Nazis, Jim Crow, Bike Lanes and the NYPD

[Daily Commute]

I'm sick of Nazi and Jim Crow analogies to US cops and bike lanes. I'm a skeptic about bike lanes and a strong proponent of riding in traffic. But as much as I dislike many "segregated" facilities, there is no comparison between facing a fine for riding outside of a glass-strewn, poorly engineered bike lane and being rounded up with millions of others, corralled into cattle cars, and then being gassed or burned alive.

There is also no comparison between being abused by a NYPD cop and being shot by the Gestapo. Do you think the Nazis let Jews sue the police in court? Do you think the Nazis let the Jews hire layers to gather videotaped evidence to defend against the citations?

You demean the seriousness of the Holocaust and the true evil of the Nazis by making such specious arguments. You also lose most or all of your credibility with reasonable people.

Setting aside the arguments about the depravity of the analogies, one flaw in the argument is that assertion that discrimination and segregation are always wrong. Sometimes (rarely, I think) it is appropriate to separate cyclists from automobile traffic. The American Interstate system is an example. The Jim Crow argument doesn't help bike lane skeptics explain why any given segregated system is bad.

So please, fight about the issues. Complain or support bike lanes. Complain about or support your local police. But leave the Nazis and Jim Crow out of it.

[Helmet Head]

What about lima beans? Am I allowed to reference lima beans in order to make my point without being accused of comparing bike lanes to lima beans?

To someone who doesn't care for lima beans, rating one better than another still doesn't make the "better" ones acceptable. Same thing with bike lanes. To a lima bean disliker, all lima beans taste yucky. All bike lanes, on "shared" roads, convey the message, even the A+ ones, that cyclists should stay out of the way of cagers. Being a "good" lima bean doesn't make it taste good. Being a "good" bike lane doesn't make it not convey the anti-cycling message.

The reason Jim Crow laws and Nazis are used in these analogies, rather than lima beans, is because the former are more universally recognized as negative concepts.

No offense to lima beans - they just seem to be disliked by more people than most other foods; I could have used liver or brussel sprouts just as easily - the point just wouldn't be made with ice cream.

[seely]

Sorry, but lima beans didn't kill anyone's grandfather, burn people in ovens, or lynch people, so that analogy is about as stupid as they come. To compare a vegetable (lentil, I suppose) that people have a "dislike" for to something as horrible as racist law or a soldier that took part in a genocide is obscene. There are other words that convey the same idealology as "Nazi" without the connection to the holocaust. A good generic substitute would be "facist" as it merely is someone of a facist idealology.

[Daily Commute]

Lima beans, liver, and brussel sprouts may be disliked, but they are not evil. Many bike lanes are examples of bad policy and bad engineering, but they are notevil.

[Treespeed]

This looks like it should go very well.

[Helmet Head]

To compare a vegetable (lentil, I suppose) that people have a "dislike" for to something as horrible as racist law or a soldier that took part in a genocide is obscene.
Now I understand why analogies are almost always used in IQ tests, and how half the population manages to score an IQ of less than 100...

Yes, such a comparison would be obscene. If you think I made such a comparison, I suggest you don't take any IQ tests...

[Helmet Head]

Lima beans, liver, and brussel sprouts may be disliked, but they are not evil. Many bike lanes are examples of bad policy and bad engineering, but they are notevil.
Yes, bike lanes are not evil in the way that Nazis were evil.

But bike lanes are not vegetables, or lentils, either.

So can I make the statement I made about bike lanes and lima beans without being accused of comparing bike lanes to lentils, or not?

[genec]

Yes, bike lanes are not evil in the way that Nazis were evil.

But bike lanes are not vegetables, or lentils, either.

So can I make the statement I made about bike lanes and lima beans without being accused of comparing bike lanes to lentils, or not?

About all you can really state is: "some folks don't like bike lanes, just like some folks don't like lima beans... " The reasoning for either thought is simply in the mind of the beholder.

[Roody]

When I first saw the title of this thread I thought it was a troll set up for that professor who's been studying us.

But I don't care for nazi and jimcrow analogies either. They are emotional hot buttons overstate the case and distract from the real issue, whatever it is.

I did score well over the 50th percentile in a IQ quiz I seen on the internet so I ain't no illiterate.

[Helmet Head]

About all you can really state is: "some folks don't like bike lanes, just like some folks don't like lima beans... " The reasoning for either thought is simply in the mind of the beholder.
Do you agree that at least to someone who doesn't care for lima beans (spits 'em out!), there is no such thing as a "good" lima bean, even though some may be better (according to size, freshness, cleanliness, firmness, etc.) than others?

The point I'm trying to make is that just because some members of a class might be seen as "better" than other members of the same class, that doesn't mean any of them are necessarily "good".

That point holds whether we're talking about lima beans, death camps, piles of dog poop, or just about anything that can be classified in one group, including bike lanes.

[Roody]

Do you agree that at least to someone who doesn't care for lima beans (spits 'em out!), there is no such thing as a "good" lima bean, even though some may be better (according to size, freshness, cleanliness, firmness, etc.) than others?

The point I'm trying to make is that just because some members of a class might be seen as "better" than other members of the same class, that doesn't mean any of them are necessarily "good".

That point holds whether we're talking about lima beans, death camps, piles of dog poop, or just about anything that can be classified in one group, including bike lanes.
It seems like you're spending more time defending the analogy than defending the actual case. Doesn't that in itself mean it's an ineffective analogy?

[Helmet Head]

My attempts to defend the actual case without using any analogies have been ignored.
My attempts to use the analogies have been derailed into discussions about the inappropriateness of the analogies, forcing me to have to defend them.
I'd much rather spend my time discussing the actual case, back in the original "bike lanes are B+" thread.

[genec]

Do you agree that at least to someone who doesn't care for lima beans (spits 'em out!), there is no such thing as a "good" lima bean, even though some may be better (according to size, freshness, cleanliness, firmness, etc.) than others?

The point I'm trying to make is that just because some members of a class might be seen as "better" than other members of the same class, that doesn't mean any of them are necessarily "good".


Only in the mind of the beholder... in otherwords, using your same logic, while some individuals may find lima beans distasteful, that is only their opinion, while the medical or dietary community may indeed find that lima beans are quite good for you.

The same holds true of bike lanes, while some individuals may find them quite distasteful, their utility may be one that is good for other individuals.

You have your right to believe that you do not like bike lanes, but you do not have the right to impose your beliefs on others. Just as your diet may never include lima beans, others may find them quite tasty.

I for instance happen to like both broccoli and brussels sprouts... Our 41st president did not like broccoli... did that give him the right to ban all broccoli?

[galen_52657]

Not to spoil the succotash or vegetable medley.....

But the term 'Nazi' has morphed over time to become a generic term of derision used toward anyone whom exhibits undue control over others, i.e. 'the soup Nazi' on Seinfeld.

The term 'Jim Crow' seems less bandied about.

I am not saying this is a good thing, only that the barn door has been open for some time.

[chipcom]

This looks like it should go very well.

To quote one of my favorite BF members, 'Oh no'. :)

[chipcom]

Yes, bike lanes are not evil in the way that Nazis were evil.

But bike lanes are not vegetables, or lentils, either.

So can I make the statement I made about bike lanes and lima beans without being accused of comparing bike lanes to lentils, or not?

I take offense, my grandfather was a vegetable. :p

[Roody]

I was a vegetable too for a while. I think it was back in the late 60s.....

[DCCommuter]

I'm just glad that everyone is home from vacation and back at their desks, being productive. It was dull here for a while.

[2wheeledsoul]

Sufferin' succatash!
Not to rub your rhubarb, but I happen to like lima beans.
And here in Houston, there are no bike lanes. There's only cars doublepark free lanes, when they're not being broken glass, dead animal, and garbage collection lanes.

Now the cops are pretty cool to cyclists here, yet there's never been a CM here as far as I can remember. Go figure that.

[rachmiel99]

For the record . . . I'm no fan of Seinfeld, and the Soup Nazi was not the only bit that I found disrespectful . . .

Meanwhile: Next time you think about making a Nazi analogy, imagine you're sitting next to a death camp survivor.

And then ask yourself: would I still say that?

[dobber]

But the term 'Nazi' has morphed over time to become a generic term of derision used toward anyone whom exhibits undue control over others, i.e. 'the soup Nazi' on Seinfeld.

Playing the Nazi analogy just illustrates the intellectual laziness of the user. And like the white belt and fixed gear bicycle, it's the mark of hipness.

[Daily Commute]

Setting aside the depravity of most Nazi analogies, do you think citing the Nazis will persuade anyone to agree with you? It seems much, much more likely to alienate your audience.

HH, I think your passionate opposition to bike lanes helps keep this forum interesting an useful. But you really, really hurt the cause when you let your rhetoric get too hot. Why not just argue that segregating cyclists from other traffic on any road is bad policy because it decreases our legitimacy on the road? (And then back it up with other arguments.)

My phrasing may not be the most eloquent statement, and some people will disagree with it, but it won't immediately alienate the very people you want to persuade.

[chipcom]

Setting aside the depravity of most Nazi analogies, do you think citing the Nazis will persuade anyone to agree with you? It seems much, much more likely to alienate your audience.

HH, I think your passionate opposition to bike lanes helps keep this forum interesting an useful. But you really, really hurt the cause when you let your rhetoric get too hot. Why not just argue that segregating cyclists from other traffic on any road is bad policy because it decreases our legitimacy on the road? (And then back it up with other arguments.)

My phrasing may not be the most eloquent statement, and some people will disagree with it, but it won't immediately alienate the very people you want to persuade.

It amazes me how some people get all indignant at one disparaging word, then in the next breath use another disparaging word that is somehow more acceptable. Make up your minds to either refrain from all such words or just shut the F up about the words others choose to use. Bunch o freakin hypocrites.

[SamHouston]

Think of the children! Won't someone please think of the children!"

Yeah I discredit an argument to some degree internally when lazy and disparate analogys are used willy-nilly. Fortunately I'm all growed up and won't allow reading such things to lessen my regard for the lessons of history.

People say insensitive things all the time, deal with it because setting restrictions on such things anyplace but your house is the sort of slippery slope the unfortunates fell victim to.

This is a public forum.

[Daily Commute]

It amazes me how some people get all indignant at one disparaging word, then in the next breath use another disparaging word that is somehow more acceptable. Make up your minds to either refrain from all such words or just shut the F up about the words others choose to use. Bunch o freakin hypocrites.
The word "depraved" is hyperbole when describing a general pro- or anti- VC or bike lane arguments, but the word fits when describing an argument that compares puts mandatory bike lane use on the same moral plane as mass murder. It isn't hypocracy to use a strong word where a strong word is appropriate.

I hope I have never described a pro-bike-lane or anti-VC argument as "depraved." Other than Nazi/Jim Crow analogies, the only time I remember using such strong language is when people have advocated raping drivers who injure cyclists. If someone shows that I'm wrong my prior posts, I'll offer an apology.



Think of the children! Won't someone please think of the children!"

Yeah I discredit an argument to some degree internally when lazy and disparate analogys are used willy-nilly. Fortunately I'm all growed up and won't allow reading such things to lessen my regard for the lessons of history.

People say insensitive things all the time, deal with it because setting restrictions on such things anyplace but your house is the sort of slippery slope the unfortunates fell victim to.

This is a public forum.
Yes, it's a public forum (subject to the mods, of course). People have the right to use strong language, but people also have the right to criticize that strong language. That's not censorship, that's debate.

[SamHouston]

Yes, it's a public forum (subject to the mods, of course). People have the right to use strong language, but people also have the right to criticize that strong language. That's not censorship, that's debate.

Hey friend this is your thread about how to debate others without offending you. Are you sure you wanted to be the first one to use the word "censorship"?

Debate = thick skin 2 win

everything else = sidetracked by hyperbole.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

My phrasing may not be the most eloquent statement, and some people will disagree with it, but it won't immediately alienate the very people you want to persuade.

It amazes me how some people get all indignant at one disparaging word, then in the next breath use another disparaging word that is somehow more acceptable. Make up your minds to either refrain from all such words or just shut the F up about the words others choose to use. Bunch o freakin hypocrites.
Yep, for winning over converts, stick to words/phrases and ideas that DC approves and thinks are just dandy; i.e., "cager", segregation analogies, or obstructionist rhetoric based on obtuse interpretations of traffic law.

[Daily Commute]

Hey friend this is your thread about how to debate others without offending you. Are you sure you wanted to be the first one to use the word "censorship"?

Debate = thick skin 2 win

everything else = sidetracked by hyperbole.
It's not about offending me. It's about being offensive, wrong, and counter-productive. I don't think the evil of the Holocaust should be compared to such pedestrian concerns. That diminishes, albeit only by a little, the evil that the Nazis perpetrated.

I also hope I've done better than just say, "It offends me, stop." I hope I've explained why the Nazi analogies are wrong and why they hurt the cause of cyclist advocacy. If I haven't, that's my fault.

Jon Stewart had it right (I'm paraphrasing): "You know who was like Nazis? The Nazis were like the Nazis."

[I-Like-To-Bike]

It's not about offending me. It's about being offensive, wrong, and counter-productive. I don't think the evil of the Holocaust should be attacked by such pedestrian comparisons. I also hope I've done better than just say, "It offends me, stop." I hope I've explained why the Nazi analogies are wrong and why they hurt the cause of cyclist advocacy. If I haven't, that's my fault.
Of course such analogies should stop. It is obvious that the current user of such offensive terms/analogies on this forum is an insensitive clod who doesn't have a clue about making a persuasive argument. So why insist on boring the rest of the forum with repeated hypocritical advice about using only offensive, insulting terms that meet your personal standards?

[galen_52657]

"You know who was like Nazis? The Nazis were like the Nazis."

Actually, there were and are a lot of people like the Nazis. We still have skinheads/neo Nazis. There have been pogroms perpetrated against different peoples/religions sanctioned by the State since the beginning of time. Recently, 'Ethnic Cleansing' comes to mind. The thought process is the same. The only difference is one of scale.

[Keith99]

Actually, there were and are a lot of people like the Nazis. We still have skinheads/neo Nazis. There have been pogroms perpetrated against different peoples/religions sanctioned by the State since the beginning of time. Recently, 'Ethnic Cleansing' comes to mind. The thought process is the same. The only difference is one of scale.

I think this hits on a second reason on why Nazi charges are so offensive. It iss not just the evil, it is that the same evil still exists.

BTW seperate facilities are not always bad. I for one an happy that where horses are common that there are seperate drinking facilities for people and horses.

[scarry]

Not to spoil the succotash or vegetable medley.....

But the term 'Nazi' has morphed over time to become a generic term of derision used toward anyone whom exhibits undue control over others, i.e. 'the soup Nazi' on Seinfeld.

The term 'Jim Crow' seems less bandied about.

I am not saying this is a good thing, only that the barn door has been open for some time.

My buddy calls me the "Ski Nazi".

[chipcom]

People have the right to use strong language, but people also have the right to criticize that strong language. That's not censorship, that's debate.

My problem is with people who use strong language, then turn around and complain about others using other strong language. Hard to earn debating points when you pull the old 'do as I say, not as I do'.

[FLBandit]

Jim Crow was a Nazi?

[Helmet Head]

I never made an analogy or comparison with Nazis or camps. Please stop saying that I did.

All I did was use Nazi death camps as an example of evil. Anyone have a problem with that?

What I did was point out that being able to "grade" something with a "B+" that belongs to a particular class relative to other members of that class, doesn't mean that that member of the class, or any members of that class, are "good" outside of this relative measure. To illustrate how meaningless such within-class relative ratings are, I made this point by showing how it applied in the most extreme example of a "bad" class that I could think of: Nazi camps.

And, yes, I would make the same point with a Holocaust survivor sitting next to me, because using the camps as an example of the most extreme evil I can imagine does not diminish their evilness.

[sbhikes]

You did to make a comparison with Nazis and camps. And you just made it again.

[timmhaan]

you can grade or measure anything you want, but that doesn't mean it reflects real life. comparing bike lane policy to lima beans just will not get the same reaction as comparing it to the nazis. sometimes you have to step away from the academic meaning of what an analogy is and think about what connotation a word actually has. truth of the matter is that the actions of the nazis are still active in people's minds and throwing the word around casually is likely to offend someone. i think that's what the OP is getting at.

[KrisPistofferson]

This thread was doomed from the beginning.

[red house]

doomed? .This thread has got it all; lima beans, bike lanes, nazis.. this thread is just getting warmed up imo.

[Helmet Head]

you can grade or measure anything you want, but that doesn't mean it reflects real life. comparing bike lane policy to lima beans just will not get the same reaction as comparing it to the nazis. sometimes you have to step away from the academic meaning of what an analogy is and think about what connotation a word actually has. truth of the matter is that the actions of the nazis are still active in people's minds and throwing the word around casually is likely to offend someone. i think that's what the OP is getting at.
I will not participate in a forum where I have to assume the other members are as stupid as you seem to be asking me to assume that they are.

And I did not throw the word around casually. I used it intentionally, as an example of the most evil "class" I could think of. Got a better one?


You did to make a comparison with Nazis and camps.
Diane, can you recognize and appreciate the difference between making a comparison that includes a reference to Nazis and camps (as an example of extreme evil) and a comparison that compares something to Nazis or camps (which would arguably diminish their evilness), or not?

Whether you realize it or not, you are all taking me to task for simply referencing Nazis, even in the context of acknowledging their extreme evil.

I'm disappointed in all of you.

[Hawkear]

No, Serge, we're disappointed in you.

What is your intent of giving examples of evil things and then juxtapositioning them with discussion of bike lanes?

It's solely to appeal to our emotions and fears, and to associate those feelings with bike lanes. If you want to discuss the merits or downfalls of bike lanes, do so, but don't treat us like dumb animals that can be scared into following you. It's disrespectful.

[timmhaan]

I will not participate in a forum where I have to assume the other members are as stupid as you seem to be asking me to assume that they are.


remember your sig:

"I post my opinions and ideas here to get serious evaluation and criticism from my peers. But please do not waste everyone's time with baseless and/or frivolous expressions of disagreement. Reason and logic, expressed politely and respectfully, are the currency of productive debate. Thanks."


edit: so, i'd ask you not to call me or the other forum members stupid. and i'd agrue that you're engaging in "frivolous expressions of disagreement". you're arguing semantics here rather than what the thread is really about.

[alanbikehouston]

Why would anyone expect Helmet Head to stop pretending bike lanes are as dangerous to the human race as mass murder? HH has never cared about truth, facts or logic. He posts to be as offensive as possible, and to stir up as much turmoil as possible. Other members of the Forums COULD chose to simply ignore any thread he pollutes, but noooo....

[Satyr]

By the way, the lima bean is a legume (Order Fabales, genus Phaseolus). The lentil is also a legume (Order Fabales, genus Lens). But a lima bean is not a lentil.

[Helmet Head]

No, Serge, we're disappointed in you.

What is your intent of giving examples of evil things and then juxtapositioning them with discussion of bike lanes?

It's solely to appeal to our emotions and fears, and to associate those feelings with bike lanes. If you want to discuss the merits or downfalls of bike lanes, do so, but don't treat us like dumb animals that can be scared into following you. It's disrespectful.
The fact that you (and you're not the only one) think that the reason I used Nazis as an example of extreme evil in order to associate those feelings with bike lanes is what disappoints me about you. I did not compare bike lanes to Nazis or camps, and I did not intend any such comparison, or association of feeling. I was simply making a very abstract point about the meaninglessness of relative ratings within a given class, and I used Nazi camps as an extreme example to illustrate what I meant. Any association between these camps and bike lanes is of your own creation.




I will not participate in a forum where I have to assume the other members are as stupid as you seem to be asking me to assume that they are.

remember your sig:

The intended implication of my statement, which I thought was obvious, was that since I continue to participate in this forum, I do not consider the membership to be stupid. Do you find that to be disrespectful?

[Helmet Head]

Why would anyone expect Helmet Head to stop pretending bike lanes are as dangerous to the human race as mass murder? HH has never cared about truth, facts or logic. He posts to be as offensive as possible, and to stir up as much turmoil as possible. Other members of the Forums COULD chose to simply ignore any thread he pollutes, but noooo....
Please do not waste everyone's time with baseless and/or frivolous expressions of disagreement.

[Helmet Head]

By the way, the lima bean is a legume (Order Fabales, genus Phaseolus). The lentil is also a legume (Order Fabales, genus Lens). But a lima bean is not a lentil.
Thank you.

[Hawkear]

The fact that you (and you're not the only one) think that the reason I used Nazis as an example of extreme evil in order to associate those feelings with bike lanes is what disappoints me about you. I did not compare bike lanes to Nazis or camps, and I did not intend any such comparison, or association of feeling. I was simply making a very abstract point about the meaninglessness of relative ratings within a given class, and I used Nazi camps as an extreme example to illustrate what I meant. Any association between these camps and bike lanes is of your own creation.You don't need to bring in unrelated examples to state your point. The only possible consequence of bringing such polarizing concepts into a discussion is the evokation of emotions. And guess what, that's all it did.

[Helmet Head]

Fine, Hawkear. Why don't you show me how the point can be made without bringing in such an example.

[sbhikes]

Look HH, you ought to know by now that you cannot use the word Nazi within the same paragraphs of any other point you are trying to make without the appearance--intended or not--of the two having a relationship to each other.