So, I posted in the "today I wore..." thread some questions regarding how to improve my layers to warm up.

So heres what we have so far....

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Fleece balaclava
EMS techwick t-shirt, EMS Rumney Sweater, PI Barrier Jacket
PI Shorts, PI Amfib Tights, alpaca wool socks, mtb shoes

Temp was 35, and overcast.

A few weeks ago I went for a ride wearing a generic 50/50 polypro/cotton Thermal shirt, a long sleeve cotton T-shirt, a cheap department store fleece jacket with an EMS Gust jacket (windbreaker). Although I wasn't warm or hot, I was cool to comfortable. But, the windbreaker didn't breathe, and I ended up "clammy" and then cold.

So this time, I wore one of my "wicking" shirts as well as the "dri-release" sweater, got rid of the cotton, and wore what I thought was ample insulation with the POI jacket. But, I was cold. So I added a mountain hardware transition vest, and although I warmed up some, I still considered myself cold. Now to top it off, I was also wet, to the point that some paper money in the pocket of the sweater was damp.

My face and legs were plenty warm. I wouldn't change anything there.

But what can I do about the cold and damp feeling? Could I have mistaken cold for wet and cold. Should I add more insulation? If so, a heavier vest or heavier jacket? I was sweating as evidenced by the wet money. Would merino wool against the skin help make me feel warm?

So many different technologies and layers its hard to decide what to do.

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and a reply from chipcom;

Here's what works well for me between 30-45F

Poly or wool base layer
Wool sweater
J&G Wind Jacket, which is breathable and water resistant...using the front zipper and pit zips to regulate.

When colder I may add a fleece or cotton/poly sweatshirt under the jacket.
Wool will keep you both warmer and dryer...and even if you do get wet, you'll feel warm.

So now my questions are;

When you say poly or wool base layer, is it considered a thermal base layer, or is it lightweight?

What weight is the wool sweater. I've looked at the Icebreaker rock zip sweater or shirt (not sure what its classified as) is your sweater heavier than that?

Tonight I tried adding a thermal long sleeve shirt under the sweater and since the jacket is form fitting, its about all I would be able to add, nothing any heavier. btw, I just tried it for fit, no riding...


Thanks - Jon

First of all, ditch the cotton shirt. There should be no cotton in your winter arsenal whatsoever. Secondly, you mention wearing fleece. Fleece can mean a lot of things but generally for me, at 35 F it means that i don't wear it. Simply too hot.

I wear a lightweight balaclava at that temp. It is about the thickness of two pairs of panty hose with a very, very light thermal lining. I have a thicker balaclava for colder weather but generally find it too hot for anything over 0 F. I also wear a fleece ear band over the balaclava when temps dip much under 32 F.

I don't get too caught up in the whole concept of breathing jackets. Jackets don't really breathe. In fact they don't have lungs. :) Seriously breathing, just means that air can move through the jacket. But the fact is that if you are generating a lot of heat, NOTHING will "breathe" well enough to get rid of the heat. So the key is to NOT generate too much heat underneath that you can't get rid of it.

Fleecewear, will generate a lot of heat. An alternative at 35 F would be to wear a windbreaker with something about the weight of a traditional long underwear shirt underneath. The shirt needs to be a wicking material not cotton. If you look at Performance Bike website, you would be looking at one of the shirts listed for "cool" weather, not "cold."

I just got this jersey (http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=19551&subcategory_ID=1111) for xmas and it is too hot to wear over freezing. In fact I wore it with a very lightweight Pearl Izumi Zephyr jacket at 30 F and was still basically too hot. I was ok with the jacket unzipped but prefer not to have to do that.

So now my questions are;

When you say poly or wool base layer, is it considered a thermal base layer, or is it lightweight?

What weight is the wool sweater. I've looked at the Icebreaker rock zip sweater or shirt (not sure what its classified as) is your sweater heavier than that?

Tonight I tried adding a thermal long sleeve shirt under the sweater and since the jacket is form fitting, its about all I would be able to add, nothing any heavier. btw, I just tried it for fit, no riding...


Thanks - Jon

OK here's the concept. The base should be thin and made of a material that will wick moisture away from your body. Polyester, merino or bellana wool fits the bill well. The moisture is wicked to the next layer...which is where I like thick wool sweaters. Wool will keep you warm even when wet, and it also wicks moisture. Wool isn't very wind resistant though, so you need something on the outer layer that will block the wind. BUT, you also want ventilation so you don't overheat and so moisture can evaporate. A front zip can be adjusted to let just the right amount of cool air in, while pit zips act as an exhaust to let warm air and moisture out.

I've found that breathable jacket materials usually don't...get a jacket with a front zip, pit zips and even a ventiation slit across the back. Some people swear by soft-shells like the Ibex Speedplay...others who use them can give you better info on those. There is a sub-$300 softshell thread that you might want to take a look at.

1. A wicking base layer: UnderArmour is expensive, but there are many knock-offs. I prefer lightweight polyester.

2. A 100 wt. fleece mid-layer: any fleece will wick away moisture. The thinner the fleece, the more moisture gets passed along. Patagonia fleece or Target brand fleece, it all works the same. (Use the fleece only in 0-20 degrees F. You will generate a lot of heat riding.)

3. A thin, wind-proof, breathable shell: As was mentioned earlier, they are not as effecient as they claim to be, but work alright. I always have to hang mine up, along with my fleece, after a ride.

Cheers

Trick question

There simply is no answer to dressing "correctly" in cold weather. If you are riding hard you will produce a LOT of heat and will need very little clothing. Stop or go for longer downhill stretches and you will freeze. Sweat will accumulate if you are going hard.
My advice is to look at how the XC skiiers dress. Their training garments are made with windproof fronts and crepe nylon backs. When they compete they race in thin nylon "jumpsuits" with only one layer of polypropylene underwear. I wear a very thin poly t-shirt, thin longsleeved wool/poly sweater and a Gore Windbreaker cycling jacket. This works down to minus 10 centigrades, as long as I don't stop or slow down.

I ride in total comfort in the stuff I buy at Target, Kmart and Goodwill. Also the bargain rack at my LBS. Every winter it takes me a couple weeks to get it all figured out, then I'm good to go for the rest of the year. Sorry, but with some of this fancy gear you're paying for the name and the image, not for actual improved performance. Look at the labels. They all use the same materials.

Thanks to all for the replies

To sum things up, I did get rid of the cotton and replace it with wicking materials. Also, when I was wearing the fleece, it was 15F (I realise I didn't mention that in my forst post) and the inside of the wind breaker was wet and I felt cold, but had no wicking layers.

So I think I'll keep some of what I have, replacing my lightweight techwick shirt with something a little heavier, and maybe add a heavier vest than what I have for when it is colder than 30-35.

Maybe I don't ride as hard as some and need more insulation. I avg'd 12mph on my last (38 mile) ride, so not as zippy as most riders.


Jon

I think 12 mph is pretty fast for a 38 mile ride, especially if you do it day after day.

You're doing great, but sometimes it sounds like you lack self-confidence a little? I'm not sure, maybe not. I never compare myself to how other people do, I compare myself to how I used to do.

On my last two centuries I wore a new combination of clothing which I was VERY impressed with. The century I did in mid-December started at -16C and peaked at -9C. The century I did yesterday started at -6C and peaked at -3C.

So here's what I wore, on top, for both:

- polypropylene short-sleeved T-shirt.
- coolmax long-sleeved jersey
- marino wool pullover
- polyester fleece jersey
- lined winter jacket (with a "breathable" panel in the back)

On both rides I overheated a bit (and had to unzip things for part of the ride) and on both rides I sweated A LOT ... I could have probably gotten rid of one layer ... but here's the thing ... when I finished the ride and undressed, that polypro T-shirt as my base layer was as dry as it was when I put it on in the morning. The coolmax layer was slightly damp, but not bad. The wool layer was a little bit more damp, but again, not too bad. The fleece layer was wet, as was my jacket.

But at no point on either ride did my torso ever feel chilly or damp. That polypro T-shirt had done exactly what it was supposed to do ... it effectively wicked away the sweat and sent it up into the next layer, which sent it into the next layer, etc., leaving me feeling warm and comfortable. :)

Now, my only problem is this ...... I can't find polypro stuff here in Canada!!! This wonderful piece of clothing was given to me by a friend in another country. I'd happily buy two or three more polypro T-shirts if I could find them!!

Machka

I get my polypro from Campmor. Shipping is reasonable http://www2.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?memberId=12500226&productId=19313

You can also try http://www.sierratradingpost.com

So here's what I wore, on top, for both:

- polypropylene short-sleeved T-shirt.
- coolmax long-sleeved jersey
- marino wool pullover
- polyester fleece jersey
- lined winter jacket (with a "breathable" panel in the back)

On both rides I overheated a bit (and had to unzip things for part of the ride) and on both rides I sweated A LOT ... I could have probably gotten rid of one layer ... but here's the thing ... when I finished the ride and undressed, that polypro T-shirt as my base layer was as dry as it was when I put it on in the morning. The coolmax layer was slightly damp, but not bad. The wool layer was a little bit more damp, but again, not too bad. The fleece layer was wet, as was my jacket.
I consider you to be THE expert on the subject, so I was actually proud to discover that I'm wearing the same as you. EXCEPT that in our milder climate I skip th long-sleeved jersey. This winter has been so warm that I usually don't need the wool (mine is cashmere :p ) layer either.

When I get to work and colleagues ask me if it isn't too cold to be riding, I make them feel my sweaty jacket! :D

Machka

I get my polypro from Campmor. Shipping is reasonable http://www2.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?memberId=12500226&productId=19313

You can also try http://www.sierratradingpost.com


THANK YOU!!! :) :)

And they aren't very expensive either, which is nice.

I consider you to be THE expert on the subject, so I was actually proud to discover that I'm wearing the same as you. EXCEPT that in our milder climate I skip th long-sleeved jersey. This winter has been so warm that I usually don't need the wool (mine is cashmere :p ) layer either.

When I get to work and colleagues ask me if it isn't too cold to be riding, I make them feel my sweaty jacket! :D

Thanks! :)

That's several years of experimentation there! I used to wear the coolmax as my inner layer, but it didn't wick as well as I would have liked, and it stayed just a bit damp, which of course got cold. That polypro layer works beautifully ... I can stop to adjust something on my bicycle or whatever, and not instantly freeze to death, because it is dry and keeps me warm.

A lot of people just don't realize how warm you get when you cycle. When I lived in Winnipeg, I preferred to cycle to work on sub-freezing days rather than standing around waiting for the bus ... it was a lot warmer!! (It was also a lot faster too).

And the amount we sweat, even in the colder temps, also means that we must remember to keep hydrated. That's something I tend to let slide a bit because I don't feel like drinking when it is cooler, but it is important.

jfortier,

All of the above advice about wicking layers is good. However, in the last few days I have discovered something really effective but it requires some careful garment selection.

First off as has been stated you must ditch the cotton.

There are also some things that get over looked in most discussions and that is that a layering garment can serve two functions.

I have found it is best if the wicking layers are also insulating layers. For a while I was using an under armor kind of wicking layer but I finally found that it did not work very well.

Here's what I use at 35 F and it is both warm, light and comfortable.

First layer is an inexpensive polypropylene long sleeve thermal ski top made by duofold. IT is very lightweight and is a knit fabric. This is very important. I have found that if the first layers are both of a wicking fabric and of a thermal knit type of weave they both wick and insulate very well. These are available in any ski and sporting good store for about 12 - 15 USD.

Second I wear a short sleeve polyester knit tee shirt made by alpine designs. It has a thermal type of weave pattern but is lightweight polyester. Third, I wear a long sleeve zip turtleneck polyester shirt by Alpine design. This is the same lightweight thermal knit weave as the short sleeve shirt. These shirts are 20 -30 USD.

Now all three layers are thin wicking and insulating. The thermal knit weave is important in that it traps a lot of air and it actually improves the wicking ability of the fabric for some reason.

Then I wear a Gore windstopper cycling jacket to break the wind. This is an exellent jacket for about 100 USD. It is very wind resistant and very breathable. But any highly breathable windbreaker should work. The Gore has a open mesh nylon lining that forms an air zone between the outer skin and the first insulating layer that helps to evaporate the moisture.

For backup I stow a lightweight new balance runners fleece zip top in a small backpack. Usually I don't use it.

Also, it is very important not to compress the layers to tightly by wearing something to tight like an under armor shirt over any of the layers. The layers are realatively form fitting but not to tight.

This combination is very comfortable in the 35 -40 F range. And I get colder than most cyclist's. Many cyclist's would be very warm in this between 25 - 35 F. When it gets really cold I wear the same under layers but I substitute a lightly insulated snow boarding jacket with .25 inch thinsulate insulation (until I can make a good insulated cycling jacket as none seem available). This is good down to 10 F no problem. ANd I always have the extra fleece in case I need to add it.

If the above doesn't keep you warm at 35 F I would suggest not changing the layering but wearing the lightly insulated outer layer or jacket at a little higher temperture.

I think 12 mph is pretty fast for a 38 mile ride, especially if you do it day after day.

You're doing great, but sometimes it sounds like you lack self-confidence a little? I'm not sure, maybe not. I never compare myself to how other people do, I compare myself to how I used to do.

not sure of what your ride consists of? hill? traffic? ???

I avg about 17mph fully loaded MTB (@45lbs)

I have a PI Micro fiber balaclava...works great in 30 degree (F) weather and sub ZERO weather.

Under Armour Cold Gear is a must for me in the Sub-Zero Temps.

With your outer windproof layer, try a "Huff Test".
Hold the material over your mouth to make a seal and huff with a long steady exhalation.
Waterproof material will block any breath.
Windproof material should allow your huff to flow through but under pressure. If you can huff through the material easily it wont block wind.

Once you have your inner and outer layers sorted, you select midlayer to regulate your temp. Use thin fleece or woolen jumpers. Thick fleece is usually too much insulation unless you are in arctic conditions. Sleeveless garments are useful for fine tuning.
If your core gets sweaty, you can experiment with distributing insulation from your core to your extremities.
Sometimes I put a sleeveless zipped fleece over my windproof. It comes off easily and is useful emergency insulation for cold descents and puncture repairs.

Very good point about not compressing insulating layers, especially on the feet. I just got some ColdGear for christmas that I like but only as a first layer. It is a compression fit so it would reduce the insulating capability of any thing under it. On you feet wear as may layers as you can fit in your shoes loosely. I have several times added and extra layer of socks only to find that it actually made my feet colder. The compression reduced the air space of the fabric and its the air that is the insulator not the material itself.
Craig

not sure of what your ride consists of? hill? traffic? ???

I avg about 17mph fully loaded MTB (@45lbs)

I have a PI Micro fiber balaclava...works great in 30 degree (F) weather and sub ZERO weather.

Under Armour Cold Gear is a must for me in the Sub-Zero Temps.

For those that may not be aware, 17 mph average on a 45 lb mountain bike is extremely fast. Especially if you are covering any sort of distance and have wide knobby tires. 17 mph on a road bike in the Summer is a good average for most average to slightly above average riders.

I'm not calling you a liar. I guess I am just saying that you are VERY fast. (or your trip is downhill both ways, or tailwind both ways)

For those that may not be aware, 17 mph average on a 45 lb mountain bike is extremely fast. Especially if you are covering any sort of distance and have wide knobby tires. 17 mph on a road bike in the Summer is a good average for most average to slightly above average riders.

I'm not calling you a liar. I guess I am just saying that you are VERY fast. (or your trip is downhill both ways, or tailwind both ways)


LMAO... no it's pretty flat!
I run Town & Country (Conti's) tires 26 x 1.9 (inverted treads)
I can get up to 25-28 mph on a 6 mile stretch of my ride.
And YES I tend to push myself! I love the workout.

I should take pics of the computer! 20 miles is the distance :D

***course all bets are Off when it is below 0 (or bad weather duh)