Training & Nutrition - Anyone else using chocolate milk as a recovery drink?

Okay...stop this insanity..from now on everybody will drink beer for recovery. This ends all arguments

No, I didn't skip over that part. I wrongly assumed that you would realize that it's an irrevelant statement. In my reply, I specifically stated in italics that the overall cancer rate in Japan is lower. I don't care if Japan has a thousand times the rate of fingernail cancer or nose-hair cancer, the simple fact is that a lower rate of people in Japan die from cancer than in America. Your article did not link soy intake to those types of cancer. It linked asians to those types of cancer. Writers prey on the reader's gullibility to make it seem like statistics support something that is completely irrevelant...

OK so we are agreed here... useless statistics.. my point was also to show that linking soy to the reduced overall cancer rates and rates of certain cancers in Japan was as rediculous and unfounded as linking milk consumption to reduced cancer rates in certain types of cancers in the west... my suppositions were purely tongue-in-cheek

you know, i had assumed that the choc milk i was drinking was 2% but it's actually 1%... and it tastes great! so great tasting choc milk (1%) actually has HALF THE TOTAL and basically the same amount of saturated fat (only 0.5 grams more) than soy milk

per 1Cup/250ml

2.5g/4%DV Fat, 1.5g/8%DV (just read this off the label)

For anyone who is still interested... i was doing some more reading on recovery nutrition and one very important component is that the recover drink/food have a high glycemic index... such that carbs get absorbed rapidly and cause a rapid high blood sugar level... resulting in your body upping the insulin level which in turn speeds up glycogen production. likely why milk is a terrible recovery drink but choc milk is/would be a much better one because of its high sugar content.. other choices would be bread, rice etc.. as well as a 4:1 carb to protein ratio as mentioned earlier which for what ever reason speeds up carb absorption, and likely aid in muscle repair and maintenance.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way I do like my naturaly soured milk as a recovery food. Its great stuff.

I would just like to point out that Anthony is from Australia where some people think vegemite tastes good, so, consider the source of the sour milk advocate. :-)

The only reason we drink it as adults is because we have been subjected to a massive media campaign by the producers of milk. Perhaps in the days of famine and agriculture as the only means to survival, milk was a good idea. Not so today.

hahaha....I'm not sure what you're eating if you're not eating agricultural products....but whew..this is funny!!!

hahaha....I'm not sure what you're eating if you're not eating agricultural products....but whew..this is funny!!!

Well, let's see... there is a lot of food out there not considered "agricultural", including venison, other game meats, fish, berries, nuts, fruits... none of these is considered (necessarily) "agricultural". Remember, many of us like to eat the "cave man" diet. Personally, I think dairy and wheat products suck big time. I'm much happier with a gluten-free, dairy-free diet with lots of water. I love water. Especially sparkling water, naturally carbonated from the ground. Open your mind and tell me how fish or blueberry is an "agricultural" product.

Remember, many of us like to eat the "cave man" diet. Personally, I think dairy and wheat products suck big time. I'm much happier with a gluten-free, dairy-free diet with lots of water. I love water. Especially sparkling water, naturally carbonated from the ground. Open your mind and tell me how fish or blueberry is an "agricultural" product.

Fish and blueberries are agricultural products if you buy them at a store (most fresh fish at my local grocery store is farmed anyway). As much as I would love to catch and eat my own fish and/or pick berries I don't really have the time for that and blueberries dont grow well in the canadian winter :)

So what this thread is telling me: Its ok to have my vegemite on toast with milo (choccy milk) after a ride...yeeeaaarrrrrrr! :p

Seriously I live off that stuff.

the overall cancer rate in Japan is lower. I don't care if Japan has a thousand times the rate of fingernail cancer or nose-hair cancer, the simple fact is that a lower rate of people in Japan die from cancer than in America.

The reason for that could be just about anything, and is most likely a combination of many factors.
Do people who are not genetically Japanese, but have lived there all their lives, have a lower or higher incidence of cancer?

Is a main factor pollution? General diet (low in saturated fats, high in unsaturated fats from fish)?

You see, you can really only compare cancer rates and attribute them to a specific factor when all other factors are equal. To claim that milk has anything to do with it is just silly as it is now.

I love chocolate milk and consider myself a connoisseur in that regard. I have at least 5 different chocolate milk powders at my house ranging from Milka, Nestle Quick and Kaba to some smaller brands.
:-)

Herbert
Litespeed

whats wrong with a nice cold bottle beer?

whats wrong with a nice cold bottle beer?

The alcohol? :D

Beer.

Bicycling mag ahad a good review of it a couple of years ago.

Human beans.
I'm not one to let a good pun go unacknowledged. So... :lol:

Okay...stop this insanity..from now on everybody will drink beer for recovery. This ends all arguments

I drank a chocolate stout for a recovery ride. Emotional recovery
Now for you lactose intolerant folks: Can you drink beers made with lactose. Some stouts are made with this. I believe Guiness has lactose in it. Just curious.

More support for chocolate milk vs sports drinks

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/119/113227?src=RSS_PUBLIC

i have...although i don't really like milk. i think i might have been getting my chocolate fix

I've been consulting with a nutritionist who recommends complex carbohydrates and protein at a 2:1 ratio with very little or no fat for optimal recovery.

While adding some protein powder to non-fat chocolate milk (cow or soy) could get the ratio right, the carbs are mostly simple sugars, not complex. So at least according to this model, chocolate milk is suboptimal for recovery. However: it sure does taste great, and I have had it from time to time as recovery drink/reward.

Personally, I'm a fan of beer, especially after long/grueling rides. The anesthetic effect of the alcohol on sore muscles is welcomed. I figure it's allowable to have suboptimal recovery from time to time for the sake of preserving mental health. If I were a Pro or something I'd worry a lot more but that seems pretty unlikely to happen so . . . bottoms up!

I've been consulting with a nutritionist who recommends complex carbohydrates and protein at a 2:1 ratio with very little or no fat for optimal recovery.
what kind of recovery are you talking about. there is no shame in having instant simple sugar carbohydrate to begin the replenishing of muscle glycogen stores once again

I've been consulting with a nutritionist who recommends complex carbohydrates and protein at a 2:1 ratio with very little or no fat for optimal recovery.

While adding some protein powder to non-fat chocolate milk (cow or soy) could get the ratio right, the carbs are mostly simple sugars, not complex. So at least according to this model, chocolate milk is suboptimal for recovery. However: it sure does taste great, and I have had it from time to time as recovery drink/reward.

Personally, I'm a fan of beer, especially after long/grueling rides. The anesthetic effect of the alcohol on sore muscles is welcomed. I figure it's allowable to have suboptimal recovery from time to time for the sake of preserving mental health. If I were a Pro or something I'd worry a lot more but that seems pretty unlikely to happen so . . . bottoms up!

There are bonafide studies showing the ratio of carbs to protein can be as high as 10:1. 4:1 still seems about right for the reasons below.

A ratio of 2:1 is probably too high because it's either not enough carbs to help your replace the glycogen asap, or it's too much protein to digest adequately. Also note that protein digestion produces ammonia and that will slow your muscle recovery. Protein is something you want to have around on a more or less continuous basis, somewhat different from carbs. So, frequent, small amounts will be best.

Recent studies show that you want the carbs right after exercise to be simple, NOT complex, because you want them to convert to glycogen rapidly and the little insulin surge from the simple carbs will also help get the carbs and protein where you want them (stored, into muscle). Remember too that it takes at least 3-4 grams of water to store one gram of carbs. A sports drink as soon as you're done exercising is best, then 15-30 minutes later you start with the carb and protein together at 4:1 or slightly higher.

Just for the record, the Swiss are close behind the Japanese for the longest life spans. These are the same people who have the highest dairy consumption (short of the Masi) yet have long productives life spans.

With that being said, there is a big difference between store bought milk and good Jersery cow free range RAW milk, the europeans use the RAW stuff.

I think even better than milk for recovery, try some good raw CREAM sometime. For hundreds of years it has been used to feed 'athletes' before/after a big event, it was one of the original recovery drinks.

There are bonafide studies showing the ratio of carbs to protein can be as high as 10:1. 4:1 still seems about right for the reasons below.

A ratio of 2:1 is probably too high because it's either not enough carbs to help your replace the glycogen asap, or it's too much protein to digest adequately. Also note that protein digestion produces ammonia and that will slow your muscle recovery. Protein is something you want to have around on a more or less continuous basis, somewhat different from carbs. So, frequent, small amounts will be best.

Recent studies show that you want the carbs right after exercise to be simple, NOT complex, because you want them to convert to glycogen rapidly and the little insulin surge from the simple carbs will also help get the carbs and protein where you want them (stored, into muscle). Remember too that it takes at least 3-4 grams of water to store one gram of carbs. A sports drink as soon as you're done exercising is best, then 15-30 minutes later you start with the carb and protein together at 4:1 or slightly higher.

I will see if my nutritionist will share sources on the studies she's used to develop this plan. Not that this makes the information any more reliable, but she does have a Ph. D. and is a cycling coach/consultant herself so I am at least marginally confident that she's not pulling it out of a dark place. Also this may have been custom-tailored advice for my specific needs. I'm just telling you the model. There's no one best way.

I will see if my nutritionist will share sources on the studies she's used to develop this plan. Not that this makes the information any more reliable, but she does have a Ph. D. and is a cycling coach/consultant herself so I am at least marginally confident that she's not pulling it out of a dark place. Also this may have been custom-tailored advice for my specific needs. I'm just telling you the model. There's no one best way.
PhD in what? and from an accredited university?

What we have here is another thread that shows how eating and food will become the next religions of America. We'll have the Vegans, Vegetarians, Pescarians, Omnivores, Paleos, Neanderthins, South Beachers, Atkins and on and on and on....

I saw a funny bumper sticker the other day. It said, "If you are what you eat, then I'm fast, cheap and oily."

I will see if my nutritionist will share sources on the studies she's used to develop this plan. Not that this makes the information any more reliable, but she does have a Ph. D. and is a cycling coach/consultant herself so I am at least marginally confident that she's not pulling it out of a dark place. Also this may have been custom-tailored advice for my specific needs. I'm just telling you the model. There's no one best way.

Better yet, show her my post and/or do some reading of your own on pubmed. There's lots of studies there about what I wrote. Your comments about complex carbs right after training is the exact opposite of what studies suggest. 2-3 hours before or after training is the time for complex carbs.

Note that the ratios I was describing are for the hours immediately after training. The 2:1 ratio that you mentioned may have been for other times.

Do some calculations... 30-40 grams of protein is about all a person can digest well and assimilate from one meal. With your 2:1 ratio that's ~60-80 grams of carbs, around 300 carb calories-not nearly as many carbs as you should be aiming at right after training for 90+ minutes.

The study by Stager referenced in the Indiana newspaper reference you linked was funded by Dairy and Nutrition Council Inc., according to the Indiana University website. That makes any conclusions suspect. Further, one study does not a paradigm make. For example, a recent study showed no recovery benefit for massage after cycling (see http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/38/2/173). I suppose we should simply throw out all the soigneurs right away? Could it be that 100 years of cycling tradition has it wrong? I don't think so.

Listen, there are many very respected physicians who think that bovine milk is simply bad news. Human breast milk is the best choice for humans. Baby cows drink cow's milk. After they grow up, they cease to drink it. The only reason we drink it as adults is because we have been subjected to a massive media campaign by the producers of milk. Perhaps in the days of famine and agriculture as the only means to survival, milk was a good idea. Not so today. The only survival milk is responsible for today is the survival of cardiac surgeons. On a gut (common sense) level, if cows and humans don't produce milk for adults, does it make sense that adults should drink it, especially to excess?

I will remain cautiously optimistic about Stager's as yet unpublished study. John Ivy and Bob Portman looked at recovery and found that WHEN nutrients are consumed is actually more important than WHAT is consumed. We should not give Joel Stager credit for something he played no role in discovering (i.e., nutrient timing). The researchers behind Endurox (Ivy, Portman) discovered that concept. Chocolate milk might be a viable option for many people out there, but many people are lactose intolerant, and the word is out as to whether the fat content of chocolate milk is an aid or a detriment to recovery in the first 15 minutes after exercise. Further, milk and other dairy products can be detrimental for many persons with varying diseases. I am also one of those who believes there is a milk-mucous connection, although no one has yet been able to prove it. The studies may be looking at the wrong populations. Bovine growth hormone is another real concern. Perhaps the best thing for us to look at would be Ben Cohen's (the Ben of Ben & Jerry's ice cream) cardiac history. It's not so good.

You are recommneding saturated fat as a good fat when you recomend milk. While I agree that Americans are confused about fat, recommending saturated fat by using milk may not be such a good idea. How about starting with recommendations for small amounts of omega-3 or omega-6 fats?

Like I said, cow's milk is for baby cows. They stop drinking it when they grow up. Maybe it's time you did too.



you haven't been surfing Rense.com have you ?


milk scandals wooooooo

Better yet, show her my post and/or do some reading of your own on pubmed. There's lots of studies there about what I wrote. Your comments about complex carbs right after training is the exact opposite of what studies suggest. 2-3 hours before or after training is the time for complex carbs.

Note that the ratios I was describing are for the hours immediately after training. The 2:1 ratio that you mentioned may have been for other times.

Do some calculations... 30-40 grams of protein is about all a person can digest well and assimilate from one meal. With your 2:1 ratio that's ~60-80 grams of carbs, around 300 carb calories-not nearly as many carbs as you should be aiming at right after training for 90+ minutes.

Her time-frame for this was within 30 minutes post-exercise. I'll run your info by her and see what she says. Also I should mention that her program is specifically for endurance training, which may also carry different needs. Not saying you're wrong . . . or that she's right . . . just repeating it.

It's basically about getting the 4:1 plus other antioxidants, minerals and vitamins. I use a whey powder called Transform + which basically contains all these things but in much more potency than one would find in Endurox or ... ahem, cow's milk.

Each to his own road, though. I'm sure that chocolate milk is much better than nothing, and even better than most post-ride snacks I've seen consumed.

But the point here is that it's simply not *the best* answer. It's good, but not the best.

check out the China Study: the most comprehensive study of nutrition ever conducted. it's based around studying the massive number of different villages and areas in china, and reaches some rather firm conclusions.


The reason for that could be just about anything, and is most likely a combination of many factors.
Do people who are not genetically Japanese, but have lived there all their lives, have a lower or higher incidence of cancer?

Is a main factor pollution? General diet (low in saturated fats, high in unsaturated fats from fish)?

You see, you can really only compare cancer rates and attribute them to a specific factor when all other factors are equal. To claim that milk has anything to do with it is just silly as it is now.

Her time-frame for this was within 30 minutes post-exercise. I'll run your info by her and see what she says. Also I should mention that her program is specifically for endurance training, which may also carry different needs. Not saying you're wrong . . . or that she's right . . . just repeating it.

Within 30 minutes, and for endurance training, carbs should definitely be more than 2:1 with protein. Best to go light on the protein then because of digestion issues and you need more carbs then too than say, a person going out for an hour or so of hard intervals. 4:1 to 6:1 for sure during the 30 minutes after you finish the rides. I think you misunderstood her because 2:1 for your scenario is nowhere near optimal, unless that's just a snack before a larger ratio of carbs soon after that. Check out pubmed.

I've been drinking a chocolate milk homebrew for some time and like it.

16 oz. milk, two or three tablespoons powdered milk, two or three tablespoons sugar, tablespoon of Dutch-style cocoa, dash of vanilla, pinch of salt, and blend. Tasty, and you can vary the carbs (the sugar and powdered milk) and extra protein (the powdered milk, a.k.a. 'whey') to suit your personal mileage and preferences.

If you cut all the way down to skim milk, it saves about 150 calories and a buncha fat grams per brew over regular milk. 2%, 1% milk will give you a sliding scale, of course. The brew tastes about the same and has about the same mouth feel no matter which kind of milk one uses, due to the powdered milk and sugar that thicken it up. The gurus say that fat content slows protein absorption, for what it's worth.

"Imitation" vanilla extract tastes just the same as natural. Vanillin is vanillin.

Hat tip to Joe Friel (http://www.ultrafit.com/a_index.asp) for the idea of mixing milk and sugar to make a protein/carb after-ride drink.

Well you know, I was just getting ready to explain to those California milk-haters that here in the Washington area we just don't have access to those huge jugs of human milk that they get out there, when the hourly newsbreak came up on the radio. . . .and it turns out Anna Nicole Smith was in town today for her Supreme Court argument...

I wonder if sugar-free chocolate milk (such as those that use splenda) would work. I like the Swiss Miss version and try to avoid sugar, so I'm hoping.

I wonder if sugar-free chocolate milk (such as those that use splenda) would work. I like the Swiss Miss version and try to avoid sugar, so I'm hoping.

That would eliminate most of the carbohydrates, so no, it wouldn't really work for the manner in which others are using it. It wouldn't be any different from drinking regular milk, except for some chocolate enzymes.

Ok heres a question for those with the scientific background.

If chocolate milk is a great recovery drink....then would a chocolate mocha espresso work as well?

Real chocolate, melted into steamed milk, poured over espresso coffee. Wonder if the steaming/heating of the milk changes it nutritionaly? It does change the taste and texture but do the nutrients change under the heat ?

Could chocolate milk replace sports drinks?

From NPR: "Morning Edition, March 15, 2006 · It looks like the sports energy drink Gatorade has some big competition -- from a cow. Indiana University researchers found chocolate milk -- with its protein, amino acids and carbohydrates -- worked best to re-invigorate athletes. The study showed that cyclists who drank chocolate milk in between workouts rode about as long as those that drank Gatorade. And 50 percent longer than those who had another sports energy drink."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5280965

I drink chocolate milk as a recovery drink now.
The milk here isn't processed to death, just pasteurised, and I drink 0.5% fat milk.
The milk has about 3.5% protein, 5% carbs and, as I said, 0.5% fat.
To that, I add chocolate drink powder, made up of about 85-90% sugar (plain old white sugar) and cocoa. That makes for about 82% carbs, 4% protein and 2-3% fat.

My normal recovery drink is made up of 650 g of milk and 30 g of chocolate drink powder. The total comes to 24 g protein, 57 g carbs and 4 g fat. 375 kcal.
Usually, I also eat 115 g of tuna afterwards. That adds another 25 g of protein, and maybe 5 g of fat, for a total of 59 g protein, 57 g carbs and about 10 g fat. Total kcal: 575!

Bit off topic, but AntonyG it is an offence to sell unpasteurised milk in New South Wales, so how are you buying this stuff? PM the reply if you want - just curious (bit of an unpasteurised cheese fan myself)

cheers,
Nada

I drink chocolate milk after my rides and my p90x workouts. I stay away from soy milk because I have read soy raises estrogen levels in men and at my age I need all the testosterone I can get

Wow, this is one old thread, but here goes. Provaltein, my friend, Provaltein. And I have heard the same thing about soy, after I use up my remaining container of it it's whey for me.

Is it ironic for me to lament the bumping of an old thread by making a post to it? ;)
Still, here it goes: chocolate milk is a decent recovery drink depending on what you are doing and what your goals are but there might be better options.
Personally I don't like drinking cow's milk in mass produced liquid form. I prefer whey protein powered which is reduced and refined cows milk. ;)
At least I know the whey powder has been through more sterilization treatments and whatnot then the plain milk (right?).
This opinion of mine has been formed by completely reactionary and ignorant impulses on my behalf and nothing else. Heck, I typically get most of my protein from ocean caught tuna!