Look(ing) for the union label

[rachmiel99]

Ok -- since this is the advocacy forum, I figured I'd get the best response here.

New to the cycling thing . . . . a little stupefied by the cost of clothes and gear. At these prices, the workers should be getting a cut.

Anybody know which companies pay living wages, and/or have unionized factories?

Thanks . . .

[Savas]

You won't find too much sympathy here. Lots are out to get the cheapest possible price for bicycles and gear. This precludes thoughts of unions or whether the goods are made here in the US. Just like almost every other area of merchandise. Unions are going down the drain fast and have been for quite some time.

[FLBandit]

Yeah, Unions time have pretty much past.

[Dchiefransom]

Yeah, Unions time have pretty much past.

That's right. Pensions, health care, and other benefits are "dropping like flies". No unions needed here.

[DCCommuter]

Regardless of the name brand, nearly all bicycles and components are now made in Taiwan or China. If a bike says "Made in USA" it means that the frame and possibly the fork are American made, and it was assembled in the US with imported components. Except for boutique items, components -- which make up the majority of the cost of a bike -- are no longer manufactured in this country. If you want to bike, you have to ride Chinese or Taiwanese.

Working conditions -- and environmental and safety conditions -- are not good in the Asian factories.

[Da Tinker]

Bike specific clothing is high priced partialy due to economies of scale. Sell only a few items, R&D costs, advertising costs, and the like get spread over fewer units, thus increasing the unit cost. Plus, much of such stuff is highly technical, both fabrics & construction consting more than your average Hanes Beefy Tee.

(Shrugs & dons Nomex coveralls)

In their day, unions were a great thing, forcing large employeers to grant decent wages, safe working conditions, decent level of benefits, getting laws protecting he workers passed. But the day of the labor union has bassed, and I believe the beginning of the end was when union shop rep became a paying position, rather than one taken by a driven, caring, motivated individual.

Look around the country, some of the highest paying jobs are union jobs, but those industries are either in competitive trouble with international competition, or on government life support. Or both. A former brother-in-law had a union job, with a far better hourly wage than I made at the time. But due to higher rates for union benefits, dues & frequent strikes, I netted more at the end of the year.

Have you seen the obscene salaries high union officials make?

Got your transportation contingency plan ready in case of a transit strike?

Your heart is in the right place. Just research where the stuff is made & conditions there, rather than if it is a union shop.

[linux_author]

- i used to belong to the textile workers union back in the mid-70s... worked in a textile factory in Hazleton, Pa. for a year...

- the union there did NOTHING but collect dues... no bargaining, no bettering of conditions... there were hundreds of health-related incidents and problems for workers in the plant (imagine dangerous machinery, constant dust in the air w/no filtering, contact dermatitis, infections, etc.)...

- i'll never forget the shift supervisor urging me to quit college (i worked 10 p.m. to 6 a.m., then went to school full time during the day) - he said he'd make me a loom fixer w/a whopping pay increase of $0.80 an hour to, IIRC, $2.35 an hour! - i laughed in his face...

- after school let out for summer, i got a job as a chef down at the southern NJ beaches... left the textile job w/no notice... a few weeks later the local union shop sent me a threatening letter - not because i quit, but because i didn't continue paying dues! they threatened that i would 'never work in the industry again'... what a joke!

- unions, yeah right!

[CommuterRun]

Unions are pricing themselves right out of most markets. Have been for years, now. That's why so many jobs are, and have been, moving overseas and why there's so much whining and crying about NAFTA, et.al.

How much do workers get paid when the job is gone?

[Bekologist]

I don't know if it's union, but all my Ibex cycling clothing bears a "made in the USA" label. wether these are stitched up in Vermont, or off shore in an "American trade zone" i don't know.

Ibex cycling shorts cost 90 bucks and I'm happy to pay it. Besides their country of manufacture, they're the best bicycling shorts ever made.

[supcom]

Many cycling items are not high priced. There is a widse range of prices for similar items depending on many factors.

Looking at the retail cost of an item and assuming that the manufacturer of that item is making a large profit on the item is probably a faulty assumption. If you had the data, you would probably find that competition to get themanufacturing contracts requires the factory to price the items with a fair profit margin. As the item moves through the supply chain, it may be marked up several times before finally getting to the retailer. Once in your LBS, the item may be marked up more than double what the LBS paid for it. This is especially true for accessories and clothing. Bikes and big ticket items are marked up far less.

Curiously, I noticed that the OP does does not have a red star next to his username. I would have thought that someone so concerned about people getting fair compensation for their labors would be sure that the guy who devotes so much time toward the care and feeding of this valuable resource was adequately reimbursed for his efforts.

[ItsJustMe]

New to the cycling thing . . . . a little stupefied by the cost of clothes and gear. At these prices, the workers should be getting a cut.

Anybody know which companies pay living wages, and/or have unionized factories?

J&G Cyclewear is made in the US at least. Probably not unionized, but I don't personally believe that unions are necessary to get reasonable wages, if a person is willing to put the work in to making themselves a valuable asset.

I don't think unions are in good shape. I live in SE Michigan, and it's pretty obvious that the unions are killing themselves. They're insisting on big salaries and pensions for line workers, and more and more, companies simply can't afford it. Some pensions have already collapsed, and I think a bunch more will eventually. The unions that don't let their benefits come back into line with reality are eventually going to find all their jobs moved offshore.

[patc]

Unions? I've lost many a job due to unions, not a one has helped me though. To me unions have very negative associations. As in, "oh, the bus driver's contracts are up, they'll threaten to strike again." Or, "oh, the teacher's contracts are up...."

One of the big issues I see with unions locally is an unrealistic expectation of what employers can provide. No one else has job security, protection from layoffs, or big pay hikes every year. Yet unions - particularly those representing the civil service - seem to think they can still demand these things. So city hall is busy cutting essential services to meet the demands of unions. Great. Personally I would much rather negotiate my own contracts, and that is exactly what I did for every job I had until I became self-employed.

I do see the other side of the equation, though. Hi-tech workers here are treated like crap, and are very much in need of someone looking out for their interests.

As to the original post, I admit to giving little thought to the employees who made a product I buy. I do look for a "made in Canada" label, though, though I seldom find it.

[jakub.ner]

Unions? ... I do see the other side of the equation, though. Hi-tech workers here are treated like crap, and are very much in need of someone looking out for their interests.

Yea... though the work is interesting so that makes up for unrealistic schedules... don't think it's possible to unionize a software company, all of the sudden everyone is a manager :D. I like socialist ideals but hate corruption and laziness.

[rachmiel99]

So supcom: if I pay $25, will you answer the f****** question? Or give me more, "It may be," "don't assume," etc. I was looking for an answer, not a lecture.

At least patc is honest: "I admit to giving little thought to the employees who made a product I buy."

Since I've gotten my bike last month, my friends have teased me about hanging out with yuppies who only care about wearing clownish tights and sipping lattes with their high-tech friends . . .

I said, "no, man, bike people really seem to care about stuff -- nature, the environment, health ..."

Of course, none of that includes actual people.

I'm sorry if it's boring to talk about someone making 30 cents an hour . . . why bother when we can talk about carbon-fiber seat-post covers, right?

. . . easier to blame some union guy in the 70s who was corrupt . . . I once knew a teacher who hit a kid, so I guess we should get rid of schools . . .

Ask your pals at WalMart if they dig their great jobs . . . when they're making 100 times what the people who assemble the crap they sell bring home . . . that is, if they have a home, assuming they aren't forced to live at the factory, work 18 hour shifts, prevented from using the bathroom, and forced to run laps around the plant for "insubordination" . . .

Who's up for a protein shake?

[Bekologist]

cogent, rach....I'm one of those that cares, regardless of how miniscule an impact one consumer can have.... I'd recc to just try Ibex - wool is earth friendly, regardless of the impact electric sheep shearers may have ;), and its made in the USA- I think that's about as good as it gets, unless you buy exclusively thrift store garb to minimize the environmental cost of manufacturing and distribution from buying brand new consumer goods...

[patc]

Yea... though the work is interesting so that makes up for unrealistic schedules... don't think it's possible to unionize a software company, all of the sudden everyone is a manager :D. I like socialist ideals but hate corruption and laziness.

I describe myself as a socialist libertarian. There should be laws enforcing a reasonable standard for wages, workplaces, etc. Beyond that I want the power to deal with my employer as an individual (not that it matter now, I'm self-employed).

[patc]

So supcom: if I pay $25, will you answer the f****** question? Or give me more, "It may be," "don't assume," etc. I was looking for an answer, not a lecture.

At least patc is honest: "I admit to giving little thought to the employees who made a product I buy."

....

I'm sorry if it's boring to talk about someone making 30 cents an hour . . . why bother when we can talk about carbon-fiber seat-post covers, right?

I think you are mixing two issues which, while related, are not synonymous. Contemporary unions in western countries have little to do (today) with human rights issues such the abuse of employees we see in many countries, particularly those we egotistically cal the "third world". Further I don't believe that the minor impact my shopping habits have many any difference whatsoever in the grand scheme of things. I bough one new set of tires this year, do you really think it made any difference at all what country those were made in? Compare that to, say, buying coffee- something I do weekly.

I'm not saying that we can't change the world - we can - just that we have to keep our actions in perspective. "Every little bit helps" may be a great in some cases, but in others you just end up with an insignificant pile of bits. If you want to improve conditions for workers in other countries, you need to look at the political front: trade agreements that include conditions of transparency and fair treatment for the workers.

[banerjek]

I think you are mixing two issues which, while related, are not synonymous. Contemporary unions in western countries have little to do (today) with human rights issues such the abuse of employees we see in many countries, particularly those we egotistically cal the "third world".
Bingo. I'm in a union shop right now, and here's my basic take -- they're just another kind of corporation looking out for themselves and their richest members.

In union contracts, you'll commonly find clauses that base pay on amount of time in the system (and any effort to tie pay to productivity will be fought vigorusly), "seniority language" -- this means that new people get laid off first regardless of how good they are and opportunities are guaranteed to people simply based on how long they've been drawing a check. There are many other common provisions that direct benefits to "experienced" people at the expense of lowest paid employees. And, it's practically a guarantee that the union will fight like heck to keep management from firing crummy employees who give us all a bad name. Meanwhile everyone whines how exploited they are, but they're not willing to look for another job and we have huge waiting lists of people begging for a job.

I can only speak for my own environment, but where I work the union helps management separate the wheat from the chaff and chuck the wheat. A disproportionate percentage of the good people leave after awhile, but the real dead wood stays forever because it's an easy ride and they'll never get paid better elsewhere.

I try my best to support businesses that treat people and the environment right, but I don't think it's necessary to buy union to do this. Unions look out for themselves, and few care if they screw others in the process. There are unions that do good things, but others are actually part of the problem. The people who need representation the most will never get it.

Besides, there are lots of great nonunion businesses.

[Poppaspoke]

Unions are pricing themselves right out of most markets. Have been for years, now. That's why so many jobs are, and have been, moving overseas and why there's so much whining and crying about NAFTA, et.al.

How much do workers get paid when the job is gone?
Who will be buying your goods when the shrinking middle class can no longer afford more than a subsistence living? Even with a two-income family (often with one parent holding down two jobs) people are barely keeping up. Just as the communist system collapsed of its own inefficiencies, the current iteration of the capitalist system is going down fast. At some point, and that time is closer than you think), the majority of the people in this country are going to realize that they have been believing lies. The corrupted versions of Adam Smith that are being hawked by the neocons are not going to cut it, period. What will replace it is hard to predict, but we are in for a long, hard period of readjustment, a la East Germany.

[Roody]

All you union haters: Please surrender your 40 hour weeks, your health benefits, your paid vacations, your high wages, and all the other benefits that union members fought and even died for. If you like seeing the good jobs go overseas, bust the unions and line up for a job at Walmart.

To the OP: Your union education committee could help you find the source of union-made products. I know offhand that Ray-o-vac batteries are union made and are usually chaper than the batteries made overseas by Duracell and Eveready. How do you union haters suppose that happened?

[jakub.ner]

How do you union haters suppose that happened?

I'd guess market forces and lack of branding? I don't recall ever seeing a Rayovac commercial.

[Bekologist]

roody, the usefulness in unions lobbying for the rights of all workers is about a hundred years past date, bro....


why don't unions get of their collective arses and lobby for rights for all american workers again, like fighting for unified health care for all workers, a protection of social security benefits, and give up some of they 'proprietary' workers' rights only due the star-bellied union members?

I heckle all union strikers, you hosers! Go get a job at MickeyDee's if your 25 bucks an hour and generous benefits package isn't good enough for you all.

21st century unions, operating with 20th century value systems, are going to break the back of the American economy, if they haven't already done so....

[Roody]

J&G Cyclewear is made in the US at least. Probably not unionized, but I don't personally believe that unions are necessary to get reasonable wages, if a person is willing to put the work in to making themselves a valuable asset. Unions were started for the simple reason that good workers were not being fairly compensated. Where is a person to make these "reasonable wages?" Walmart? Workers at Kroger and Meijers make far more than Walmart workers because they are unionized. But Meijers and Kroger both compete succssfully with Walmart. How do you explain that?


I don't think unions are in good shape. I live in SE Michigan, and it's pretty obvious that the unions are killing themselves. They're insisting on big salaries and pensions for line workers, and more and more, companies simply can't afford it. Some pensions have already collapsed, and I think a bunch more will eventually. The unions that don't let their benefits come back into line with reality are eventually going to find all their jobs moved offshore.
Those companies have been mismanaged by overcompensated executives for 30 or 40 years now. GM and its offshoot, Delphi are prime examples. How do you complain about a worker getting $15 or $20 an hour when some CEO gets millions to run the company into the ground? How can you blame a union for the way a company is managed? Did you know that unions are not part of management? Unions represent workers, and try to get adequate compensation for workers. But modern unions are very aware that they must cooperate with management to make the companies that employ them strong and competetive.

The main reason that US workers' benefits are so expensive, compared to other countries, is that in other countries, the government provides most health care and pension benefits. The US is one of the few countries where private businesses must provide these benefits to workers. The Republicans do not want government to provide benefits, and they also do not want corporations to provide them. Where do they expect these benefits to come from?

Your opinions are based on very outdated and inaccurate information. If you are interested, I will find some more accurate data for you.

[trackhub]

roody, the usefulness in unions lobbying for the rights of all workers is about a hundred years past date, bro....


why don't unions get of their collective arses and lobby for rights for all american workers again, like fighting for unified health care for all workers, a protection of social security benefits, and give up some of they 'proprietary' workers' rights only due the star-bellied union members?

I heckle all union strikers, you hosers! Go get a job at MickeyDee's if your 25 bucks an hour and generous benefits package isn't good enough for you all.

21st century unions, operating with 20th century value systems, are going to break the back of the American economy, if they haven't already done so....

How many years have you been in the workforce?

[Roody]

roody, the usefulness in unions lobbying for the rights of all workers is about a hundred years past date, bro....


why don't unions get of their collective arses and lobby for rights for all american workers again, like fighting for unified health care for all workers, a protection of social security benefits, and give up some of they 'proprietary' workers' rights only due the star-bellied union members?

I heckle all union strikers, you hosers! Go get a job at MickeyDee's if your 25 bucks an hour and generous benefits package isn't good enough for you all.

21st century unions, operating with 20th century value systems, are going to break the back of the American economy, if they haven't already done so....Unions spend millions lobbying for the issues you mentioned. That's why Republicans don't like them. Unions are probably the only organized voice lobbying fo these interests. If these issues are important to you, you should join a union.

[linux_author]

[snip] ... If these issues are important to you, you should join a union.

- best insight here, IMO... interesting that union membership and influence has been dwindling - seems obvious that many workers just don't care... i wonder why?

Here are some stats on union membership from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.toc.htm)

[Bekologist]

Roody, if unions are so strong at representing all worker's rights, Americans would have unified health care like the rest of the organized world. Would have got it during the clinton administration. but no, it's all about fighting to protect union pensions.

Unions don't give a squat about my unorganized rights.

Do unions fight for increases in the minimium wage? Ask your union rep for an honest anwser, and they'd tell you it's not part of their lobby platform.... sorry for all us american workers not working in an entitled trade or civil service job (there's a lot of pork in that barrel, just look around the next time you have to go do some filing at the courthouse).... a huge amount of burecratic waste masquerades as civil service jobs.

Grocery store workers in unions are increasingly being worked at part time to combat their benefits. That's a direct example of unions hurting the very workers they are supposed to protect. Not to mention the rest of the American workforce.

[Roody]

- best insight here, IMO... interesting that union membership and influence has been dwindling - seems obvious that many workers just don't care... i wonder why?

Here are some stats on union membership from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.toc.htm)
In my experience, people have a negative opinion of unions because they believe that a union is an outside organization that comes in to the work place and tries to run things. Actually, a union local is a group of coworkers who band together in order to bargain for better compensation and working conditions. They do not try to run the company, they try to make the company treat them more fairly.

Most people do not realize that any company in America can fire any worker for any reason or for no reason. There are only two exceptions. First, you can not be fired for membership in a protected group, such as race, sex or religion. (Unions were in the vanguard of the struggles for those laws.)Second, you can not be fired if you have a contract with your employer, and that contract stipulates conditions for firing you. Unless you are a movie star, the only way you will get a contract with an employer is to bargain for it with your coworkers in a union.

Union representation is the best and usually the only job protection you can have in America.

[Dchiefransom]

Unions spend millions lobbying for the issues you mentioned. That's why Republicans don't like them. Unions are probably the only organized voice lobbying fo these interests. If these issues are important to you, you should join a union.

Many unions are part of a bigger umbrella organization. Mine is part of the AFL-CIO. We also lobby heavily for these items, and had to establish our own PAC to do it, since we as a union were forbidden by law.

[FurflyOne]

buy Cannondale!!! it's still American-made as far as I know... just for that fact, I try to buy it when I can... seems to be higher-quality as well, but that may be just me...

[Poppaspoke]

Grocery store workers in unions are increasingly being worked at part time to combat their benefits. That's a direct example of unions hurting the very workers they are supposed to protect. Not to mention the rest of the American workforce.
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, the fact that companies are doing end runs around adhereing to their contract obligations is the fault of the unions? It's the psychology of the wife-beater: you're pushing me beyond me endurance limit, so you get what you deserve.

[Roody]

Roody, if unions are so strong at representing all worker's rights, Americans would have unified health care like the rest of the organized world. Would have got it during the clinton administration. but no, it's all about fighting to protect union pensions.

Unions don't give a squat about my unorganized rights.

Do unions fight for increases in the minimium wage? Ask your union rep for an honest anwser, and they'd tell you it's not part of their lobby platform.... sorry for all us american workers not working in an entitled trade or civil service job (there's a lot of pork in that barrel, just look around the next time you have to go do some filing at the courthouse).... a huge amount of burecratic waste masquerades as civil service jobs.

Grocery store workers in unions are increasingly being worked at part time to combat their benefits. That's a direct example of unions hurting the very workers they are supposed to protect. Not to mention the rest of the American workforce.

I am sorry, but you are mistaken. The UAW, my union, lobbies strongly for increases in the minimum wage. Here is a UAW position paper (http://www.uaw.org/cap/05/issues/issue08.cfm) on that and other issues. Maybe it is the union's fault that they have not been successful in leading the strugle for progressive legislation, but I doubt it.

It is an error to say that it's the union's fault that grocery store workers are being worked at part time. Obviously, unions would want those workers to be full-time, with full benefits. It is management that determines work hours, not unions.

Don't feel bad. A lot of people have trouble understanding the distinction between unions and management, as this thread has demonstrated over and over. Simply put, unions try to benefit workers first. Managements try to benefit shareholders first. Which side you support is up to you, but please try to understand that distinction.

By the way, in response to another's post, many so-called "managers" are actually workers. Companies have discovered that a lot of workers will give up much in pay, benefits, and especially working conditions, in exchange for a nice title. That is those workers' option. I certainly have no quarrel with them if they don't mind working 60 hours a week without the time-and-a-half compensation that I receive as a union worker.

[ItsJustMe]

All you union haters: Please surrender your 40 hour weeks, your health benefits, your paid vacations, your high wages, and all the other benefits that union members fought and even died for. If you like seeing the good jobs go overseas, bust the unions and line up for a job at Walmart.

Nobody has to bust the unions. They're doing it to themselves. Certainly when unions first started, they were fighting against conditions that we can't even imagine now. In many industries, especially textile workers that this thread is about, they are still necessary.

I don't hate unions, but neither do I see them as necessary in all fields. I'm a programmer, and I would not work at a union shop. That's because I am damn good at what I do, I work hard to continually make myself more valuable to my employer, and I don't want to be tied to a contract based on an "average" worker - I'd be doing myself a disservice, and honestly, I'd probably not have much incentive to work as hard as I do to excel, and I don't really want to get to retirement, look back, and say "well, that was adequate."

The big problem is that businesses are not facing a level playing field. They are selling products against foreign competition that does not have to meet the same environmental and other standards, using workers who do not have the same quality of living.

It may be that the playing fields should be forcibly levelled, using tarriffs, or whatever. But until that happens, unions demanding pay and benefits that companies simply can't afford are just shooting themselves in the foot.

A whole lot of pension funds are going to go belly-up in the next 10 or so years. There are going to be A LOT of retirees working at Wal*Mart; but a lot of them are going to be ex-union guys who had a pension at a place that the unions drove into bankruptcy.

This is a WAY bigger problem than medicare, but politicians will NOT touch it or even talk about it, because there's no solution that the unions are going to like.

I don't know if it's just perception, I'm no union expert, but it certainly seems to me like unions are still treating the businesses they work with as enemies rather than partners.

Unions can survive, but they need to be realistic. People who have been overpaid for decades are going to have to take pay cuts, and the pay is probably NOT going to go back up again. Pay raises based on merit instead of seniority (a stupid idea if there ever was one) would be a great improvement too, but I suspect the unions would actually sooner die.

I put away my own money for retirement. I knew even when I was in high school that if I wanted any money for retirement, I'd better save it myself. If I were in a union, I'd be worried, because I don't think that any pension maintained by a company that's tied to unions is safe.

[Cyclepath]

Unions are pricing themselves right out of most markets. Have been for years, now. That's why so many jobs are, and have been, moving overseas and why there's so much whining and crying about NAFTA, et.al.

How much do workers get paid when the job is gone?

Clearly there is no way that US workers, unionized or not, can compete with slave & semi-slave labor elsewhere in the world. If US consumers want to subsidize evil by buying from such nations, that is their choice. Unfortunately "free trade" does not include freedom for Americans to work; it's just a way for the bosses to collect free cash.

NAFTA & CAFTA have also proved disastrous, economically & in terms of human rights, to workers in the less industrialized countries. Among other sources, especially workers' sources in the nations involved, see:

http://www.economyincrisis.org/article_10.html

[Dchiefransom]

roody, the usefulness in unions lobbying for the rights of all workers is about a hundred years past date, bro....


why don't unions get of their collective arses and lobby for rights for all american workers again, like fighting for unified health care for all workers, a protection of social security benefits, and give up some of they 'proprietary' workers' rights only due the star-bellied union members?

I heckle all union strikers, you hosers! Go get a job at MickeyDee's if your 25 bucks an hour and generous benefits package isn't good enough for you all.

21st century unions, operating with 20th century value systems, are going to break the back of the American economy, if they haven't already done so....

The unions ARE fighting for those things, but some are not allowed to use any of their money to push for them. Since unions only make up about 15% of the workforce now, why are the rest of you waiting for us to do it all? Form your own PAC and start lobbying.
My union has "rap sessions" around the country with members of Congress, but everything has to be paid for by individual donations. This is $5 a payday for me.
If we had unified health care, then the unions wouldn't have to fight for that on an individual basis. What people that want health care for everyone have to overcome is that those that already have it don't want the level of what they have to decrease. They are not ready to make that sacrifice.

[linux_author]

I put away my own money for retirement. I knew even when I was in high school that if I wanted any money for retirement, I'd better save it myself. If I were in a union, I'd be worried, because I don't think that any pension maintained by a company that's tied to unions is safe.

- at that is the crux of the matter? it's about money and personal responsibility...

- i'd buy bicycles, bike accessories, and bicycle garments made in a union shop (and in the U.S.), but such a business doesn't seem possible in today's business climate... i'd assume (being a naive consumer) that a union-made bike or bike garmet would be superior in quality - but i guess that's not always the case? and how many U.S. bike frame makers run a union shop? ABG is union? Surly? Cannondale?

(and yes, like you, i took steps in my life to assure my own independent, and diversified retirement schema)

[Cyclepath]

Also, people can refuse to subsidize the Stalinist Chinese bosses, for example, by buying an older used bike instead of a new Beijing product. Or, even a used Beijing bike, since they get no profit from a used item.

[thekorn]

I don't know much about unions, but I'll use K2 as an example- used to manufacture their products in Vashon Island, Washington. They now manufacture in China. Their products are not less expensive to consumers now. I doubt they are paying their workers in China the difference. So guess where the profits are going.
Whenever possible, I buy products that are made by people with decent jobs and benefits. It is getting harder and harder to do.

[banerjek]

New to the cycling thing . . . . a little stupefied by the cost of clothes and gear. At these prices, the workers should be getting a cut.

Anybody know which companies pay living wages, and/or have unionized factories?
If you look at the OP's question, s/he thinks cycling threads and equipment are spendy enough that a couple bucks should be going towards the workers. The wording of the question does not require union made.

I checked a few of the lists containing the best companies to work for, the folks who make cycling stuff weren't visible. Maybe cycling is still too much of a niche market or maybe costs are just high. There are plenty of companies that produce a quality product but still go out of business.

Does anyone on BF steer business towards particular outfits because of the way they treat their workers?

[jakub.ner]

buy Cannondale!!! it's still American-made as far as I know... just for that fact, I try to buy it when I can... seems to be higher-quality as well, but that may be just me...

ditto for Arkel (alright, it's made in Canada, but we're all good friends), doesn't look like they need a union:

http://www.arkel-od.com/who/team.asp?fl=1&site=cdn

[a77impala]

I have said for many years this is the only country in the world people will put their neighbor out of work just to save a few pennies. Everyone wants to make $100,00 a year but they don't think anyone else should make a living wage. We are in the WalMarting phase of our country, how do you suppose this country will survive when everyone is reduced to WalMart wages. Why are American workers expected to compete with the Chinese and other third world workers?
The manufacturing industries have been shipping jobs overseas for thirty years and now within the last few years the service industries are following them. People have to realize not everyone can be a Maytag repairman.
Finally I believe the main reason for this exiting of jobs is greed, from the CEO to the WalMart shopper everyone wants something for nothing. It has gotten to the point where it is almost impossible to find anything Made in the USA.
Getting back to bikes, ten years ago most Treks were made here, now most are imported and I am sure other bike companies are the same or they don't even exist anymore.

[Fredmertz51]

Perhaps you should spend a winter day reading about working conditions back in 1925. Then go to your employer, who ever they are, and volunteer to work the same hours and in the same conditions. They will probably let you.

[roccobike]

Does ebay have a union? I buy all my biking cloths used. I can't afford new.

[supcom]

So supcom: if I pay $25, will you answer the f****** question? Or give me more, "It may be," "don't assume," etc. I was looking for an answer, not a lecture.


Well, you said that you posted in this forum so it would get more discussion...

As for an answer, If you go to rivendell bikes web page, they have some cycling clothes (not lycra) made in the USA, Italy, sometimes Canada or other "first World" countries where thare is probably at least a minimum wage. Whether these companies pay a "living wage" I have no idea, but you can get their names from the Rivendell web site and call them up on the telephone and ask them yourself and not have to rely on second or third hand information from people you don't know on an internet forum. Then, when you get the answer, why don't you come back here and tell all of us?

As far as equipment goes, if you buy your bike from a custom bike builder in the US who designs and builds the bikes in the US, you can be pretty sure that most of the employees who build the bikes are getting paid more than the minimum wage. Of course, you will pay a lot more for the bike than you will for a Giant made in Taiwan, but you will get a very nice bike. Sadly for you, the components will almost certainly be made overseas in some sweatshop, but maybe if you go with a fixie you'll at least minimize the number of expoited workers required to build your bike.

Nitto makes bery good components like handlebars stems, and bottle cages. These are made in Japan. I don't know what they pay their workers, but Grant Peterson had an article in the Rivendell Reader showing a lot of skilled craftsmen/women who probably make consedably more than the Chinese slave laborers. Nitto stuff is not cheap, but it is first quality.

There are component makers in the US like Fox who makes Front and rear suspension components. These are still made in the US. Maybe Fox will tell you their average factory wage (though I doubt it) but I think they are in California and probably pay considerably more than minimum wage to most of their employees.

You might ask Chris King where they make there excellent headsets and hubs. Perhaps they make them in the US? I don't have any of their stuff so I don't know. Oops, sorry, you wanted answers only. Scratch all that!

You might check where Campy stuff is made. Campy is an Italian company, but that doesn't mean they make their stuff in Italy. There's surely a Campy fan here that knows where their stuff comes from. If it's Italy, then you have a good chance of getting your drivetrain from a company that pays a living wage. Once again, you'll need to contact them to ask the question about wages and hoe they are in a good mood.

So, I've given you some answers. Now how about supporting the forum?

[trackhub]

All you union haters: Please surrender your 40 hour weeks, your health benefits, your paid vacations, your high wages, and all the other benefits that union members fought and even died for. If you like seeing the good jobs go overseas, bust the unions and line up for a job at Walmart.


You missed one Roody. If the Union bashers are going to get rid of all unions in this country, and all the advancements gained by the labor movement over the last century, then they can also get rid of being paid in American money. Fact: Long ago, a lot of big companies paid their workers not in money, but in company scrip (http://www.mcintyrepa.com/Scrip.htm), a form of company issued currency that could only be used at the company store. Frequently, the company would also own all the housing available to workers. In other words, total and absolute control of the worker. To all the union bashers: Is this how you want to live? Did you know about this dark little piece of history?

I have worked in a union shop for the past eight years, after having worked in non-union shops for most of my working life. I'll agree that there are good unions and bad ones. I'll also agree that unions must realize that this is 2005, not 1955. They must further realize that we now live in a global economy.

For those interested persons, my union operates this way:

Stewards and officers are normal employees, like everyone else. When engaged in union business, they receive only travel compensation, nothing else. They often perform union duties on their time.

We all get the same annual cost-of-living adjustment. Performance increases though, are based on your performance, and decided by your immediate manager. Yes, you may grieve it, if you feel you have been treated unfairly. Rare, but it happens.

I cannot speak for other unions, but in ours, seniority does not guarantee your job if you are a under-performer, or if you violate policy. Last may, a man with 22 years in was fired. Procedure was followed: A series of warnings, given in the presence of union reps. A union steward told the guy that there was "no defense" for what he was doing, and that he should clean up his act. What was he doing, you ask? Coming in late, frequent sick days, poor quality work, etc. He somehow thought his 22 years was good enough. He was mistaken.

One of the best benefits, (my own opnion) is one I have never used, and hopefully never will. It simply says that a union member cannot be "called in" for any kind of disciplinary action unless a union rep is with you. This I feel, circumvents a lot of head games that some supervisors and line managers like to play. Can you imagine such a policy being in place at a notorious place such as Walmart?

So Roody, I do agree with you. What I think is interesting is why so many young people are so vehemently anti-union, when they have yet to spend day one in the work force. I've noticed this here, and on some other forums. Unions are not perfect, and as already noted, they need to get up to speed with the 21st century economy. But where are people getting these bad ideas of unions from?

[sbhikes]

I have two recumbents. Both were made in America. I even purchased one of them at the factory. I saw the tubes and the workbenches. They cost a lot more than a Taiwanese-made bike. Are you willing to pay more than $1000 for your bike even if that $1000 doesn't get you Shimano Ultegra or whatever the top-of-the-line brand is?

The Jandd factory used to be in Santa Barbara. A few years ago they finally moved to Mexico. Otherwise I could recommend them. Well, I'll still recommend them because their products are good, but I have no idea about their labor standards.

Old Man Mountain bike racks are made in Santa Barbara. Be prepared to pay more than $100 for them. They're well-made though.

People still do make things in America, but they aren't made in as great a quantity as other things. And you probably won't find them at Wal-Mart.

You could find some things second-hand, and a lot of thrift stores benefit the disabled.

As for the whole union argument, part of the reason a lot of you are down on unions also lies with the press. They always report on stories of strikes with the point of view of how much inconvenience it will cause you rather than focusing on the worker rights that were violated that precipitated the strike. This makes you subconsciously side with management.

It's nice that we have minimum wage, 40 hour work weeks, safety standards and all the rest, but we're losing them. How many of you can live on $5.15 and hour or whatever minimum wage is?

Disparage the unions all you want, but realize that all the rights and benefits they won in the past are being eroded. How else can we workers be heard politically if we don't group together somehow?

[Savas]

The advancements of Unions are high prices for everyone. It feeds itself in a way. You need more money to pay for the goods you are paying more for as a result of union extravagance and unrealistic economics - of the type that put companies they work for out of business. To give you a hint of where Unions are heading. In certain geographical areas, Unions are looking to bring the illegal alien workers into their fold with the promise of benefits and higher wages. Only thing is, the illegals are dubious about joining the Unions. The illegals want to work continuously and at whatever job comes there way.

[Bekologist]

bring back the Wobblies! Find a new Pete Seeger, that guy that sang 'when the president speaks to god' or somebody, throw some general strikes to shut down some cities, and see what happens when the proletariat rises up!

Seattle was the site of the first general strikes in the country almost 100 years ago, and reading tales of REAL labor organizing is refreshing. Yah, right, as IF modern union civil service workers at city hall, or Boeing workers, would ever strike nowadays for the rights of workers other then themselves...sometimes you see cross union solidarity, but if it doesn't extend out of the union circle, it has a pretty selfish purpose, to further other unionists unrealistic benefits packages...

Nowadays, labor unions stay busy trying to protect their own pensions, payrolls, and benefits, which sometimes account for the largest cost of doing business, to the detriment of all workers in america....now, large companies are using the bankruptcy gambit to absolve their pension debt onto the federal guarantor, and that is completely unsustainable... good work, unionists (what a joke!) Once this is tested all the way up to the supreme court, there's going to be a flush of these bankruptcies. I was just reading a column about bankruptcies becomming part of the business plan for large corporations to reduce benefits liabilities, not just as a restructuring for unsound businesses, and it's happenin' in the US big time.

essentially, workers are getting the hose in the US, and unions are about a century behind the times in really benefiting the american workforce.

[joejack951]

I just went and checked some labels and found a few additions to sbhikes list of US cycling companies:

2003 Performance Ultra bibs (my 2005 bibs were "assembled in Costa Rica")
2005 Pearl Izumi Attack bibs
Hind headband
OMM White Rock rack ($55 and well worth it)

That's all I found looking through my laundry pile and from memory. I'm sure there's more in my closet but I didn't get that far.

[FLBandit]

....Union representation is the best and usually the only job protection you can have in America.

One might try learning a skill and being good at it.