Bicycle Mechanics - 8-speed to 9-speed upgrade

I own a 2002 Trek 4500 hardtail that I puchased earlier this year and I am thinking of upgrading my drive train down the road. I have entered a few threads concerning what F/S to buy or opinions on certain F/S bikes. Well, I have decided to stay with my hardtail for now and upgrade it. After the upgrading, I would like to buy a F/S frame and rear shock and put my upgrades from my hardtail on it. Most of the higher end bikes I have tested all come with a 9-speed drive train. Mine, of course, is an 8-speed set-up. Well, I would like to upgrade my bike to a 9-speed. On that note, here come the questions:

1. If I replaced the cassette with a 9-sp, does that mean I would have to change the chain, rings, deraillures, and shifters as well?

2. I noticed at Pricepoint.com that alot there 9-sp drive train components were mega-9 to be used with mega-9. Does this mean I would have to use all mega-9 deraillure components if I purchase a mega-9 cassette? In other words, do I have to use the same brand names?

I hope these aren't stupid questions. Any info on this or a web site that offers this info would be greatly appreciated. Thanx

You will need a new chain to fit that new cassette. The rear derailler you already have will likely work on the nine speed just fine. Front derailler- no change; Shifters- get new ones. As far as using parts from the same company, you don't really have to, but you'll run into fewer problems if they are the same.

I upgraded a Trek 4500 to a 9 speed a few months ago and had to change the front and rear der, shifters, cassette and chain. I also changed the fork.

With that being said I am getting ready to take it all off and put the original back on in order to sell the bike. I found that upgrading the components it was still basically an entry level mountain bike.

I decided to buy a 2003 Specialized Stumpjumper which is a much lighter and stiffer frame.

To my way of thinking, the major improvement that 9sp has to offer on mountain bikes is, in fact, Megarange. With an 11-34T cassette, you have a very wide range of gearing from the middle ring. So if you get 9sp, getting an 11-34T is probably a good idea. I think all of Shimano's long-cage mountain 9sp rear derailleurs are officially Megarange-compatible, which is just a matter of being able to take up the chain slack on such a drivetrain.

I like the Sachs chains, which seem stronger than the Shimano chains.

If you do not need the 34 tooth big cog,you are wasting time and MONEY and giving up reliability. Sachs ESP shiifters and rear derailers only work with each other.

The only reason I wanted to go 9-speed is because all of the higher end bikes are 9-speed and eventually I will get a F/S frame w/ shock to transfer the components to.
Where ever I look for deraileurs, I find more and more 9 speed and not many 8-speeds. Are 8's being phased out? Will a 9-speed deraileur work with an 8-speed cassette or is it visa versa?
I have also seen some threads where it states you need new chain rings with a 9-sp. I want lighter and more reliable components. Right now I am running Alivio front and rear der. and have no clue what cassette, rings or BB I have (Bontrager maybe?). Treks website states "mountain mix". For an entry level bike, my 4500 has given me no problems and has taken a beating. It's scratched up as hell though...LOL.
I think upgrading will give me more mechanical experience and it seems fun to me. Since I don't have the money for a new bike (had new baby girl), upgrading would be cheaper for now and give me a little "ME TIME" when i can't ride in the winter.
Do any of you have have any suggestions on a good upgrade package..i.e. f and r der., cassette, BB, shifters, chain that would be reliable for a guy on a budget and where to purchase these items?
Thanx everyone.

Honestly,if you do not know that a 9 speed derailer works with an 8 speed cassette, why are you even messing with this stuff?You may also find that when you upgrade frames,many things may or may not transfer.If it ain't broke,why throw money away? LX is cost effective and good enough for most,unless you have an excess money problem.

Well Pokey, I don't know if a 9-sp der. will work with an 8-sp cassette and that is why I am here asking these questions. I am sorry if I sound like an idiot, but I just want to learn. I am not going to just start taking my bike apart unless I am confident. In a thread above, i was told that I could likely use an 8-sp der. with a nine speed cassette. I also know the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" comment as well. I do plan on keeping my old components after upgrading.

Eric,

I spent all last summer upgrading my Raleigh M80 that I bought off eBay for $300, so I can relate to your situation.

So, here are my thoughts. . .

Fork first. Going from the entry level fork to an air sprung fork like a Duke or Mars will save a pound or more, give you more adjustment and a better ride. The cost will be the same as a full 9-speed upgrade. Stay with an 80mm fork, though, to preserve your orginal geometry.

9-speed. . .

With the exception of the rear der, which will work with 8-speed, the entire 9-speed drivetrain must be run together to be reliable.

When you're ready to go 9-speed you'll need to replace - crankset, bottom bracket, cassette, chain, shifters, front der and rear der.

Crankset - Shimano LX. Only 9 grams heavier than XT, but 40% less expensive. $50-60.

Bottom bracket - Shimano ES70. $20-30.

Cassette - I like the XT here. It'll run around $40 new, but be noticeably lighter than LX.

Chain - I love the SRAM/Sachs chains with Power Link. Strong and easy to clean. $25-35.

Shifters - LX. Virtually the same weight as XT and XTR, but much cheaper. I just bought a pair new off eBay for $23. Mail order expect to pay $50-60.

Front and rear ders - LX is fine. If you want to upgrade the rear, go to XTR and skip XT to get meaningful weight savings and bulletproof reliability. $40-50 total, new.

So, fork or 9-speed? If you're not getting good reliabilty from your 8-speed setup, I suggest a new chain and a tune-up before doing anything major to it. My 8-speed setup was very reliable. I only upgraded to satisfy my 9-speed envy and to lose some weight. I upgraded my fork to a Mars Elite, though, before going 9-speed. The difference from the Rock Shox Jett was HUGE.

BTW, all my upgraded parts now hang on my the Giant NRS frame I bought last winter - again, from eBay.

Hope this helps.

You don't need to change the bottom bracket or the crankset on a trek 4500 to go to 9 speed. The crank and bottom bracket are the same one they used on the lower end 9 speed bikes.

You need to change the shifters and brake levers because they are one piece, front and rear der, cassette and chain that's it.

The fork is the first thing I would replace and maybe the only thing, because the fork that comes on the 4500 is not a very good one.

Wait until your 8-speed shifters wear out.

Stick with your 8spd shifters Eric, the fork is whats going to make your bike behave better.

I guess that I envied envied the whole 9Spd thing too, , but some I know say that 8spd was more reliable, ie less missed shifts. Some even are looking for 8spd XT & XTR components to run on their currently 9spd bikes!!

IMO there's no point in going 9 speed unless you really want/need that 34t cog. but then again i just went from 7sp to 8sp recently, so i haven't been keeping up with the industry...

Eric it is also my reccomendation that you stick to 8 speed until it wears out breaks or falls apart.
pokey,
Sram makes ESP shifters not Sachs.

Originally posted by Eric
(had new baby girl)

Hey Eric, CONGRATULATIONS!!! :thumbup:

Now, Ya gettin' any sleep? :D

Thanx Cipher. We get plenty of sleep. Audrey was sleeping at least 4 hours at night when we first brought her home and now she averages 10hrs at 7 months plus her cat naps during the day.

Anyways, maybe I will stick with my 8 sp. It just seems like it is getting harder to find 8 sp drivetrain upgrades these days and I will have to go 9 eventually. Maybe I will do the shock for now.
I now someone already mentioned this, but again, can I run a 9 sp der. and shift set with my 8 sp cassette? I just wanted a few more opinions. Thanx :D

The 9 speed rear derailleur will work fine on 8 speed, the front 9 speed der. cage is typically a little narrower, so it will work but the adjustment needs to be right on.

Remember that the 9 speed cassette is real close in stack height to the 8 speed cassette (that's why you don't have to do anything to the rear wheel freehub body)--this tells you that you have 9 gear stops in the same rear derailleur travel as an 8 speed set up. So the distance the rear der travels per click in the shifter is different between the 8 and 9 speed shifters.

Sometimes you can get the shifters functional, but it is truly a class B fit.

The 9 speed rear derailleur will work fine on 8 speed, the front 9 speed der. cage is typically a little narrower, so it will work but the adjustment needs to be right on.

Remember that the 9 speed cassette is real close in stack height to the 8 speed cassette (that's why you don't have to do anything to the rear wheel freehub body)--this tells you that you have 9 gear stops in the same rear derailleur travel as an 8 speed set up. So the distance the rear der travels per click in the shifter is different between the 8 and 9 speed shifters.

Sometimes you can get the shifters functional, but it is truly a class B fit.

BTW Congrats

Originally posted by --walt--
[B

Remember that the 9 speed cassette is real close in stack height to the 8 speed cassette (that's why you don't have to do anything to the rear wheel freehub body)--this tells you that you have 9 gear stops in the same rear derailleur travel as an 8 speed set up. So the distance the rear der travels per click in the shifter is different between the 8 and 9 speed shifters.

Sometimes you can get the shifters functional, but it is truly a class B fit.

BTW Congrats [/B] More simply stated, shimano 8 speed cog spacing is 4.8mm and 9 speed is 4.34mm.

Would I need to run a 9 speed chain as well, if I am using a 9sp der.? Or, is a 9 sp chain only needed with the 9 sp. cassette.
Also, from what I am gathering here, I can use a 9 sp der. with my 8 sp shifters because of spacing between cogs.
Also, I have been looking at pricepoint.com for prices on ders. and there are different sizes and models for front and rear 9 sp. as well as short to long cage for rear der. How would I know what to get. I assume that a long cage would be for a cassette with a larger low cog..perhaps? but I don't know where the breaking point is between med. and long cage...thanx again

Originally posted by Eric
Would I need to run a 9 speed chain as well, if I am using a 9sp der.? Or, is a 9 sp chain only needed with the 9 sp. cassette.
Also, from what I am gathering here, I can use a 9 sp der. with my 8 sp shifters because of spacing between cogs.
Also, I have been looking at pricepoint.com for prices on ders. and there are different sizes and models for front and rear 9 sp. as well as short to long cage for rear der. How would I know what to get. I assume that a long cage would be for a cassette with a larger low cog..perhaps? but I don't know where the breaking point is between med. and long cage...thanx again given the big difference in cog spacing between 8 and 9, IF 9 speed shifters if do work with an 8 speed speed cassette,it isnt' likely to to be well. You match front derailer to setttube diameter and chainring size. Cage length has nothing to do with the ability or inability to shift a large cog.Cage length is about ability to wrap chain.Buy the cage length necessary to handle your tooth spread..Tooth spread is # of teeth on large ring,minus # of teeth on small ring + # of teeth on large cog minus # of teeth on small cog.If your rear derailer is long cage,buy a long cage, if you are not making changes in front chainring size or big changes in large rear cog. You don't need a a 9 speed chain.Your RD derailer will work fine. Check the www.branfordbike.com catalogue for possible specs on derailer capacities. You might be surprised at the amount of 8 speed stuff available if you look in the right places, and save yourself alot of potential headaches. I prefer to get mine from cheap whiskey, not from component incompatiability hassles.