Track Cycling - Best glue for tubulars on the track?

I use continental glue for road use, never had a problem.
I am also usually not on a 45 degree bank on the road.
Someone suggested using something stronger for the track, like fasttack.
What kind of glue do you use? Any other general suggestions for
gluing tubulars for the track?

Shellac

Vittoria RED , hard to get..classic stuff.

Panasonic or Soyo Japanese glue awesome stuff.

Better than Vittoria clear, Hutchinson and Continental.

S/F,
CEYA!

I have used Continental and Vittoria Mastik clear glues exclusively for the track and have had no problems with them. IME traditional hard setting track glues - like Shellac - are hard to find over here in the UK and as a result most trackies I know use regular 'clear' glues like Conti, Vittoria and tubasti without any problems.
I think that more important than which glue is used is how well the tubs are glued to the rim; no glue - traditional or not - is going to make up for a poorly glued tub.

These wheels are being used on a number of tracks in the UK, indoors and out, with lengths and bankings varying from 400m/26 deg to 143m/46deg. Races a mixture of endurance and srpints, though I'm no match sprinter.

Stretch the tyre on a rim first. Clean yr rim with acetone. Build the glue up on a new rim in thin layers - I usually put 3 layers on new rims, and 2 on the tub tape. Allow to cure for preferably 24hrs+ before using.
The site below has links to some research comparing the strength of various different tub glues - it also repeats the tests for the same glue/tyres on carbon vs aluminium rims. The bottom line is that Conti glue was best on alloy rims, Vittoria on carbon: http://www.engr.ku.edu/~kuktl/index.html

I'm considering trying the Tufo Extreme tub tape, as this is claimed to be suitable for track use and looks top be less hassle than using glue. Has anyone here had any experience of this tape? If so, please share (eg what rim type, what tyre, what sort of track etc).

Cheers!

mickster

I'm considering trying the Tufo Extreme tub tape, as this is claimed to be suitable for track use and looks top be less hassle than using glue. Has anyone here had any experience of this tape? If so, please share (eg what rim type, what tyre, what sort of track etc).

Cheers!

mickster

I just put the tufo tape on my fiamme red label aloy rims with tufo s3 tires. I like them, it's much less messy and it looks cleaner. I am going to ride them on Piccolo Velodrome (paved, outdoor) tonight or tomorrow for the first time so I will let you know then. From riding them around town a bit though they feel very solid and I have no complaints.

Withnail

Good stuff - pull some quick chops down off the banking and let me know how the tape holds up :) .
Seriously, I'm sure it's fine - have read elsewhere of others using it without any probs.

I've used the Tufo S3s (Pros and Lites) and have been really happy with them - the Lites were a best-race-only tyre for me as they only lasted about a season, but both types gripped well on wooden and concrete tracks and mounted nice and straight.

mickster

I've used the Tufo tape on both traditional tubular (conti sprinters)
and on tufo road elites. both on traditional box rims (gp4 and gel330s)
the only problem I had with the tufo tape is clean up after removing the
tire is more of a hassle than with tubasti or any other traditional glue.
The tufo tape left a sticky gummy mess on the rims that did not come
off easily.

Marty

stronger glue for the track, that is absurd. Think about it, on the track you use the banks to make turns so you never really lean the bike over and put tons of pressure the tyres laterally. On the road is where you corner at high speed on flat roads so the bike is much more leaned over and tyre would be more prone to roll off at any stage.

stronger glue for the track, that is absurd. Think about it, on the track you use the banks to make turns so you never really lean the bike over and put tons of pressure the tyres laterally. On the road is where you corner at high speed on flat roads so the bike is much more leaned over and tyre would be more prone to roll off at any stage.

Nah, it's not. Think of the G's when you swing up from a turn on a velodrome, or the force on the tyre when you race around the bends of a flat track. I've seen riders roll incorrectly stuck on tyres on the track. It's a MAJOR faux pas. Plus, if you use something tacky like road glue, the tyre moves around. You don't want that happening.

flat track sure, but velodrome swing-ups versus downhill at 80 km/h in a corner? I can't imagine the force on the track being higher. Incorrectly glued tyres will roll on anything but having to use a certain type of glue for a track tyre is bogus. If it stays on your road wheel under severe punishment, it should sure stay on your track wheel with the same glue and application method.

I'd still argue that there is more pressures on the tyre on a velodrome than on the road.

I thought of another reason you want the best glue possible on the track - in hindsight probably the main one. Should have thought of it before.

Blowouts. You don't want the tyre rolling off when you puncture. Rolling is a possiblity with road glue, coz it's always tacky. Near impossible with Shellac or track specific glue. I punctured in a warm up at the top of the banking at Launceston once, with a 100 riders on the track. I'm was grateful the tyres were stuck on with shellac.!!

yeah, blowouts are not good anywhere, least on a banked track.

If you blowout on a corner in a crit, you're gonna end up on your arse anyway, whether the tyre stays on or not. On the straights, it doesn't matter one way or the other.

At least if the tyre stays on the rim on a velodrome you and everyone else still has half a chance!

Here is some tire adhesion testing for various glues.

http://www.bsn.com/Cycling/articles/cements.html

Swing up the steep banking quickly and there is lots of force trying to roll a tire off. I've used FasTak, Vittoria Mastik One, and Panaracer-all work just fine. The smaller tubes are easier to travel with and less likely to atttract attention from TSA et al, who will confiscate these "dangerous substances".


-Warren

so in those results (if I read them right), Fasttack isn't all that good comparitively when all I read about is how hard it sticks tyres on?

Yes, but how good does it need to be, or how hard is it to apply or how much does it cost? I've done about 350 criteriums and near 100 days on the track with Fastak and never had a problem, so...

Perhaps, of greater interest is some recent testing that shows that power requirements are slightly lower if the tire is more firmly attached to the rim. Testing showed Vittoria was better than Fastak by 10-20(?) watts. IF this matters, then Vittoria could be the best choice. $2.95/tube at Excel Sports and Nashbar. :-)



-Warren

I just put the tufo tape on my fiamme red label aloy rims with tufo s3 tires. I like them, it's much less messy and it looks cleaner. I am going to ride them on Piccolo Velodrome (paved, outdoor) tonight or tomorrow for the first time so I will let you know then. From riding them around town a bit though they feel very solid and I have no complaints.

Withnail - Did ya get to try the Tufo tape out?? How did ya get on?

mickster

The best and strongest stuff I use on the track is a japaenese rim cement called soyo. I got it at my lbs cheaper than this, but if you want, you can try this place: http://fixedgear.americancyclery.com/Details/Rim_Cement/1

Also, the LBS that I bought it at has a website and might be able to send it out to ya.
www.threesports.com. Hopefully thats some help.

Oh yeah, the only downside to soyo rim cement is that is HIGHLY toxic and you must use it in very well ventilated area.

I'm with the first response....shellack. I did a pair of road wheels for a very large man with the stuff. The steps to prep the rim are the same, several small layers, but instead of putting a layer on the rim and tire letting it sit for 5 min and installing it you fire a layer on the rim and quickly install it and start centering it. Its somthing only wrenches who have mastered tubular tires should do. If I ever needed to do a pair of my own wheels I'd pay my shops head mechanic to do it for me hahahaha.

J

Shellac used to be used by the 6-day pros. There's a good book, probably no longer in print, called "Bicycle Mechanics" by Steve Snowling, who was Tony Doyle's mechanic. It's got the best description of how to glue on a tire using shellac that I've found. It's quite an involved procedure. You need to start with a new rim, that you first cork (put cork in the spoke nipple wells, so the wheel already has to be built), then you score the rim (scratch into it with a sharp tool), then apply daily layers of shellac for about a week, then let it sit for a month before applying shellac to the tire and putting it all together. I've never used it, but I understand the tire comes off very clean. If you need to replace a tire, you can set fire to the shellac on the rim to soften it.

Too much hassle for me. I just use 3M Fast Tack trim cement. Not all auto parts stores have it, and most counter guys will have no idea what it is. One layer on the rim, one layer on the tire, wait about ten minutes, then mount the tire. I suggest wearing latex gloves, and expect the gloves to rip all to hell during the process, especially if you're mounting a Tufo or any other Czech-made tire, even if it's been stretching on a dry rim for months. After 24 hours, the tire will not come off unless you pry into it with a screwdriver. Not recommended for tubs on the road, as it'll take longer to get that tire off than replacing the tube on a clincher, but great for track. I've used it for the past 30 years and (knock on wood) never rolled a tire, even after blowouts.

- Luis

you know, ther was some discussion about Fasttack a while back and how they had changed their formula or something along those lines. I cannot locate it, but if anyone can, please repost.

It shouldn't change the use of it on the track, but it had to do with heating the glue up and it losing its adhesive qualities to some degree (meaning involuntary dismount of the tire). I would think this applies to braked wheels as opposed to non-braked ones used in velodromes.

Also - any word back on direct tufo tape experience from BF members? Mickster had a good suggestion regarding chops and the true test of a glue...

I've probably only put in a good 50 or so hours of riding on the tufo tape, with no problems so far. I haven't changed a tire either so I can't comment on that but I will once I change them.

Edit: I did quite a few chops up and down the banks and have even ridden them pretty hard on the street and they've held up just fine.

Here's a thread on Fast Tack and its reformulation. A couple of us finally dug into the stories and at least came up with a little info. Hope this helps.

http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16490

']you know, ther was some discussion about Fasttack a while back and how they had changed their formula or something along those lines. I cannot locate it, but if anyone can, please repost.

It shouldn't change the use of it on the track, but it had to do with heating the glue up and it losing its adhesive qualities to some degree (meaning involuntary dismount of the tire). I would think this applies to braked wheels as opposed to non-braked ones used in velodromes.


[165]
I've remember similar talk about a change in Fastack's formulation but can't find the discussions at the mo. I recall the alleged problem being to do with a change in the solvent used which was supposed to affect the solvent used to attach the basetape to some brands of tyres. People claimed they'd seen warnings from 3M to this effect advising against using it to glue tubs. Again, this is all only heresay as I don't have anything about it to hand.

TBH, I've never used Fastack myself (although lots of my buddies have - and have been fine) as it was always easier to buy a pot of Conti or Mastik 1 and they last for ages and work well, so never felt need to try it. All the change of formula rumours just made it seem less hassle to use something specifically designed for the job.

One resource I have got is at here (http://www.engr.ku.edu/ktl/bicycle/bicycle.html#bposter) which tests a bunch of different glues - including Fastack - on both alu and carbon rims. Bottom line there was that Fastack wasn't as good a performer as most other glues anyway, though from the numbers of people who have used it without probs its probably 'good enough' even if not the best.

HTH

mickster

withnail
Thx for the update. Good to hear this from someones direct experience rather than just hearsay. I'm going to give the Tufo Extreme tape a try at some point - probably when my pot of Mastik 1 finally dries / runs out :)

mickster

Josh,

I recently read a discussion on Fastack and the gist of it was that the formula
has changed about a dozen times in the past few years (EPA intervention?).
Fastack has a habit of causing failure at the base tape, one person stated
that if the tires were ridden in the wet the tape absorbs water and eventually
causes the failure of the glue. Another person ventured that the fastack soaks
into the base tape and causes the eventual deterioration of the latex/glue holding
the tape to the tire.
There are also 2 types of fastack, one for trim and the other for vinyl roof repair,
the roof repair stuff will not work in any circumstances. I've been looking for
this thread but can't find it, will post it when I find it.

marty

The best and strongest stuff I use on the track is a japaenese rim cement called soyo. I got it at my lbs cheaper than this, but if you want, you can try this place: http://fixedgear.americancyclery.com/Details/Rim_Cement/1

Also, the LBS that I bought it at has a website and might be able to send it out to ya.
www.threesports.com. Hopefully thats some help.

Oh yeah, the only downside to soyo rim cement is that is HIGHLY toxic and you must use it in very well ventilated area.


SOYO and PANASONIC is the same stuff.

Yes they are the only good glue left.

Vittoria ,

Bring the Red glue back.

S/F,
CEYA!

What's up with the other glues in yr experience?
Interestingly the study I posted a link to earlier in this thread didn't particularly rate Vittoria Gutta (I'm assuming that's the red Vittoria you mean) - it performed less well than the currently available Conti and Vittoria Mastik 1 glues in their roll off/adhesion tests. Plus it makes a more noticeable mess of yr sidewalls if any splurges out when mounting the tyre :eek:

mickster

If you know how to mount them no mess and Vittoria's Mastik and Conti is ok doesn't not hold up well after remounting after a flat. This applies to Hutchinson as well. The only ones I use now is Panasonic and Soyo.

I go by personal experience and what was used when I was racing. That glue held up alot. I used it for 15 yrs messengering in NYC Winter,Spring,Summer and Fall.


S/F,
CEYA!

Some of the glues mentioned here, such as the Clement gutta and the red Vittoria, haven't been made for a while. A few years ago it looked like tubulars were just plain dying out, and glues started doing the same. Those two in particular were among the worst at melting when rims heated up while braking, and they weren't really the best anyway, so no loss as far as I'm concerned. Now tubulars are a lot better, carbon tubular rims are hot, and there aren't enough glue options around. A couple of us have been working on trying to concoct a better glue for track.

The Soyo is a very strong glue, made for the Japanese market and especially for track. In the US and parts of Europe, there's a feeling that you should be able to snap a tire off the rim when you flat and get going within a couple minutes. Thankfully that misperception is dying out, because it must have led to some rolled tires (the folks who want to have the least-hassle tubular tire change are perhaps the least challenging to the glue bond, however, so they don't really suffer from a substandard gluejoint). Anyway, Soyo is a tough glue. It's rather hard to get the tire off when you have a flat (at least with your bare hands -- you can roll an allen key or tire lever under the tire to pop it off quickly of course). It doesn't mix with other glues well, and it isn't the best glue for remounting a tire on the road (but then, nothing is unless you throw in a coat of fresh glue (or possibly a Tufo tape). You just need to know that you have to ride conservatively once you've changed the tire. But the Soyo does glue well, and it also fills a gap pretty well, so if your tire doesn't quite fit the profile of the rim, it isn't as much of an issue as with Vittoria Mastik One. It is a bit slower to glue up, so if you want to do a fast repair I might suggest you stick with Mastik One. Plus, Soyo can be hard to find while everyone carries Mastik One. I've also had a bit more trouble with getting batches of Soyo that have sat at the importer or the store long enough that it has decomposed a bit. Oh, and the tubes do tend to get pinhole leaks and get glue on your hands, which Mastik One seems to have solved.

At this level, it's mostly about technique, to be honest. Whether you use Conti, Mastik One, or Soyo, just recognize the small differences between them and be sure you don't take shortcuts that hurt your glue bond.

Some of the glues mentioned here, such as the Clement gutta and the red Vittoria, haven't been made for a while. A few years ago it looked like tubulars were just plain dying out, and glues started doing the same.

TRUE THEY ARE NOT MADE ANYMORE. CONTI SYTILL MAKES GLUE AS I BOUGHT SOME BACK IN JANUARY. THOSE TWO GLUES REALLY WORKED WELL.

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Those two in particular were among the worst at melting when rims heated up while braking, and they weren't really the best anyway, so no loss as far as I'm concerned.

MOST GLUES DURING THOSE TIMES HAD HEATING PROBLEMS ESPECAILLY WHEN THEY STARTED USING EXOTIC MATERIALS ON THE RIMS.

Now tubulars are a lot better, carbon tubular rims are hot, and there aren't enough glue options around. A couple of us have been working on trying to concoct a better glue for track.
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The Soyo is a very strong glue, made for the Japanese market and especially for track. In the US and parts of Europe, there's a feeling that you should be able to snap a tire off the rim when you flat and get going within a couple minutes.

IT DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH GLUE IS APPLIED. I RIDE ON MY FLATS IF I DON'T HAVE A SPARE. THIS IS PERSONAL EXPEIRNCE SO IT IS NOT FOR EVERYBODY.

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Thankfully that misperception is dying out, because it must have led to some rolled tires (the folks who want to have the least-hassle tubular tire change are perhaps the least challenging to the glue bond, however, so they don't really suffer from a substandard gluejoint).

I AGREE TOTALLY HERE. IF YOU ARE NOT EXPERIENCED WITH TUBULARS AND THE DIFFERENT GLUES CHOOSE A WELL KNOWN BRAND THAT IS EASY TO GET .


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Anyway, Soyo is a tough glue. It's rather hard to get the tire off when you have a flat (at least with your bare hands -- you can roll an allen key or tire lever under the tire to pop it off quickly of course). It doesn't mix with other glues well,

I CHOOSE TO DIFFER HERE AS I USED DIFFERENT GLUE WITH SOYO AND PANASONIC AND HAD GOOD RESULTS.
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and it isn't the best glue for remounting a tire on the road (but then, nothing is unless you throw in a coat of fresh glue (or possibly a Tufo tape).

You just need to know that you have to ride conservatively once you've changed the tire. But the Soyo does glue well, and it also fills a gap pretty well, so if your tire doesn't quite fit the profile of the rim, it isn't as much of an issue as with Vittoria Mastik One. It is a bit slower to glue up, so if you want to do a fast repair I might suggest you stick with Mastik One.

I AGREE HERE ALSO BUT IT SUCKS REMOUNTING IN WET WEATHER WITH MASTIK.
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Plus, Soyo can be hard to find while everyone carries Mastik One. I've also had a bit more trouble with getting batches of Soyo that have sat at the importer or the store long enough that it has decomposed a bit. Oh, and the tubes do tend to get pinhole leaks and get glue on your hands, which Mastik One seems to have solved.

GOOD LINK FOR HERE : http://www.worldclasscycles.com/tubes_adhesives.htm

YOU CAN BUY 6 PACKS ALSO.

Clement (none available) Gutta Extra 35 gram

Continental orange tube 25 gram

Tubasti Extra 25 gram

Hutchinson Competition 35 gram

Panaracer Competition 33 gram

Panaracer Competition 100 ml can

Vittoria Mastik 1 25 gram

Vittoria Mastik 1 250 gram can

3M click here for important info Fast tack 5 oz.




At this level, it's mostly about technique, to be honest. Whether you use Conti, Mastik One, or Soyo, just recognize the small differences between them and be sure you don't take shortcuts that hurt your glue bond.

I AGREE HERE. EXPERIENCE PLAYS A GOOD PART IN KNOWING WHAT TO USE AND HOW TO USE IT.

11.4 , THANKS FOR POSTING .

S/F,
CEYA!

Now tubulars are a lot better, carbon tubular rims are hot, and there aren't enough glue options around. A couple of us have been working on trying to concoct a better glue for track.
That's cool - keep us informed if you come up with anything!



At this level, it's mostly about technique, to be honest. Whether you use Conti, Mastik One, or Soyo, just recognize the small differences between them and be sure you don't take shortcuts that hurt your glue bond.
I think this is spot on. IMO differences in application technique are usually more significant than the differences between the various brands of glue. This point is also echoed in the test paper linked to earlier.

mickster

My personal experience with Fastack is that it's not what it used to be. It also tends to eat at the glue holding the base tape on the tubular. When I went to reglue the tubulars on my Zipp 404's for this race season I found that the glue holding the tubular on my front wheel had basically turned to a dry dust and there was very little adhesion left from the glue. (I'm pretty glad I tend to reglue all of my tubulars at the beginning of every race season). The base tape on the tubular had also turned very, very brittle and easily pulled away from the tubular. The base tape had no adhesion to the tire at all. I've switched back to good old Mastic 1. No worries ever with that glue.

SOYO and PANASONIC is the same stuff.

Yes they are the only good glue left.

Vittoria ,

Bring the Red glue back.

S/F,
CEYA!

CEYA,

Panasonic or Panaracer?

marty

Panaracer is made by Panasonic/National company.

S/F,
CEYA!

This is what I was taught for track tires. And it works really well. It took 20 min to peel off a flat one!

Prepair the rim the normal way with a couple thin layers of brush on mastik. and one on the tire. Let it dry for a day. Use and entire tube of Mastik cement around the rim, mount align, pump up near max pressue so its sitting straight and leave it for a few days.

Theres probably a million differant ways that work, this one worked for me.