Yes, that's what I mean.

Diane, Gene, others... how about you? Are you bothered, even in the slightest, when you are being followed at a reasonable distance by a driver who is not acting aggressively toward you, though you are clearly in his way of going faster?
Yeah because I know the driver is watching/looking at me. Maybe I'm paranoid but I really just want to get on with my day in peaceful anonymity. Maybe that's strange. I don't know. I'd feel similarly if I were (as a pedestrian) to use a pedestrian button at one of those intersections where the ped button stops all directions of traffic and I was the only one crossing the street.

Yes, that's what I mean.

Diane, Gene, others... how about you? Are you bothered, even in the slightest, when you are being followed at a reasonable distance by a driver who is not acting aggressively toward you, though you are clearly in his way of going faster?

No. Do it all the time. Doesn't bother me in the least.

Only very close, noisy, aggressive motorists bother me.

"Noisy" simply because I am sensitive to it... It's who I am... I am aware of subtle sounds around me all the time... and anything going beyond subtle can startle me.

"Very close" is a safety issue... and I think we have covered it... Anyone that is close enough to me to not have room to respond if I do something stupid is too close. (in driver's ed it was one car length per 10MPH... I can live with that)

"Aggressive" fits in the same catagory... safety. Drivers that are pushing the limits of their vehicles or the conditions, may not in fact really know those limits... I don't want to be in their way, when and if they make a mistake.

Yeah because I know the driver is watching/looking at me. Maybe I'm paranoid but I really just want to get on with my day in peaceful anonymity. Maybe that's strange. I don't know. I'd feel similarly if I were (as a pedestrian) to use a pedestrian button at one of those intersections where the ped button stops all directions of traffic and I was the only one crossing the street.
Thanks for your honesty. And no offense, but this desire to travel in "peaceful anonymity" is quite the albatross to carry while trying to negotiate with other traffic.

Thanks for your honesty. And no offense, but this desire to travel in "peaceful anonymity" is quite the albatross to carry while trying to negotiate with other traffic.

It may be... but oddly enough, many humans seek just that... it's often called "a quiet ride in the country." And it is done by cyclists, motorists and motorcyclists, horseback riders... and so on.

It is an ideal situation that is usually not obtainable in city traffic... however, quite often there are small places along a route that might offer some solace... such as along a park, or perhaps on an isolated road.

What Diane seeks is not really so foreign, especially when you consider that with the windows rolled up, that is exactly what most motorists are experiencing... Quiet Anonymity.

Think about it.

Not only what gene says, but you guys are, well, guys. Think about it.

Oh, believe me, I seek "peaceful anonymity" too. But there is a time and a place for everything. Seeking "peaceful anonymity" while riding in traffic is not the time or the place, and becomes an albatross if you do.

To put it in these terms, one of the problems with bike lanes is the appeal of their false promise of "peaceful anonymity". It's achieving this state of blissful but false anonymity that can make cyclists more vulnerable to collision.

How's that for thinking about it?

Oh, believe me, I seek "peaceful anonymity" too. But there is a time and a place for everything. Seeking "peaceful anonymity" while riding in traffic is not the time or the place, and becomes an albatross if you do.

To put it in these terms, one of the problems with bike lanes is the appeal of their false promise of "peaceful anonymity". It's achieving this state of blissful but false anonymity that can make cyclists more vulnerable to collision.

How's that for thinking about it?

OK what do you have to say for the motorists out there that are seeking "peaceful anonymity" and are not aware of their immediate environment? Those zoned out drivers chatting on their cell phones, while listening to Bach on their 8 speaker sound systems... huh... what cyclist.

OK what do you have to say for the motorists out there that are seeking "peaceful anonymity" and are not aware of their immediate environment? Those zoned out drivers chatting on their cell phones, while listening to Bach on their 8 speaker sound systems... huh... what cyclist.
We just talked about that. I expect it, and am prepared for it. Aren't you?

We just talked about that. I expect it, and am prepared for it. Aren't you?

Uh, this is the guy that didn't to respond to your slow down hand signal and is closing on you quickly...

You are hemmed in by a bridge railing on the right and a steady stream of fast cars on the left and right behind you is mr "peaceful anonymity" who just moved into your lane from the left as it appeared quite empty... he continues to accelerate as he listens intently to his biggest client complain about the recent action in the stock market... He looks down to turn down the 8 speaker sound system so he can hear the client better...

How prepared are you?

You guys just don't get it. It's not simply "peaceful anonymity". But you guys are guys so you'll never get it.

Look, I don't like walking down a street through a group of 20-ish men standing around doing nothing either. But once when my hair was buzz-cut and I had on a big jacket I walked through a group of 20-ish men standing around doing nothing and I actually felt a sort of "peaceful anonymity" I don't normally feel. Not one of them looked at me. Not for a second. It was an incredible feeling. Normally they'd do something threatening, make a comment, stare, take notice, size me up, something.

It's not that I think anybody is leering at me when I'm holding up traffic chugging up a steep hill at 5 mph. But really I'd rather not be taken notice of at all. I'd really rather everybody just be on their way and leave me be to go about my business. Instead, I'm stuck holding up all these bozos who are always in a big huge hurry. The self-important BMW SUV drivers, the stinkin' Tree Trimmers and Cement trucks with their nasty diesel fumes, and yes my over-protective boyfriend.

It's not fear. It's just annoying. I don't particularly like annoying things. And yet, as I said, I ride up this gawdawful hill every damn day. I'm not prevented from going up the hill. It's just not quite as nice as it would be if there was more room in the lane for everybody.

Yes, Gene, I am prepared. I am prepared to die, in the unlikely event something like that would ever happen to me.

Diane, oh we get it. We just don't buy your story. We know you actually love to be noticed and whistled at. We know you live for that kind of pure physical animalistic attention. Oh, we get it. ;-)

Try 5 mph. Yep, I'm that slow on that hill.
Who said I was referencing you? ;)

As to the discomfort wtih being followed, I can't totally relate, but can try and understand. It would get more concerning if there were opportunities to pass and the (male) driver didn't take them. This happens, often not because they are watching, but because quite a few driver miss those opportunities to pass because they are focused on the 'problem' (slow vehicle ahead causing them delay) instead of the 'solution' (a gap in the traffic ahead in the opposing lane or in the adjacent lane behind) I see these missed opportunities for drivers to pass all the time, sometimes even from honking ones.

As to relating to the being followed. An different example I can think of is hill climbs. I always give the leaders a 30sec or so head start, that way I don't feel like they are watching me to pick me off and instead I can catch them instead. This feeling goes beyond the 'race' strategy of being a rabbit or not, but also delves into not liking the pack watching me, a more relaxing way to go up. I also dont' like being the sole ped crossing the street.

Al

Most drivers would be surprised to know how often cars slow me down. If car traffic is going more slowly than bicycles could, should the cars get off the road?

It would make rush hour much nicer, wouldn't it?

The statement "I'm holding up traffic" implies seeing oneself as an outsider, not an integrated participant.
We cyclists are the only ones who attach an implied inferiority complex to the phrase, "holding up traffic." But I don't have that inferiority complex.

No, I don't move over to "help" motorists pass. That's their job, and they are best suited to know when and where to make the move to pass, not me, so I hold my line. In general, I don't cower to the right, but if I feel I need to, I'll move left closer to the center of the lane.

In fact, I spend a great deal of time in the center of the lane, even when I'm honked at. I don't feel sorry for impatient drivers who don't know how to ride a bike.

I merely suggested saying "holding up other traffic" as opposed to "holding up traffic." I'm surprised this is at all controversial. Does anyone here not consider himself/herself to be part of traffic, when riding a bicycle on a street or road?

Diane, oh we get it. We just don't buy your story. We know you actually love to be noticed and whistled at. We know you live for that kind of pure physical animalistic attention. Oh, we get it. ;-)
This comment isn't even worthy of a response, but I fear that if I don't make one I will lose face. That's all I will say about it.

Diane, oh we get it. We just don't buy your story. We know you actually love to be noticed and whistled at. We know you live for that kind of pure physical animalistic attention. Oh, we get it. ;-)
This comment isn't even worthy of a response, but I fear that if I don't make one I will lose face. That's all I will say about it.

He's just sore he's not getting whistled at.

This comment isn't even worthy of a response, but I fear that if I don't make one I will lose face. That's all I will say about it.
I made a dumb joke... I certainly didn't expect a response. No face loss either way.

Does anyone here not consider himself/herself to be part of traffic, when riding a bicycle on a street or road?
I agree with you, I am traffic.

Does anyone here not consider himself/herself to be part of traffic, when riding a bicycle on a street or road?
I agree with you, I am traffic.
Not only am I traffic, but at the same time I am the solution to the problem of too much traffic.

Diane, oh we get it. We just don't buy your story. We know you actually love to be noticed and whistled at. We know you live for that kind of pure physical animalistic attention. Oh, we get it. ;-)With this comment you have proved Diane's point.

I love the smilie at the end.


I made a dumb joke... I certainly didn't expect a response. No face loss either way.You crack me up. Once again you have dismissed someone's argument by making an insensitive comment. You discredit yourself.

I don't buy your story that you just made a dumb joke.

And you have the gall to lecture others:


Reason and logic, expressed politely and respectfully, are the currency of productive debate. ThanksComing from you that is a gigantic load of bull. Maybe you should take your own advice and try to express your arguments politely and respectfully.

Coming from you that is a gigantic load of bull.
JRA, you, Patc, ILTB, and perhaps a few others, just have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to interpreting my posts. You're always going to look for a negative angle, no matter what I say. You clearly judge not the content of a post, but the writer of the content, based on your opinion of that person, however limited and misguided it may be.

Diane, you're right. As a man, I can only imagine, and poorly at that, as to exactly what you're experiencing. The best I can do, I suppose, is put on my Lycra and ride through Hillcrest, the gay district of San Diego. Actually, our club did just that for a charity ride last month (the route happened to go through Hillcrest), and we were whistled at and the "reactions" were commented on within the group. The attention we got here was, uh, different. But I know that experience gives me but a hint of what you must endure as a single female cyclist in a world riddled with leering insensitive blokes, and much worse.

So how that affects your desire to achieve "peaceful anonymity" I can respect, and do (despite my dumb joke), but of course am simply unable to fully appreciate, as you pointed out.

As a man, I can only imagine, and poorly at that, as to exactly what you're experiencing. The best I can do, I suppose, is put on my Lycra and ride through Hillcrest, the gay district of San Diego. Actually, our club did just that for a charity ride last month (the route happened to go through Hillcrest), and we were whistled at and the "reactions" were commented on within the group. The attention we got here was, uh, different.
The difference between you riding through Hillcrest and me riding through life is that your experience lacked the element of violence.

I know. That's what I meant by, "and much worse".

JRA, you, Patc, ILTB, and perhaps a few others, just have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to interpreting my posts. You're always going to look for a negative angle, no matter what I say. You clearly judge not the content of a post, but the writer of the content, based on your opinion of that person, however limited and misguided it may be.

If we do, and I am not agreeing that we do, you brought it on yourself. If it bothers you so much feel free to leave, we certainly didn't miss your negative contributions to the forum during the holidays.

I am traffic.

:beer:

JRA, you, Patc, ILTB, and perhaps a few others, just have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to interpreting my posts. You're always going to look for a negative angle, no matter what I say. You clearly judge not the content of a post, but the writer of the content, based on your opinion of that person, however limited and misguided it may be.

Diane, you're right. As a man, I can only imagine, and poorly at that, as to exactly what you're experiencing. The best I can do, I suppose, is put on my Lycra and ride through Hillcrest, the gay district of San Diego. Actually, our club did just that for a charity ride last month (the route happened to go through Hillcrest), and we were whistled at and the "reactions" were commented on within the group. The attention we got here was, uh, different. But I know that experience gives me but a hint of what you must endure as a single female cyclist in a world riddled with leering insensitive blokes, and much worse.

So how that affects your desire to achieve "peaceful anonymity" I can respect, and do (despite my dumb joke), but of course am simply unable to fully appreciate, as you pointed out.

Dude, you gotta learn to just shut up sometimes, rather than just digging deeper into the dawghouse. Take it from someone who has made a living of only opening his mouth to change feet.

Diane, I hope you've never found my lighthearted attempts to compliment or joke with you offensive...sometimes I just assume everyone knows I am the Klass Klown and forget that I am just another unknown mutt behind a keyboard. :)

Not only am I traffic, but at the same time I am the solution to the problem of too much traffic.
:beer:

Diane, I hope you've never found my lighthearted attempts to compliment or joke with you offensive...sometimes I just assume everyone knows I am the Klass Klown and forget that I am just another unknown mutt behind a keyboard. :)
I haven't found you offensive. I'm not easily offended anyway. Even with a Women's Studies degree I'm not hard core at all.

Can't quite put a finger on why HH's comment was offensive and other comments were not. Perhaps it's the combination of it being personal and me having a real picture for an avatar. (I just really want people to see my trike, not so much me. My trike is so cool!)

I haven't found you offensive. I'm not easily offended anyway. Even with a Women's Studies degree I'm not hard core at all.

Can't quite put a finger on why HH's comment was offensive and other comments were not. Perhaps it's the combination of it being personal and me having a real picture for an avatar. (I just really want people to see my trike, not so much me. My trike is so cool!)

I wasn't worried about you being a woman, some people just don't take things as one intends, especially in writing from a pretty-much stranger - no tone, no facial expressions, no body language, no history or familiararity.

That is a cool trike, but how do you expect anyone to notice it when you're sitting in it? See, I can't help it! Just ask my GF, I am an incurable wannabe smoothie - good thing that's one of the things she loves about me. ;)

Can't quite put a finger on why HH's comment was offensive and other comments were not. Perhaps it's the combination of it being personal and me having a real picture for an avatar. (I just really want people to see my trike, not so much me. My trike is so cool!)

If you mean post 211, I can hazard a guess. It was the same patronizing wording used against women for decades to excuse all sorts of sexual harassment. "Jokes" stop being funny when they become too real, and make light of actual harm.