Bicycle Mechanics - What's the difference?

So, somebody in another thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=161349&page=5) has asserted that there isn't much difference between the quality in the LBS and X-Mart as far as quality of the bicycles, or the mechanics that work on them. Anybody want to comment? :)

I will. That guy is an idiot. (This comment was made without looking at the thread or knowing who the OP is)

I will. That guy is an idiot. (This comment was made without looking at the thread or knowing who the OP is)

So no bike shop has ever assembled a bike improperly and no bike shop has ever hired a moron? Bulltwinkle. Sorry Kris got you all involved in this...but the fact is I have seen just as many poorly assembled bikes come out of bike shops as from x-mart. My question, even if I may not be who he is presently arguing with in the other thread, was if anyone could provide some factual comparison...which he can't, so he comes running to you in the hopes of starting a flame war to divert the issue - for that I apologize to you all.

The person in question (and I knew who it is before looking at what thread it is) seems to have a contrarian streak. Nothing is valid unless backed by formal studies, etc.

But anyway, yes there's a difference in the products, and there's a difference in the quality of the assembly work. XMart sells units, never to return. LBS sells a product that will boomerang right back at them if something's the matter, and their lifeblood is satisfied clients, so they'll take pains to do it right the first time.

That's been the approach at every LBS I've worked at... if we got a new assembly guy, the assembly work got checked over, critiqued and corrected before the bike hit the floor. The bikes were checked and tuned again when sold, no matter who assembled them. There are undoubtedly bad LBSs out there, but they'd be the minority.

The person in question (and I knew who it is before looking at what thread it is) seems to have a contrarian streak. Nothing is valid unless backed by formal studies, etc.

But anyway, yes there's a difference in the products, and there's a difference in the quality of the assembly work. XMart sells units, never to return. LBS sells a product that will boomerang right back at them if something's the matter, and their lifeblood is satisfied clients, so they'll take pains to do it right the first time.

That's been the approach at every LBS I've worked at... if we got a new assembly guy, the assembly work got checked over, critiqued and corrected before the bike hit the floor. The bikes were checked and tuned again when sold, no matter who assembled them. There are undoubtedly bad LBSs out there, but they'd be the minority.

The ones I have had bad experiences with are almost always the larger 'chain' operations. But my own guy, who I trust implicitly, once sent my GF out of the shop on her new bike with the fenders unsecured and flapping away...everyone can make a mistake...especially when distracted by people yakking over their shoulder as they work. Funny thing, one of the guys who used to work at one of our area LBS now works at...yes, Walmart.

Yes I can give an opinion based on evidence. A professional opinion if you will. Background, bike mechanic for more than ten years. Have worked on more than twentythousand bikes(Far more) The poorest built LBS level bike I have ever seen is of a better quality than the nicest department stor bike I have ever seen.
Yes there are some poorly assembled LBS bikes, the numbers pale in comparison to the number of poorly assembled department store bikes. It is rare that I have a LBS bike, from another shop, come in with a dangerous assembly issue. Almost every department store bike that has come in had a dramatic safety issue, from mostly unthreaded pedals, brakes rubbing the tire or hanging off the rim, limit screws completely unadjusted, cables routed so they bind the steering, loose stem or brake levers, loose axle nuts, loose BB. Often several issues on the same bike.
There will always be people on this forum with an opinion of bikes shops based on a few experiences. My opinion, and the opinion of guys like mechbegon, are based on hundreds, thousands of experiences. You don't need to believe us tho, some people still think the Earth is flat.

While I don't worship at the church of the LBS and I've even strongly disagreed with the good Rev, I do recognize significant differences between the product and service provided by bike shops as opposed to what comes out of *mart.

Those who like to complain about "elitists" and "yuppies" are unreachable as their religion blinds them. It's not worth the energy to engage in fruitless "debates".

FWIW, as a suburban DINK, I admit that I am evil incarnate. :)

(Short version: LBS work is usually better, as are LBS bikes -- but there's a place for Xmart bikes, too.)

While the race is not always to the swift or the battle to the strong -- that's how the smart money bets.

Sure, LBS employees make mistakes. Even the most experienced mechanics make mistakes. It's a pitfall of humanity: ain't none of us perfect, including professional bike mechanics. But in my experience, LBS work is generally quality work, done by people who know what they're doing, especially at an independent LBS with a small number of mechanics. Their reputations depend heavily on the quality of their work, and their customers won't be satisfied with anything less than excellent work.

Xmarts want satisfied customers, too, but since their reputations depend more on low prices than on the quality of their assembly work, they don't have as much to lose.

People who work at an independent LBS usually do so because they love bicycles. People who work at Xmarts may love bikes, but then again maybe not. The last time I needed bike help at an Xmart, the guy who helped me said he didn't know much about bikes (he said he owned a Gary Fisher but hadn't ridden it in several years); he usually worked in the grocery section.

I have an Xmart MTB. To be fair, the assembly was pretty good. I replaced the cheap wheels and had to re-adjust the rear derailleur, so I have no idea if that was correct to begin with. The brakes were a little looser than I liked, but no big deal. One of the pedals wasn't as tight as I'd have liked, but I replaced the plastic pedals right away, so that didn't matter. They'd cut off the brake and derailleur cables too short to "tuck them in," but that's getting picky I know.

After I'd double-checked Xmart's work, I took the bike to my LBS and had my favorite mechanic (a friend of mine) double-check me. Only after that did I ride it on an MTB trail.

Since it was (by LBS standards) ridiculously cheap (even more so for me since it was a gift), I expected to trash it after a few rides. I'm new to MTBing, so I figured a cheap, semi-disposable bike was a good way to go. I figure when I've trashed this one, I'll know enough to make good use of a higher-quality bike. Four months and counting on the Schwinn Aluminum Comp. I haven't even broken anything on the bike (or me) yet (knock wood). I've had to adjust the cheapie derailleur (Shimano Tourney) more times than I'd have liked.

My other bike is a used Trek, which originally came from an LBS. Although it had been neglected before I got it, it's clearly a superior bike -- better frame, better drivetrain, better components -- and I expect it to last a lot longer than the Schwinn.

Comparing LBS bikes to Xmart bikes is comparing apples to oranges. I don't know about your LBS, but mine doesn't have any new bikes under $300. I've never seen a bike at an Xmart that cost more than $200. They are intended for different customers.

I think if they both had bikes that cost the same, the quality would probably be about the same. But for the same money, I'd get it from an LBS because of the service. Most LBS bikes come with lifetime service. All I got with my Xmart bike was a 90 day satisfaction guarantee.

Maybe it's ironic: the people who buy Xmart bikes don't usually know very much about bikes, but since they don't get professional service as part of the deal, they will need to do more of their own work (or they will need to pay someone else to do it). Maybe it's not ironic, but unfortunate.

Also unfortunate (perhaps) is that LBSs don't have anything for under $300. But if they did, it'd probably account for something like 15% of their profit -- and 85% of their repair time. Well, you know where I pulled those numbers from, but I hope you see my point.

There's a role for Xmart bikes.

When people first start riding, or when they decide to try it again after many years, or when they buy bikes for their kids -- anytime they don't know whether it's going to be a 'serious' hobby or not -- it makes sense not to spend too much money. For people on tight budgets, the choice isn't between a $300 LBS bike and a $100 Xmart bike. The choice is often between the Xmart bike and not riding. I applaud anyone who chooses riding. If they like cycling enough, they'll probably become LBS customers pretty soon anyway.

Bicycling needs more riders, and fewer snobs.

So, somebody in another thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=161349&page=5) has asserted that there isn't much difference between the quality in the LBS and X-Mart as far as quality of the bicycles, or the mechanics that work on them. Anybody want to comment? :)
Yeah well , alot of so called mechanics in the LBS are not as experienced as some of the Xmart mechanics...

Yes I can give an opinion based on evidence. A professional opinion if you will. Background, bike mechanic for more than ten years. Have worked on more than twentythousand bikes(Far more) The poorest built LBS level bike I have ever seen is of a better quality than the nicest department stor bike I have ever seen.
Yes there are some poorly assembled LBS bikes, the numbers pale in comparison to the number of poorly assembled department store bikes. It is rare that I have a LBS bike, from another shop, come in with a dangerous assembly issue. Almost every department store bike that has come in had a dramatic safety issue, from mostly unthreaded pedals, brakes rubbing the tire or hanging off the rim, limit screws completely unadjusted, cables routed so they bind the steering, loose stem or brake levers, loose axle nuts, loose BB. Often several issues on the same bike.
There will always be people on this forum with an opinion of bikes shops based on a few experiences. My opinion, and the opinion of guys like mechbegon, are based on hundreds, thousands of experiences. You don't need to believe us tho, some people still think the Earth is flat.

:beer:

Yeah well , alot of so called mechanics in the LBS are not as experienced as some of the Xmart mechanics...

I'd like to hear more about this. I don't buy it.

There is a clear difference in the quality of the product, period, the end. The statement that "just as many" bad builds come from bike shops as x-mart, is pure hooey!

Is this April Fools Day or Christmas?

So, somebody in another thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=161349&page=5) has asserted that there isn't much difference between the quality in the LBS and X-Mart as far as quality of the bicycles, or the mechanics that work on them. Anybody want to comment? :)

Two things:

First is the quality of the product. Sadly, many people don't know the difference between features and quality. Most mountain bikes, for example offer the same features. Unless you are either an idiot or kidding yourself, you will clearly notice the quality differences when you assemble or tune the bike and when you ride it.

Second is the quality of the service. All bike mechanics aren't created equal but I'd much, much rather take my chances with somebody who considers that his primary job. I'd like to play cards with anybody who thinks otherwise.

Yeah well , alot of so called mechanics in the LBS are not as experienced as some of the Xmart mechanics...

This is so far from the facts as to be almost impossible to argue with rationally. I've never seen anyone in a K-Mart of Wal-Mart that could even be called a bike mechanic. Most are just stock boys that are told to assemble the bikes between stocking the grocery shelves.

What a TROLL.

This is so far from the facts as to be almost impossible to argue with rationally. I've never seen anyone in a K-Mart of Wal-Mart that could even be called a bike mechanic. Most are just stock boys that are told to assemble the bikes between stocking the grocery shelves.

What a TROLL.


Then you can easily cite some factual evidence? So far all that has been stated is opinion. My experiences between x-mart and LBS are about the same, so if you'd like to prove that my experience or the experience of others is not the case overall, perhaps you have some cites?

I worked in a local gas station throughout my teen years, did that make me automatically qualified to overhaul your engine? Did that mean I was beyond screwing up?

I understand the egos of some good wrenches have been called into play by Kris' inflammatory spin on this. Nobody disputes that there are some damn fine people working in LBS - the point is that not all 'bike shops' employ quaility people and not all x-marts are staffed by morons. If anyone can correct me with some facts, I'd love to see them.

One of the posts in this X Mart vs LBS argument requested statistics to back up the statement that LBSs sell superior bikes and prepare them better. As a quality engineer, I can relate to the request, but I'm afraid the sample would be biased. In order to make a fair comparison, one would have to sample mountain bike performance on MTB trails. Comparing trail experiences to asphalt, where kids ride X-Mart bikes, is not a correct sample. I can't speak for any area except the area where I live and ride. I have only seen an X-mart bike on an intermediate or advanced trail once when a group of cub scouts travelled the trail. Considering X-Mart bikes outsell the LBS brand bikes, one would think there would be a large number of X-Mart bikes on the trails, and a direct comparison could be made. Perhaps the experience of MTB cyclists suggests they don't trust the X-Mart bikes on difficult trails. I don't think all those cyclists just enjoy spending additional money. I would be more than happy to take an unbiased sample at the two trails and one MUP path I ride if it would help settle this disagreement. Any comments?

If the point the Pro-Xmart people are trying to make is that Xmart bikes are fine for kids to ride around the neighborhood and are not expected to last a long time or perform as well as a shop-quality bike may under certain circumstances, then they are absolutely right. To say that Xmarts products, workmanship or service are on average better or even as good is ludicrous. Here is one fact (an important one) to back this up: Stamped steel V-brakes are terrible, especially when combined with steel rims and poor setup.

If the point the Pro-Xmart people are trying to make is that Xmart bikes are fine for kids to ride around the neighborhood and are not expected to last a long time or perform as well as a shop-quality bike may under certain circumstances, then they are absolutely right.

Exactly!

To say that Xmarts products, workmanship or service are on average better or even as good is ludicrous. Here is one fact (an important one) to back this up: Stamped steel V-brakes are terrible, especially when combined with steel rims and poor setup.Precisely!

One of the posts in this X Mart vs LBS argument requested statistics to back up the statement that LBSs sell superior bikes and prepare them better. As a quality engineer, I can relate to the request, but I'm afraid the sample would be biased. In order to make a fair comparison, one would have to sample mountain bike performance on MTB trails. Comparing trail experiences to asphalt, where kids ride X-Mart bikes, is not a correct sample. I can't speak for any area except the area where I live and ride. I have only seen an X-mart bike on an intermediate or advanced trail once when a group of cub scouts travelled the trail. Considering X-Mart bikes outsell the LBS brand bikes, one would think there would be a large number of X-Mart bikes on the trails, and a direct comparison could be made. Perhaps the experience of MTB cyclists suggests they don't trust the X-Mart bikes on difficult trails. I don't think all those cyclists just enjoy spending additional money. I would be more than happy to take an unbiased sample at the two trails and one MUP path I ride if it would help settle this disagreement. Any comments?

Good idea. There seems to be the concensus in this thread that all xmart bikes are unrideable garbage, but no testimonials based on first hand riding experience.

For what its worth, I used to wrench at an LBS long, long ago. Back then, the low end, but very servicable bikes came from Japan. The local electronics mega-store started a promo where they gave away a ten speed with items costing as low as $100. These bikes were made in Taiwan.

We got a bunch of these bikes in the store for a once over before they were ridden. We gave the owners (an honest) disclaimer that the bikes were not great quality ad we would not guarantee the work. I found that in general the Taiwanese bikes were definitely a step below the Japanese bikes. The finish was bad, inferior, knock off, derailleurs that worked, but not very smoothly, freewheels with a lot of wobble, caliper brakes that would stop the bike fine but couldn't be adjusted so that there was no play at the brake pivot. Lots of steel instead of alloy but the bikes were usable. The major problem was assembly. The bikes were atrocious. To make them work, you had to go through absolutely everything, including taking apart the BB and headset.

For commuting to school or going to the grocery store, they were sufficient, but for serious riding, no way.

There seems to be the concensus in this thread that all xmart bikes are unrideable garbage, but no testimonials based on first hand riding experience. ...
I've been riding this $125 Xmart Schwinn (http://www.epinions.com/pr-Bikes-Schwinn_Aluminum_Comp_26-inch_Mountain_Bike/display_~full_specs) on this intermediate MTB trail (http://trails.mtbr.com/cat/united-states-trails/trails-north-carolina/trail/PRD_171799_4567crx.aspx#reviews) 1-2 times a week. The wheels that came with this bike were crap, as were the pedals. I put some decent pedals and wheels on, double-checked the assembly, had an LBS mechanic double-check me -- and started riding. It's holding up amazingly well after four months. No component failures or problems. The rear derailleur needed a lot of adjusting at first, but it seems to have settled down now. Otherwise, about all I've done is to lube the chain and and put air in the tires.

I would probably still be saving up for an LBS bike if I hadn't gotten this one as a gift. I'm enjoying the hell out of it.

That's my testimonial based on firsthand riding experience.

Then you can easily cite some factual evidence? So far all that has been stated is opinion. My experiences between x-mart and LBS are about the same, so if you'd like to prove that my experience or the experience of others is not the case overall, perhaps you have some cites?
Cites? Are we arguing a court case? All of my "evidence" is anecdotal as is yours. There have been no formal studies published that I'm aware of to confirm or refute either argument.

My experience is that while bike shops vary in the quality of their mechanics they are, on average, head and shoulders above whoever assembles bikes at X-mart. I've seen many LBS-sourced bikes and attempted to work on a few X-mart bikes and there is no comparison as to either product or assembly quality.


I worked in a local gas station throughout my teen years, did that make me automatically qualified to overhaul your engine? Did that mean I was beyond screwing up?
Maybe it did and maybe it didn't. I assume it didn't and you weren't. However, if you worked in a repair shop or for an automobile dealer's Service Department, I'd expect competence and my experience says that a dealer's mechanics, by and large, are far better than the average pump jockey.

I've been riding this $125 Xmart Schwinn (http://www.epinions.com/pr-Bikes-Schwinn_Aluminum_Comp_26-inch_Mountain_Bike/display_~full_specs) on this intermediate MTB trail (http://trails.mtbr.com/cat/united-states-trails/trails-north-carolina/trail/PRD_171799_4567crx.aspx#reviews) 1-2 times a week. The wheels that came with this bike were crap, as were the pedals. I put some decent pedals and wheels on, double-checked the assembly, had an LBS mechanic double-check me -- and started riding. It's holding up amazingly well after four months. No component failures or problems. The rear derailleur needed a lot of adjusting at first, but it seems to have settled down now. Otherwise, about all I've done is to lube the chain and and put air in the tires.

I would probably still be saving up for an LBS bike if I hadn't gotten this one as a gift. I'm enjoying the hell out of it.

That's my testimonial based on firsthand riding experience.

By the time you replaced the wheels and paid a mechanic to check it over, the cost of the bike had to have ballooned to close to that of a Trek 820 or 3500, especially on sale.

By the time you replaced the wheels and paid a mechanic to check it over, the cost of the bike had to have ballooned to close to that of a Trek 820 or 3500, especially on sale.Oops! You're making too much sense. We're going to have to ask you to leave the thread, sir.
:)

By the time you replaced the wheels and paid a mechanic to check it over, the cost of the bike had to have ballooned to close to that of a Trek 820 or 3500, especially on sale.
WOW, Tough to top that one! A Trek 820 at a 10% off sale, sells for $225. A Schwinn costs about $150. If you add a trip to the LBS to get it set up correctly and maybe add a good deraileur your at $225 or more. My son has a TREK 820, it is a VERY reliable bike that he rides on the local trails with no problems. Good post.

By the time you replaced the wheels and paid a mechanic to check it over, the cost of the bike had to have ballooned to close to that of a Trek 820 or 3500, especially on sale.
I had already bought the wheels used, along with an odd lot of other bike parts, for $30. Gotta love college towns at end of semester. The mechanic is a friend and did it for free. FWIW he didn't find anything wrong.

But your point would probably be valid 85% of the time for most people.

Please let me add to my previous post. I've purchased two X-Mart bikes in the past so I can identify with parents that want to save money when buying a bike. My younger son is not as careful with his possesions as his brother and he grew a lot faster. I decided to buy an inexpensive Wal-Mart, 24 inch wheel size, bike. I purchased the least expensive bike, with no QRs, no suspension and the fewest gears. It was an OK bike. The deraileur wanted to run past the limit screws, and occaisionally, it didn't want to shift correctly, but other than that it functioned OK. I purchased a larger bike 2 years later. Same deal, but a different store. It was a mistake. The brakes were not that great and the deraileur frequently would not shift correctly. Then I bought my youngest son a garage sale special, a 15 year old Gary Fisher HOO KOO E KOO. It ran like a champ! He increased his cycling time and enjoys cycling much more because the GF shifts correctly and has a much better 'feel' to the frame. I know this is not a statistical sample, but it is my experience, the LBS bike, even used LBS bikes are simply better than the X-Mart bikes.

For what its worth, I used to wrench at an LBS long, long ago. Back then, the low end, but very servicable bikes came from Japan. The local electronics mega-store started a promo where they gave away a ten speed with items costing as low as $100. These bikes were made in Taiwan.Is this the "MATTHEWS, top of the hill, Daly City" special? I was heading off to UCSB and I needed a boom-box for the dorm and a bike to get me around. So for $101, I got both! They had a choice between a road-bike and MTB, so I got the MTB since it seemed beefier and would probably stand up to punishment. Taiwanese? I don't think so, it must've been made by prison-slave labor in a far-off Siberian forest using stone-age sticks and stones. Weighted an impressive 39lbs and there wasn't a single alloy part on it (actually it did have alloy rims).

Yeah, the brakes weren't set properly so it squealed. The tyres weren't seated properly and they wobbled. The seat-clamp was loose. At least the one-piece welded handlebar+bar made that assembly idiot-proof. The derailleurs needed adjustments and could only be used in friction mode.

Overall, the bike served its purpose and lasted 8 years, got me through school and beyond. I rode it everywhere, school, downtown, sight-seeing. That's what got me into biking actually. I was sad to see it die one day when a sorority chic backed out of a driveway quickly without looking. You know that "WTF ?@#$%!" look you give people who do that? Well, I gave her that look as I sailed over her bonnet with the greatest of ease. After I picked myself up and walked back around the car, I saw my trusted steed had suffered mortal wounds. The fork was bent back 3-4 inches, the front-wheel was tacoed, the downtube was bent so that I had a 90-degree head-angle. :( At least she bought me a much nicer replacement bike. :)

So overall, I'd say that X-mart bikes are definitely on the lower end of the spectrum than LBS bikes. You'd only want to get one if you're mechanically gifted and can work on every single part yourself and adjust them optimally. It will definitely require more attention in the beginning than a higher-end LBS bike and if you were to bring it in to have all those things done, the costs would end up ballooning to well over the price of the cheapest LBS bike.

Is this the "MATTHEWS, top of the hill, Daly City" special? I was heading off to UCSB and I needed a boom-box for the dorm and a bike to get me around. So for $101, I got both! They had a choice between a road-bike and MTB, so I got the MTB since it seemed beefier and would probably stand up to punishment. Taiwanese? I don't think so, it must've been made by prison-slave labor in a far-off Siberian forest using stone-age sticks and stones. Weighted an impressive 39lbs and there wasn't a single alloy part on it (actually it did have alloy rims).

Yeah, the brakes weren't set properly so it squealed. The tyres weren't seated properly and they wobbled. The seat-clamp was loose. At least the one-piece welded handlebar+bar made that assembly idiot-proof. The derailleurs needed adjustments and could only be used in friction mode.

Overall, the bike served its purpose and lasted 8 years, got me through school and beyond. I rode it everywhere, school, downtown, sight-seeing. That's what got me into biking actually. I was sad to see it die one day when a sorority chic backed out of a driveway quickly without looking. You know that "WTF ?@#$%!" look you give people who do that? Well, I gave her that look as I sailed over her bonnet with the greatest of ease. After I picked myself up and walked back around the car, I saw my trusted steed had suffered mortal wounds. The fork was bent back 3-4 inches, the front-wheel was tacoed, the downtube was bent so that I had a 90-degree head-angle. :( At least she bought me a much nicer replacement bike. :)

So overall, I'd say that X-mart bikes are definitely on the lower end of the spectrum than LBS bikes. You'd only want to get one if you're mechanically gifted and can work on every single part yourself and adjust them optimally. It will definitely require more attention in the beginning than a higher-end LBS bike and if you were to bring it in to have all those things done, the costs would end up ballooning to well over the price of the cheapest LBS bike.

I'm talking ancient history here. This was in Madison Wi. and the dealer was Crazy TV Lenny, he would go on TV ads and act like a psychotic. "I'm crazy to sell sell (whatever)at these prices!" When we wanted to make fun of someone's bike we said "are you riding a Crazy TV Lenny bike?"

Who cares?

Why even bother starting a new thread about this instead of just posting on the thread you linked to?

Who cares?Only the people who see life in black & white, all-or-nothing, yes/no terms. ALL bikes from LBSs aren't perfect and ALL bikes from X-mart aren't complete crap. There's also a lot of overlap in the middle as well. It's a matter of probability and statistics and general tendencies of large sampling sizes. Overall, the tendency is that LBS bikes will cost you more but will leave the shop in a better state of assembly and tune. X-mart bikes will need more cleaning-up and adjustments. Over the course of 5-10 years, the LBS bikes will tend to be more durable and last longer. BUT... it's a generalization and an 80/20 split may be more realistic in any of these assertions.

When I was in sixth grade, my parents went out and bought us each (four kids) an X-Mart MTB. The assembly was okay - after all, I did it. We got the bikes in boxes (cheaper, that way) and I, a twelve year-old kid who didn't know a damn thing about bikes, put mine and a couple of the other ones together. That bike served me for almost seven years. I didn't ride an awful lot for most of those years, although I did start picking up that bike a lot more often when I got to be fifteen and sixteen years old and realized that I needed to get away from my house, from time to time.

When I got to college in the fall of '04 and really started racking up daily mileage, the bike did begin to get a little rough. I got rid of it for a used road bike when I noticed that the front wheel had developed a serious wobble - I didn't know, at the time, that it was possible to tighten the cones up. I turned the bike into a singlespeed to ride around during the winter, at which point it pretty much self-destructed within three days. In the last year and a half, and pretty much because of that bike and the used one I bought to replace it, my long-standing, latent interest in developed into a full-blown passion.

It's a long story, so the summary is that that bike gave me wheels for a long time, when there was no possible way for me to have wheels any other way. I used that bike to ride twenty miles on the bike path to the next town and back, to drop off job applications and visit a friend. I rode it to class almost every single day for my first semester of college. I can't say I ever loved it, in that time, and I do not lament its passing, but I'm glad that I had it.

Now, on the other hand, the 100 dollars I spent to have that bike tuned at a real bike shop after my senior year of high school was some of the worst money I ever spent. And, bad as my bike could be, I see X-Mart bikes every day on campus that I wouldn't let my worst enemy ride. My bike had alloy rims, seven speeds, and linear-pull brakes, all for about $100. That seems like a minimum to me; all the bikes I've seen for less have steel rims, shoddy components, and scary-looking brakes. The stamped sidepull death brakes that most Murray "mountain bikes" are equipped with make me feel nervous just from looking at them on a motionless bike. The biggest factor, though, is care. My bike lasted me so long because I took care of it (well, riding down stairs with it wasn't such a good idea, but that was an exception). Few owners of X-Mart bikes make any effort to ensure that their vehicle functions smoothly and safely. It's fair to say that X-Mart bikes are sold to just that market: people who don't care, just as long as they have something to ride. It's not a good match-up of a product to a market, and is probably a significant factor in the condition of most of the cheap bikes you see around.

There's truth to both sides of this discussion. A bike, any bike can do wonderful things for you. With any bike, you have to care for it if you want it to carry you far. That has nothing to do with love, or feelings or craftsmanship. As I said, I didn't like that bike very much. I had no regrets when I tossed it beside the dumpster. It's just the simple fact that, if you take care of a machine, it will take of you. The difference between a "real" bike and an X-Mart bike is that, usually, it takes a much greater investment of care in the cheap bike to keep it running safe and smooth. To some of us, it's worth paying a premium for peace of mind. Me, I try for the best of both worlds - I buy used good bikes. So far, it's working out for me. It's cliche, but "your mileage may vary." True here as it is anywhere else.

Is this the "MATTHEWS, top of the hill, Daly City" special?

OMG!!!!! The Firenze bikes!!!! Steven Matthew Fifteen-speed!!!!

Oh man - being in the Bay Area, we used to get those in the shop all the time. We wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole. The only one I ever put into a repair stand just about gave me a hernia.

Thanks for bringing back such bad, but hilarious, memories!!!

Since I've never had experience with department store bike mechanics, I won't jump in and start deriding them. I would guess though that most of them aren't hired as bike mechanics, but rather as general help. If they can turn a wrench a bit, then that's a plus. On the other hand I've had a fair amount of contact with LBS mechanics. I live in an area where there's a lot of shops and many options for bike repair. It has been my experience that many LBS mechanics aren't good enough to get a job at WallyMart slapping together the lead pipe garage decorations. But, your only chance of finding a good mechanic lies within the LBS, if you can find one. The best shop is attached to my house:the garage. For most cyclists the same is true. These are very simple machines that require not much more than fundamental cleaning and lubrication on a regular basis. Virtually all adjustments for road bikes are straight forward and there's gobs of literature and internet information available for help.
In general it absolutely amazes me that so many smart people spend so much money letting a LBS mechanic do a fair to poor job working on their bikes. How mant times have we seen posts about mechanics blaming so much on "cable stretch", swearing that all of the noise caused by the chain rubbing the front derailleur cage is normal, how many posters have written that their bike was worse after the LBS wrench worked on it? How many different quotes have we heard from LBS wrenches about what to lube, with what, and how often? They're either guessing (too embarrassed to admit their ignorance) or they're trying to sell more of the $5 per ounce lube.
Yeah, I'm suspicious of anyone I'm not familiar with. And if I get the sense that a wrench doesn't know as much as I do, or if he (or she) is clearly full of excrement, I wouldn't even buy bar tape from the LBS.

FWIW, as a suburban DINK, I admit that I am evil incarnate. :)

I got you beat - I own a big bad SUV, and I friggin' love it!! :D

WOW, Tough to top that one! A Trek 820 at a 10% off sale, sells for $225. A Schwinn costs about $150. If you add a trip to the LBS to get it set up correctly and maybe add a good deraileur your at $225 or more. My son has a TREK 820, it is a VERY reliable bike that he rides on the local trails with no problems. Good post.

I am going to have to agree with this. The low end brand name stuff is still great stuff (likely due to trickle down technology). My buddy rode the living CRAP out of an alivio equipped bike on phoenix's national trail (way-way-way rough) for two years before he finally upgraded due to pride, not equipment failure.

Still, I grew up jumping my bannana seat boy scout painted bike from a department store off "sweet jumps" made of plywood and straw-bales. I loved that bike. That bike sparked my love for bikes/biking. There is a time and place for each type of product.

Moreover, the majority of commuters I pass each day are riding department store bikes with the seat way too low (you know the type). That may not be efficient or comfortable, but it certainly qualifies as "real" riding to me. Those bikes are used every day. Of course, these are usually the types of riders who will ride a bike with a squeeky chain and ghost shifting for months doing nothing about it because they don't even know the problem is fixable. Rather, they blame it on the faulty equipment.

Just a short story to add to the pile. I used to work at a shop that sold a variety of sporting goods, mostly skis in the winter and bikes in the summer. We sold dozens of low-end bikes for every decent bike. That meant we had to assemble dozens of these cheap bikes in advance of the first big sale weekend. The techs got $10 to assemble kids bikes and $20 for the adult bikes. We had one guy who worked part-time in the shop who volunteered to do all the kid's bikes. The other guys were fine with that, as they would get more money per bike. The part-timer started off doing 3 bikes/hour, which quickly became 4, then 6. The other guys could maybe do 1 bike every 40 minutes.

The upshot of this was that after the part-timer had been paid and moved on to another shop, we had to go over his bikes with a fine-toothed comb. Bolts were finger tight, stems misaligned, brakes didn't brake, etc. We couldn't understand how this had happened, 'cause the part-timer was a really good tech who was normally one of our best guys. It turns out that our purchaser had told him to just "get 'em built", and that the full-time shop guys would check the bikes over before they went out the door. As a result, there was no reason for him to do a good job. The purchaser hired him back the following year to build more bikes, despite the vocal protestation of the regular shop staff.

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daewoo mercedes

your geeeeeting sleeeepy

The techs got $10 to assemble kids bikes and $20 for the adult bikes.

Big box stores pay "per bike" for assembly (I've heard that at some it's as little as $7 per bike), and there is no one there qualified to check the build, let alone being worried about it. Being the evil bastard that I am I take pride in checking over those big box builds, the same way my boss checked over my builds when I was learning the craft. (my first build took 3+ hours because every time I took it to him to proof my work he found stuff wrong - I learned pretty fast what it meant to properly assemble a bike) So anyway, I'll pass the bike department, and put a front tire between my legs, grab the handlebar and give it a gentle twist - they often turn with little resistance. Then put my thumbs on the brake levers and push them down, same with the shifters if they are separate. Then the same with the seat. By then my wife has usually found me and gives be a dirty look and an elbow to the kidneys and tells me to "knock that off". I just tell her I'm saving lives...could imagine riding a bike assembled like that off a curb or something? Jeez.

Not to defend the current crop of LBS assemblers, but at least there is more likely to be someone at the LBS who could deal with any issues...plus you get that free post-sale tuneup, and free adjustments from most shops. Try getting that at Costco ;)

Nobody seems to mention anything about the performance of the bikes you get at xmart compared to LBS bikes, only their basic reliability---like how likely you are to be killed on onein it's first year. I bought a bmx from an xmart a few years ago, which worked ok, but then again, I couldn't do anything on it so I wouldn't have been able to tell. But, what about say, road bikes? Xmarts don't even sell anything that even looks like a road bike. What about component quality and weight? Frame stiffness and 'feel'? Wheelsets? There's reasons that xmart bikes cost less.

Well, again my experience is probably far from typical, and I've never owned any other MTB, but...

I pass other riders regularly on the local MTB trail (almost all of them on LBS bikes), and I've been passed only once in the last four months. I don't hesistate to fly over bumps or to go fast on the straightaway/downhill sections. I've been doing small jumps (1' - 2') lately with no problems. I'm just going to keep improving my skills and trying tougher stuff until the darn thing breaks.

Frankly, part of me has been hoping it would break because destroying it would demonstate that I'm ready to 'graduate' to a higher level of riding, requiring a more serious bike. But, like my 15-year-old, 250,000 mi car, so far it just keeps on tickin'.