Folding Bikes - Might join the fold of folders

I am trying to decide if I will plop down a bunch of money on a decent folder. I see that Brompton, while pricey, is considered to be the smallest quality folder. No? Dahon sems to make a very good bike but it's still ~6" bigger. I think 25"vs 31"
I think I need to get it as small as possible because I ride a train to work. This train's narrow isle is unlike most subway cars. I have to be careful when I carry my backpack so I don't hit anyone. Lugging a folder bike AND carrying a backpack will be a little intimidating.
For those that commute with a folder and train/subway: DO you also have panniers, backpack etc? How do you handle all of this ***** on the train? When the train is empty it will be easy but when she's packed. I will have more questions as I continue to research. Wheel size, gearing etc., internal gears???? Too many decisions. Thanks Charlie

Hey Charlie!

For multimode, I have to agree, a Brompton is an awesome choice - one of the best if not THE best choice on account of folded size.

My folder has to be multiple things: multimode commute (occassional), touring and general fitness and the "getting-around" bike. As such, I went with something that had 20" wheels. (only because they're easier to find around here - Brompton 349mm is unheard of in Canada - it would be a mail-order item)

If I had a second bike, it would be a Brommy for multi-mode commuting and I'd carry a large backpack for luggage. BTW: I use busses not trains but they're pretty cramped at times (smaller than subway cars for sure).

Could you tell us a bit more? Do you have other bikes? Would the folder be only for commuting?

EDIT: there's a Brompton owners group on Yahoo (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BromptonTalk/). If you decide on a Brompton, they can give you ideas on which model. The Brompton doesn't seem to have very wide gearing - it's sort of a chronic problem of the design - but if you taylor your gearing to the terrain you'll ride in, you'll be fine. (gear it for flats and climbs and just coast down hills)

Hey Af or CJ: The only need for this bike will be commuting. I already have a touring bike and mnt bike. I almost always bike/train to work. 18-22 days a month. I commute in all kinds of weather. I ride 6 miles to the train then 3 miles to work(or 6 miles during hunting season). The 'to work' miles may change to 8 miles as I may lose my current train station and my overnight bike box. If I lose the station I will then be forced onto other stations and lines, thus a need for a folder. I currently use 2 old mnt bikes with slicks, 21 speeds, one at each end of the train.
Gearing has me concerned. Got a bunch of hills here in Catonsville, MD. I'll have to figure out the lowest gearing I need to make it home. I know I can make it in the middle front ring(42 or 44?). We'll see. lso internal gearing, while heavier, will be an asset in winter riding and cleaner pant legs? Thanks for any help, Charlie

Bromptons are sweet in their intended usage. The limited gear range though kills it for me. It is just too big of a compromise for me to deal with. I dont want to coast down every hill because this is where I need to make up some of the time I lose going up! Two or three speeds like many have just doesn't get it for me. You are looking at either 133% or 178% range. This is just too short for me.

Now if small size is a criteria then maybe it moves up in the ranking. For me the smallest wheels I want to deal with is 20". The 16"'s on the Brompton are very small and ride quality does suffer. The engineer part of my personality loves the compactness of it but I couldn't live with it. Of course if my situation dictated only a Brompton or walking then the choice is obvious... I'd move. Just kidding, I'd buy one and try to like it on a daily basis.

Sounds like a folding bike would be an excellent tool for your commute. Next time you ride your normal route, make a note of the gearing and do a gear-inch calculation here: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/

Be sure to select "gear inches" from the drop down menu as well as the correct tire size for whatever you're riding these days.

When it comes time to calculate gearing for the Brompton, the "16 x 1 3/8 / 35-349" is its tire size.
The Brompton factory site will have info on what they offer for drivetrain.

I'm pretty sure you can gear a Brompton for your needs but it may require the use of an internally geared hub like the Nexus or SRAM. (305% gear range, approximately). EDIT: I'm now hearing the Brompton has fairly tightly spaced rear dropouts. This may require some futzing if you wanted to fit an internally geared hub. Hrm.

I don't know if that's an offered option but you can certainly rebuild a wheel with that hub. Buying a used Brompton and building the drivetrain up the way you want it may be a practical option. If there's only one front chainring, you can put a guard on it to keep you pant leg from getting greased too. :)

I agree with Wavshrdr that 133 to 180% gearing seems on the narrow side. The Nexus or SRAM hubs with over 300% are likely adequate though.

Hope this helps!
Chris/CJ/af. ;)

p.s. Wavshrdr: the GoBike folds like a Brompton but uses 20" wheels. Nice bike but extremely difficult to find. See Chops page where he compares the GoBike and Brompton side-by-side: http://long-john.com/pagegobike.htm

Good Advice i'd say. Brompton is ace for what you intend it for, i too would have Brompton as second folder if ever i did serious commuting. I also think the 305% hub is a good idea. Check some of the other posts to find out about the relative merits of Nexus and S-Ram. Go Bike is a very nice design but as AF said hard to find and even harder to get parts for.

Downtube as well as Bike Friday are planning to do a folder that folds real small i gather but this may take a long time.

Hey guys: Here's the skinny:38/48 front crank(didn't need the granny). Rear cassette: 12-32. I plugged the value(including granny into SB gear inches equation. High was 99.5, low was 29.5. The #'s change a little when I add the granny gear to the calculations. Where the heck did you get 300%??? SB site also gave corresponding #'s to each pair of gears. It also gave a bunch of % between each size.

High was 99.5, low was 29.5. .... Where the heck did you get 300%???
If you divide 99.5" by 29.5", you will see that 99.5" is 3.37 times greater than 29.5". Hence a range of 337%.

A range of 300% would for example be 30" - 90", or 25" - 75".....

The Nexus 8 speed would give you 307%, or for example 29" - 89"...

Charlie: the 300% is the range for the Nexus and SRAM internally geared hubs. To calculate gear-inches would require plugging more numbers in (rear cog/front ring/wheel size)

I just put your numbers in the gear calculator. Note: that "29.5 gear inch" figure IS with the 38T inner chainring. With ONLY the 48T, your bike (38-559 tire) is running 99.5 to 37.3 gear-inches. I believe that's about 267% (someone help me out if I'm calculating that wrong)

Next step: figure out if you can sacrifice any of that range while riding your regular route. Try to deliberately ride without using, say, the top two or bottom two gears. (and lock out the 38T all-together)

:)

Oh I get it. Yang and AF Thanks. I don't know if I can do it all in the 48(see my first post...big, long climbs) I'll try all the way in the 48 on Weds(driving tues for christmas party). I think I'm gonna have to come out of the saddle and mash at the tops of the hills. On the way to the train won't be a problem, mostly downhill...the way home should give me fits. I'm kinda thinking that 300% is gonna be a sweeter ride. But one of the newer internal hubs should be fine. I'll let you know what happens. Charlie

Right on Charlie!

Another option to try if you've got the time for a second "test run": try ONLY the small chainring with the full range of rear gears.

If you can omit the large ring, you'll have a gear-inch range of 29.5 to 78.8 gear inches - MUCH more suitable to climbing. If you omit the 12T cog, that's 85.3 gear inches - omit the top TWO cogs and you have a top gear of 74.6 gear inches.

You can always coast down hills - it's the climbing that'll kill your knees.

Right on Charlie!

Another option to try if you've got the time for a second "test run": try ONLY the small chainring with the full range of rear gears.

If you can omit the large ring, you'll have a gear-inch range of 29.5 to 78.8 gear inches - MUCH more suitable to climbing. If you omit the 12T cog, that's 85.3 gear inches - omit the top TWO cogs and you have a top gear of 74.6 gear inches.

You can always coast down hills - it's the climbing that'll kill your knees.

I hear ya on the knees, I don't mind a little coasting but....sometimes you got to go. I'll be able to play with these numbers(now that I know what they all mean) and see what I come up with. Bromptons numbers in the mid 100's does seem a bit low tho'. Thanks Charlie

It is not easy to fit other hubs into a Brompton. The rear triangle is quite narrow, too narrow for most hub gears. The 6 speed can be modded fairly easily to extend the gear range though.

Hey Guys - there is a Brilliant gear inch calculator in Kinetic's web site (and some great stuff on gears and bromptons - thankyou Ben). The program has lots of hub gears and all deraileur options - Download it for free (and save those overworked grey cells ;) ) Kinetics Gear info and software (http://www.kinetics.org.uk/html/gearing.shtml)

Hey Guys - there is a Brilliant gear inch calculator in Kinetic's web site (and some great stuff on gears and bromptons - thankyou Ben). The program has lots of hub gears and all deraileur options - Download it for free (and save those overworked grey cells ;) ) Kinetics Gear info and software (http://www.kinetics.org.uk/html/gearing.shtml)

Hey SS, that's the most excellent calculator I've seen yet ....... THANKS!!

The graph it makes is a really nice touch

Rik

Right on Charlie!

Another option to try if you've got the time for a second "test run": try ONLY the small chainring with the full range of rear gears.

If you can omit the large ring, you'll have a gear-inch range of 29.5 to 78.8 gear inches - MUCH more suitable to climbing. If you omit the 12T cog, that's 85.3 gear inches - omit the top TWO cogs and you have a top gear of 74.6 gear inches.

You can always coast down hills - it's the climbing that'll kill your knees.

I tried to test an array of all the gears. Seems that running only on the front large ring(48) was doable but not fun. Running on the middle(38) was great on the ups but a little whimpy on the downs. I usually max out the 48-12 which is plenty fast. The 38-12 bairly makes its but is doable. I'm definetly not going with the 48 only(leave that to the young guys). So I guess(??) it's either lose a little speed on the downs with a smaller folder OR I will have to buy a larger folder to get a 8 speed internal geared hub(for the preferrable gearing)??
I do have the option of renting a Dahon from Mnt. Airy bikes. I figure that way I can see just how small(or big) it really is. I hope I can get one with an 8 speed internal. Seems like most folders have regular derrailleurs. Why? Seems the internal makes a lot more sense, less things to get hung up, less grease on the pants etc. Thanks Charlie

I own both a Dahon 20" Boardwalk and a Brompton. Both bikes have a Sturmey-Archer AW three speed internal grear drivetrain. The Dahon has all the necessary accessories (fenders/mudguards, rear rack) for serious commuting and/or touring with more packs. The Brompton is a type C no frills minus all the accessories right now more for extreme compact toting with ease onto buses, commuter trains, taxis, private cars/trucks, light rail, and possible carry on plane luggage in the future.

With either folder, I try not to carry too much on myself or the bike when riding and especially when I use another form of transit. My own experience is when a small person has difficulty lugging even a folded bike onto the vehicle, he/she might be thrown off or told to wait for another less crowded one. I have to look like the bike, usually hidden in a bag of some sort, isn't what it is and I have no problems lifting it or other packs.

So the Boardwalk is more for little if any multi modal transit use and carries all of the things I need to bring, and the Brompton is more flexible and looks like it belongs on all transit I need to use for long distance travel. Both bikes can fold in case of mechanical or urban problems and storage at the destination by keeping it with me rather than depending on locks (does not work where I live and work-high crime area). Different bikes for different things.