Classic & Vintage - Vintage Changes As We Age!!!

Vintage is something that has aged ,a bike that is now 25 years old is vintage,a car becomes an antique after thirty,I agree that things prior to 1980 are considered vintage,you must proceed with the times ,as they are a changin!

Ok, vintage is prior to 1980 - what is classic, or classic & vintage?
My 1983 Holdsworth seems more vintage than my 1971 Italvega - hummm.

Or maybe its just old wornout ****, like my stuff...

Classic = The Who - Live at Leeds Album...

Vintage = The turntable you're still playin the platter on...

Olde ****e = The bellbottoms you wore when you went out to buy the album at the local head shop, and still have in your closet...

Or maybe its just old wornout ****, like my stuff...

Classic = The Who - Live at Leeds Album...

Vintage = The turntable you're still playin the platter on...

Olde ****e = The bellbottoms you wore when you went out to buy the album at the local head shop, and still have in your closet...

That's a groovy far-out vibe man, and I'm diggin' it.

P.S. Original reel-to-reel tape collector here.

I think with bikes (and anything, I guess) the term vintage -- in and of itself -- should point more to a specific period of time that can be documented and dated. Classic, just by the very nature of the word, should mean something that has achieved a certain level of achievement and desire in an individual -- since there are times when something becomes an "instant" classic.

Something can be vintage, but not necessarily classic.

Something can be classic (as in instant classic), and not necessarily vintage.

And, of course, both, such as:

"A classic Raleigh Professional, vintage 1974"

I'm not sure if that is the correct way to use both words, but it seems like it should be (to me, anyway).

Vintage is in the eye of the beholder. My personal line falls around 1985 or so. A 23 year old (half my age) could reasonably consider something from about 1995 to be vintage. I don't think we gain anything by trying to make strict definitions.

I agree with USAZorro. The cut off point is arbitrary and personal. Many people use 20 years. Which means that we are to the point where bicycles with indexed shifting, lugless TIG welded frames and clipless pedals are achieving vintage status. However, I suspect a large number of forum members will never consider such bicycles as vintage or classic, regardless of how old they are or who made them.
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Vintage is in the eye of the beholder. My personal line falls around 1985 or so. A 23 year old (half my age) could reasonably consider something from about 1995 to be vintage. I don't think we gain anything by trying to make strict definitions.

As soon as you look on eBay and see vintage 8 speed clusters, it challenges almost any definition of vintage bicycles.

My 1979 Suburban, in my mind, fits in as vintage easily. My 1989 Cannondale touring has 27" tires, and a freewheel (not cassette) so I can't get parts in many cases that are not considered vintage... so I call it vintage (although it is very similar to, maybe identical to, the current Cannondale touring frame).

I think (by usage) the definitoin is any bike that is old enough to not be of interest in one of the other forums.

Classic... well, I don't own anything I would consider a classic yet.

Now that we are in the 21st century it's going to make the 20th century look like the 19th century did in the 20th century.

Enjoy

Personal definitions

My 1974 RIH is both classic and vintage
the 1990 de Reus is classic (lugs, clean shorelines criterium geometry
albeit with a non classic paint job).

Better still is listening to Tommy on an AR turntable wearing
herringbone bellbottoms (do y'all get wistful seeing these younguns
running around in bells?) through a pair of Advent speakers.

Marty

Definitions can involve more than years. Methods of building, craftsmanship, materials are important. A bike with a hand-made lugged steel frame and fork, downtube or bar-end shifting, leather saddle and a leather saddle bag IS a "classic", even if you got it from Rivendell just last year.

And, I don't think a bike made with a "cookie-cutter" aluminium frame, cheapo carbon fork, and generic Shimano components will ever be a"classic"...like a 1975 Huffy, the bikes being built by the millions in communist Chinese mega-factories will simply go from being "new" generic bikes to being "old" generic bikes.

Better still is listening to Tommy on an AR turntable wearing
herringbone bellbottoms (do y'all get wistful seeing these younguns
running around in bells?) through a pair of Advent speakers.

Marty

I'd pick the old Bose headset myself......
Top
(who just discovered he could put his old vinyl on CD with the computer....)

I'd pick the old Bose headset myself......
Top
(who just discovered he could put his old vinyl on CD with the computer....)

BOSE SUCKS!

No highs, No Lows it must be Bose.

Also Tommy is released on SACD. . .

BOSE SUCKS!

No highs, No Lows it must be Bose.



Ah, but oh so vintage! and classic!
Top

in my mind vintage has to do with age and classic has to do with quality. a 1974 huffy is vintage but a 1974 bob jackson is classic!

if we are talking phones I'd say stax run
through orpheus headphone amp (tubes of course).

Top, what did you use to get analogue into computer?
new board?
marty

... P.S. Original reel-to-reel tape collector here.
I still have my Tandberg 3000XD and 9200XD. :)

...Better still is listening to Tommy...

The real question here, is which Tommy do you mean?

Both are vintage. But, in my opinion the original by The Who is classic. :)

... AR turntable ... through a pair of Advent speakers. ...

That's precisely what I had, along with a Harman-Kardon Citation IV preamp, a Citation V power amp, a Fisher KM-60 FM tuner, and a Uher 10000 tape recorder. You could heat the house with that old tube gear!

When my buddies and I redid the sound system at Wayfarers' Chapel, we couldn't resist installing Advent speakers and pointing this out to the senior pastor.

This is somewhat arbitrary, but to me, a vintage road bike predates 1985, when indexed shifting became popular. For mountain bikes, "old school" reaches into the early 1990s, with evolutionary dead ends such as chainstay-mounted brakes. Everything I ride qualifies, of course. :)

The Capo is a "classic" because of its craftsmanship and ornate lugwork, and the UO-8 may qualify, simply because a whole generation grew up with Peugeot UO-8s.

if we are talking phones I'd say stax run
through orpheus headphone amp (tubes of course).

Top, what did you use to get analogue into computer?
new board?
marty

Marty;
Card as an imput jack. It's just a matter of patching together the right patch cords to go from my old Kenwood amp into the soundcard.
After that, nero and the software that came with the card takes care of the rest.
Top
(who has a Stanton headset as well)

To me, when you say Tommy I think Tommy Dorsey - now that's both vintage and classic.

To me, when you say Tommy I think Tommy Dorsey - now that's both vintage and classic.

That was before my time, but I have to agree. I love the Big Band sound!

CR says the cutoff is 1982, unless you are referring to the Keepers of the Flame...which they have a very hard time defining. dunno what is the significance of 1982. I think any bike built by the hand of man is classic, and any one built that way is rapidly becoming vintage as well! (not to mention, exhorbitantly expensive, and with a really long waiting list, usually).

That was before my time, but I have to agree. I love the Big Band sound!

I am sure the album "Tommy" by The Who is what is meant. The newly released SACD version is really something to hear.

Although it's not my time musically I purchased The Essential Artie Shaw; which I seem to like Swing more than I thought I would. Also many of the Eseential series of recordings are re-mastered by Vic Anesini and I believe he does a great job.

Or maybe its just old wornout ****, like my stuff...

Classic = The Who - Live at Leeds Album...

Vintage = The turntable you're still playin the platter on...

Olde ****e = The bellbottoms you wore when you went out to buy the album at the local head shop, and still have in your closet...

My table is from the 90's that isn't vintage. My preamp and amp are current, but with vintage technology TUBES BABY!!! The two pairs of speakers I switch between are definately vintage and are older than I am. I have a bunch of other vintage equipment around also.

I don't own a functioning vintage bike. I have one I stripped, but don't know if it will be built because of its BB situation.

Better still is listening to Tommy on an AR turntable wearing
herringbone bellbottoms (do y'all get wistful seeing these younguns
running around in bells?) through a pair of Advent speakers.
Marty

Crazy! Just my idea of a fun Sat nite!


CR says the cutoff is 1982, ... dunno what is the significance of 1982. ... I think any bike built by the hand of man is classic, and any one built that way is rapidly becoming vintage as well! (not to mention, exhorbitantly expensive, and with a really long waiting list, usually).

Word
Keepers of the flame, like E-Richie and the rest of the FRAME BUILDERS, continue the craft that ties us directly to the 'magic carpet'. These may not be 'vintage', but certainly qualify as 'classic', even if they are modern.
Not to say that 'production' bikes aren't of value (certainly many of those we treasure are only production bikes with fancy decals), but certainly there is something special about the bike built be someone who 'communicates' with the materials and has a mental vision of the product as it glides down the road, the sprinter's lane, the single track.
Its obvious that the bicycle, like only a few other things, will be considered a high point of mankind, when reviewed many centuries from now. Its so obvious.

...Think I'll settle in with some Moody Blues 2nite...

Vintage stereos and vintage bikes go hand in hand, apparently. Cameras and guns, too?

...
Word
...certainly there is something special about the bike built be someone who 'communicates' with the materials and has a mental vision of the product as it glides down the road, the sprinter's lane, the single track.
Its obvious that the bicycle, like only a few other things, will be considered a high point of mankind, when reviewed many centuries from now. Its so obvious.

...Think I'll settle in with some Moody Blues 2nite...

very well put. I like my OCLV very much when I have to ride with the hard boys, otherwise, it'll be a bicycle made by a real human being. I know there are many who poopoo it, but I think that kind of bike rides better, and I imagine that I can feel the difference!

Vintage stereos and vintage bikes go hand in hand, apparently. Cameras and guns, too?
Oh, my yes!
Want to hear about the Zeiss-Ikon Contax kit? The '38 Rolleiflex, The Speed Graphics? 1st year production M-1911?
Top

gawd, I love it! wuzzupwiddat? Cameras, guns, bikes, stereos. They have all gone to mass-production heck, that's what! Yeah, a Glock 19 shoots better than an M-1911 (stock, of course) service revolver. An OCLV is faster than a conventional steel bike. You can drop solid-state stereos and they continue to work. And digital cameras...man, you can take thirty crappy pictures faster and cheaper than one film-based picture. Gimme analog.

Tullio pased away in early 1983. Beyond that it insures that the bikes are pre indexing, (discounting Shimano Pos-i-tron) and pre clipless pedals. For the detail oriented Cinelli did an attempt at clipless in the 70's but they were/are scary.

Friction and clips and prior. I think one can make a case for C Record, but one must admit it started the "current" look of components from the major mfgs. And was Valentino's baby it has been stated, the next generation.

In the future, the purchased and put away Carbon fibre bikes will be worth something, too easy to make the frames or components fabricated with it as a planned obsolescence item.

The real question here, is which Tommy do you mean?

Other that the original LP, 2 disks, pressed by Decca or possibly the Mobile Fidelity
version (again LP), is there any other? (no 1975 or the show don't count).

Currently playing with bottlehead stuff, thinking about building
phono pre (tubed of course). Only problem is I'm absolutely
in love with the sound of my Sonus Faber speakers, 35wpc minimum for
decent sound. . . sigh no 2A3s for christmas this year.

1983 and CR, I've heard Tullio passing as the reason, the beginning
of MTBs and indexing. I personally believe Dale picked 1983 as last
year due to fact that it's the year Campy went from World logo's to
sheild logo's on the brake hoods. . .

marty

I personally believe Dale picked 1983 as last
year due to fact that it's the year Campy went from World logo's to
sheild logo's on the brake hoods. . .

marty

Sounds reasonable, the Classic rendezvous site graphics no longer show a beginning or termination date. A migration?

How about the introduction of cartridge bearings? (My current pet peeve).
Top

Top,

I believe that cartridge bearings were around alot before 82 or 83. . .
my viscount (mid to late 70's) had cartridge bearings.

marty

BOSE SUCKS!

No highs, No Lows it must be Bose.

Also Tommy is released on SACD. . .


dude.... I am at work right now and I had to laugh

no high no low it must be Bose that is the best line I've heard all day

and I cant agreed with you more.

/edit/

Currently playing with bottlehead stuff, thinking about building
phono pre (tubed of course). Only problem is I'm absolutely
in love with the sound of my Sonus Faber speakers, 35wpc minimum for
decent sound. . . sigh no 2A3s for christmas this year.

/edit/
marty

Paramour or Paramount? I run the Paramour's myself. I also have a set of the original ParaS.E.X. that launch Bottlehead, but one isn't working unfortunately. But, I sure don't have a 35wpc minimum on my Altec Valencias. I heard a pair of the SF Concerto's (Ithink that is the model) and I was impressed the short demo I got.

Personal definitions

Better still is listening to Tommy on an AR turntable wearing
herringbone bellbottoms (do y'all get wistful seeing these younguns
running around in bells?) through a pair of Advent speakers.

Marty

I still have my turntable, AND my Advent utility speakers. classics, and vintage 1978.

Looking around, I count 10 vacuum tube receivers and 5 SS receivers (not counting the 5 or 6 Hallicrafters communication receivers downstairs and I forgot the 6 or is it 7 Zenith Trans-Oceanic radios). I repair vacuum tube radios and seem to just keep them - they all work and are sort of restored. And of course the turn-table and records in the other room plus a bunch of speakers - some I've built (Karlsons). Old (vintage) stuff is great.
By the way the M-1911 is a pistol not a revolver.

yah. that's what late night wine will do for you. I actually qualified with a service 45. was a combat engineer when I was in the aaaamy. I hated that gun, and traded it to a helicopter pilot for a 38 revolver at the first opportunity. Not as much knockdown, but at least I could hit what I was aiming at. The 45 was only good, in my hands, as a throwing weapon.

hey guys - if this thread keeps straying so far off topic, the mods are gonna step in. ;)

well, geez. The topic is pretty broad, dontchathink?

The really interesting thing, to me, is what all of these objects: guns, cameras, cars, and (apparently) especially bicycles and stereos, have in common. Not to short anyone else's interests, either, I think you could add to the category...like, say, watches. There are a lot of people that build an old bicycle up because it is neat, and they have a nice rider for Sundays. That is how I started. But I'll bet that almost everyone who participates in this forum have multiple older bicycles. And, multiple older stereos. and...whatever else.

Vintage changes as we age...and this interest goes beyond nostalgia, the desire to have it as it once was. So, then, what is it, exactly?

well, geez. The topic is pretty broad, dontchathink?

The really interesting thing, to me, is what all of these objects: guns, cameras, cars, and (apparently) especially bicycles and stereos, have in common. Not to short anyone else's interests, either, I think you could add to the category...like, say, watches. There are a lot of people that build an old bicycle up because it is neat, and they have a nice rider for Sundays. That is how I started. But I'll bet that almost everyone who participates in this forum have multiple older bicycles. And, multiple older stereos. and...whatever else.

Vintage changes as we age...and this interest goes beyond nostalgia, the desire to have it as it once was. So, then, what is it, exactly?

Toys!

I am into(deep) Amature Radio, Electronics, Flyfishing, Music, Guitars. I just recently came off of a audiophile Super Audio CD(SACD) and headphone bender ;) and now it's back to bicycles. Fun stuff!

I already have stepped in. . .
as KB would say it's all good until someone complains :wink:

Redxj I'm just running foreplay currently, been thinking of paramours
but I just can't give up the SF Concertos (had concertinos before that),
I've never been a horn loaded fan (even big klipsch don't do it for me).
I have heard some lowthers that were awfully nice but I have neither
space not inclination for that.
I prefer double action to single action. The Glocks are nice but for
me a sig-sauer just feels right, Barettas ain't bad either.

Marty

L
By the way the M-1911 is a pistol not a revolver.
Very true. The M-1917 Colt next to it in the case is a revolver.
I think the thing about old cameras, watches, firearms, electronics, and bikes is that they represent the high point of western industrial art, where items were designed to last, engineered for mass production, made of the best materials available, and always pushing the state of the art in all the above catagories.
Then the marketing mooks and beancounters took over from the engineers and inventors and the rest is history, sadly.
Top

oh, let's say a high point in western industrial art. And even then you have to leave out the hand craftsmen. I'm looking at a Don Walker frame that I just received...if ever a frame deserves the label of pure steel Art, this is the one. I'll start a thread and show y'all when I get it cleaned up a little...

Oh, and yeah, I think you are right...we seem to be all about marketing and spin in western design, generally. May just be that we are trying to outfit so many people all at once...

Always a market for the craftsman, always will be.
As long as your pockets are deep enough......
Top

I shot pistols/revolvers competitively for a long time. The two stand-outs are the 1911 (single stack, customized some but still "limited"), and the S&W M41 .22. I've shot Glocks - tactical tupperware. Sigs are nice, H&K's are unbalanced.

I am a 1911 bigot. It is the pistol of choice, were I to pick just one. Hands down, no hesitation.Now, if I had to carry it concealed, I might change my mind....... :D

Vintage high end bicycles and vintage high end stereos. Two hobbies that don't mix. I still have my stereo gear from the early 1970s, with the addition of a CD player. The wife has actually encouraged me to upgrade the stereo several times, but it would be money down the drain, as the constnat wind noise from decades of cycling has decimated the hearing.

That's a groovy far-out vibe man, and I'm diggin' it.

P.S. Original reel-to-reel tape collector here.

I think with bikes (and anything, I guess) the term vintage -- in and of itself -- should point more to a specific period of time that can be documented and dated. Classic, just by the very nature of the word, should mean something that has achieved a certain level of achievement and desire in an individual -- since there are times when something becomes an "instant" classic.

Something can be vintage, but not necessarily classic.

Something can be classic (as in instant classic), and not necessarily vintage.

And, of course, both, such as:

"A classic Raleigh Professional, vintage 1974"

I'm not sure if that is the correct way to use both words, but it seems like it should be (to me, anyway).

that was well said... and I think what determins the term vintage, is a longing that prefers the old world craftsmenship, to the massed produced new world (lets see if we can capture maximum profit) mentality that seams to rain supreme among manufatures in our time.......