The problem with your argument is exemplified by your last sentence, quoted above. Easier said than done. What you're missing is the political impossibility of posting such a sign, and, more importantly, the cultural clime that makes it, and so much more, impossible. Not recognizing these cultural/political issues makes it impossible to appreciate the feedback effect that bike lanes play in creating and maintaining this anti-cycling climate in our culture.
Given your admission of the deeply held belief by motorists and many cyclists that cyclists should stay out of the way of cars, you should see that it would be easier to get them to agree to post a simple sign than to fight against what they perceive an absolute safety necessity: bike lanes.


The problem is the widely held notion that cyclists have a legal/practical obligation to stay out of the way of cars, period. This notion is held deeply, often unconsciously, by the vast majority of our population, including most cyclists. Dislodging this mistaken notion from the deep crevices of our minds must be cycling advocacy's primary goal.
I agree. But if you accept Forester's argument that this mistaken notion is based on a false fear he calls a "phobia," you must also accept that the only practical solution to a phobia is not logical argument (which never works,) but the way to heal a phobia is to face your fear, little by little. So the answer to fear of motor traffic is exposure. Bike lanes do that in a limited sense. After all, many of us would agree that a simple white line is no real protection, but if it helps a cyclist acclimate himself to traffic, perhaps he'll venture out on other roads eventually.

You, who are not only free of the albatross, but might be part of the tiny minority that has never been saddled with it, may have a hard time understanding what it is all about.
How can anyone cycle to work 30 miles round trip in Atlanta, a city dubbed "the worst bicycling city," for many years and not be exposed to every form of motorist ignorance? You assume I've evovled in a protective bubble. I know exactly how hard it is to overcome both my own ignorance of cycling effectively in traffic, and that of the general population. Fortunately, I have found motorists to be remarkably quick in learning to adapt to me.

How can anyone cycle to work 30 miles round trip in Atlanta, a city dubbed "the worst bicycling city," for many years and not be exposed to every form of motorist ignorance?
What makes Atlanta the "worst bicycling city"? What kind of motorist ignorance do you find there? I'm curious because I almost moved there.

I'd rather carry something cool like a parrot. I could teach it to swear at cagers stopped at lights.

I've pointed out this discussion to John Allen, who will hopefully clarify. But something he wrote recently might help shed some light on where he will be coming from:
Further update:

Not suprisingly HH failed to post John Allen's reply to his request since it didn't jibe with HH's cavelier postings about the joy of cycling on very busy roads as long as the cyclist has the right attitude.

Quoted in its entirety with John Allen's permission:
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 10:42:36 -0500 From: "John S. Allen"
Subject: RE: Boston's Storrow Drive... John Allen?

OK guys, now hear it from the horse's mouth and I hope not from the other end of the horse. Storrow Drive is for the most part an express highway from which bicyclists could at least in theory be prohibited and on which very few would choose to ride. Most of it has narrow lanes, high-speed traffic and no shoulders, and access by on- and off- ramps except at one end. Most of it is paralleled by the paths in the Esplanade parklands on the river side and the streets of the Back Bay and Kenmore Square neighborhoods on the other side. See

http://tinyurl.com/89hu3

www.bikexprtcom/massfacil/boston/esplanade.htm

www.bikexprtcom/massfacil/boston/butorvst.htm

However there is one section of Storrow Drive, eastbound between Arlington Street and Cambridge Street, where it provides a direct and convenient route for some eastbound bicycle trips. In theory, this is not part of Storrow Drive -- it is a union and separation lane called Mugar Way -- but in practice it is a lane of Storrow Drive, though one with relatively light and slow traffic I have ridden it. The parallel Charles Street, one block inshore from the Charles River, is one-way westbound. Paul Schimek has discussed Mugar Way on the Massbike e-mail list:

http://list.massbike.org/archive/200307/0032.html

Storrow Drive also provides a useful and reasonably attractive route eastbound between Charles Circle and Leverett Circle, providing access to Fruit Street, Blossom Street and some parts of Massachusetts General Hospital, and I have ridden here too.

Storrow Drive is to be distinguished from Soldier's Field Road, its continuation upstream along the Charles, which has abutters and some at-grade intersections, and at the western end of which there are wide shoulders. Its entire length is also paralleled by paths in the riverfront park, and its western end is much more generally useful and attractive for bicycling:

www.bikexprtcom/massfacil/boston/rvstwsta.htm

www.bikexprtcom/massfacil/boston/western.htm

I was once cited by a police officer for riding on Soldier's Field Road, but overturned the citation in court:

http://www.bikexprt.com/witness/captions.htm#allen

Feel free to pass along to the originating discussion, in which I am not a participant.

This is an example of a statement made only by someone who most probably has shed the albatross of which I'm speaking.



I did not say, "no heavy traffic". I said, "in the absence of specific arguably threatening situations". Do you believe that "absence of specific arguably threatening situations" and "heavy traffic" are mutually exclusive? If so, that would be an example of albatross-ladden thinking...

Hey, you're right, it doesn't have to be heavy traffic... just one jerk right on your tail... and you will indeed feel "instant relief" the moment you can pull to the right and out of their path... BL or WOL or sidestreet or whatever.

But riding along and suddenly feeling "relief" by simply moving into a BL... nah.

The albatross is what causes the anxiety, not the SUV.

That's why those of us who have shed the albatross do not experience the anxiety of those who do carry the albatross when followed by the same SUV in the same narrow lane.

It might seem reasonable to "fear" a "tailgating" SUV, but when you really believe, deep down, that you have no obligation to get out of its way in a narrow lane where it is unreasonable to do so, there is no fear.

Lose the fear....
Lose the sense of obligation to get out of the way of cars....
Lose the albatross...
Lose the desire for bike lanes.
You are so right about this, and well said. An NOL is not frightening to me because I really do believe that I have a right to be there. The basic design of this street takes the onus away from me. I can't share so I don't have to. and my experience as a cager informs me that there is no wy that somebody is going to hit me from behind if I am safe and visible in the middle of the lane. My stress level there is a 1 or 2. My stress level in a bike lane is 3. My level in a single narrow lane is a 4. My stress level when I watch my freind ride the wrong way or shoot off the sidewalk into the street is at least a 10.

Ahh...Life is so simple in these little bitty lanes. :)

The reason I didn't post John Allen's response myself is because I haven't been over to that list since I posted my query. But thanks for reminding me.

In responding to a related post, John Allen also wrote:


Last I know there were no signs prohibiting bicycles, and that's good because there are a couple of sections of the Drive which are, as I said, useful and reasonable bicycle routes. If Ken O'Brien wants to come ride the full length of the Drive, rather than the parallel streets or paths, let him come down from his Bicycle Icicle tower in Maine and be our guest here in Massachusetts.

In spite of what Ken says, there are destinations other than in the park that the path accesses better than alternate routes. It provides a shorter connection between, for example, Cambridge Street and Charles Street, and in spite of somewhat lower travel speed, with no traffic signals, a shorter travel time than is available on streets -- except, of course for the Drive itself if you would choose to ride on it, and I don't except as I stated earlier.
I'm surprised that this is his position.
At any rate, I'll have to take his word on Storrow Road being unacceptable to ride on, even for a vehicular cyclist, though there is at least one other member of this list who has challenged this point.

My [stress] level in a single narrow lane is a 4.
Mine is much higher. I even chickened out of riding my trike in Death Valley because of it. Nobody was looking at the road because the scenery is too amazing, and they seemed to think passing was something you could do even if on-coming traffic was coming. And why not? Plenty of soft sand to ride in on the shoulder.

I guess a lot of you have more faith that they're paying attention and patient enough to wait. I haven't seen enough evidence to suggest either of these two are the norm among motorists.

Uh, that "albatross" might have something to do with cycling in a narrow lane while being tailgated by an SUV, whereas the BL allows cycling outside of where the motor vehicles are, thus not being tailgated by an SUV...

So much for your "test."

Seriously, I don't see wanting to stay out of the way of a speeding ton of metal, if possible, as an albatross, it seems more like plain ole common sense. I have no clue why we ever cluttered our nice streets with sidewalks, we should all just be able to share the road and walk in a vehicular manner. :p

An NOL is not frightening to me because I really do believe that I have a right to be there. ...My stress level there is a 1 or 2. ... My level in a single narrow lane is a 4.
I'm not sure I understand the distinction between riding in a NOL and riding in a single narrow lane, and why the stress levels are different.

When you say NOL, do you mean that NOL implies the existence of at least one more same-direction lane? To me, outer is outer, whether there are inner lanes or not, so I don't make that distinction. Anyway, are you saying the existence of another same-direction lane, that faster traffic can use to pass you, reduces the stress that you have when there is no other same-direction lane? Is that what you mean by a single narrow lane?

If so, are you assuming a solid double-yellow dividing stripe? Otherwise, what's to prevent them from using the oncoming traffic lane to pass you? What's the difference between using that verses another same direction lane, unless you're also assuming so much oncoming traffic in the single narrow lane case that passing in the oncoming lane is not an option?

Please clarify. Thanks!

Seriously, I don't see wanting to stay out of the way of a speeding ton of metal, if possible, as an albatross, it seems more like plain ole common sense. I have no clue why we ever cluttered our nice streets with sidewalks, we should all just be able to share the road and walk in a vehicular manner. :p
Choosing to get out of the way of faster traffic as a matter of courtesy is one thing, but feeling stressed when one is unable to do so (for whatever legitimate reason) out of a sense of obligation to get out their way is the albatross I'm talking about, a level of stress that is relieved in the "refuge" of a bike lane.

In responding to a related post, John Allen also wrote:
I'm surprised that this is his position.
At any rate, I'll have to take his word on Storrow Road being unacceptable to ride on, even for a vehicular cyclist, though there is at least one other member of this list who has challenged this point.
How generous of you -You deign to take the word of a person with direct and personal knowledge of the cycling and traffic situation in an area where you have none? Would his word be any good at all if it differed from your own, if he wasn't one of the supreme advocates of VC ecucation and John Forester acolyte #1.

I've lost count at how many posters HH has declared are misinformed/unaware about their own cycling environment because their viewpoint differs from HH's rosy colored view of cycling in traffic.

Choosing to get out of the way of faster traffic as a matter of courtesy is one thing, but feeling stressed when one is unable to do so (for whatever legitimate reason) out of a sense of obligation to get out their way is the albatross I'm talking about, a level of stress that is relieved in the "refuge" of a bike lane.

The stress is not limited to being on a bicycle. I feel a sense of obligation whenever I am backing up traffic behind me and feel stress whenever some idiot in a hurry is riding my tail...in a car, truck, SUV, motorcycle, bicycle or even walking down the aisle in a store or mall. You've already abused lima beans, now you are into birds, what's next?

Forever.

The stress is not limited to being on a bicycle. I feel a sense of obligation whenever I am backing up traffic behind me and feel stress whenever some idiot in a hurry is riding my tail...in a car, truck, SUV, motorcycle, bicycle or even walking down the aisle in a store or mall.
Indeed. The occasional renter of a moving van might feel stressed at slowing traffic while driving his slow vehicle, because he is not used to doing it, but a commercial driver of a slow vehicle (bus, moving van, tractor, etc.) who is accustomed to doing so is probably not.

It's the same with cyclists, except that few cyclists give themselves the chance to getting accustomed to slowing down faster traffic because they're always getting out of the way.

I've recently slowed down my own driving (my wife has commented on it). It used to bug me to go so slow, now it doesn't.

You get used to it, and the albatross slides right off. Talk about a sense of relief!

How generous of you -You deign to take the word of a person with direct and personal knowledge of the cycling and traffic situation in an area where you have none? Would his word be any good at all if it differed from your own, if he wasn't one of the supreme advocates of VC ecucation and John Forester acolyte #1.

I've lost count at how many posters HH has declared are misinformed/unaware about their own cycling environment because their viewpoint differs from HH's rosy colored view of cycling in traffic.
You're a genius.

Indeed. The occasional renter of a moving van might feel stressed at slowing traffic while driving his slow vehicle, because he is not used to doing it, but a commercial driver of a slow vehicle (bus, moving van, tractor, etc.) who is accustomed to doing so is probably not.

It's the same with cyclists, except that few cyclists give themselves the chance to getting accustomed to slowing down faster traffic because they're always getting out of the way.

I've recently slowed down my own driving (my wife has commented on it). It used to bug me to go so slow, now it doesn't.

You get used to it, and the albatross slides right off. Talk about a sense of relief!

You have to have an albatross to have it slide off...congrats on getting rid of yours, mine has nothing to do with cycling or driving.

I'd like an albatross backpack. When traffic gets tough, just spread its wings and catch some air.

I'd like an albatross backpack. When traffic gets tough, just spread its wings and catch some air.

Get the lima bean colored one. ;)

ILTB, I tried your link and found I could not display the page because of a missing dot between "bikexprt" and "com." This link will work:

http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/boston/esplanade.htm

A summary excerpt:

"All in all, the path has improved over the years, yet many problems remain. Some are inherent in the traffic mix and others result from existing structures which would be very difficult and expensive to change. But other problems have resulted from a continuing failure to apply good design standards even when to do so would not have increased costs."

Your second link also would not work. This one will work:

http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/boston/butorvst.htm

An excerpt from John Allen's opening comments:

"...This section of path is one of the most seriously compromised in terms of safety, especially at its western end when it is crammed in between a retaining wall and an exit ramp from Storrow Drive. The photos here will illustrate some of the problems, as well as a major opportunity to provide a useful connection at a relatively low construction cost."

ILTB, I tried your link and found I could not display the page because of a missing dot between "bikexprt" and "com." This link will work:
http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/boston/esplanade.htm
Your second link also would not work. This one will work:
http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/boston/butorvst.htm

Thanks for posting working URL's.

I cut and pasted directly from the original email which contained John Allen's typos of his own web site URL.

The point is that most cyclists (actually practically all) have enough sense to recognize when dogma does not overcome reality.

An interesting sidenote is that Mr. Allen's post on the other other discussion list has raised the ire of a few HH-types on that list who are upset that John Allen's acknowlegment of cyclists' limits means he has joined with the enemies of the extreme VC ideologues.

I hold up traffic every single day when commuting to work on my bike or trike. And I still don't like it.

You might not like it, but do you dislike it? If so, why?

You might not like it, but do you dislike it? If so, why?

Actually I get a certain perverse pleasure in "exercising my rights..." I don't mind holding up traffic and making motorists drive the speed limit or less... although their occasional honking and yelling do bother me. But I also love catching those passing motorists and sitting behind them at lights while I stretch... the stretching is innocent, but the movement makes the motorist check their mirrors and see that "damn cyclist that they just passed... "

So for me, the real reason to use the BL is simply because there is less traffic in that particular lane.

Now when motor traffic is about 45MPH and above, then I like Bike Lanes simply because I am moving slow and the vehicles "swooping around" me just do not make me comfortable... its a mass and speed thing. Same feeling I used to get when driving an old VW bus on the freeways at about 45MPH.

The reason I don't like riding in NOL on multilane roads is not at all because of holding up traffic. It is partly because of the tailgaiting (covered already in this thread) and a lot because of the jockying for position that the cars in multiple lanes do. They are agressive with each other and not really considering a cyclist in their midst. I covered this is my 'The view from behind is disconcerting' thread a month or so ago.

Al

I hold up traffic every single day when commuting to work on my bike or trike. And I still don't like it.
Let's face it: holding up traffic, even though sometimes a necessity, does not come naturally. Even while driving it takes self-control not to submit to the pressure of aggressive drivers, and drivers who can negotiate effectively with aggressive drivers are behaving in the most intelligent fashion (i.e. - yielding right-of-way to avoid a collision, even if the right-of-way was yours.) Also, purely from a conscientious viewpoint, one wouldn't want to be held up by someone else unnecessarily, so do unto others likewise.

I don't hold up traffic because I enjoy it. I hold up traffic because I have to, and only when I have to.

Can we at least say "holding up other traffic"? It's a nitpicky point, but when we're cycling on streets and roads, we are part of traffic, with the same rights and responsibilities as other traffic. In my book, that means safety first
courtesy second

So don't hold anyone else up unnecessarily, but more important, don't compromise your own safety because of someone else's momentary impatience.

Can we at least say "holding up other traffic"? It's a nitpicky point, but when we're cycling on streets and roads, we are part of traffic, with the same rights and responsibilities as other traffic. In my book, that means safety first
courtesy second

So don't hold anyone else up unnecessarily, but more important, don't compromise your own safety because of someone else's momentary impatience.
+1

It's a subtle but very significant point. To be comfortable in traffic, you really have to see yourself as part of it, rather than as an outsider. The statement "I'm holding up traffic" implies seeing oneself as an outsider, not an integrated participant.

+1

It's a subtle but very significant point. To be comfortable in traffic, you really have to see yourself as part of it, rather than as an outsider. The statement "I'm holding up traffic" implies seeing oneself as an outsider, not an integrated participant.

No, it implies that my fat butt is moving slower than the traffic piling up behind me who have no way to safely pass, nothing more, nothing less. If it has other implications in your mind, fine, but don't assume everyone else thinks like you do.

You might not like it, but do you dislike it? If so, why?
I do not like it. I dislike it. Whatever.

I don't like it because they follow me quite closely. They keep trying to peek around the curves to see if they can pass me yet. I don't like hearing the engine, hearing them put on the gas, then take foot off the gas, put on the gas, take foot off the gas over and over. I don't even like it when my boyfriend is right behind me trying to keep me safe from the people behind him! He's back there and he's not even impatient about it and I still don't like it. I don't want to be the little clown bike leading the big parade.

I do not like it. I dislike it. Whatever.

I don't like it because they follow me quite closely. They keep trying to peek around the curves to see if they can pass me yet. I don't like hearing the engine, hearing them put on the gas, then take foot off the gas, put on the gas, take foot off the gas over and over. I don't even like it when my boyfriend is right behind me trying to keep me safe from the people behind him! He's back there and he's not even impatient about it and I still don't like it. I don't want to be the little clown bike leading the big parade.
No reasonable person enjoys being tailgated by drivers jockying for passing position. I hear you loud and clear.

But you should be happy to be followed by your boyfriend. How close does he get? Does he honk at you a lot? ;)

al

No, it implies that my fat butt is moving slower than the traffic piling up behind me who have no way to safely pass, nothing more, nothing less. If it has other implications in your mind, fine, but don't assume everyone else thinks like you do.
Of course not everyone else thinks like me. There are those who don't realize the implication is there, for example.

No, it implies that my fat butt is moving slower than the traffic piling up behind me who have no way to safely pass, nothing more, nothing less. If it has other implications in your mind, fine, but don't assume everyone else thinks like you do.
Most drivers would be surprised to know how often cars slow me down. If car traffic is going more slowly than bicycles could, should the cars get off the road?

Most drivers would be surprised to know how often cars slow me down. If car traffic is going more slowly than bicycles could, should the cars get off the road?

I love it... can we yell "Get on the Sidewalk" to those guys?

On my evening commute there is one area that generally takes about 1/2 hour for motorist to climb this mile long hill... I am always greatful for the bike lane that allows me to (even at 8MPH) ride right past this congestion.

But really you bring up a good question... I know some folks advocate simply waiting in traffic behind these vehicles... personally, I feel that this is where taking the advantage of being on a bike makes sense.

I do not like it. I dislike it. Whatever.

I don't like it because they follow me quite closely. They keep trying to peek around the curves to see if they can pass me yet. I don't like hearing the engine, hearing them put on the gas, then take foot off the gas, put on the gas, take foot off the gas over and over. I don't even like it when my boyfriend is right behind me trying to keep me safe from the people behind him! He's back there and he's not even impatient about it and I still don't like it. I don't want to be the little clown bike leading the big parade.
If they are too close, do you issue the slow/stop signal with your left arm? If so, do they respond by backing off, or not?

Why do you choose to be bothered when they peek around the curves?
Why do you choose to be bothered by the sound of the engine?

You realize these are your choices, do you not?

I guess part of shedding the albatross is choosing not to be bothered by these inconsequential factors of cycling in traffic.

If they are too close, do you issue the slow/stop signal with your left arm? If so, do they respond by backing off, or not?

Why do you choose to be bothered when they peek around the curves?
Why do you choose to be bothered by the sound of the engine?

You realize these are your choices, do you not?

I guess part of shedding the albatross is choosing not to be bothered by these inconsequential factors of cycling in traffic.
And I suppose I could choose not to be bothered by loud music late at night too.

No reasonable person enjoys being tailgated by drivers jockying for passing position. I hear you loud and clear.

But you should be happy to be followed by your boyfriend. How close does he get? Does he honk at you a lot? ;)

al
I don't like him following me. It seems kind of paternalistic and overly protective. But it is sweet.

I guess part of shedding the albatross is choosing not to be bothered by these inconsequential factors of cycling in traffic.
There are different levels of bothered
1. Bothered as you feel your level of safety is diminished. That is a real issue worth discussing.
2. Bothered because you don't like noise or being followed. Thats a (reasonable) personal problem.
3. Bothered on a broader sense because you can't believe you live in a world with so many asswipes. Thats life.

Last time I gave the slow down signal (driver put front bumper about 4ft from my rear wheel at 23mph) the driver continued to honk and swerve side to side after they realized they got an acknowledgement of their previous honking.

Al

I don't want to be the little clown bike leading the big parade.

This reminds me of an incident that occured to me many many years ago.

I was leaving a friends house in an area I really wasn't all that familiar with. Thought I could take a shortcut and found a road that appeared to head in the right direction. It was a quiet narrow road, so it seemed to be "just the thing," I basically took the lane as one might do on any quiet residential street...

I rode down this road to the end and discovered that it deadended at the entrance to a cemetary... so I pulled a U turn and headed back... only to realize I had just lead a funeral procession all the way down the road.

The close following and agressive lane jocking bothers me because I know some of these drivers are pushing their limits of perception and reactions and one mistake could knock me off my bike in 45mph traffic.

Please don't tell me my concern is unwarranted by citing data showing that rear end collisions are the rarest form of auto-cyclist accident. As ILTB will point out, how many cyclist ride of the sidewalk into a x-walk every day vs. ride in the middle of the lane in 45mph traffic?

Al

The close following and agressive lane jocking bothers me because I know some of these drivers are pushing their limits of perception and reactions and one mistake could knock me off my bike in 45mph traffic.
Doesn't sound to me like you're working very hard to 'shed the albatross' :lol:

;)

Al, your situation could very well be fairly unique. The discussion here is much more general, in general are you bothered by this type of behavior?

The discussion here is much more general, in general are you bothered by this type of behavior?
which behavior?

If you mean being followed at a reasonable distance by a driver who is not acting agressively toward me, then no I am not in the slighest bothered.

Al

Al, your situation could very well be fairly unique. The discussion here is much more general, in general are you bothered by this type of behavior?

HH did it ever occur to you that all our situations are unique?

HH did it ever occur to you that all our situations are unique?
Thank you. Genec is right, all situation are unique.

But I wanted to comment (I do this comment every few months or so) that riding in phx-metro can most often be a very pleasurable experience, it all depends on the routes ones uses and the day of the week and time of the day. I'd bet that 90% of my commute would make other commuters envious of the good pavement, straight roads, warm weather and generally courteous drivers. 100% of my recreational riding here (starting from home on weekends) has been fanstastic with no driver/traffic issues. But it is just these few relatively short 'pinch points' unique to my home and work location that are unavoidable if commuting.

Al

Sigh. Of course all situations are ultimately unique. But, in general, either you're comfortable with being in the way of faster traffic behind, or you're not. Your response to that could very well be affirmative, even though you would understandably not be comfortable with someone following at 23 mph acting aggressively 4 feet behind you. Who would?

That's what I meant by saying Al's situation could very well be unique.

If you mean being followed at a reasonable distance by a driver who is not acting agressively toward me, then no I am not in the slighest bothered.

Yes, that's what I mean.

Diane, Gene, others... how about you? Are you bothered, even in the slightest, when you are being followed at a reasonable distance by a driver who is not acting aggressively toward you, though you are clearly in his way of going faster?

... even though you would understandably not be comfortable with someone following at 23 mph acting aggressively 4 feet behind you. Who would?

That's what I meant by saying Al's situation could very well be unique.
But I would also be concerned if I was riding uphill on a 'bent at 10mph and drivers were accelerating/decelerating and swerving left/right looking for an opportunity to squeeze by and sometimes make risky choices in choosing when to zip by.

Al

But I would also be concerned if I was riding uphill on a 'bent at 10mph and drivers were accelerating/decelerating and swerving left/right looking for an opportunity to squeeze by and sometimes make risky choices in choosing when to zip by.

Al
Try 5 mph. Yep, I'm that slow on that hill.