Advocacy & Safety - Sad UK story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_west/4592412.stm

Damn :( Probably never saw it coming. It's sad and tragic... Four people, one little car. At one go :( That must've been quite an impact, the bikes looked totaled...

OMG that's terrible! The article says they were hit by a car travelling in the opposite direction. Does that mean they were riding against the flow of traffic? The bicycles look like they are on the right side of the road but in the UK aren't you supposed to drive on the left side of the road?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/uk_enl_1136740162/img/1.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41194000/jpg/_41194382_police203pa.jpghttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41194000/jpg/_41194920_cyclecrashclose203.jpg

Very tragic :( But at the risk of sounding like a real a-hole, based on what the BBC story says. I would question the decision to have a club ride on a what is reported to be a high accident road in possible icy conditions, assuming the description of the road and conditions are accurate.

OMG that's terrible! The article says they were hit by a car travelling in the opposite direction. Does that mean they were riding against the flow of traffic? The bicycles look like they are on the right side of the road but in the UK aren't you supposed to drive on the left side of the road?

No, finish reading the story. The car was travelling at 50mph (considered a reasonable speed on that road) hit some black ice, lost control, crossed the grass verge, and went into the oncoming lane where the cyclists were.

Something doesn't add up.

Icy conditions?
Dangerous road?
50mph is not too fast?

Az

Something doesn't add up.

Icy conditions?
Dangerous road?
50mph is not too fast?

Az

i was thinking the same thing. very tragic, though, especially the 14 yr old.

If it's icy, 35mph is too fast, let alone 50.
The bikes could indeed be on the correct side of the rode, editors sometimes flip pictures horizontally for one reason or another because of the way its printed. Since pictures released in a newspaper aren't generally used as evidence, there's no need to be accurate with orientation.

I think that the other lanes of traffic have been cropped out of the picture posted. Thus, the reason why the bikes are on the right side of the left side lanes.

The pic has the bikes in the correct place - they were being ridden towards the camera, so are on the kerbside of their lane coming towards the viewer (see the arrow obscured by the nearest police car telling you to pull left cos of the double white no overtaking lines).

Yes we drive on the left hand side of the road in UK! The cyclists were riding correctly and the driver was driving correctly. The driver hit a patch if black ice and veered side-on towards the cyclists, skidded across into the cyclists and the car hit the group side-on. At 50 mph do you think the bikes stayed where they were after being hit or do you think they were flung all over the place!!!? Some of the bikes and cyclists were flung up into the air and over the wall into a nearby field. Nothing has been cropped out of the pictures you see. It's a 2-lane road with both lanes oncoming to each other. A car hitting a groups of cyclists at 50mph usually results in bikes all over the place and has no bearing on which part of the road the cyclists were on prior to the accident!

Something doesn't add up.

Icy conditions?
Dangerous road?
50mph is not too fast?

Az

Looking at the picture of the road, it does not look like a safe place to be travelling 50 mph under any conditions.

Looking at the picture of the road, it does not look like a safe place to be travelling 50 mph under any conditions.


The speed limit of that road is 60mph.

Looking at the picture of the road, it does not look like a safe place to be travelling 50 mph under any conditions.


Apparently quite safe. And the roads had been gritted as well.

edit: see below.

Call for cycle deaths road report

There are calls for reports into "poor road conditions" which may have led to the death of four cyclists when a car skidded and spun into them.
One rider, Jon Harland, from Prestatyn, saw his 14-year-old son Thomas killed.

The tragedy happened as 12 members of Rhyl Cycling Club were out near Abergele in north Wales on Sunday.

Club chairman Maurice Broadbent, 61, from Rhuddlan, Dave Horrocks, 55, from Llanerch and 42-year-old Wayne Wilkes, from Rhyl, were also killed.

Police have described the deaths on Sunday as a "tragic accident". Officers said a Toyota Corolla travelling in the opposite direction, skidded on ice and spun broadside into the riders, throwing several into a neighbouring field.

The cyclists had just set out from Mr Broadbent's home in Rhuddlan on a 60-mile round trip to Great Orme when the crash took place on a dangerous stretch of the A547 Rhuddlan Road.

North Wales Police Chief Inspector Martyn Schlangen said there had been a minor accident at the same spot about an hour before the fatal collision and that the police had made a request for the council to re-grit the road.

All 12 riders in the group were members of a cycling club

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/4594380.stm

It was a freak occurrence.

It is very rare for there to be more than the occasional patch of black ice in the UK, so it would be reasonable for a club ride of experienced cyclists to take place at this time of the year.

The risk of a group of riders being in just the wrong place at the wrong time when a driver lost control is extremely low - on that same day, there would hve been thousands of club riders out all over the country with never a newsmaking accident between them.

The bikes could indeed be on the correct side of the rode, editors sometimes flip pictures horizontally for one reason or another because of the way its printed.

Except for those NUMBERS in the pictures........=0**

I guess the poster who thought they were in the "right lane" looked at the road through the north american eye.........we see the lane the bikes are in.....if riding correctly, WE would be moving away from the camera. It's all about perspective......

How sad. We all have to be soo careful out there.

The speed limit of that road is 60mph.

I'm aware that the National Speed Limit in the UK is 60 mph outside of built up areas. I've seen plenty of roads in the UK with a 60 mph speed limit that did not look (to my eyes) to be safe to travel on at 60 mph (or in some cases 50 or less). The road in the picture might have a 60 mph speed limit, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to travel 60 mph (or even 50 mph) on that road.

I thought the Brits used metric scales, ie kph? 50 kph is a bit slower than 50 mph, I believe. Nonetheless, two slideouts on black ice in an hour is way too much. Definately not enough road salt...

Apparently quite safe. And the roads had been gritted as well.
What does that mean?

I thought the Brits used metric scales, ie kph? 50 kph is a bit slower than 50 mph, I believe. Nonetheless, two slideouts on black ice in an hour is way too much. Definately not enough road salt...

The Brits use a lot of metric measurements (fuel is sold by the liter, etc.) but a lot of measurements are still given in English units. Highway distances and speeds are measured in miles and mph, beer is sold by the pint, and auto fuel consumption is often given in miles per Imperial gallon, even though fuel is sold by the liter.

From what I've seen on other forums and newsgroups there is some question as to how recently or adequately the road in question had been gritted/sanded/salted.

Chaps & Chappesses,


As a mark of solidarity and respect, cyclists Worldwide have been asked to wear a black armband this Sunday while out riding.
Thanks on behalf of the Club.

I want to say 'terrible accident, nobody's fault' etc, but I can't, everbody who drives in Engand knows what black ice is and how dangerous it is.

I don't mean to ruffle featers but it might be a better idea to ask all cyclists to tie a black ribbon or string aroud their headtube...I'd be less willing to wear a black arm band becuase I'd feel like a Black panther or hitler youth...just saying.

I don't mean to ruffle featers but it might be a better idea to ask all cyclists to tie a black ribbon or string aroud their headtube...I'd be less willing to wear a black arm band becuase I'd feel like a Black panther or hitler youth...just saying.

~Wearing balck armbands as a sign of respect for the dead long predates the Black Panther movement, the armbands worn by Nazis included the swastika, so I don't see the relevance, I'm afraid

Doesn't matter what it predates or disincludes. All that matter is conotation. I could wear a swastika and argue all day that it is an ancient hindu symbol. I'm probably still gonna get my ass beat by an orthodox jew. Black arm bands conotate(word?sp?) those things.

Doesn't matter what it predates or disincludes. All that matter is conotation. I could wear a swastika and argue all day that it is an ancient hindu symbol. I'm probably still gonna get my ass beat by an orthodox jew. Blackk arm bands conotate(word?sp?) those things.

Maybe in America only?

Doesn't matter what it predates or disincludes. All that matter is conotation. I could wear a swastika and argue all day that it is an ancient hindu symbol. I'm probably still gonna get my ass beat by an orthodox jew. Blackk arm bands conotate(word?sp?) those things.


Maybe in America only?

Johnny_Monkey,
Do swastikas connote something good where you live in "Λονδίνο"?

Johnny_Monkey,
Do swastikas connote something good where you live in "Λονδίνο"?


I thought we were talking about black armbands.

Wearing a swastika armband would be considered inappropriate for the purposes of mourning in Λονδίνο.

Johnny_Monkey,
Do swastikas connote something good where you live in "Λονδίνο"?

actually, until the Nazis appropriated the symbol, that's exactly what it connote...something good.

Check out this site (http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/swastika.html) , which is just one of many.

actually, until the Nazis appropriated the symbol, that's exactly what it connote

what it DID connotate...sorry...bad English this morning...

Black arm bands. Connotations. Denotations. Rah. I think this has been usurped. Too many connotations. Seems like "death" or "loss" is the common meaning.


1) the black armband movement
As a way of expressing our opposition to the illegal war against Iraq
www.furnitureforthepeople.com/armband.htm

2) Extreme "guys" from broken back mountain.
www.roguedenim.com/Black_Denim.htm

3) Calvin Coolidge, full-length portrait, seated at desk, facing front, holding pen and paper, wearing black armband in mourning for President Harding
http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/jazz/jb_jazz_coolidge_1_e.html

4) Zimbabwe's cricketers protest loss of demacracy.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/02/10/1044725740786.html


5) Jordan wears black armband to "support the worldwide resistance"
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=02/09/27/4064490

6) Robbie McEwen wears a black armband
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200507/r53127_143209.jpg

I believe you are confusing conotation and denotation. While the swastika may denote a good thing to hindue it will always have a evil connotation.

Too bad those people I pass on the street won't have the luxery of looking up the meaning of a black armband before labling me as a disedent instead of noticing my solidarity for a fallen comrade.

Too bad those people I pass on the street won't have the luxery of looking up the meaning of a black armband before labling me as a disedent instead of noticing my solidarity for a fallen comrade.

I don't think anyone is forcing you to wear one.

Maybe you shouldn't wear one if you feel this strongly about it.

Too bad those people I pass on the street won't have the luxery of looking up the meaning of a black armband before labling me as a disedent instead of noticing my solidarity for a fallen comrade.

Where on earth did you get the idea that wearing a black armband will get you mistaken for a Nazi or a Black Panther? It is, throughout the Western world, a universally recognised symbol of shared grief/respect for the recently dead.

I repeat, the Nazi armband included the swastika. A black armband without a swastika does not indicate sympathy with, nor membership of, any fascist organisation.

However, if you know that your ride takes you past idiots who believe otherwise, then feel free to hang it from your handlebars, stem, seat pillar or whatever.

I believe you are confusing conotation and denotation. While the swastika may denote a good thing to hindue it will always have a evil connotation.
I think that there are too many connotations of a black arm band for it to stand for any particular thing. Black arm band denotes black arm band. I would not think "NAZI" without more signs, like evident racist attitudes, or swastikas.

I think that it is a fine way to show solidarity for a fallen person of importance. Since there are so many connotations it would probably evoke questions and then more people would know the reason.

Could also use a crimson colored Lance band.

A black armband has long been and still primarilly is a sign of mourning/respect for a dead friend. Almost all other uses in western culture (look at those sited in previous posts) make use of that symbolism.

Hello from England. I'll be wearing a black armband tomorrow (Sunday) when I go on my ride. It's a mark of respect for fallen cycling comrades...the rest is bull****. The guys were from a Welsh cycling club. Since it happened, there's been a lot more respect to cyclists from drivers...but I doubt it will last! :mad:

Update on the BBC website
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/4629484.stm

Update on the BBC website
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/4629484.stm

so the usual hand wringing and back to business as usual

Something doesn't add up.

Icy conditions?
Dangerous road?
50mph is not too fast?

Az

My thoughts, exactly. Shouldn't any definition of what constitutes a "safe speed" take into account weather and road conditions? A road that is not dangerous in warm, clear, dry weather may be dangerous in cold, icy conditions.

I'm not Nazi, Black Panther, nor Hindi, only another cyclist. I will wear a black armband tomorrow in solidarity with our lost fellow cyclists. That's all the armband represents. A simple symbol of respect, as many previous posters have mentioned.