Bicycle Mechanics - Upgrading from downtube shifters

I've got a 15 year old road bike that I've feshened up with new tires, chain, 7 speed gear cluster and seat. I like the bike, but would like it better if I didn'thave to let go of the handlebar to shift. Is there an inexpensive way to get the shifters near the hand position? The derraileur is Shimano 105, non indexed, but a mechanic told me the indexing is all in the shifter and I could install STI brake levers.
Thnks,
Rich

Its my guess that this would be very expensive! I don't believe that STI shifting is avaliable for a 7 speed. (You would need a new drive train in the rear. (8 or 9 speed). Bar end shifters may be an option you would consider. (I recall seeing some from Shimano in a Nashbar catalog).

7 speed should be available in STI. Prolly RSX level.

Have you considered bar-end shifters? They work reasonably well and are a lot more affordable than STI.

They are still available from Nashbar: http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=&subcategory=&brand=&sku=3043&storetype=&estoreid=

Mike has the right idea. You should also be able to find barcons on eBay from time to time. I still like the positive, fast action of downtube levers ...

and the fact that friction in the front means that you will never have the chain rubbing on the front derailleur

The mechanic is full of sheot! The derailers both front and rear have to be index compatible with STI shifting or any index shifting system for that matter. It's all about cable pull and deralier throw ratios and it ain't all in the shifter..!! The derailer is not dumb and has to know what tune to dance to.. RSX 7 speed sti is history, as new stock,but can still be found used. Sora is available as 7 speed sti and 8 speed shimano STI will shift a index capable shimano 7 speed cluster as the cog spacing is not the same but close enough to work. Bar ends in friction mode front and rear solve lots of problems and are cheaper.Shimano downtube and barend shifters have both a index and friction mode for the rear.

Another poster (cyclochica?) recently mentioned Kelly Take Offs (http://www.kellybike.com/takeoffs.html). I don't know of anyone who's used them, but the concept seems pretty viable. Probably more $$$ than bar-ends, but less than STI. Just another alternative...

i went to my lbs to see if they could move my non-indexed shifters, and basically, they told me that they could do it, but it would be more money then the bike was worth. The main problem, as i heard it, was that it was difficult to fine-tune the shift-points for the shifters. The fix for this is that they install in-line adjusters (barrel adjusters on the cables) , but they dont work very well, and decent STIs are expensive.

I went through this a couple of years ago for the same reason, keeping my hands on the bar. I highly recommend bar end shifters. You can get the Dura Ace 9-sp shifters for about $55-60, and that is all you need. You can use them in friction mode on anything from 5 to 9 speed systems. So at some point you could put a 9 sp wheel on and still use the same shifters. In order to use them in indexing mode you would probably need a new rear der.
FWIW,
Raymond

Well, the bar ends sound like a good alternative. I looked at the Kelly link and I like the fact that they are accesible to the hood and drop position. I'll have a closer look at the lbs. Now, I always thought that the derraileur had to be index style to work with indexed levers, so I was surprised when this mechanic said Sora shifters would work with the derraileur I already have. He quoted 128.00 for the setup, so I was thinking I might, but it could get into one of those situations where one change leads to another--$$$!
Thanks for the responses,
Rich

You have a 7-speed cassette dating back 15 years. I'm aware that derailleurs from 1992 onwards are compatible (except for early Dura Ace), so your derailleur might also be compatible with current indexing systems.

As Sheldon Brown says here (http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html), spacing is similar for 7-speed and 8-speed cassettes, and narrower for 9-speed cassettes.

If you buy new shifters, they are likely to be 9-speed. Somewhere in the instructions PDF, on the Shimano-Europe website (http://www.shimano-europe.com) , there are set-up instructions on how to install current 9-speed shifters with an 8-speed (or 7-speed) cassette. Basically, you thred the cable on the other side of the clamp bolt of the derailleur.

However, you might be able to get some 8-speed shifters that a shop would like to get rid of... or, if you visit a shop specialised in maintenance rather than sales, you might make a good deal because someone else would have upgraded to 9 speed. Some shops sell used parts like that at a decent price...

If you opt for bar-end shifters, they should be cheaper than STI. Besides, you could always decide to use them in friction mode if your derailleur doesn't like indexing.

Finally, one point to consider when you decide between STI and bar-end shifters. Bar-end shifters (indexed or non-indexed) allow you to shift through a wide range of gears -- for instance at intersections -- whereas with STI, you shift one gear at a time.

Regards,

coaster,..did you not buy the part where I said the derailer has to be index capable to work with index shifters? Makes no difference whether the shifters are Sora or not.Being your bike is 15 years old,and shimano came up with index shifting in 1985, your RD is possibly index capable even tho you ae not aware of it and the bike may have been equipped with friction shifters. The fFD is certainly not SIT compatible.

Originally posted by mgagnonlv


If you buy new shifters, they are likely to be 9-speed. Somewhere in the instructions PDF, on the Shimano-Europe website (http://www.shimano-europe.com) , there are set-up instructions on how to install current 9-speed shifters with an 8-speed (or 7-speed) cassette. Basically, you thred the cable on the other side of the clamp bolt of the derailleur.





Finally, one point to consider when you decide between STI and bar-end shifters. Bar-end shifters (indexed or non-indexed) allow you to shift through a wide range of gears -- for instance at intersections -- whereas with STI, you shift one gear at a time.

Regards, Well,you have managed to mangle a few of the stories. First is that using 9 speed shifters with an 8 speed cassette also requires the 9 speed DA rear derailer with the alternate cable mount position.One could also use a pre 9 speed DA RD with 9 speed shifters to shift a shimano 8 speed cassette.Trying to make it work with the 7 speed is more problematic since that cog spacing is different from the 8 speed. Second is that STI can be shifted down 3 cogs at a time and up only one at a time. Another point is that new shifters do not have to be bought as 9 speed. Soras are available as 7 or 8 speed.

Originally posted by roadbuzz
Another poster (cyclochica?) recently mentioned Kelly Take Offs (http://www.kellybike.com/takeoffs.html). I don't know of anyone who's used them, but the concept seems pretty viable. Probably more $$$ than bar-ends, but less than STI. Just another alternative...


I still haven't decided if I am going to go with the Take Off kit since someone suggested I get bar-end shifters. I am waiting to see if I can get a decent pair. The kit is about $25-$30 more than bar-ends and less than STI. I found a site that sells the kit for about $15 less than Kelly. If I can't find some bar-ends then I am going ahead and getting the kit.

phatman, I'm in your area (annapolis) I IM'd you earlier this week.. I have a set of slightly used 105 shifters off of my 01 cdale. How much are u looking to spend on shifters?

Originally posted by roadbuzz
Another poster (cyclochica?) recently mentioned Kelly Take Offs (http://www.kellybike.com/takeoffs.html). I don't know of anyone who's used them, but the concept seems pretty viable. Probably more $$$ than bar-ends, but less than STI. Just another alternative...

I checked out the Kelly Kit. It looked expensive and like a lot of jery-rigged hardware. In addition to the shifter kit, they charge you if you want cable mountings too. I think you have to supply your own shifter hardware as well, making the Kelly kit a simple mounting bracket.

Bar-end shifters are tidy, time proven, and not too expensive. Nashbar has them on sale for $46.00 http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=&subcategory=&brand=&sku=3043&storetype=&estoreid=

If money is tight, I always wondered if you couldn't get some bar mounted thumb shifters off of a 1980's or early 90's vintage mountain bike (keep your eyes on the dumpsters for hot pink and electric neon green). These were essentially friction shifters. I think you could mount them to the ends of drop bars.

Has anybody tried this? Rainman? JohnE?

Originally posted by mike


I checked out the Kelly Kit. It looked expensive and like a lot of jery-rigged hardware. In addition to the shifter kit, they charge you if you want cable mountings too. I think you have to supply your own shifter hardware as well, making the Kelly kit a simple mounting bracket.

Exactly right, and as I said, an expensive solution to nothing(opinion). Got two pair in my junk boxes.

Originally posted by pokey
coaster,.. shimano came up with index shifting in 1985,

Suntour had the Mighty Click rear derialleur/index shift system, in 1980. Shimano had to wait until a 1964 Suntour patent to run out before they introduced SIS shifting which came out in the Dura Ace EX system.

If your going to upgrade, upgrade. Don't fool around with silly bar-end shifters where you still have to take your hands off the brake hoods to shift unless you have aero-bars for TT. You can get 7 or 8 speed STI levers from e-bay or perhaps a local shop very reasonable. The 8 speed STI works great with 7 speed freewheel. With indexed shifting you will need a new STI era front derailleur.
As I stated in another thread, on my TT bike I have a 7 speed freewheel, 9 speed crankset, 9 speed chain, 8 speed index shifting and it shifts like a dream. I've built a number of similar set-up bikes and have had no problems.

Originally posted by Hunter


Suntour had the Mighty Click rear derialleur/index shift system, in 1980. Shimano had to wait until a 1964 Suntour patent to run out before they introduced SIS shifting which came out in the Dura Ace EX system. So maybe you are talking about the 1964 slant paralleogram rear derailer design patent? Actually, "Suntour had an indexed 5 Speed click in 1969, which they did not foll through with. Suntour introduced the Mighty click rear derailer with index levers in 1980.It sold poorly.Makers were not rady for index shifting in 1980"; From history of Suntour by Frank Berto. My reference was to the SUCCESSFUL Shimano SIS system which has been continually developedd through today. His stuff is Shimano, to which my reference refered, and therefore has no bearing on anything of Suntours. consider the context and what product 1985 referenced.

Pokey, I bought the bike new in 1987. As mentioned, it has Simano 600 RD (same for shifters). There were other bikes in the showroom at that time with indexed shifting that were labelled 600 EX. I couldn't see the advantage of having this feature at that time. A few weeks ago, I replced my 6 cog set with a 7 cog set. A little adjusting at the RD and it works fine. Ar you saying that the my current RD "might" work with indexed shifting?

"Being your bike is 15 years old,and shimano came up with index shifting in 1985, your RD is possibly index capable even tho you ae not aware of it and the bike may have been equipped with friction shifters. The fFD is certainly not SIT compatible."

If so, then maybe the mechanic was not wrong to suggest that the Sora shiftrs would work?
Thanks,
Rich

Originally posted by pokey
So maybe you are talking about the 1964 slant paralleogram rear derailer design patent? Actually, "Suntour had an indexed 5 Speed click in 1969, which they did not foll through with. Suntour introduced the Mighty click rear derailer with index levers in 1980.It sold poorly.Makers were not rady for index shifting in 1980"; From history of Suntour by Frank Berto. My reference was to the SUCCESSFUL Shimano SIS system which has been continually developedd through today. His stuff is Shimano, to which my reference refered, and therefore has no bearing on anything of Suntours. consider the context and what product 1985 referenced.

Oh yes I am sorry! I apologize to all who read my reply to pokey. I should have guessed at what pokey truely meant. I should read between the lines without any given specifics, and assume what is posted should be thought of in a different way other than the original text.

Coaster,
You can use your rear derailleur. Sora STI and Sora FD would be a quality upgrade for you while investing a minimal amount of money. I would recommend 8 speed in case you want to upgrade to 8 speed at a later date.

Originally posted by Hunter


Oh yes I am sorry! I apologize to all who read my reply to pokey. I should have guessed at what pokey truely meant. I should read between the lines without any given specifics, and assume what is posted should be thought of in a different way other than the original text. why not put it in context and move on hunter?

Originally posted by Coaster
Pokey, I bought the bike new in 1987. As mentioned, it has Simano 600 RD (same for shifters). There were other bikes in the showroom at that time with indexed shifting that were labelled 600 EX. I couldn't see the advantage of having this feature at that time. A few weeks ago, I replced my 6 cog set with a 7 cog set. A little adjusting at the RD and it works fine. Ar you saying that the my current RD "might" work with indexed shifting?



If so, then maybe the mechanic was not wrong to suggest that the Sora shiftrs would work?
Thanks,
Rich Coaster, since the indexed ones had 600 ex RDs and your doesn't maybe that tells you something.??Another way to consider it:try it, andIf it don't work, a decent RD either new or used is relatively cheap .I often do the same thing,then go to plan 'B'.Part of the learning process.

Why bother? Pokey is so eager to put his ignorance on display on a variety of topics that it's pointless to continue arguing with someone who obviously doesn't ride much. Just put him on your ignore list. Like a pesky fly, they will eventually go away or die under the weight of their own b.s.


Originally posted by Hunter


Oh yes I am sorry! I apologize to all who read my reply to pokey. I should have guessed at what pokey truely meant. I should read between the lines without any given specifics, and assume what is posted should be thought of in a different way other than the original text.

Originally posted by pokey
why not put it in context and move on hunter?

I would think twice if I were you before making an issue of who should move on...


Oh, almost forgot! Learn how to spell!!! My head hurts after reading one of your posts and trying to figure out what you are trying to say... (Even after you've edited it!)

I use the Kelly Take-Offs on my road bike, and I love 'em. Because I had a lot of spare parts around, I bought only the $40 mounts plus some d-tube cable stops for $10. My shifters are Shimano 7 speed with rear indexing, which are now running an XT rear der flawlessly. I don't like the feel of STI at all in comparison, but that's just a personal taste. I like being able to fire through all the gears with one pull of the lever, and I like the precise feel of downtube levers.

Also, I'd like to thank everyone filling up the thread with their personal arguments. :rolleyes: Try the private messages.

Thanks for your input, it's all helpful (all except the personal arguments that is).
Rich

Originally posted by es_seattle


Also, I'd like to thank everyone filling up the thread with their personal arguments. :rolleyes: Try the private messages.

And you helped this by reviving a dead thread and contributing to it?
The solution is to start a new thread on your valuable comments about the Kelly TO's. There is alot of interest in them and user's opinions would be helpful.

I still haven't decided if I am going to go with the Take Off kit since someone suggested I get bar-end shifters. I am waiting to see if I can get a decent pair. The kit is about $25-$30 more than bar-ends and less than STI. I found a site that sells the kit for about $15 less than Kelly. If I can't find some bar-ends then I am going ahead and getting the kit.

I've got an old road bike that I was thinking about adding the Take Offs onto - what is the website that has the kit cheaper? have you started using them? found any reviews on them?
Thanks

You can't upgrade from downtube shifters. They are the lightest, most reliable, most precise sort of shifters for a bike. If you chose to downgrade to STI, you will be spending a LOT of money. Rivendell sells bar-end shifters that are popular with tourers, who often must shift with both hands on the bars of heavily loaded bikes.

I think people get freaked out because there's no exact spot for the gears and they don't like the "touch and go" feeling.

I for one miss it...

Did someone say downgrade to STI? I recall after installing a used set of 105 STI,s afew years ago thinking something along the lines of this being the greatest improvement since gears themselves. Still riding the same (now 19 year old) bike, still lovin' those doubly used 105 STI's!
Rich

I've got an old road bike that I was thinking about adding the Take Offs onto - what is the website that has the kit cheaper? have you started using them? found any reviews on them?
ThanksThis thread was over 2 years old when you dug it up.

Well I dug it up again. I'm looking to upgrade stem mounted friction shifters to indexed if it's worth it..Old threads never die....

Well I dug it up again. I'm looking to upgrade stem mounted friction shifters to indexed if it's worth it..Old threads never die....

Pretty smelly digging if you ask me, the thread was so full of baloney it's not even funny. You can convert 7-sp Shimano downtube shifters using 7-sp Sora brifters, which are relatively cheap and can be bought online at many place - Google "7-sp Sora" and go for it. All the usual replies ("don't convert", "use bar-ends", "change all derailleurs", "7sp parts don't exist anymore", "use Kelly Take-offs", whatnot) are useless as usual.

For your new twist on the old thread, if you have brazed-on lever mounts on the frame (even though you have stem-mount levers), you can go the Sora way as is; otherwise, you will need some sort of mounting point for the cable stops on the downtube, the easiest being to find a used band-mount set of downtube levers, ditch the levers and mount the band with the lever mounting points, and use the cable stops supplied with the brifters over the lever mounting points. As long as you have a Shimano RD and a 7-sp Shimano-compatible freewheel or freehub/cassette, you're good to go. I've even used the Sora levers on a Suntour FD with Suntour Ovaltech cranks, and it works fine.

Finally someone who knows what they are talking about....No offense to the previous posters..I like getting advise from someone who has made this kind of thing work...Thanks..

You have resurrected an old thread, and therefore are apparently likely to be flamed (or at least eaten by a Grue). But the timing is funny in that I am just going through an upgrade and was going through my spare parts, and I now have a set of Kelly Takeoffs and a set of Shimano 7-speed (triple) STI brifters (Sora I guess--they have the single brake lever and the small "thumb-flick" lever like Campy Record). I'd let the STI's go for $40 shipping included and DT cable stops, and the Takeoffs $20 with DT cable stops and shipping (in the US).

FWIW, I've used the STI's with an XT and a couple of 600-level rear ders, and they worked flawlessly.

Message me if anyone is interested.

PM sent about the Kellys

Finally someone who knows what they are talking about....No offense to the previous posters..I like getting advise from someone who has made this kind of thing work...Thanks..

It's possible the previous posters won't take offense since they are likely dead by now.

But it's nice to see the youngsters running searches for the info they need instead of just posting new threads. Most kids these days are so lazy . . . hats off to the OP for taking some initiative.

But it's nice to see the youngsters running searches for the info they need instead of just posting new threads. Most kids these days are so lazy . . . hats off to the OP for taking some initiative.
That's awesome being referred to as a kid.(41 as of yesterday) I guess most of us still feel like kids because we have'nt lost the fascination of playing with and working on bikes..I think there is alot to learn when you do a search like this because you get so much of a broad spectrum of the way things are done. I am still not sure which route to take with these shifters but I sure do have the feedback that will get me started..I have a 6 speed wheel so I will most likely look into changing the wheel or cassette along with it. It's going to be a trial and error educational type of situation.

That's awesome being referred to as a kid.(41 as of yesterday) I guess most of us still feel like kids because we have'nt lost the fascination of playing with and working on bikes..I think there is alot to learn when you do a search like this because you get so much of a broad spectrum of the way things are done. I am still not sure which route to take with these shifters but I sure do have the feedback that will get me started..I have a 6 speed wheel so I will most likely look into changing the wheel or cassette along with it. It's going to be a trial and error educational type of situation.

You can probably replace the 6-sp freewheel (I'd be surprised if that was a cassette) by a 7-sp. Make sure you use shifters that fit with the frewheel/cassette spacing.

Indeed-what a fuss... I converted a 1978 Peugeot which originally had downtube shifters to Dura Ace STI 7700 (9-speed) brifters. For brakes I used Mavic SSCs. For a front derailleur I used a Mavic SSC, For the rear a 7sp Mavic 801 SSC derailleur. The rear runs an SRAM 9sp 11-23 cassette. I replaced the downtube shifter assembly with the gear cable stops needed for STIs. They even fit perfectly over the square holder on the frame on one side and the band-on clamp on the other. People will tell you it won't work because it isn't matched....but the brakes are phenomenal and the shifting crisp and precise. All gears work. All parts from eBay (although new-in-box items) set me back about £150 (say $300) Was it worth it? Well, I always loved the frame and it has been in the family since 1978. I ride 30miles every day on it, so at 300 riding days a year that works out at 0.03 CENTS a mile. But then these will last me another 5 years so divide that by at least 5... And re your question 'Is the frame worth it?' Well, can you buy a decent reliable bike at $300 that will have the advantages of STI and strong brakes? I thought as much. Upgrade it, build it yourself, and learn about your bike. Next time something happens you can fix it yourself and save $$$ and time. And grin like a boy when you complete the task.

I also rebuilt an alloy Cube racer from beginning this century which had 8sp Shimano 105 brifters. I used a 9sp Shimano front derailleur and a long cage 9speed XTR rear on an 8sp SRAM 11-27 cassette and everything ran smooth. So much so I was sad to have to dismantle it after an argument with a motor vehicle.

The bike I am trying to do this on is a mid 80's Ross. I ask myself the same question "is it worth it". Well to me I feel it is because this bike cost me $25 and I really like the feel of it, so I'm not out much if I can do this at a reasonable cost. One thing I do have is the braze-on cable stops already so that is one part I won't have to buy..