Advocacy & Safety - Nytimes article on undercover cops in critical mass rides

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/nyregion/22police.html?hp&ex=1135314000&en=10dca8926beae1ec&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Mmmm... niiiiice.

I have a generally high opinion of police officers as individuals. What I can't stand, though, are the shifts in focus which have been made over the last few years.

Does a CM ride REALLY merit cops going under cover? C'mon....

If you're ACTUALLY looking to prevent vandalism etc. you'd show up with a positive, visible presence. Undercover cops are just there to collect info on individuals.

This combined with greater numbers of surveillance cameras, wire taps etc etc really makes me wonder if we're moving closer and closer to a dystopian future...

How many people have been hurt/killed because of critical mass rides? Why the crackdown?

-Greg

Yea I saw that. There is also a video that the cops edited out parts that showed the defendent was not guilty.

:(

Why the crackdown?



When we are omnipotent we shall have no more need of science. There will be no distinction between beauty and ugliness. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always -- do not forget this, Winston -- always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face -- for ever.

Perhaps?

This combined with greater numbers of surveillance cameras, wire taps etc etc really makes me wonder if we're moving closer and closer to a dystopian future...

Actually, it's more like a return to the past of the 1960s -- complete with agents provocateur.

complete with agents provocateur.
I had to look that one up, though it's fairly obvious now that I did.

Noun 1. provocateur - a secret agent who incites suspected persons to commit illegal acts

This is an outrage! This means that the Movement is growing in power. The hedgemonic order is frightened. They will begin to really fight soon. Then will come victory. Peace.


There used to be a thing about asking if someone is a cop and them having to answer correctly.

This is awesome. I always try to give my posts a good once over to edit out the overly bombastic rhetoric. I don't need to worry so much. Obviously I won't offend anyone here with my pro-bike, anti-car culture, and other biases.

I get the impression that most folks reading the advocacy forum are loons, just like me. ;)

-Greg

A disaffected conspiracy-minded activist video expert makes assertions that the Times picks up and reports as though the assertions are a forgone conclusion. Great minds think alike, or rather, birds of a feather flock together.

Kinda makes you wonder who is reading Bike Forums?
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean that they are NOT out to get you.

you CMers need to start taking more cameras with you.

Nobody spots the guy with a black MTB with POLICE written on it during the rides? Easy to spot....

:-)

Really, what are they worried about exactly? They think we are all a big biker gang. What are we all hard people who go around busting up coffee shops?

God forbid anyone disagree with the president and his war.

A large trunk bag can conceal a bomb just as well as a backpack does.

My favourite line form the article is the spokesman for the police who said that one of the the reasons theywere there was to "protect free speech".

"THIS IS THE POLICE!! YOU INTERRUPTED THAT GENTLEMAN, YOU MUST LET EVERYBODY HAVE A TURN AT EXPRESSING THEIR DISPLEASURE AT THE GOVERNMENT! THIS IS THE POLICE!"

... God forbid anyone disagree with the president and his war.

And this has what exactly to do with cycling advocacy?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/nyregion/22police.html?hp&ex=1135314000&en=10dca8926beae1ec&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Mmmm... niiiiice.

I have a generally high opinion of police officers as individuals. What I can't stand, though, are the shifts in focus which have been made over the last few years.

Does a CM ride REALLY merit cops going under cover? C'mon....

If you're ACTUALLY looking to prevent vandalism etc. you'd show up with a positive, visible presence. Undercover cops are just there to collect info on individuals.

This combined with greater numbers of surveillance cameras, wire taps etc etc really makes me wonder if we're moving closer and closer to a dystopian future...


-Greg

The CM rides take place on public streets. What reasonable expectation of privacy exists?

A large trunk bag can conceal a bomb just as well as a backpack does.
Critical Mass = NONVIOLENT Civil Disobedience. Legitimate domestic dissent is not terrorism, either. If they're worried about bombs, they should be checking the several million cars and trucks that flow through NYC each day, not Critical Mass riders.

Not a big fan of CM but undercover officers is getting a bit silly I think. Someone should make a TV show about Undercover police officers at CM. Don Johnson could be the dashing and handsome cop and Cheech Marin could be his dumpy partner who rides a recumbent and gets all the laughs.

Critical Mass = NONVIOLENT Civil Disobedience.
There's no distinction these days. I went to a peaceful protest (non-bike) that was answered by a brute squad, threats, tazers, and injured civilians. It was ridiculous. The funny thing was watching the evening news; you'd think the police were putting down an armed rebellion. It's amazing how facts can be twisted with a little bit of editing. Case in point. (http://www.ps260.com/molly/SHINING%20FINAL.mov)

A large trunk bag can conceal a bomb just as well as a backpack does.
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9609/04/iraq.conflict/bike.lrg.jpg
http://www.ciai-s.net/bicycle_Palestinian_suicidebomber.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/img/226/2496/1024/suicide%20bike%20bomber.jpg

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9609/04/iraq.conflict/bike.lrg.jpg
http://www.ciai-s.net/bicycle_Palestinian_suicidebomber.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/img/226/2496/1024/suicide%20bike%20bomber.jpg
These pics are from halfway around the world and prove nothing, other than sure, it can be done. Not a justification for the NYPD singling out Critical Mass for harassment, intimidation and provocation; nor for the presence of NYPD undercover cops on Critical Mass rides.

My favourite line form the article is the spokesman for the police who said that one of the the reasons theywere there was to "protect free speech".

"THIS IS THE POLICE!! YOU INTERRUPTED THAT GENTLEMAN, YOU MUST LET EVERYBODY HAVE A TURN AT EXPRESSING THEIR DISPLEASURE AT THE GOVERNMENT! THIS IS THE POLICE!"

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!

LOL...
...and for those of you who mighta seen some football jerseys lurkin'...

I don't trust anyone in a football jersey

These pics are from halfway around the world and prove nothing, other than sure, it can be done.
Eh, that proves nothing at all. For all we know, the cyclist got fed up with motorists and his head exploded.

A large trunk bag can conceal a bomb just as well as a backpack does.

The book Bicycles in War by Martin Caidin, details the prowess of the Vietnamese VC (Vehicular Cyclists) in that regard. Lets just say that bike theft was punished instantly. And not as much of the bicycle was left afterwards.

These pics are from halfway around the world and prove nothing, other than sure, it can be done. Not a justification for the NYPD singling out Critical Mass for harassment, intimidation and provocation; nor for the presence of NYPD undercover cops on Critical Mass rides.

"The police are not here to create disorder; they're here to preserve disorder." Mayor Richard Daly.

The book Bicycles in War by Martin Caidin, details the prowess of the Vietnamese VC (Vehicular Cyclists) in that regard. Lets just say that bike theft was punished instantly. And not as much of the bicycle was left afterwards.

Was that the same Martin Caidin that wrote a bunch of mediocre science fiction?

Critical Mass = NONVIOLENT Civil Disobedience. Legitimate domestic dissent is not terrorism, either. If they're worried about bombs, they should be checking the several million cars and trucks that flow through NYC each day, not Critical Mass riders.

Don't get it, do you? How about terrorists using critical mass as a cover?

Don't get it, do you? How about terrorists using critical mass as a cover?
Why would they need CM for cover? If a terrorist wants cover in a crowd of people, there are dozens of other far more common ways to get it.

I'm sick of hearing about terrorists. They've been around since the beginning of human stupidity. It's nothing new, we're just suddenly keenly aware of them. I'd rather play the bomb lottery than have every law-abiding free citizen viewed and treated by the gov't as a potential terrorist. I'm not directing this frustration at you, Savas, just the whole fear-mongering business in general.

I swear to god. when I was riding the S.D. critical mass last year in Sept. there was these two middle age guys on beat up road bikes from the 70s. They both had that familar cop look to them. I always ride the S.D. CMs and I never ever saw them before. There are very rarely any new blood riding S.D. CMs since they are so small. My spider senses just told me so.

Don't get it, do you? How about terrorists using critical mass as a cover?



I guess I "don't get it" either. Maybe it's because I'm not wetting my pants over who could be a terrorist every day based on purely chimerical whimsy, like you are. I suggest locking yourself in your house at all hours for maximum safety against the super scary outside world.

We apparently need state-sanctioned infiltrators in every kind of group now, since they all could be cover for terrorists: church groups, baking clubs, rotarians, dog show enthusiasts, you name it.

I guess I "don't get it" either. Maybe it's because I'm not wetting my pants over who could be a terrorist every day based on purely chimerical whimsy, like you are. I suggest locking yourself in your house at all hours for maximum safety against the super scary outside world.

We apparently need state-sanctioned infiltrators in every kind of group now, since they all could be cover for terrorists: church groups, baking clubs, rotarians, dog show enthusiasts, you name it.


It's unfortunate you label me as wetting my pants solely for making an observation. Relax. We're just talking about potential reasons why police might be infiltrating a large gathering. And balance is what's needed. From paranoia of a terrorist around every corner weighed against putting one's own head in the sand and totally ignoring them.

It's unfortunate you label me as wetting my pants solely for making an observation. Relax. We're just talking about potential reasons why police might be infiltrating a large gathering. And balance is what's needed. From paranoia of a terrorist around every corner weighed against putting one's own head in the sand and totally ignoring them.

???

balance?

what could a terrorist possible do at critical mass? blow up a bunch of cyclists?

you're kidding me right?

???

balance?

what could a terrorist possible do at critical mass? blow up a bunch of cyclists?

you're kidding me right?
don't they usually just arrest some people and issue tickets?

don't they usually just arrest some people and issue tickets?
This would be the normal uniforms, not the undercover boys and girls. Did you read the article?

What the hell was all this about? So they're purposely causing dissent and then arresting people for chucks?


Another arrest that appeared to be a sham changed the dynamics of a
demonstration. On Aug. 30, 2004, during the Republican National Convention, a man with vivid blond hair was filmed as he stood on 23rd Street, holding a sign at a march of homeless and poor people. A police lieutenant suddenly moved to arrest him. Onlookers protested, shouting, "Let him go." In response, police officers in helmets and with batons pushed against the crowd, and at least two other people were arrested.

Yes, that's called being an agent provacateur.

This would be the normal uniforms, not the undercover boys and girls. Did you read the article?
yeah i read it. in my reply i quoted "what could a terrorist possibly do at critical mass? " and answered with "usually they just arrest some people and issue tickets" and thus, i am saying that the police are terrorists. it was a lame joke.

Don't get it, do you? How about terrorists using critical mass as a cover?
Theoretically terrorists could use anything as a cover. How about SUVs? Bombs were placed in trucks in Iraq. How about rush hour commuter traffic? That would take out more innocent people. I mean from aside from taking out a horde of CMer's, what good is a bomb in Critical Mass? The only one I could see bringing a bomb to CM is some pissed off driver going under cover to teach all those "biking hippies" a "lesson." If you've been following the chatter on the internet, the cops are trying to encroach on left movements for no other reason than the politics of intimidation. This is well documented. The truth is that city gov't's, ergo cops dislike critical mass because it pisses off businesses who can't have the driving consumers get to their shops, etc. with ease. Also, after the RNC, they have begun to equate Critical Mass with supporting values they find threatening- and anything that is not red state bullsh*t propaganda, they have the impulse to crush.

It's unfortunate you label me as wetting my pants solely for making an observation. Relax. We're just talking about potential reasons why police might be infiltrating a large gathering. And balance is what's needed. From paranoia of a terrorist around every corner weighed against putting one's own head in the sand and totally ignoring them.

I'm pretty sure your mailman's a terrorist. Want proof? Just ask him. He'll deny it, of course--and don't ALL terrorists deny being terrorists?

I, for one, want to thank the NYPD for making sure that terrorists don't use Critical Mass as an insidious tool for...um, getting across town without stopping for red lights.

yeah i read it. in my reply i quoted "what could a terrorist possibly do at critical mass? " and answered with "usually they just arrest some people and issue tickets" and thus, i am saying that the police are terrorists. it was a lame joke.

If it makes you feel any better, I got it. And it may be lame, but it's no joke.

P.S. Happy Chriskwanzaakhah

Sounds like a hot topic with some of the anger being demonstrated here. It seems some of you just wish to attend critical mass without any cops hanging with the pack.

Sounds like a hot topic with some of the anger being demonstrated here. It seems some of you just wish to attend critical mass without any cops hanging with the pack.
The possibility of peaceful protest without police interference seems like a reasonable "wish" to me.

Even if a CM plot to commit acts of terrorism were plausible (and it clearly is not), uniformed cops observing from the sidelines would be an adequate deterrent. Undercover infiltraion of any political or social organization is fascistic overkill.

If the goal of terrorism is to destroy American beliefs and values, they have clearly succeeded in New York.

You characterize CM as peaceful protest. is it a fair statement to say that some consider it anarchist?

No one inferred that it would be a genuine biker possibly committing terrorist acts. But how can you state that any infiltration of CM by someone who wants to ride with the crowd and do some destruction is cleary implausible? Wasn't it clearly implausible that several skyscrapers can be taken down and almost 3,000 people incinerated by commandeering some planes? A terrorrist or two infiltrating a crowd of bikers is less than child's play by comparison.

Uniformed cops observing by the sidelines as a deterrent? What are they supposed to do, create a long line of police to give adequate coverage, or do you suppose they should all jog along the CM route? Who will pay for all this police coverage?

But this is all just BS discussion brought about by the article - in my view, there’s no proof that cops are infiltrating CM. Just statements by a videographer who by her role in this screams out that she’s got a hard-on about governmental authority; along with the Times predictably marching in lock-step because it supports a portion of their worldview.

Don't get it, do you? How about terrorists using critical mass as a cover?
How about terrorists using multinational corporations and the us goverment as "cover".

The most likly place to find a terrorist on american soil, is in attending university. I know one Iraqie who was trained at the U of F in nuclear science. He was an irritating gentleman. Once called the police on me because I was listening to Nightline too loud.

I've heard that Hummers are the vehicles of choice for the terrorists.

It's unfortunate you label me as wetting my pants solely for making an observation. Relax. We're just talking about potential reasons why police might be infiltrating a large gathering. And balance is what's needed. From paranoia of a terrorist around every corner weighed against putting one's own head in the sand and totally ignoring them.

I'm far from a Critical Mass supporter. In fact I doubt anyone here can find anything nice that I've ever posted here about C.M. But the terrorist idea is absurd. And even IF somehow a terrorist were to ride in C.M. it would seem a very bad place to identify him (or her) and as many have pointed out C.M. has no organization so it is a dead end as far as infiltrating an organization goes.

The Boy Scouts are a much better place to look for terrorists. They teach many things useful for terrorists and have an organization to infiltrate. (Before people start defending the Boy Scouts let me say they are a rather absurd group to infiltrate, but the above statement is true).

But this is all just BS discussion brought about by the article - in my view, there’s no proof that cops are infiltrating CM. Just statements by a videographer who by her role in this screams out that she’s got a hard-on about governmental authority; along with the Times predictably marching in lock-step because it supports a portion of their worldview.
In August of last year, I personally saw people being pulled off the busses at the pier, having their handcuffs cut off and then reaching into their pockets to retrieve theie shields and hngers, at which point they walked off the pier and back out into the night. So I'm pretty sure there are UC cops at CM, even without video.

As to your other point, wouldn't uniformed cops following the route provide a greater deterrent to terrorosts than UC cops? I mean, if the police are there to prevent malfeasance, wouldn't a more visible presence be more effective?

Don't get it, do you? How about terrorists using critical mass as a cover?
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

I hereby officially nominate this as one of the funniest posts in 2005! I happened to be talking to a coworker and sipping a cup of tea when I read this...and spit tea all over her!

Don't get it, do you? How about terrorists using critical mass as a cover?

They really got you hooked, don't they. You funny man.

Sounds like a hot topic with some of the anger being demonstrated here. It seems some of you just wish to attend critical mass without any cops hanging with the pack.

We love to have uniformed cops, preferably on bicycles, along for the ride, as long as they are there to "PROTECT AND SERVE".

You characterize CM as peaceful protest. is it a fair statement to say that some consider it anarchist?

In a peaceful protest, nothing is destroyed and nobody is hurt. In an anarchist protest, property is destroyed and people may get hurt. These are facts not open to perception. I don't think CM'ers destroy property. They simply hold up traffic for a time.


No one inferred that it would be a genuine biker possibly committing terrorist acts. But how can you state that any infiltration of CM by someone who wants to ride with the crowd and do some destruction is cleary implausible? Wasn't it clearly implausible that several skyscrapers can be taken down and almost 3,000 people incinerated by commandeering some planes? A terrorrist or two infiltrating a crowd of bikers is less than child's play by comparison.

Implausible does not mean impossible. It is simply a matter of will on the part of the terrorists. The question is one of likelyhood. Do the police search every truck on the street for explosives? Are counter protests by Republicans similarly monitored. Why would CM and peace protests be singled out for survailance when a more likely threat would come from a delivery truck?


Uniformed cops observing by the sidelines as a deterrent? What are they supposed to do, create a long line of police to give adequate coverage, or do you suppose they should all jog along the CM route? Who will pay for all this police coverage?

As already pointed out, the police have bike units that sometimes do shadow CM rides. As for pay, who do you think is paying for the undercover officers? You think the volunteer to go undercover for free?


But this is all just BS discussion brought about by the article - in my view, there’s no proof that cops are infiltrating CM. Just statements by a videographer who by her role in this screams out that she’s got a hard-on about governmental authority; along with the Times predictably marching in lock-step because it supports a portion of their worldview.

Video is video, no matter who is the filmer. All you are saying is that the editor of the film had motivation to publish this story. You cannot extrapolate that motivation to comment on the content of the film. It is no secret that the police are not keen on the idea of Critical Mass; that the NYTimes chose to publish this article shows that there is some basis for fact in it. This is not a winger rag like the New York Post. The NYTimes has a reputation to protect.

One last thing ... you should check your gender - women, by definition, do not get hard-ons ;).