Road Bike Racing - Radios in racing poll.

I've been reading some pros and cons about radio communication on races. The UCI is toying with the idea of banning team radio communication and only have race safety warnings.
I think radios have killed the surprise attack and the breakaway.

How have they killed the surprise attack and breakaway?! We don't know when a rider is going to attack or breakaway only the directeur sportif and the rider knows when it will happen. Plus they are an essential part of racing. If someone has a flat, the team car/support car will be there in a matter of seconds.

Also in regards to Acathi_Cyclist in the other thread, the peloton would know how much time they have between them anyways. Thats why they have the motorbike guys with the big chalkboard.

Because all attacks are seen on TV in the team directeurs car, then the info is conveyed to the riders-this is why so few recent breakways succeed. Riders are constantly called up and down to aid others, deals are cut between teams during the race by cell phone and radio. Radios have changed racing.
If someone has a flat, the support car will be there anyway, its always behind.

Warblade, you are partially right with regards to the chalkboard guy, but it is not as precise or up to date, and not everyone in the peloton can see it. I'm not saying that they are a bad thing, just that they've changed the sport.

One of my pet hates.....

Call me old school, but bike racing was better when the decisions were left to the guys on the road, not those watching the race on TV in a car a couple of hundred meters behind.


Ban them. Riders are becoming robots, waiting for instructions. How many post race interviews do you hear that go along the lines of:

"My directeur told me to/not to ride...."
"I could hear on the radio Team X wasn't chasing..."
"I was getting the splits on the radio..."
"We kept the pressure on because we heard Rider X was struggling..."

The radio is the enemy of chaos, of indecision and selfish individual ambition in a pretty regulated team sport.

Excitement, in other words.

Paul Sherwen would never use computers, which were popularised when he was still in the Pro peloton. When he was flying, he didn't need a machine to tell him he was flying. When he was grovelling, he knew that as well- and didn't want to be reminded of the fact;-)

I love it when Vino pointedly rips the headphone out of his ear then goes on the warpath.

How many more long breaks in the Tour would (deservedly) succeed without riders in the peloton being constantly updated of the time gap situation and instructed via radio?

Ban them I say, along with black socks..... :)

curiously how many of you actually have used a race radio before? because they really are helpful, in my opinion. plus the teams don't care about if it makes for good "spectation", they want to win more than anything.

curiously how many of you actually have used a race radio before? because they really are helpful, in my opinion. plus the teams don't care about if it makes for good "spectation", they want to win more than anything.

I have used them on numerous occasions. They were never that helpful in strategy for us, as our races were never being televised live in our directors car. But they did help with mechanicals, feeding, and crashes. I do hate seeing the ProTour teams making decisions based on what the director see on his live Eurosport feed though.

The problem is that to ban radio completely you really have to ban live race coverage. If there is live coverage the fans at the side of the road will know. Then they will communicate with riders. Next step not all the fans are fans, some are actually working with a team. Then the team with teh deepest pockets has the best information.

I honestly don't like race radio and what it has done. But I like a system where the rich get even more advantage even less.

Ban them I say, along with black socks..... :)


Lol...

And shoe covers when it's not raining and colour-matching your team kit to a leader's jersey.

The problem is that to ban radio completely you really have to ban live race coverage. If there is live coverage the fans at the side of the road will know. Then they will communicate with riders. Next step not all the fans are fans, some are actually working with a team. Then the team with teh deepest pockets has the best information.

I honestly don't like race radio and what it has done. But I like a system where the rich get even more advantage even less.
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Come on, Keith. That's a silly argument. A fan or team member on the side of the road is a far cry from a director in his car with a tv and calculator, calling all the shots.

It's much safer in the caravan without all the riders coming back to consult with the DS when the pack is together.
But it would be a LOT safer if the Directors weren't watching the TV screen, woodnit?

I can go either way on this one.

But it would be interesting to see this generation of riders ride w/o the radios since I don't think any of them have ever really done that. At least not in a long while.

It would be interesting if a couple fairly large races banned them, just to see the effects on a trial basis. Who knows, television viewership might rise due to the increasing unpredictability of the race.

I appreciate the days when Klauswicz's term "The Fog of War" applied to racing. But the UCI is not going to go back to those days. That is just wishful thinking/baloney.

Many times the riders didn't know what was going on. I remember like a 1989 tour where somebody thought he had won and gave a victory salute but was in fact second, because there was one guy still away. That wouldn't ever happen anymore!

I remember like a 1989 tour where somebody thought he had won and gave a victory salute but was in fact second, because there was one guy still away. That wouldn't ever happen anymore!


I think you mean the 1993 Tour where Cipollini won the bunch sprint to finish second to a flying Johan Bruyneel.....BTW, fastest Tour stage ever for a while. And yes....it still happens.

I say ban the radio or ban all other technology (TVs, Cell phones, etc) in the mobile war rooms the teams drive behind the peloton.

I think you mean the 1993 Tour where Cipollini won the bunch sprint to finish second to a flying Johan Bruyneel.....BTW, fastest Tour stage ever for a while. And yes....it still happens.

Or how about when Phinney won a bunch sprint Tour stage in '86/87? but didn't put his hands up because he thought that a solo break rider had won already! What a nice surprise that must have been!

Or how about when Phinney won a bunch sprint Tour stage in '86/87? but didn't put his hands up because he thought that a solo break rider had won already! What a nice surprise that must have been!


Yep....remember that.

Or Gianni Bugno on Alpe d'Huez in 1991. Just rolled across the line in front of Indurain to win....still thought one or two guys were away.

Made up for it by throwing the arms up at the Worlds in Stuttgart later that year.....j-u-s-t got it from Mig that time, but it made a great photo!

I vote for losing the live TV coverage in team cars.

Regardless - neither that nor team radios are going to vanish. It's too late.

Ooo.. good thread.

There is some good in radios, and technology could help. The Race director can broadcast safety warning to all riders on one channel. The radios could go one-way from rider to team directeur in case of a mechanical problem.

Watch "Overcoming" if you can, it's amazing to see how much manipulation over the riders the directeur has, and how team directeurs are in contact with each other and cut deals constantly in mid-race. Makes you wonder what we're missing. Also wonder if teams listen in on each other-anyone know if scanners can catch the chatter?

I think some riders, like Voigt, would be much more successful without radios to co-ordinate pursuits from the peloton.

I vote for losing the live TV coverage in team cars.

Regardless - neither that nor team radios are going to vanish. It's too late.

Not really, they opened up radio frequencies for formula one a few years ago after Ferrari was manipulating finishes between their drivers.

Not really, they opened up radio frequencies for formula one a few years ago after Ferrari was manipulating finishes between their drivers.


Well some of the teams agreed McLaren still won't allow anyone to hear their radio communications. But back to the topic...I voted to lose them only because I feel that levels the tactical playing field. A rider who is instinctively a better tactician but who may be slightly less gifted physically has lost an edge. I think it would make the peloton more aggressive and the breaks would have to be pulled back sooner, making it less likely that 'sprinter trains' would develop. It would benefit a guy like Boonen but hinder a guy like Pettachi (sp).

Having said that I do tend to fall into the "it was better way back when" at times so I could be completely wrong and this type of racing is as good as it gets.

Not really, they opened up radio frequencies for formula one a few years ago after Ferrari was manipulating finishes between their drivers.

I suppose they could try and control it but where there's a will there will be a way. Euros will still pass between teams for various "cooperations" during races with or without radios. If TVs in the cars are banned then teams will just have someone watching back at the hotel & phoning in information.

^ this year's world championship was a incredible example of buying off riders. But, it is very common to offer $$ mid race over the radio.

^ this year's world championship was a incredible example of buying off riders. But, it is very common to offer $$ mid race over the radio.


Indeed.

Any race where the Fassas are (were) on the front when Ale-Jet is sunning himself on a beach raises eyebrows.

everbody should just use one channel and the team telling the riders everything would be mavic telling them about crashes and stuff.

One of my pet hates.....

Call me old school, but bike racing was better when the decisions were left to the guys on the road, not those watching the race on TV in a car a couple of hundred meters behind.

I agree completely.

I have used them on numerous occasions. They were never that helpful in strategy for us, as our races were never being televised live in our directors car. But they did help with mechanicals, feeding, and crashes. I do hate seeing the ProTour teams making decisions based on what the director see on his live Eurosport feed though.

Amazing, because I love to use one. Only because my coach is more tactically "savvy" than I am. He was a pro for awhile so he knows quite a bit, I'm still a "padewan".

Who is he? Who'd he ride for?
Anyone I know?

Who is he? Who'd he ride for?
Anyone I know?

Ryan Miller, He rode for Prime Alliance 2001-2003. He rode with the likes of Chris Horner and Michael Creed on Prime and I *think* Danny Pate was with Prime at the time too. Anyways, he holds 21 National Championship titles and is the current Elite Team Pursuit National Champion of 2005. check out his website >> www.millercoaching.com
Under the Riders section im Chris Di Re. :)

I think you mean the 1993 Tour where Cipollini won the bunch sprint to finish second to a flying Johan Bruyneel.....BTW, fastest Tour stage ever for a while. And yes....it still happens.

No that isn't what I mean. But, I'm sure it happened more than once. Oddly, I don't remember the winner, but I remember the second place guy was French, and it wasn't a bunch sprint for second. The fact that it happened more than once speaks volumes about how different racing was when before the fog was lifted. It might have been 1990.

Yep....remember that.

Or Gianni Bugno on Alpe d'Huez in 1991. Just rolled across the line in front of Indurain to win....still thought one or two guys were away.

Made up for it by throwing the arms up at the Worlds in Stuttgart later that year.....j-u-s-t got it from Mig that time, but it made a great photo!

Eduardo Chozas did the same thing, I think, in 1993. There had been tons of attacks and counters and he just didn't know if he was first or not.

You know whiile I appreciate the past, I think it is fine the way it is now. I think in a way it is too bad that a break often gets caught but this point is perhaps overstated. In the 2005 tour after the first week there was a break almost every single day. I don't recall any field sprints in the classics, except for Milan San Remo, but that has nothing to do with radios. The only thing I regret is that it takes the onus off of the riders to pay attention to the front of the race to make sure they don't miss anything.

You know whiile I appreciate the past, I think it is fine the way it is now. I think in a way it is too bad that a break often gets caught but this point is perhaps overstated. In the 2005 tour after the first week there was a break almost every single day. I don't recall any field sprints in the classics, except for Milan San Remo, but that has nothing to do with radios. The only thing I regret is that it takes the onus off of the riders to pay attention to the front of the race to make sure they don't miss anything.

However, the use of radio does change which riders are allowed to break away--especially in the Grand Tours. Team directors for GC contenders evaluate each break to see if any riders pose a threat to their team leader. If so, a chase is then ordered. If not, only then can the break have a chance of success.

This scenario of evaluating breaks is fine if done by riders in the peloton, but it's not as cool when done by the team director over the radio.

Remeber when Armstrong was in the Olympic RR and his radio was broken. He had no clue a (eventually winning) break went up the road. A case of the radio backfiring.

But, I would like to see the radios go. It was much more intersting watching the riders agonize over whether they should follow or make the break and use their own judgement. It actually gave the tv viewer a bit of an edge as to what is developing.

Somehow doubt we'll go back. The DS gets so much more stage and spotlight these days.

Remeber when Armstrong was in the Olympic RR and his radio was broken. He had no clue a (eventually winning) break went up the road. A case of the radio backfiring.

But, I would like to see the radios go. It was much more intersting watching the riders agonize over whether they should follow or make the break and use their own judgement. It actually gave the tv viewer a bit of an edge as to what is developing.

Somehow doubt we'll go back. The DS gets so much more stage and spotlight these days.

Like I said earlier, the teams don't care if it's good entertainment. They're there for one reason and one reason only, to win.

Like I said earlier, the teams don't care if it's good entertainment. They're there for one reason and one reason only, to win.

-that would be the reason why we don't let the teams make all the rules;-)

Warblade, I reckon you might rethink your views on this when you have more experience/ less confidence in another coach. It's frustrating when some local Cyrille Guimard wannabe starts laying down the law and the team spends a lot of energy on fruitless chases -or arguments. Radios lend themselves to that whole 'designated winner' mentality, that the more power hungry directeurs love.

Like I said earlier, the teams don't care if it's good entertainment. They're there for one reason and one reason only, to win.

I disagree. Teams care very much if it is good entertainment. If it isn't no one watches and if no one watches then there is no money in it.

BUT they also want to win. So given a choice they will do anything legal (and quite a few not so legal) to win.

I'd like to see em go...
Safety concerns?... people raced bikes before radios, GPS, and live helicoptor coverage.

I feel all the extra analyzation can take away from the game... Radios and in car TV's are the bike equivalent to NFL with coaches up in the rafters watching footage, finding weaknesses, calling in plays from the sky. The guys on the ground play actors in the show. I'd rather see the coach in the dirt call the play - working with the QB, based on in the trenches information.





Let the teams figure it out, on the roll...

I disagree. Teams care very much if it is good entertainment. If it isn't no one watches and if no one watches then there is no money in it.

BUT they also want to win. So given a choice they will do anything legal (and quite a few not so legal) to win.

Good point BUT I can gaurantee you they want to win more than just have it be good entertainment.

And as for Flaneur, if I were you, I would totally discard that experience comment. I'd be willing to bet that I have more experience and more confidence in myself when riding a bike than most people you will meet.

Warblade, not wanting you to take this as a flame, but I think it was you who said something about being happy to utilize the tactical experience of your director, because that was something you felt wasn't your strength. I suspect that if you were one of the master tacticians in the peleton, or if you were an aggressive rider who gets in a lot of breaks, you'd feel like the radio was working to your disadvantage. I think this was the poster's point. If it weren't for the radio, the palmares would likely be distributed quite a bit differently on the UCI tour.

Can you say "Juan Antonio Flecha"? "Stefano Garzelli"? :)

Warblade, not wanting you to take this as a flame, but I think it was you who said something about being happy to utilize the tactical experience of your director, because that was something you felt wasn't your strength. I suspect that if you were one of the master tacticians in the peleton, or if you were an aggressive rider who gets in a lot of breaks, you'd feel like the radio was working to your disadvantage. I think this was the poster's point. If it weren't for the radio, the palmares would likely be distributed quite a bit differently on the UCI tour.

Can you say "Juan Antonio Flecha"? "Stefano Garzelli"? :)

Sorry, maybe I should clarify myself. I am very "tactically" inclined (I guess thats how you say it?) BUT theres always something more you can learn, especially from someone who has been to the top and done very well. I can totally see why you guys think radios should be banned, but why not be very tactically inclined and have the use of a radio. Plus riders and directeurs can give support and enthusium to a rider thats gone onto a breakaway.

**EDIT**Forgot to mention that my coach, Ryan Miller, got a 6th place at the Junior World National Championships in 1998, I believe.

Warblade, Thanks for the clarification. I think a couple of us read more into your post than you put there.

Warblade, Thanks for the clarification. I think a couple of us read more into your post than you put there.

No prob, sorry for the confusion.

Really can't come up with a good argument to ban or keep radios, except I find them distracting and feel that their use has made the sport more calculated and less exciting.

sun

Really can't come up with a good argument to ban or keep radios, except I find them distracting and feel that their use has made the sport more calculated and less exciting.

sun


that sounds like a good argument to ban radios.

I'm not talking about banning all radios, just the team radios.

Good point BUT I can gaurantee you they want to win more than just have it be good entertainment.

And as for Flaneur, if I were you, I would totally discard that experience comment. I'd be willing to bet that I have more experience and more confidence in myself when riding a bike than most people you will meet.

No need to be touchy...............you described yourself as a Padewan, did you not?

My thinking was that you learn just as much when the good coach is not around- and you have to improvise- or when you go outside the coach's experience, as well as your own. You also learn when you go up a level- or sideways into a different discipline. Sometimes a new coaching regime is a psychological blow, other times it's stimulating....but you learn from it all. The guy most likely to win from an evenly matched break is the mentally smartest and physically toughest- not the one getting the most love in his ear.

I applaud your self confidence. This will sustain you through the low points of your racing life, towards the next goal. As for you having more experience than most people I'll meet? I'll take that bet;-)

It's much safer in the caravan without all the riders coming back to consult with the DS when the pack is together.
But it would be a LOT safer if the Directors weren't watching the TV screen, woodnit?


But then they would just get someone else to watch on TV for them, and they could be given info over a cell phone.

You can't stop the effect of information on today's big races. Banning radios just makes things more dangerous and gives a greater advantage to the wealthiest teams.

Except... maybe banning team cars would work. Kind of.