How about those Amish?

[Roody]

I know they are carfree. Are they bikefree too? That would be one drawback....

[Juha]

I'm curious too. How do Amish define what is acceptable technology and what is not? Somehow I doubt I will be able to find loads of information on this by googling...

--J

[Alekhine]

I used to tour in Amish country all the time - beautiful people, and I loved buying foodstuffs from them because they made them so delicious.

Some Amish use bikes, but they don't let their kids use them. Most others are patently against them, apparently (I wasn't aware of this at the time of writing this post. I just looked it up in one of my Amish history books, and bicycles were banned by the Amish in the 1890s. There are different orders though, with different rules). The Southern NY Amish loved that I was travelling with full camping and touring gear on my bike. I got words and nods of approval from them all the time, which was frankly heartwarming.

Little by little though, the world is forcing them to comply with modernity in ways they couldn't have predicted. Hospital bills in particular tend to eat up what little money they have. Careful of confusing the Amish with similarly austere-looking Mennonites though: I've seen Mennonites in Letchworth State Park roll up in a gigantor RV and proceed to eat Frosted Flakes by my favorite overlook there, and then drive the gas chuffer right back out again.

[Guest]

Maybe not. Floyd Landis is Amish.

Koffee

[TuckertonRR]

I've seen Amish riding bikes around eastern Lancaster County PA.

[peterm5365]

The Amish do not ride bikes, people that are dressed in the plain style of the Amish that are on bicycles are most likely Mennonites. The amish do allow their children to ride scooters and use roller blades, but bicycles are banned by the Ordnung (the rules that govern Amish society). Also, Floyd Landis was a Mennonite, but he no longer is.

[Juha]

Lo and behold, there is loads of info on the net about the Amish. Maybe cycling/non-cycling issue varies, there seems to be several groups with different Ordnungs.

--J

[Roody]

I see lots of Amish on Greyhound busses. They tell me they are visiting family in other areas. Also they were bussing down to New Orleans to help out with Katrina relief.

I used to go to a farm auction in Hillsdale, MI. The Amish came in large numbers. They rode in with their neighbors, who happened to be Mexican farmers and farm workers. I thought this was an interesting example of cultural symbiosis. If they think it's OK to ride in a car with neighbors, why do some of us think it's wrong?

I have never seen an Amish person on a bicycle. I think the young adults sometimes spend a year or two outside the community. Maybe they ride bikes then? If so, it must be hard to stop when they go back....

[peterm5365]

There are several groups like the Beachy Amish that are more progressive, but they are not really considered to be Amish by the Old Order Amish that people generally think of when they here the term Amish. Each district can make its own Ordnung, but the Lancaster County Amish do not use bicycles. Those that do would be in the minority like those that use tractors (with steel wheels). Tractors with rubber tires could be used as transportation without the obvious distance limits that horses bring into the mix. It's the same reason that they generally do not allow bicycles. Too much freedom of movement would splinter the community.

The Amish are much less ascetic than most people realize. They have blenders and irons and all kinds of conveniences. They can ride in cars (except on the sabbath, but not own them. They can have electricity and phone lines to their barns, but not to their homes. Some have cell phones as they are not explicitly prohibited in many districts. Each district is run individually so there's a great deal of variation.

[smurfy]

I was on an invitational bike ride near a Dunkard community around 40 or so miles southeast of Cincinnati. They use horses and buggies for transportation but have some modern conveniences that I saw them using such as a weedeater on the front lawn, a forklift at one of thier businesses, for example.

What was interesting was the Dunkard women and children were very friendly and outgoing, waving and saying hi, whereas the men are shy and do not smile. They would turn the other way or look at me suspiciously when I would ride by them. I'm not sure but I think it was because of what we cyclists were wearing (lycra shorts and loud colorful jerseys).

[Roody]

[...] What was interesting was the Dunkard women and children were very friendly and outgoing, waving and saying hi, whereas the men are shy and do not smile. They would turn the other way or look at me suspiciously when I would ride by them. I'm not sure but I think it was because of what we cyclists were wearing (lycra shorts and loud colorful jerseys).
Yeah...the kids liked the bright colors and the women LOVED the shorts! :love:

[burbankbiker]

I know they are carfree. Are they bikefree too?

Yeah, sorta. They have 2-wheeled vehicles but, because it would be considered a machine... they don't have pedals that turn cranks and gears and all that. The have scooters, prettty much, but on a larger bike wheelbase.

http://www.worthcrafting.com/scooter2440.jpg

[Olebiker]

Years ago I got caught in a downpour while on a bike ride. I was in an Amish area and was invited to take refuge under a canvas awning where an blacksmith was working. It was fascinating watching him work iron without benefit of modern tools.

I noted that no water was making its way through the canvas and asked him how he had waterproofed it. I expected him to tell me of some arcane mixture of beeswax and turpentine or some such. "Scotchguard" he replied, grinning at me from under the brim of his hat. "We're simple, not stupid."

[Brad M]

The Mennonite communities of southern Ontario use bikes extensively. Like the Amish they have different interpretations of their rules, some even with cars and modern farm equipment. Still the visible majority still use horses, buggies, and bicycles for transportation. Watching them maintain fields with teams of clydesdales is too cool.

[Roody]

When I was a kid there were lots of Mennonites (and Amish) near my grandma's house. They had cars, but they took all the chrome off. Maybe I'm Mennonite--I don't have any bling on my bike! :D

[CommuterRun]

Are there any Amish on the forum we could ask? ;)

[-=£em in Pa=-]

When I lived in PA I lived in Amish country.
A lot of hillbillies where openly hostile to them because they
dont pay taxes or thier buggies held them (hillbillies) up on thier
way to Wal-Mart to pick up a NASCAR T-Shirt. I really respect
them. Thier views on earth and land are very much like mine.
Some people would make money from them by taxi-ing them to and
from doctor appointments in cars and they have thier own sort of
'mating season'....a specific time when they get all the marriages
out of the way. If you are a neighbor they bring you HUGE plates of food
and fruit in celebration. Some Amish sects allow bicycles, some dont....
I consider myself a strong rider but there is NO WAY I could ever carry
the HUGE boxes and chickens and stuff on old, stovepipe, one speed balloon
tired bikes and in a long black dress like Amish women did routinely on Rt. 322
:roflmao::roflmao: If you could get some of those women in Lycra and even
on an old 10 speed they would scorch the Discovery Team !! :D

[Dewbert]

Lots of Amish on bikes in northern Indiana.

[Juha]

I noted that no water was making its way through the canvas and asked him how he had waterproofed it. I expected him to tell me of some arcane mixture of beeswax and turpentine or some such. "Scotchguard" he replied, grinning at me from under the brim of his hat. "We're simple, not stupid."

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

--J

[Steele-Bike]

When I was growing up in Ohio Amish country, my parents would tell me that Amish people did not believe in cars. I took this to mean they could not see cars. I was a confused child.

Now, I live near the Amish settlement in Kalona, Iowa, which has the largest Amish population west of the Mississippi River and is also considered one of the most liberal of Amish orders. They cater to tourists and use many modern conveniences. While many complain about their hypocritcal ways, I see it as people who want to live simply and without excessive outside influences. The Kalona Amish use internal combustion equipment (chainsaws, lawnmowers, tractors), but certainly would not use a car. Each Amish order decides for themselves what is acceptable and what is not.

But, I can't say I have seen any bikes.

[Jerseysbest]

I've heard a lot of good things and a lot of bad things about the Amish. Some of the bad things, namely being incest/sexual abuse and puppy mills, remind me that every culture has its bad people.
On some level I admire them for sticking to their beliefs, but is it more a result of religious fundamentalism then just keeping their lives simple? I dunno, there's still a lot about them that I need to learn.

[knoregs]

i seem to recall a story on some other forum about a road biker out for a ride through the country on his carbon bike when he was passed be another biker... this other biker was an Amish guy on a single speed bike that must've weighed 35lbs... the road biker caught up and had a conversation with the Amish guy... seems he was on his way back home from a trip into town to pick up some supplies... a 60 mile round trip supply run... the road biker in full racing kit noticed himself laboring a bit to keep up and glanced down at his cyclo-computer and noticed they were cruising in the near mid 20's... he also noticed that the Amish guy on the heavy single speed cruiser was not laboring at all... eventually they ended their chat and the Amish guy rode on, dropping the roadie...

don't know if it's true or not but it put a smile on my face

[budster]

I sometimes shop at an Amish store just north of Statesville in the small community of Windsor Crossroads. I've seen several of the young Amish (late teens-mid 20s) on bikes, simple, rigid steel-framed MTBs. I saw one Amish woman pulling a bike trailer, loaded with groceries, with hers.

The store is on a popular road for rec cycling, and I often see spandexed roadies taking a break there. So far no Amish/roadie showdowns, though....

[KrisPistofferson]

What I've always really liked about the Amish is the fact that they take "Thou shalt not kill" literally. Most Christians who claim they take the Bible literally have lots of clever ways of circumventing this commandment, but the Amish don't.

[mcoine]

When I lived in PA I lived in Amish country.
A lot of hillbillies where openly hostile to them because they
dont pay taxes or thier buggies held them (hillbillies) up on thier
way to Wal-Mart to pick up a NASCAR T-Shirt. I really respect
them. Thier views on earth and land are very much like mine.
Some people would make money from them by taxi-ing them to and
from doctor appointments in cars and they have thier own sort of
'mating season'....a specific time when they get all the marriages
out of the way. If you are a neighbor they bring you HUGE plates of food
and fruit in celebration. Some Amish sects allow bicycles, some dont....
I consider myself a strong rider but there is NO WAY I could ever carry
the HUGE boxes and chickens and stuff on old, stovepipe, one speed balloon
tired bikes and in a long black dress like Amish women did routinely on Rt. 322
:roflmao::roflmao: If you could get some of those women in Lycra and even
on an old 10 speed they would scorch the Discovery Team !! :D

Yeah, this is about right. I grew up just east of lancaster co. pa and thats what I saw too. Amish people are cool. I do remember a story in the paper one day though, that two Amish guys, Abner Stoltzfus, and Abner King Stoltzfus (no relation, seriously) were busted for selling cocaine.

[crtreedude]

I could believe the story about the guy dropping the roadie. We have a worker who is about 53 years old - dripping wet I think he weighs under 90 lbs. The hills on on finca is pretty steep - I hate for him to go with me. I will be hoping we get to the top soon. He is in front of me whistling... Been walking those kind of hills all his life. I would hate to see him on a bike! I saw him take off and run 2 miles to collect a few loose cows once - I swear he wasn't even winded.

[abeyance]

Maybe not. Floyd Landis is Amish.

Koffee

I believe he is a Menonite

[spider-man]

I, too, used to see a lot of Amish on bikes in northern Indiana.

Believe it or not, some Amish drive too, with restrictions. When I was a teen, we had an Amish company put a new roof on our house. My dad had been concerned for weeks in advance, because he thought he might have to drive the two hours or so (one way) to pick up the Amish workers in Shipshewana or Nappanee or wherever it was. But as it turned out, the 15-year-old son of the company owner was able to drive everybody over in a ratty old pickup -- because he was not yet married.

Point being there's no one set of Amish rules.

[treehugger]

two Amish guys, Abner Stoltzfus, and Abner King Stoltzfus (no relation, seriously) were busted for selling cocaine.
I remember that story too. I believe the young men in question were on their year away from the community before they become full fledged members, get married, etc, or, I suppose, leave. My understanding that there is quite a lot of leeway regarding this period to help cirucmvent rebellion later on, although I hardly imagine drug trafficking is encouraged.

I have this distant respect for the Amish, although it could certainly be better informed. My understanding is that while there are different restrictions on technology (which people have been pointing towards the multi-layered nuances of) it is not out of some sort of fear of belief that technology is evil, per se, but out of a desire that technology not rule their lives, which they believe are better spent in family and community and religion. My mom worked at a children's hospital in Delaware and I met some Amish people there who used cars to get there, where of course there were all sorts of techonology being used, so I became aware there was some leeway in such matters.

[KrisPistofferson]

All the Amish I've ever met were reasonable, friendly people, and weren't nearly as clueless and naive as people seem to think they are. Shoot, with all the "Live Simply" and/or Luddite stuff that gets posted here,(I'm guilty too, don't flame me,) you'd think they'd be heroes.

[becnal]

Someone brought up the term "fundamentalism" when refering to Amish. That really is a loaded term.

I mean, Christians practice god-cannibalism on a weekly basis, and we're saying the Amish are fundamentalists cause they don't ride bikes???

Well, I'm no expert, but at least Amish have grasped the basic idea of not needing to convert everyone they meet. As far as I can tell, they practice "live and let live". That makes anybody ok in my book.

[ViciousCycle]

"As these frugal people [the Amish] well know, technology and in particular motorized technology, always brings a cost, whether up-front, in dollars, or long-term, in repairs, fuel, and maintenance. More important, even at low monetary cost, experience showed that gadgetry can easily interfere with the delicate dynamics of the human welfare it is supposed to promoted." -- From Eric Brende's Better Off: Flipping the Switch on Technology
* * *
One of the most impressive things about the Amish is that young Amish farmers are still able to start farms at a time when so many other small-scale farmers have gotten out of business entirely. Of course, their methods don't require them to accumulate massive amounts of new debts every year for expensive chemical fertilizers and expensive motorized farm equipment and agbusiness' propietary seeds. Moreover, their farming methods don't deplete the soil, so they're not destroying their farms in the process of farming them.

[francismacomber]

Hey I am new to the forum, so don't hammer me to bad for this being my first post. :)

I am a Mennonite (reformed, electricity, you know, all the supposed "good stuff"), so I can't speak for the Amish, but fundamental is a misnomer when talking about the groups. Maybe some are fundamental in their biblical interpretation (inerrant historical Word, etc.) but alot of Mennonites are quite progressive in their political and religious beliefs. Their values are just differnt from the mainstream. Things like non-violence (to the earth as well as to each other) and community trump other values more widely held. The whole thing with community and no technology isnt about of fear of technology or the devil or anything like that, it's about accountability to the community. Some Amish, I am told, can have telephones- if they are in a telephone booth in their front yard- so everyone knows when they use the phone and what they are doing. I could ramble all day on this, butl as I said, I am not Amish so I can't speak for them. There are alot of very green-conscious and bike-friendly people in my denomination, though. :)

A big discussion in the Church at-large is the loss of these "values" and the slippage into Protestant evangelicalism, so go figure.

(hopefully car-free someday soon myself)
Cheers

[Roody]

Hey I am new to the forum, so don't hammer me to bad for this being my first post. :)

I am a Mennonite (reformed, electricity, you know, all the supposed "good stuff"), so I can't speak for the Amish, but fundamental is a misnomer when talking about the groups. Maybe some are fundamental in their biblical interpretation (inerrant historical Word, etc.) but alot of Mennonites are quite progressive in their political and religious beliefs. Their values are just differnt from the mainstream. Things like non-violence (to the earth as well as to each other) and community trump other values more widely held. The whole thing with community and no technology isnt about of fear of technology or the devil or anything like that, it's about accountability to the community. Some Amish, I am told, can have telephones- if they are in a telephone booth in their front yard- so everyone knows when they use the phone and what they are doing. I could ramble all day on this, butl as I said, I am not Amish so I can't speak for them. There are alot of very green-conscious and bike-friendly people in my denomination, though. :)

A big discussion in the Church at-large is the loss of these "values" and the slippage into Protestant evangelicalism, so go figure.

(hopefully car-free someday soon myself)
Cheers
Real good points francis. My friend's Amis neighbors had a telephone hung on a tree in their front yard near Vermontville, MI. My grandmother lived near you (Constantine, MI) and had a lot of lady friends who were Mennonites. I think they were the only people in town who shared her progressive and especially pacifist beliefs. The Amish and Mennonites both do a lot of good work all over the world, and they never try to convert others, as far as I know, unless it is with their good examples rather than with sermons or Bible verses.

Welcome to Bikeforums. I hope you like it!

[FXjohn]

What I've always really liked about the Amish is the fact that they take "Thou shalt not kill" literally. Most Christians who claim they take the Bible literally have lots of clever ways of circumventing this commandment, but the Amish don't.


We have lots of Amish around here, and they do wear traditional clothing and ride brand new bikes.
They are nice, but there is no reason to try to make them out to be perfect.
They do skirt the tax issue unfairly, IMHO.
They DO kill animals for food, of course, which I am sure most here will give THEM a pass for.
Instead of having a utility bill, they have a lot of small engines. It's common to see a wood shop with a lot of small gas engines running things, and running a big air compressor, or see a horse pulling field machines with engines on them.
many have separate small buildings with a telephone inside them. They really seem to like fast food restaraunts, which i find strange (yuck).
The pacifism as some people have seen portrayed in the movie "witness" is awesome though!
Recently an Amish couple here were robbed by some idiots in a car...their take? One dollar!! they were later caught..LOL.
If you're ever in Shipshewana, Indiana, they have a museum which explains their beliefs and their past.
They are fundies through and through.

[francismacomber]

but there is no reason to try to make them out to be perfect.

Agreed, and I certainly didn't mean to claim that they were- but I think it goes to my point that their beliefs are rooted in their interpretation of the bible and their view of community values and accountability to the community. It certainly doesn't make much "rational" sense. I think that is alot of the reason why the Mennonites don't live like that anymore, but try to live a more "traditional" lifestyle while thinking about social justice, community, peace, non violence...the list goes on. Their whole way worldview is not one based in rationality but rather in their notion of "faith"- so it will likely never be an airtight philosophical worldview. Maybe that is why I think it ironic that many Anabaptist faiths are drifing into protestant evangelicalism- they seem somewhat polemic to each other at first blush.

I don't mean to sound like I know them, and the Mennonites have a whole host of problems in their own right (im not a very strict one at all). For what it is worth. Good discussion, too. You guys have a great forum here that seems to enjoy good discussions without towing the party or "community" line like alot of other forums around.

(edited for spelling)
Peace :)

[Roody]

We have lots of Amish around here, and they do wear traditional clothing and ride brand new bikes.
They are nice, but there is no reason to try to make them out to be perfect.
They do skirt the tax issue unfairly, IMHO.
They DO kill animals for food, of course, which I am sure most here will give THEM a pass for.
Instead of having a utility bill, they have a lot of small engines. It's common to see a wood shop with a lot of small gas engines running things, and running a big air compressor, or see a horse pulling field machines with engines on them.
many have separate small buildings with a telephone inside them. They really seem to like fast food restaraunts, which i find strange (yuck).
The pacifism as some people have seen portrayed in the movie "witness" is awesome though!
Recently an Amish couple here were robbed by some idiots in a car...their take? One dollar!! they were later caught..LOL.
If you're ever in Shipshewana, Indiana, they have a museum which explains their beliefs and their past.
They are fundies through and through.
Nobody's perfect! I don't see the problem with some liking motors, phones or fast food. Why did you criticise for these issues?

One criticism of the Amish is that they don't provide their children with the kind of education that would make it feasible for them to exist in mainstream society, if they chose to do so. Education in Amish schools was supposedly limited to religious matters, mainly, as well as some of more "practical" subjects.

Here in Michigan there have been court and legislative battles going back 50 years or more related to this issue. The state insisted that Amish schools must have certified teachers, which is a requirement for other schools, including parochial schools. The state also wanted Amish schools to provide the mandated curriculum, subjects like American history, civics and PE. The Amish fought against this and I believe they pretty much lost the battle.

[slagjumper]

I know they are carfree. Are they bikefree too? That would be one drawback....
http://www.lyonsroar.com/htdocs/img/articles/62/bike.jpg
From:
http://www.lyonsroar.com/htdocs/articles/index.php?artid=62

Interesting historical points-- the Amish split from the Mennonites because they were turning too worldly. Mennonites split from the Catholic/Lutherian church over the issue of baptising babies. The Amish and Mennonties believe in a "belivers baptism", (anabaptists). There are many martyr stories.
A woodcut in the 17th-century Anabaptist "Martyrs Mirror" shows Dirk Willems, an early Dutch Mennonite, saving the life of a "thief-catcher" who has fallen through the ice on a lake. The "thief-catcher" had been pursuing Willems at a burgomaster's behest, to bring him to trial and execution for his Anabaptist beliefs. After his act of mercy, Willems was nonetheless recaptured (over the protests, the Mirror notes, of his rescued pursuer) and burned at the stake. (http://www.mcusa-archives.org/photo_archives/DirkWillems1569_1460.jpg)

I've heard a lot of locals complain about the Amish and Mennonites for a variety of reasons. "They dont have to pay workman's comp, they dont pay taxes. I really think that it is jealousy. Something like 60% of Lancaster County is owned by Mennonites/Amish. The estimated value of the land is 18 K per acre. They must be paying some taxes. Nothing would hurt Lancaster county more than if the Mennonites started selling their land to the highest bidder.

I have known a wide range of both "ethnic" Mennonites and Amish. That wide range includes "fundies", but also gay liberals. All adhere to the basic biblical tennants, none are perfect.

[budster]

I covet that trailer. :)

I'm thinking that must be an Amish design? Because I saw a local Amish woman cyclist with an identical (or at least, very similar) trailer. I asked her where she'd gotten it, and she said she'd bought it secondhand and she didn't know where it had come from originally.

I want one!

[edit] I just googled "amish bicycle trailer" and got this: http://www.bicyclecart.com/

[jmbranum]

Here in Michigan there have been court and legislative battles going back 50 years or more related to this issue. The state insisted that Amish schools must have certified teachers, which is a requirement for other schools, including parochial schools. The state also wanted Amish schools to provide the mandated curriculum, subjects like American history, civics and PE. The Amish fought against this and I believe they pretty much lost the battle.

Actually the Amish have won those court fights. The US Supreme court has ruled that a state can't enforce a law that requires education past the 8th grade, which I think is wonderful. My pastor (I'm a Mennonite) and his wife grew up Amish (but later left the church and became Mennonites) and their only formal education was through the 8th grade, and then later I think a year of seminary classes. Yet, they both are incredibly intelligent, thoughtful and wise, far more so than most folks that had formal education. I work with them both a lot on peace and social justice activism work and am amazed at the kind of lives that they lead.

[jmbranum]

As far as the technology issues go, there is a broad range of diversity. Amish and conservative Mennonites are super-strict, but base their decisions on the judgment of the community as a whole, with the judgement calls being made based on two questions --- will the technology help their community and their families or will it hurt them?

Progressive Mennonites are kinda split. Some do not question modern technology at all, others seek to be thoughtful on their use of technology, limiting its scope when the effects of technology hurt nature and hurt human relationships. I fall into that second camp, but do a lot better at talking about technology than I do about actually living in the best kind of way. --- And for whatever it is worth this split seems to also be present with regards to Mennonites on social issues. Mennonites who have stayed true to the peace stance tend to also be more questioning of technology, while those who have decided to give into the preassures of American-consumeristic culture tend to be pro-war as well.

[francismacomber]

I fall into that second camp, but do a lot better at talking about technology than I do about actually living in the best kind of way. --- And for whatever it is worth this split seems to also be present with regards to Mennonites on social issues. Mennonites who have stayed true to the peace stance tend to also be more questioning of technology, while those who have decided to give into the preassures of American-consumeristic culture tend to be pro-war as well.

I agree, I recently moved from the town i grew up in,(a small Mennonite community in Nebraska) to a town in Indiana that has a good number of them, and I have noticed that the "Church" is less unified than I had recently thought. I think the more "traditional" Mennonites- more questioning of technology, more apprehensive about assimilating completely, etc., tend to be more "progressive" or "liberal" in politcal terms nowadays. Interesting how that works... I guess being non-violent makes them more "liberal." That's seems ironic to me, but just an observation- take it for what its worth.

Like I mentioned before, I'll hopefully be nearly car free soon (it takes more than just getting on your bike in the morning, as I am currently finding out.)

Peace

[jamesdenver]

i saw the movie "Devil's Playground" last year and actually gained respect for the way amish treat family life. it focused on a period of time when young people (18-20 i think), actually are requested or told to go out into the world, (cities, live like anyone else), experience it, and decide for themselves whether to continue living in the mainstream world, or return to amish society.

it was a documentary, one of the teenagers got involved with some bad decisions, others returned and some did not, and gave logical explanations

Maybe Francis if you saw can comment on whether or not it was an accurate depiction, but i thought it was interesting as most societies don't give that much respect to young people, or give them that much responsilibity so soon.

[smurfy]

I didn't see this movie, but I heard somewhere (maybe a journalist or someone discussing the movie, I forget) that the retention rate of young people staying with the Amish faith and way of life is a staggering 85 to 90%, the highest in the world.

Francis I was wondering if you and your friends ride bicycles? Well I suppose you do or you might not be here!

[francismacomber]

Yeah, I have recently gotten really into mountain biking again, and will be getting a roadie this spring to do my commuting to work on. Honestly, not that many of my Mennonite friends from back home are really into bikes, a few though. One is totally car and phone and computer free. I commend him for it, too.

Don't get me wrong though, I didn't mean to misprepresent my hometown or myself, other than the rediculous lawns you cant tell it from any other town of 800 people. :) My wife and I try to live like Mennonites, but we certainly drive cars, are information and electronic addicts like everyone else, etc. We even drink alcohol, which is a big no-no in the church of my youth. Our emphasis is on the smaller level, not on communal living, but rather on making small decisions that fit in with our worldview. For example, trying not to support companies that act immorally in our view or promote sweat shops, eating more simply, trying to be politically aware, the list goes on. That isnt traditionally Mennonite, but neither are we. My hometown would have been, but it wasn't for us...

The reason I mention it is the fact that I think that the car-free lifestyle at its best fits really well into such a view of the world. At its worst, there are a few of my friends who have tried to it prove a point- usually to themselves. If its based on egotistical motives, it isn't helping anyone. If its part of a larger way of living, it has the power to change the world. Im not perfect (far from it, in fact) and I would NEVER insunuate my worldview is the best or the most effective... just throwing it out there.

There is my soapbox for the day, sorry for all who had to bear it...

Im enjoying this. There are larger issues inherent in the discussion-

[JohnBrooking]

I'm liking this discussion, too. Glad to have you with us, Francis!

Here's something that's not clear to me from the discussion; it's only been implied so far. For the Amish who do not ride bikes, what exactly is the reasoning? Are bikes too technological? If so, is that due to what it takes to manufacture them (presumably the manufacturing process is beyond what could be done within the community), or do they feel that too much maintenance is required? Or, as someone else implied, is it more sociological; it would allow too much freedom of movement, or is too individualistic a mode of transportation?

Realizing that the answer will differ from community to community, and that no one here is actually speaking for them, I'd nonetheless be interested in hearing your speculations! :)

BTW: I spent a few months in college volunteering for Habitat for Humanity in Americus, GA, and met some wonderful Mennonites among the other volunteers. I think it's wonderful how their faith is so fully integrated with and informs their progressive social and political views and activity.

[francismacomber]

Just my speculation, but I don't think its the technology of bikes, or computers, or cars per se that they avoid. As I understand it, some of the Amish were very into computers for their manufacturing, until some found out they can be used for games. I think it comes from the underlying notion that a person doesn't necassarily deserve personal happiness. Maybe "hope" or "joy" in the Lord, at the most. The path to salvation is hard work. "Leisure time" is the word they (and my grandparents) use all of the time. Idle hands or leisure time is where evil comes from, so they see it. If something increases efficiency, then it must inherently evil to some degree. Thats why they go for oxen instead of tractors. If bikes are more efficient than walking, or less traditional than horse and buggy- maybe they see it as some sort of hedonism. It's hard for me to explain, because its hard for me to rationalize, although some remnants of that thought pattern certainly still exist in me and in the town I grew up in.

Another caveat, my only knowledge of the Amish is second hand through family members or is anectodotal, so take it only as that...

can anyone correct me if I am wrong here?

[ViciousCycle]

Another caveat, my only knowledge of the Amish is second hand through family members or is anectodotal, so take it only as that... can anyone correct me if I am wrong here?

A good book to read on the Amish is The Riddle of Amish Culture by Donald B. Kraybill.

One key to understanding the Amish is that, in recent decades, while many small farms have been disappearing in the United States, young Amish farmers have been starting new small farms. To call their methods inefficient is not quite accurate. They are able to efficiently perform small-scale farming. What has hurt small scale farmers in recent decades is the fact that it's extremely inefficent to perform industrial-style farming on a small scale. A lot of the industrial tractors and 'modern' farm equipment are so expensive that it's extremely inefficient to use them on small farms. The equipment and the fuel and the chemical herbicides/pesticides can easily dwarf the proceeds that you will earn.

[Roody]

A good book to read on the Amish is The Riddle of Amish Culture by Donald B. Kraybill.

One key to understanding the Amish is that, in recent decades, while many small farms have been disappearing in the United States, young Amish farmers have been starting new small farms. To call their methods inefficient is not quite accurate. They are able to efficiently perform small-scale farming. What has hurt small scale farmers in recent decades is the fact that it's extremely inefficent to perform industrial-style farming on a small scale. A lot of the industrial tractors and 'modern' farm equipment are so expensive that it's extremely inefficient to use them on small farms. The equipment and the fuel and the chemical herbicides/pesticides can easily dwarf the proceeds that you will earn.
This is a very interesting analysis.

I guess that most of us carfree people would be interested in "tractorfree" farms. My sister worked on a small organic produce farm that was economically viable. They used golf carts for some transport needs. Bikes would have been better!

[folder fanatic]

While I never had any (known) contact with the Amish or Mennonites, my father was born in Ohio, where there is a rather large communities of these religious groups. My father was speaking about his childhood and youth in the 1920's and early 1930's before he left his home forever. He told me that where he is from, people mostly rode horses, not bicycles since it was a rural area. So I do not think it is a religious reason, more of a practical one. Mountain bikes did not exist then.