Touring - racks for touring

We are progressing from touring on our 28 year old Peugeot UO-8s to doing the same thing on new Treks 520s.

Our Peugeot's sport 28 year old Blackburn racks, so I bought a pair of new Blackburn Expedition rear racks -- brand loyalty, I guess. I am not happy with the choice.

It turned out that the rack is 5" wide but our frames have 6" between the mounting holes at the dropouts (with a 9-speed drive train). "Spread the rack," the instructions say. They are tough racks, tough to spread, too. I ended up doing more damage to the bike finish at the mounting holes than any useful spreading. Then I found that the supports that _should_ attach to the seat stays will not allow me to adjust the rack level on my wife's 23" frame (though it might work on my 21" frame).

So, it's a good thing I can return these, but what do I try next. Living where I do, we have no LBS. I have to order by web or mail and often have to return things. (I just received 6 helmets I ordered, only 2 of which will fit me. In the end, I'll mail back five of the six. It's the only way I could get a good helmet that fits and allowed me to compare.)

A-n-y-w-a-y, what do other people use on wide rear dropout spacing bikes like the 520s for loaded touring? Jandd racks look like they'd fit. Will they work with any panniers? Other options? Tubus? Are they wide enough?

Thanks,

Mike Sakarias
Juneau Alaska

Good News. There are enough well known rack available in the market that can solve your problem

try the Tubus Cargo Rack US$85. It is made in Germany, light steel, good design and Highly respected http://www.lickbike.com/

Old man Mountain rack come in wide variety www.oldmanmountain.com
light and fully adjustable, but quite expensive (made of aluminium)

there are also Topeak rack www.parrot-online.com

Note : (rack made of steel can be repaired easily during your tour, but not aluminum) good quality rack always come with a price!

I have spread a Blackburn rack quite successfully, and I have narrowed a few others.

The key is to do it OFF the bike. If your 28-yera-old rack looks like my 22-year-old rack, the new Expedition is much stronger, and the Expedition 2 (EX-2) is an even better choice.

To fit your wife's bike, you should have received tie bars in 3 different lengths. Smaller bikes usually need the shorter ties.

But I concede quite easily that if you want something really strong -- and especially if you ride on gravel -- Tubus Cargo is the way to go.

Regards,

Michel,

I was trying to spread the legs of the rack off the bike, but was making no progress, no permanent spread. I was a bit worried about doing damage to the rack. I was not sure where it would give, as I could hear it creaking as I tried to spread it.

I agree the racks are much stronger than the Blackburns we have, which have been adequate for some very loaded trips through British Columbia.

The "tie bars" (more like slotted metal strips with a twist at the end) were just too long. The Trek 520 has long chain stays, so the rear wheel should be far enough back. I could "make" those work, by letting the end curve out of the slot in the rack, but "tacky" is a work that applies to the appearance.

I may give it another try, but I'm a bit in limbo. I assumed installation would be straight forward and not require re-engineering things.

Mike Sakarias
Juneau Alaska

OK, I used sufficient force and spread the ends from their 4.25 inches (narrower than the rack top) to the 6 inches necessary for the Trek 520 rear frame. By luck, my first big effort was perfect. By blind luck, both legs bent out at the same angle (I measured just to check that out) so the rack sits nice and centered. The separation between the legs is now 6 inches plus a tiny bit. Perfect.

Now, I still have the issue of the "Extenders" as Blackburn calls them. To level the rack, the ends of the extenders have to end beyond the end of the little slot they fit in and are bolted to. It this just how it's done? Sure doesn't look very sleek. Looks sort of kludgy, actually, like I have the wrong part.

The Blackburn rack I installed on the 21" Santana tandem we owned many years ago, used the same seat stay attachment. I do not recall any problems with these extender straps. Is that just the difference between the stay angle on a 21" frame versus the 23" frame I am trying to fit this on, currently?

Oh, Michel, to answer your question: There is just the one set of extenders.

Mike Sakarias
Juneau Alaska

Mike,

I double checked. It's the rack that came with the Burley Piccolo that had 3 sets of tie bars. The Blackburn came with a single set, and the bike shop gave me an extra set of shorter ones.

You could cut the loose end so it doesn't look too bad. However, I wonder if there wouldn't be any risk of the tie bars splitting open in the long run. Otherwise, you got the idea: there will be a section dangling in the middle: not exactly a "finished" job, but not too bad. Pliers can help you shape the tie bars so they bend in the right place.

The main difference between your tandem and your single is geometry. Generally speaking, taller frames have a steeper angle for the seat stays... which means shorter tie bars. My 520 has a 25" frame, and the front end of the rack almost touches the brake. By comparison, I have an EX-2 on the Piccolo (12" frame) and the exposed part of tie bar is 7'" long.

Regards,

Originally posted by mgagnonlv

You could cut the loose end so it doesn't look too bad. However, I wonder if there wouldn't be any risk of the tie bars splitting open in the long run.


I have been thinking about this bit of re-engineering. The "extenders" are slotted till very hear their back end, so cutting them to length would leave them open at the end and prone to separating. Adding a third hole in the attachment bars, near the end of the "extenders," and adding a washer might serve to keep things together. There might just be enough of a lip where the "extenders" rest to be a solid connection. Still, this one-size-fits-all approach looks dumb when it doesn't work.

I have an email out to Bell Sports (as in Bell Helmets), who own Blackburn. (Blackburn does not appear to have any sort of web presence of their own, anymore, unlike Giro, which is also owned by Bell Sports.) We'll see if the Bell customer service folks can give me any useful feedback. I'll post what I get.

Mike Sakarias
Juneau Alaska

Another issue I noticed today is that the welds used to hold everything together at the top of the rack are skinny. All of them bridge open space -- the rods, themselves, do not touch. None of the welds, in the middle of these gaps, has more than maybe 1/3 of the cross sectional area of the rods. A couple look like they are less that 25%. Skinny.

This does not install a lot of confidence.

I hope I establish communications with Bell (Blackburn). Maybe they can convince me skinny welds are OK.

Mike Sakarias
Juneau Alaska

Have a read ogf the thread a few down called 'Why not full size panniers up front'

I put in a long mail with a copy of the text from the SJSC site (who do mail order) and claim to make the best racks in the business, and they are all designed primarilly with 26" wheel bikes in mind rather than the other way around

Here is Bell's reply regarding the extenders for the Blackburn EX-1 Expedition rack:

[quote]
Well, the extenders may stick out a bit, yes. The rack is meant to fit several different sizes of bikes. The extenders need to be the right size to accommodate all those bikes.
[end quote]

Mike Sakarias
Juneau Alaska

My wife has Tubus on her 9 speed bike, and they fit fine. Are also very light.

This may be a late response but, I have 4 bikes that I ride regularly, 1 road, 1 touring, 1 commuter and 1 mountain bike. I use only topeak racks, they never have let me down and have the bag rail attachment system that actually works and makes bag removal and installation very easy. On my commuter and touring bike I have the topeak rack mule rack, not produced anymore but still available if you look, this rack allows for the trunk bag to be mounted using the rail system while you have panniers attached. My commuter has over 14,000 miles of loaded riding on it. my touring bike also has a rack mule front low rider rack, the touring bike has over 6,000 miles on it. my road bike has a topeak utility rack that allows either pannier or trunk bag mounting but not both together. the bike and rack have over 15,000 miles on them. none of these racks have failed in any way, all are stable when loaded and came with a large variety of mounting hardware. They are all aluminum and are structuraly sound. I also have a topeak seatpost rack that I use on my mountain bike that has always worked well for me.

mrfix,

It's not too late, for me at least. While I am trying to keep an open mind about Blackburn, I am looking for alternatives.

I have not looked into Topeak and will, now. Though I have them on my list of folks to look at for handlebar bags (another issue entirely).

The Jannd rear rack looks good, and the welds are definitely better than what I can see on the Blackburn racks I have in hand; but, they are heavier than the Blackburn. I'm not sure what I think about that, or about having a flat top versus just a few cross bars as on both the new and old Blackburn racks.

Somewhere I read about the Tubus giving someone problems with keeping the rack to seat tube attachment arrangement tight.

The old Blackburn rear rack on my older Peugeot UO-8s (28 year old bike, purchased new) has probably 30,000 miles of bike commuting and touring time with bags attached (I had a 35 RT mile bike commute for several years when I lived in San Diego. I'd ride almost daily during daylight savings time). This vintage rack is not super stiff but has worked well. It _IS_ stiffer than the rack that came with the two new Trek 520s, though, so I DO want to install new racks before we use the Treks for touring. BTW, we are still using our UO-8s; too many happy miles on them to get rid of them; and, I haven't run out of repair parts, yet. We are using them for indoor training on rollers this fall. (It rains a lot in Juneau. I have not been on the road for three weeks.)

Mike Sakarias
Juneau Alaska

Mike
You really need to take a look at the topeak delux trunk bag and rack with the rail mounting system, it's so easy to just push the lock tab down and slide the bag off the back of the bike and take it with you. The bag is very well designed also, it's expandable and large enough to carry what you need. Some days I carry only the trunk bag, in it I carry my clothes, pants, shirt, socks and lunch and cell phone, in the side pockets I carry my wallet, keys, chain lube , spare light and CO2 cartridges. In the top pocket I carry 5 tire tubes, a cassette removal tool and chain whip, a chain breaker with a small length of chain and a spare folding conti 2000 700-28C tire. Under my clothes I carry spare spokes. The bag is insulated and somewhat wter proof, it has a shoulder strap and carry handle, a water bottle compartment on the back of the bag and a tail light mounting sleeve. I have never found a more effective bag. Check it out, if you use your bike for utility purposes, this is the bag to have.

Mike,

I haven't seen the Jandd racks live, but on the IBOB and touring lists (ref. at http://www.bikelist.org ), there have been many not so good reviews on the Jandd rear racks (Expedition?).

People like the length of the rack, but the major complaint is about lack of rigidity. On that regard, the Blackburn EX-2 seems to offer the most bang for the price, but even the EX-1 is better than the Jandd. On that list, many folks didn't like at all Trek's rear rack, but a few were quite satisfied from it. I haven't seen anyone review the Topeak rack or compare it to others.

BTW, regarding welds on the racks.
Yours might be defective, but there is no need for complete welds. I'll check at home on my two EX-2 to see how long are the welds. I know that my 22 year old Blackburn rack wasn't quite as stable as the Trek and newer Blackburn racks.

I also have an EX-1 that came with a baby seat. The rack survived fairly well an accident where the bike was a total loss. The main tubes are slightly bent and I don't feel comfortable re-using it (especially with a child), but overall, it still looks fairly good... Fortunately, I wasn't on the bike at that time...


Regarding the rear rack that came with your Trek 520, I haven't had time to fully try it. It was not stable when I received the bike. I noticed, however, that the legs are adjustable and that the bolts used to secure the length were not tightened. After tightening these bolts, the rack appeared to be more solid. Not too long after, I moved the rack onto my daughter's Trail-a-Bike, where it mostly received light loads. That Trail-a-Bike has outlived itself and is now used for Winter cycling. The newer trailer cycle (Burley Piccolo) sports a Blackburn EX-2.

Regards,

Interesting about the Jandd rack opinions.

I had snugged up those adjusting nuts on the Trek racks, including using them to level one of them out. There is more sideways flex in the Trek racks than our old Blackburns.

The welds on both of the new EX-1s I have in hand are similar. There is good weld contact area on the rods but the rods do not touch (like the jig holding things was not well set up). The weld in the small gap between the rods is thinner, sort of like what happens when you stretch taffy, thinner in the middle. Rather than looking welded together, the top rectangle looks like it is supported by the welds. The weld at the very back is a nice beefy bead weld.

With my old Blackburns, there is better contact between the rods; and, the welds wrap around both rods much better.

Maybe these welds are strong enough. I don't know. I have not received a reply back from Bell Sports on that question, yet. (I'll bug them in a day or two.) Blackburn does have a Lifetime Warranty. Maybe I'll live with it -- and make sure to take some wire and filament tape in my repair kit.

Mike Sakarias
Juneau Alaska

Originally posted by sakarias
....

The welds on both of the new EX-1s I have in hand are similar. There is good weld contact area on the rods but the rods do not touch (like the jig holding things was not well set up). The weld in the small gap between the rods is thinner, sort of like what happens when you stretch taffy, thinner in the middle. Rather than looking welded together, the top rectangle looks like it is supported by the welds. The weld at the very back is a nice beefy bead weld.


Mike,

On my crooked EX-1 and the 2 EX-2 that I have, there might be a 1-mm gap between the 2 U-bars (front and middle struts) and the top horizontal frame. The gap is closed by tiny TIG welds that look tiny from the top, but quite complete from the bottom.

The rear U-bar touches the horizontal frame. Looking from behind, it looks unwelded, but looking from inside, the weld does about 2/3 of the length.

On each side, the three struts touch eachother at the base, and the weld is almost 1" long.

My only problem is that these racks are black, and pannier hooks tend to eat the paint, litterally. The Burley Moose rack (the one that comes with the Piccolo) fares better on that regards, but I'm not sure whether it's due to a difference in painting or simply because aluminum is softer than steel.




With my old Blackburns, there is better contact between the rods; and, the welds wrap around both rods much better.

I can't really compare. My old Blackburn (bought in 1980) was chromed and I remember that welds were cute but tiny. I had 2 or 3 racks replaced on warranty by the bike shop, all within 1 month. However, where I worked at that time, I had collegues who were doing MIG welding. So one day I brought the rack to my collegue and he did not-so-nice, but very solid welds, which have lasted on the bike for 20 years. I still have the rack. I just removed it because I had an extra sturdier one on hand.

So with that experience in mind, I'd suggest that you load your rack (grocery is wonderful for that) and do some gravel roads. If it has to break, you'll see it quickly...

Regards,

Originally posted by mgagnonlv

On my crooked EX-1 and the 2 EX-2 that I have, there might be a 1-mm gap between the 2 U-bars (front and middle struts) and the top horizontal frame. The gap is closed by tiny TIG welds that look tiny from the top, but quite complete from the bottom.

Michel,

OK, this sounds very much like what I see, so I guess these are normal. Giving them a load test will have to wait for better weather. It's been a pretty rainy October, so far in "Soggy Southeast Alaska."

Thanks for all your input and everyone else, too.

Originally posted by mgagnonlv
Mike,

I haven't seen the Jandd racks live, but on the IBOB and touring lists (ref. at http://www.bikelist.org ), there have been many not so good reviews on the Jandd rear racks (Expedition?).

People like the length of the rack, but the major complaint is about lack of rigidity.
Regards,

I've got the Jandd Expedition, and I like it. I haven't found it to be wobbly. It's rated to 50lbs, and up to there it's pretty firm, as far as I've been able to tell. Perhaps the rack is more sensitive to packing methods than others? Anyway, I'm perfectly comfortable on very fast descents with heavily loaded Jandd racks front and back myself. My bike's always been rock steady with the Jandd racks.

For what it's worth, too, I've taken long tours with less good racks than the Expedition, and the wobbling on those things, while sometimes noticeable, wasn't a big deal, either.

This might be worth noting to someone who's wondering whether to shell out for even more expensive racks than the Jandd. The Expedition will do quite well for a lot of riders, particularly those who are only touring on the road.

The length of the Jandd is very cool, too. You can tie a lot back there, if you need to. Huge panniers are also possible on non-touring bikes with the rack, though I've got mine on a 45cm chainstay so it's not such an important matter for me.

It's sometimes said too that the possibility of welding repairs to steel racks is an advantage on hard core tours far from civilization. I don't understand this, myself: if you can find a welder, aren't you also somewhere where you can receive a new Jandd aluminum rack via express delivery?

Cheers.

Here is a reply from Blackburn regarding the rack welds:

[quote]
As far as the rack is concerned, it has been tested to hold a child seat, w/child, up to 40lbs. We are not aware of there being a problem with the welds. They do have a lifetime warranty, so if something were to break we could replace it for you.
[end quote]

I'll wait a few days for this all to settle in, but will likely keep the Blackburn racks. It seems like they will be sturdy enough for our uses -- and it saves the hassle and expense of returning them and ordering somethings else.

Originally posted by Merriwether

......
It's sometimes said too that the possibility of welding repairs to steel racks is an advantage on hard core tours far from civilization. I don't understand this, myself: if you can find a welder, aren't you also somewhere where you can receive a new Jandd aluminum rack via express delivery?



Asking for a new rack via express delivery does take time. It's the hassle of finding the telephone number, calling the company during business hours, and waiting at least one business day, maybe two to get the replacement part. And I don't know about Jandd, but some companies will either want proof that the thing is broken (i.e. via bike shop), or will ask you to pay the money and get reimbursed afterwards. Besides, express delivery in rural areas is usually fairly costly and rarely reimbursed by the manufacturer.

By contrast, in most villages it's fairly easy to find someone with an arc welding machine: just look at a garage with a mechanics on duty or look in the yellow pages under "machine shop". Repairing aluminum requires TIG or MIG welding (although a few welders succeed without it), while repairing steel can be done with any arc machine.

In terms of availability, I have often toured in civilised places where the closest bike shop was 500-1000 km away (Northern Ontario, Newfoundland and Québec's Lower North Shore), but where garages were plentiful. And I'm aware that even today, one would pay an arm and a leg to get 3-day delivery from Central Canada to Northern Newfoundland. And that's even worst if the object has to cross international borders.

P.S. Usually, when I break something that bad, it happens on Saturday morning, on a 3-day weekend.

Regards,

I'm riding a 23 inch Trek 520 w/ the Blackburn expedition rack. I don't recall any extraordinary issues w/ the mounting, but I do recall difficulty w/ the spread of the rack.

I've been having issues w/ my digital camera, but I'll try and get a couple of shots of the rack mount to see if those can help, although it sounds like you know what you are doing more than I did when I installed mine.

I have no complaints w/ the blackburn rack. I use Vaude waterproof panniers and have some issues w/ the mounting clips, but much fewer than I had w/ the original Trek rack, which was a bit of flimsy garbage IMHO. With just regular commuting wear without heavy loads I managed to break the weld on the rear of the rack.

Oso

I've been using a Blackburn EX2 rack for a few months, mainly commuting or hauling heavy groceries and it seems pretty tough.
On the negative side, I'm not keen on the spacing struts that you need to bend to fit, and the reflector mount is a very bad joke. Busch & Muller do a decent mount for open racks like Blackburn for only a couple of quid but it's heavy.

Richard