I don't have much experience with rural roads so I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts.

Jalopy

I usually ride the line, to avoid precisely what you are talking about. If there is a shoulder and I am going significantly slower than traffic (up a hill perhaps), I will center myself in it, but only if I know the road fairly well and know when I have to adjust to a narrowing shoulder. Other than that, keeping a good look ahead, and knowing the road is the only way to keep from being surprised.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Actually in this case I too would probably futher out to the left and listen for approaching traffic. Especially in the case of the approaching curve where I don't know what is up ahead... being further out would give me the chance to see what might be up there. I actually might even ride in the middle of the lane to scope out ahead... of course only after ensuring that there was no approaching traffic and that approaching traffic could be heard.
And WHAT might be ahead that would require scoping out from the left of the shoulder line? An approaching car doing a zillion miles an hour about to make a full speed left turn right through you into that driveway before you can respond in time? As suggested by another poster.

The question/scenario is simple; don't let an overactive imagination of unseen boogeyman cause you to take doofus (and unsafe) "precautionary" measures.

[Brian Ratliff]

And WHAT might be ahead that would require scoping out from the left of the shoulder line? An approaching car doing a zillion miles an hour about to make a full speed left turn right through you into that driveway before you can respond in time? As suggested by another poster.

The question/scenario is simple; don't let an overactive imagination of unseen boogeyman cause you to take doofus (and unsafe) "precautionary" measures.

+1. The only reason I would be a bit further to the left (though probably not left of the fog line) is for space, to avoid feeling hemmed in. There is also the shoulder narrowing issue which applies very much to the roads I ride. I would probably be further to the left if the road were unfamiliar vs. one I have traveled on many times - again, the space issue.

[genec]

And WHAT might be ahead that would require scoping out from the left of the shoulder line? An approaching car doing a zillion miles an hour about to make a full speed left turn right through you into that driveway before you can respond in time? As suggested by another poster.

The question/scenario is simple; don't let an overactive imagination of unseen boogeyman cause you to take doofus (and unsafe) "precautionary" measures.

An overturned logging truck blocking part of the roadway toward which in the shoulder I was speeding at 35MPH and could not see and with the limited braking ability of my bike could not stop for...

or perhaps a broken down blond parked on the side of the road... by seeing her well up ahead, I was able to comb down my helmet hair and pop in a breath mint... upon arriving, I was able to inflate her spare tire with my bike pump and we then made plans to meet at the diner further down the road.

Bottom line is by moving left I can see further down the road and I am not blocking anyone, nor do I intend to wait until some vehicle is right on my tail before moving over. I see a wide open road and I can ride just about where I want.

[Roughstuff]

How fast do you guys ride that need to be in the lane because you can't see far enough ahead of you on a gentle curve? :eek:



Good point. But what also matters is the speed of the oncoming vehicles, which is of course far greater. (I putz along at about 8 mph). I keep a sharp eye for cars coming in both directions, because when an oncoming car means that a car BEHIND me has much less room to move over to the left. Similarly, the car coming up behind me can't see to far around the curve either, and might be stingier than they would be on a straightaway.

roughstuff

[Bekologist]

I wish more of our roads had nice pretty shoulders like the one in Bek's pic.

Aren't those some pretty shoulders?

Well, the shoulder wasn't consistently this nice and wide, and the road had plenty of upsie-daisies to keep me using the lane fully at times. However, at this spot (which was so nice I took the picture on the fly to specifically post in BF) the shoulder was nicer than the main pavement, I was moving up a slight hill, there was plenty of visual clearance to the driveway. The pickup truck is no danger (no brake lights or backemups.) Around the corner I pulled closer to the fog line.

Regardless of taking the lane for visibility reasons or at speed, there's nothing to suggest any reason to ride in the center of the traffic lane in this picture. As far as i can deduce, a vehicular cyclist is supposed to ride as far to the right as is practiable for their safety. So, a positioning in the wide, swept shoulder with adequate lines of sight would be the vehicular cyclist's choice of positioning (barring some actual specific traffic scenario), and not in the traffic lane.

[noisebeam]

Aren't those some pretty shoulders?

Well, the shoulder wasn't consistently this nice and wide, and the road had plenty of upsie-daisies to keep me using the lane fully at times. However, at this spot (which was so nice I took the picture on the fly to specifically post in BF) the shoulder was nicer than the main pavement, I was moving up a slight hill, there was plenty of visual clearance to the driveway. The pickup truck is no danger (no brake lights or backemups)

Regardless of taking the lane for visibility reasons or at speed, there's nothing to suggest any reason to ride in the center of the traffic lane in this picture. As far as i can deduce, a vehicular cyclist is supposed to ride as far to the right as is practiable for their safety. So, a positioning in the wide, swept shoulder with adequate lines of sight would be the vehicular cyclist's choice of positioning (barring some actual specific traffic scenario), and not in the traffic lane.
One thing that is missed over and over again in these 'what would you do' situations is all the subtlety and extra information one gets from being there and moving. We argue these cases based just on limited road descriptions, but even with pictures the dynamic environment is not known. If I was actually riding on this road I would not suddenly find myself in this spot having to make a decision. I would know traffic conditions, I would know they type of vehicles mostly present (i.e. are there lots of logging trucks or semis?) I would know if the shoulder is constantly changing in width and condition (and also know that if it wasn't that it still could) I would know the sightlines and watch them change fore and aft from my bike position. And the bottom line with all this extra information I would ride in lateral location that balanced all potential situations from both ahead and from the rear. I would know where to ride so I could move out the way of rear traffic and I would know how far right I could go without being at risk for ending shoulders, parked cars or right turners (which I would monitor for). This balancing comes with experience and is not primarily driven by what is technically right or safest by others opinion or studies or theories.

Al

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Good point. But what also matters is the speed of the oncoming vehicles, which is of course far greater. (I putz along at about 8 mph). I keep a sharp eye for cars coming in both directions, because when an oncoming car means that a car BEHIND me has much less room to move over to the left. Similarly, the car coming up behind me can't see to far around the curve either, and might be stingier than they would be on a straightaway.

In any of the cases the proper reaction to those scenarios is to get back on the shoulder, where any sensible cyclist would be in the first place. Unless perhaps he was cycling like a bat out of hades at a speed too fast to react to anything ahead on a road suitable for 50mph motor traffic.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

or perhaps a broken down blond parked on the side of the road... by seeing her well up ahead, I was able to comb down my helmet hair and pop in a breath mint... upon arriving, I was able to inflate her spare tire with my bike pump and we then made plans to meet at the diner further down the road.
At last some imagination with positive waves; no more of those Forester/VC induced downer negative waves.

[Treespeed]

Bek,

where is that road? I miss those big wide rural road shoulders in the NW. Considering that most drivers navigate roads like that at 50mph I would definitely be smack in the center of the shoulder enjoying the smog free air.

-Marcus

[I-Like-To-Bike]

There is also the shoulder narrowing issue which applies very much to the roads I ride.
True, there could be a shoulder narrowing issue; there also could be bandits, a three wide peloton of hyped up cyclist racers hogging the highway, or maybe an earthquake caused chasm just out of sight. BUT there isn't any such problem apparant in the provided picture. My answer is based on what is there, not what MIGHT be a problem around the bend IF I'm cycling beyond my own capabilities to stop/react in a reasonable distance/time.

[Helmet Head]

Is this from experience (by yourself, not on a group ride) on these types of roads, or is this a textbook answer? I ask because I ride these types of roads all the time, and while your situations can happen in theory, they don't really. Crossing accidents are really not an issue on rural roads; even Forster acknowledges that. Accidents from the rear are the biggest danger on rural roads, and it also corresponds to the most likely type of accident. The biggest threat is a blotched pass by a car. By experience and experiment, I can tell you that the best place to be on high speed rural roads is out of the lane, or failing that, as far off to the side as possible, excepting curves. In curves I always take the lane and always give a hand signal to keep the driver from passing. Of course, if you are alone, any part of the road is equally as useful. This is very different from how I ride urban streets, where the biggest threat is from crossing traffic.
Regardless of what the overall statistics say, which I don't dispute, the actual dangers vary according to specific factors at particular locations and situations (This assertion is premise. If you don't agree with that, then there is no point in picking apart what follows. If so, please challenge me on this point, and don't muddle things on what follows that assumes this point is true).

My response was based on what I would do in this particular situation (fact). There is a possibility that traffic might be turning across my path into that driveway (premise). In case that happens, I want to make sure drivers are aware of my presence (fact). Riding in the shoulder seems like a good way to keep them in the dark about my presence (conclusion that logically follows from premises that are disputed).

Having said that, it is also based on my agreement with you that hit-from-behind is sufficiently likely on rural roads to worry about. Where we differ is that I think it's significant that most cyclists who are hit from behind on rural roads are riding off to the right. Most people believe that's the best they can, and they simply still get hit. I believe cyclists can do better, by moving further left, out of the shoulder.

As near as I can tell, most hit-from-behind collisions happen when when the motorist is unaware of the cyclist's presence (inadvertent drift). I think lane position, using it to become relevant to the driver approaching from behind, is a useful tool to get on driver's "awareness compasses", and, thus, preventing the inadvertent drift type of car-bike collision (opinion).

[Helmet Head]

One thing that is missed over and over again in these 'what would you do' situations is all the subtlety and extra information one gets from being there and moving. We argue these cases based just on limited road descriptions, but even with pictures the dynamic environment is not known. If I was actually riding on this road I would not suddenly find myself in this spot having to make a decision. I would know traffic conditions, I would know they type of vehicles mostly present (i.e. are there lots of logging trucks or semis?) I would know if the shoulder is constantly changing in width and condition (and also know that if it wasn't that it still could) I would know the sightlines and watch them change fore and aft from my bike position. And the bottom line with all this extra information I would ride in lateral location that balanced all potential situations from both ahead and from the rear. I would know where to ride so I could move out the way of rear traffic and I would know how far right I could go without being at risk for ending shoulders, parked cars or right turners (which I would monitor for). This balancing comes with experience and is not primarily driven by what is technically right or safest by others opinion or studies or theories.

Al
+1

[Bekologist]

This road is Paradise Bay Road, North of the Hood Canal Bridge, on the way to Port Townsend. I think I was just south of Port Ludlow. it is very senic and also fairly hilly with high numbers of logging and dump trucks. I saw a pint-sized 'shoulder sweeper' the same day, cleaning the shoulders! out in the middle of BFE.

[sbhikes]

This looks a lot like the types of roads I ride on even though I'm not in a rural area. Put a beach off to the left and cut down those pesky trees and you've got my town.

Anyway, I would be riding to the right of the white line. As I approached the driveway, I'd keep an eye out for the vehicle parked in the driveway. If it looked like somebody was maybe going to start backing out, then I'd pull to the left side of the white line. A lot of people go over the white line when they want to see if it's clear to pull out.

I wouldn't care one bit what's ahead of me on that blind curve until I got there. My average speed is only about 13, not 45 (like I believe any of you go 45 unless it's down hill).

[Brian Ratliff]

HH, you didn't answer my question. Perhaps you don't warrent it any importance, but yet, experience is everything, particularly in cycling. Do you regularly ride rural highways outside of group rides?

My riding style comes from what I actually do on roads during my commute. I have experimented with different riding styles, from the "take the lane and hold cars up" method (remember, there are little or no shoulders on the rural highways I ride, and substandard width lanes), to the "yield everything all the time" method. I've settled on something inbetween, where I am not taking the lane all the time in response to all the dangers, but I am not yielding during the worse of them. I have seen cars almost suffer head-on collisions trying to pass me at an inopportune time as I was trying to hold the lane, and I have had cars creep along behind me, trying to be nice, but angering every single other car in line behind. My visibility is never a problem, regardless of where I ride; the lanes are narrow, and there are very few periphel distractions to which I might blend in. On a rural road with shoulders, I ride the fog line simply to give myself space on the right. More of a comfort thing rather than a visibility or an evasive maneuver thing.

Do you find that the urban environment differs significantly from the rural highway environment? Do my observations match with yours?

[Artkansas]

This is a puzzler? On the nice shoulder of course, unless conditions dictate otherwise. (like a big ole dead deer)

It's good to know why it died, that could affect your riding.

1) Shot by a bullet, make sure you're wearing some bright orange or you may get shot too.

2) Hit by a car while Vehicular Deering. If no car or tow truck near by, all may be safe.

3) Heart Attack from an over-active rutting season. Female deer could be close, cranky and dangerous.

4) It's not dead yet. Be careful.

[Bekologist]

Vehicular Deering on rural roads is a definite worry, and one that would favor D.A.L.P.- Deer Avoidance Lane Positioning'. Livestock, however, require a different approach- L.L.C.A.T.- 'Livestock Lane Changing Avoidance Technique'.'

[chipcom]

Is it clear that one one approaching from the opposite direction around that blind corner isn't about to turn left across your path into the driveway?

Is it clear that no one approaching from behind isn't about to right cross you as they turn into their driveway?


Blind corner? That's a bit of a stretch, are we looking at the same photo?

I think it's a no-brainer that one would be paying attention to traffic coming from behind and prepared for the possibility of a right hook into the driveway, but really, on a rural road the odds are much greater that the drivers coming from behind see you and are not in such a hurry as to hook you to get into a driveway. Much more likely would be a left-turn into the drive in an attempt to beat approaching traffic, which again, based on the pic, isn't likely to happen based on the distance to the driveway and lack of approaching vehicles within view. I prefer to base my views on the situation at the moment in the pic, not on speculation and what-ifs...unless someone wants to add a what-if scenario.

[Bekologist]

The picture doesn't show the inadverdently drifting deer hidden in the bushes, chip! What if... there was a herd of drunken, horny whitetails too busy trying to score with bambi to notice a cyclist in the shoulder that is fully a third of a width of the traffic lane? Best to preemtively position yourself in the center of the traffic lane to avoid I.D.D- Inadverdantly Drifting Deer.

[chipcom]

This is my only concern with riding down the centre of the shoulder. It isn't uncommon up here for roads like this to have nice fully paved shoulders on inclines and on curves and partially paved shoulders (maybe one foot of asphalt, a couple feet of gravel) on the straights.

With a shoulder like the one in the picture, riding position for most people is a no brainer. But what about if the shoulder was narrowed to one or two feet? What do most people do with that? Personally, I don't have much experience with rural roads so I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts.


If the shoulder isn't fairly constant, I only use it to yield and stay out in the lane, as far right as I feel safe. I prefer to stay on good pavement and keep some wiggle room to my right, rather than hug the ragged edge. That could be on the line, just right of the line or just left of the line...I don't let lines dictate where I ride...at least the white ones ;) In many cases there is no line at all anyway...just a bunch of crumbling asphalt that tapers into dirt or grass. I hate riding heavily trafficked, narrow-lane, no-shoulder, 50mph+ roads - everyone is in such a darn hurry that far too many are either going to buzz you or otherwise pass unsafely. I have such roads on my commute that I have no way around. I have no choice but to take the lane and haul ass.

[chipcom]

The picture doesn't show the inadverdently drifting deer hidden in the bushes, chip! What if... there was a herd of drunken, horny whitetails too busy trying to score with bambi to notice a cyclist in the shoulder that is fully a third of a width of the traffic lane? Best to preemtively position yourself in the center of the traffic lane to avoid I.D.D- Inadverdantly Drifting Deer.

Well, since the GF seems to dope my clothes with doe piss, I would do the 'avoid becoming bambi's biatch shuffle' and haul ass in the opposite direction. :eek:

[Dchiefransom]

While we're all wondering where to be to notice and be noticed by cars, I see that nobody seems to be worried about those cyclist-seeking four legged missiles that are launched from places like the one in the picture. Was there a four legged missile silo somewhere in the yard?

[Bekologist]

No dogs at this house, but crossing the doulble yellow sometimes makes dogs think you're not going for his turf. something worth trying.

[AndrewP]

On a road curving to the right like this I would ride just to the left of the line. That would give me bettewr visibility front and back around the curve. It would also allow cars coming from the back or exiting from a driveway in front to see me earlier. If I see a car coming from behind I would move into the shoulder. If I see a car ahead coming out of the driveway I would move out into centre of the lane.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

On a road curving to the right like this I would ride just to the left of the line. That would give me bettewr visibility front and back around the curve. It would also allow cars coming from the back or exiting from a driveway in front to see me earlier. If I see a car coming from behind I would move into the shoulder. If I see a car ahead coming out of the driveway I would move out into centre of the lane.
If you were riding on the shoulder, what difference would alleged better visibility front and back around the curve do for you?

I presume if anything unexpectantly came out of the driveway, or the trees, or anywhere else you would take some sort of measured reaction, and then continue with your normal cycling; the sensible action for a cyclist to take anywhere if not cycling at a reckless speed, pacelining, or for some other reason not in control of his own ability to react safely to the cycling environment.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

While we're all wondering where to be to notice and be noticed by cars, I see that nobody seems to be worried about those cyclist-seeking four legged missiles that are launched from places like the one in the picture. Was there a four legged missile silo somewhere in the yard?
If no dogs were there, maybe it is time to start to worry about mountain lions that may be just around that "blind" curve.

Oh where, oh where to ride, when there are so many bad things that could be somewhere, just ahead, just out of sight? Maybe there is a mean cop around the corner ready to issue a citation for cycling on the shoulder; no make that a citation for cycling on the road; no make that for having a blinkie light installed. Maybe the best thing for a worrywart cyclist to do is to turn around, go home and never venture out because of all those "possible" dangers just around the bend.