General Cycling Discussion - Cyclist Self-Defense and the Law

I was having a discussion with an ex-police officer about various means and methods of personal defense. I explained that I will carry a telescopic baton in my car from time to time and that if necessary, I'd have it with me while riding my bike. He explained that having one in your car is acceptable and legal but that by having it while on a bike may get into the area of carrying a concealed weapon, although he wasn't completely positive. I do not have a CCW permit, I rarely feel the need for defense on the bike, but should I feel anything to the contrary, I'd rather have something than nothing and I found this news a little upsetting. How do U.S. laws pertain to personal self-defense and cycling? Is a bike considered a vehicle in this context, i.e. like a car - an extension of your home, where weaponry is permitted without a permit - or at that point are you a pedestrian concealing your weapon? Is this different from state to state?

I have often wondered why so many people on this board feel the need to carry weapons for "self-defence" when they ride. I have also often wondered what is the point of carrying them, given that a gun, baton or anything else is never going to be able to physically stop a car anyway. Personally, I'd rather avoid confrontation of that kind.

Originally posted by Chris L
I have often wondered why so many people on this board feel the need to carry weapons for "self-defence" when they ride.
You should see some of the places I ride. Get a flat in one of these places and you'll need to be ready for anything.

Frist - Chris, yes you should avoid conflict. However, given that if you still want to have a weapon it should be your right.

B-N-D There is no U.S. law it's by state or in some cases county. here in Virginia we passed a state law because the county laws were too diverse. So we have a "shall issue a permit" law. This means you can get a permit to carry a conceeled firearm if you are not a fellon, under a cout order,... It says "firearm". I'm legal carring my gun, but not numchucks and I don't know about a baton (although I know some folks have them.

The ansswer is to ket a book (or go to the library) on the laws of your state and look. Anything else is a gambol. A gambol is ok too as long as you are doing it with full knowledge that it is a gambol. There is, in most states, a law of least consecquences, i.e. you broke a law, but by doing so prevented worse results. So if your illeagle weapon saves the judges baby from a rabid dog you are pretty safe.

Joe
:beer:

Originally posted by Chris L
I have often wondered why so many people on this board feel the need to carry weapons for "self-defence" when they ride. I have also often wondered what is the point of carrying them, given that a gun, baton or anything else is never going to be able to physically stop a car anyway. Personally, I'd rather avoid confrontation of that kind.

As stated above, you may not appreciate where some of us ride, Chris. If I get in the unfortunate situation where I feel that I'm in mortal danger, I want to have the right tool for the job. :D

Chris, I think B-N-D is referring to legitimate self-defense situations like being accosted while changing a tire or just riding through a bad neighborhood, not taking a whack at a car that passed too close.

And just to clarify, thumping a car that passed too close is not self-defense. Self defense is protecting oneself from an imminent threat. Once the threat is passed self defense is no longer justified. In fact, if the "threat" has already passed by and you take some action, YOU become the aggressor. Something to think about.

Good comment Rainman. When I teach a firearms safety course I stress that and also get folks to read a book by Massad Aaoob "In the Gravest Extreme" Which goes into detail of how people did or did not get into trouble for "self defense" actions. Anyone contemplating carrieng any tool that could be used as a weapon should read that book.

Joe

A U-lock makes for quite a bruise.:D

That being said, I know nothing about US law. Canadian are not allowed to carry concealed weapons. However I bike through some dodgy places and always know that my cellphone and lock are close by.

Thumping on cars? Be my guest! Just don't come crying to me when the guy runs you over or something (you know people and their cars :rolleyes: ). If danger is imminent I can understand the thump. If you want to yell at the drive, just yell! Even better, wish a pox upon his household.

You can probably find the applicable state laws if you root around Georgia's web site. Frankly, I hold a rather dim view of Georgia's Attorney General Baker, his underlings and the GBI, but I won't bore you with a long explaination :) Anyway, for other non-lethal means of self-defense, there's always pepper spray or U-locks. I doubt you'd ever get cited for carrying a concealed U-lock.

[i] for other non-lethal means of self-defense, there's always pepper spray or U-locks. I doubt you'd ever get cited for carrying a concealed U-lock. [/B]

Pepper spray has had mixed results. As have other non-lethal items. You would never get cited for a U-lock - unless you used it as a weapon. Then some lawer could try to make it look like you were carring it "looking for trouble" if the person that attacked you then tried to sue you for something.

Joe
:beer:

Telescopic baton! I've never heard of this thing. I just had a look at some via google.

It looks that one has to be really strong and fast to use a telescopic baton.

I would suggest a pepper or CS spray in pocket and a modern light alloy knife in the tool bag for a really bad situation - like a pit-bull grip. Or meeting a bear cub on a trail (I had it in PA, but, fortunately, without a confrontation).

It is important to remember that having a weapon is often useless, if one is not trained to use it.

The most dangerous are those seconds when one pulls out a weapon and prepares it for the usage. So simple training of pulling the weapon out is very important.

Originally posted by joeprim
Good comment Rainman. When I teach a firearms safety course I stress that and also get folks to read a book by Massad Aaoob "In the Gravest Extreme" Which goes into detail of how people did or did not get into trouble for "self defense" actions. Anyone contemplating carrieng any tool that could be used as a weapon should read that book.

Joe

Joe, great book. I'd also suggest
Handguns and Self Defense, "Life Without Fear" by Mike Dalton and Mickey Fowler...ISBN o-9610954-0-7

It covers Lethal Weapon and when to use it.:beer:

Originally posted by Bumbaclat
Thumping on cars? Be my guest! Just don't come crying to me when the guy runs you over or something (you know people and their cars :rolleyes: ).

That was my point. Yuo can have a gun or a baton or whatever, but none of that will be of any use whatsoever if someone decides to run you over. And to be honest, I can't think of too many things that will motivate someone to do that more than having a gun pointed at them.

Originally posted by Chris L
That was my point. Yuo can have a gun or a baton or whatever, but none of that will be of any use whatsoever if someone decides to run you over.

The wide angle digital video camera with loop of about 3 minutes could record the behaviour of motorists and by this protect against being run over by the mischievous motorist.

So far such a device would be too expensive, but in couple of years it may become feasible.

Like military say that modern weapons are about information.

Someone is run over, gets into hospital, recovers, views the video record from this device, notes the plate number, takes a telescopic baton, and makes a visit.

The shortcoming may be that the mischievous motorist may want to return and destroy the record. Then there would be no recovery anymore. Hm...

In Iowa a person is allowed to carry a collapsable baton a stun gun or tazer, and pepper spray and conceil them with out a permit. The reason is they are all considered less then lethal. As long as they are used in self defense there is no problem. But once they are used for assault by the person carrying them then that is when that person can get in trouble.

Originally posted by Chris L
I have often wondered why so many people on this board feel the need to carry weapons for "self-defence" when they ride. I have also often wondered what is the point of carrying them, given that a gun, baton or anything else is never going to be able to physically stop a car anyway. Personally, I'd rather avoid confrontation of that kind.

You my friend must no be from NY.

In NY there is a possiblity of 5-6 guys confronting you at anytime anywhere to take that $2000 bike away from you.

Sometimes avoiding confrontation is easier said than done.

I carry mace and a knife

Originally posted by joeprim
Good comment Rainman. When I teach a firearms safety course I stress that and also get folks to read a book by Massad Aaoob "In the Gravest Extreme" Which goes into detail of how people did or did not get into trouble for "self defense" actions. Anyone contemplating carrieng any tool that could be used as a weapon should read that book.

Joe
Yea excellent book.
I wish I could have attended some of his classes.

last nights `crime watch' on TV featured an old crime with a young man getting stopped by a motorist, threatened for money and ultimately stabbed. He managed to cycle to a nearby house and died later on the way to hospital.

The trouble with being on a bike is that for a greater part of the time we are often `out in the sticks' on our own with no help or witnesses nearby. cyclists are very vulnerable to attack by motorists. I often think I should take a weapon with me for self defense. It only has to be one time..maybe the last time! :(

I'm not worried about people in cars, it's the people on the street I worry about. I live in gangland and pass through pimp-and-ho city on my way to cracktown. I don't particularly like gangsters, pimps, prostitutes or crackheads yet these are the people I am destined to encounter once I wreck or get a flat.
I will do absolutely anything to avoid a fight. I will always run first. But I'll also be prepared if I've run out of options and someone is trying to hurt me.

Ah the urban environment. ...Sounds absolutely charming. :D

mine is the open countryside often without a single dwelling for several miles. It can be just as scary as the inner city sometimes.:(

Originally posted by johndoe
You my friend must no be from NY.

In NY there is a possiblity of 5-6 guys confronting you at anytime anywhere to take that $2000 bike away from you.

I suppose we all face choices about where we live.

Always obey the laws of your jurisdiction, but just between you, me and the internet, It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.. for my part, I have a CWP and my daily carry is a USP .45 -- yes, even under the jersey.

That being said, I add a number of pithy little observations I've picked up along the way.

1. It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
2. "A gentleman will seldom, if ever, need a pistol, however, if he does, he needs it very badly." Sir Winston Churchill
3. Good judgment comes from experience. Most experience comes from bad judgment.
4. "If you're not shooting, you should be loading. If you're not loading, you should be moving. If you're not moving, someone's gonna cut your head off and put it on a stick." - Clint Smith
5. God doesn't throw the first punch.
6. You lose points if you have to thump 'em.
7. "We aim to please ... but shoot to kill!"
8. "I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." --J.R.R.Tolkien, The Two Towers
9. and the various rules for a gunfight, edited for pref.:


1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss. However, a critical corollary here is that you cannot miss fast enough to win.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend.

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME.

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan because the first one won't work.

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always Tac load and threat scan 360 degrees.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep you hands where I can see them.)

19. Decide to be AGGRESSIVE enough, QUICKLY enough.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong
commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.


best regards,

--alex.

In NY there is a possiblity of 5-6 guys confronting you at anytime anywhere to take that $2000 bike away from you.

Ok, Monsieur Pantalones Intelligents, whaddaya gonna do, huh? Shoot one or 2 of the guys? That still leaves 3 or 4 of them ready to not only take your bike, but now wanting to kill you, too!

It's blatantly obvious that you don't live in NY, because you don't know the cardinal rule about muggers:

Nothing you own is so valuable that it is worth getting killed over.

OK, say you have a gun-make it a small gun, say a .22 pistol. Where are you going to keep it? In the back pocket of your jersey? Isn't is going to flop around too much? In your wedge pack? Securely strapped to your handlebars? How quick can you draw it while you are riding, then? The answer is this: You can't draw a pistol quick enough! It's useless!

Of course, once the bike gets stolen, the criminals now have your pistol. Now, your legal firearm becomes an illegal gun. They may even shoot you with it! Thaks a lot!

On the other hand, a can of pepper spray is very light, and clips easily to clothing, pump straps, etc. It's easy to use, and at least as effective as a club. It's also legal, non-lethal, socially responsible, and inexpensive. you stand probably as good or better chance of escaping "5 or 6 guys" with a can of pepper spray than with a revolver. It's also an effective deterent on dogs, which are probably not quite dangerous enough to warrant a bullet.

For those prone to over-reacting in stressful situations, a can of pepper spray will do much less damage than a bullet. This might mean the difference between being admonished by the police, and doing 5 years for reckless endangerment.

In summation, only a fool or a sociopath would carry a pistol while riding. You might, possibly be able to justify carrying a firearm stowed while touring, but never just for riding. For those who are actively looking for something to shoot at, I'd suggest joining a reputable gun club, and leaving the pistol at home while riding.

Originally posted by goodcatjack

my daily carry is a USP .45 -- yes, even under the jersey.
.[/i]best regards,--alex. [/B]

jeez you carry a concealed .45 on your bike !??
what kind of a neigbourhood do you live in for chrissakes?:(

Originally posted by bac


As stated above, you may not appreciate where some of us ride, Chris. If I get in the unfortunate situation where I feel that I'm in mortal danger, I want to have the right tool for the job. :D

You know I have walked and ridden through some pretty tough neighborhoods. I went to high school in the inner city of Cleveland. And I have never carried a weapon with me and I live to tell about it. There are random acts of violence which there truly nothing you can do you usually don't get a chance to use your weapon and they can take it from you and use it against you. Your best defense is to act like you belong exactly where you are be confident and do not be afraid, and oh yeah no staring and mind your own business. Thats just my $0.02 worth :beer:

Originally posted by D*Alex
Nothing you own is so valuable that it is worth getting killed over.

Not all criminals are like those stereotypic benevolent NY street gangsters. If seeing softness and keys, they demand to show the way to one's apartment?

Does anyone has any practical experience with pneumatic pistols?

I own pneumatic rifle, which was produced in Spain. When I shoot into a thick book from a close range the bullet penetrates through several hundred pages. I can not go through so many pages when I hit the same book with a knife with all my strength.

This pneumatic guns are not considered as a weapon and do not require a legal permission.

I shoot once from an automatic pneumatic pistol, which was produced in Russia. It differs from a rifle that it can shoot all 13 charges one by one very quickly.

But I do not know how this small bullets will work through winter clothing. Wait a minute, I can make a test on a dummy tomorrow ...

In summation, only a fool or a sociopath would carry a pistol while riding.

The world has limited resources.

There are people willing to do whatever it takes to get what they want.

Once there is the imminent threat of deadly force, the only rule is survival.

This can happen to anyone, anytime, anywhere.

This is how the world is. Either be prepared to defend yourself, or be prepared to be a victim. If you don't think it can happen to you, dear reader, you aren't reading your news or history.

I'm not happy about this, but that's just the way it goes.

And just to keep this sort of on topic, you are perfectly capable of concealing a pistol on your person, under the jersey in an inside-the-waistband holster which is on a belt you wear soley for this purpose. but never, never, never, never, never, never wield a level of force which you are not trained and willing to use. IMO, if you can't go from deadly threat assessment to sights-on-target-2-shots-to-center-of-mass within approximately 2-3 seconds, you need to reconsider how you're carrying.

The Rule of 3: defensive encounters occur within 3 feet, are over in 3 seconds or less and 3 or fewer shots are fired.

--alex.

Originally posted by D*Alex


Shoot one or 2 of the guys? That still leaves 3 or 4 of them ready to not only take your bike, but now wanting to kill you, too!

OK, say you have a gun-make it a small gun, say a .22 pistol. Where are you going to keep it? In the back pocket of your jersey? Isn't is going to flop around too much? In your wedge pack? Securely strapped to your handlebars? How quick can you draw it while you are riding, then? The answer is this: You can't draw a pistol quick enough! It's useless!

On the other hand, a can of pepper spray is very light, and clips easily to clothing, pump straps, etc. It's easy to use, and at least as effective as a club. It's also legal, non-lethal, socially responsible, and inexpensive. you stand probably as good or better chance of escaping "5 or 6 guys" with a can of pepper spray than with a revolver.

In summation, only a fool or a sociopath would carry a pistol while riding. You might, possibly be able to justify carrying a firearm stowed while touring, but never just for riding. For those who are actively looking for something to shoot at, I'd suggest joining a reputable gun club, and leaving the pistol at home while riding.

Why is it that people who obviously don't know anything about guns insist the most indignantly on giving advice about guns to everyone else?

Look, they're called "holsters" and a minute's search on the internet will reveal a host of them that allow secure, concealed carry along with quick draw time. If you ever have any training in firearm use-- as many of us have-- you'll understand better. I won't hold my breath waiting for that.

In the meantime, why do you offer tactical advice about matters you obviously don't know a d*mn thing about?

You seem to have gotten one thing right, though: pepper spray is a very good item to have. It won't substitute for a gun, but it will provide a good defensive tool on many occasions. It is adequate for nearly any situation you'll face. (Though why you're sure you can escape from "5 or 6" muggers with pepper spray, but not with a gun, is anyone's guess.)

I'll add this, too. You're right that guns are a serious matter. They're not for playing around, they're not for "getting tough", they're not for showing anyone you're a badass. They're for life and death emergencies. That's it. As liberal sensibilities and pepper spray aren't yet sufficient for all such emergencies, some people simply want to be prepared in case the unthinkable happens. I know it's appalling that such people think that someone *gasp* other than government employees is responsible enough to own a gun, but there it is.

the bike itself is a weapon, you can lift the bike and just go for it , I mean if some crazy motorist will try to harrass you then you can use you bike as a weapon,, on one instance I have use my front tire to defend my self from an overzealous motorist who wanted to show off to his girlfriend that he can intimidate me, That made him think twice now before he harrass any cyclist from now on, he got his driver side window got busted....or we may say got broken

as my old man would say its very easy to get in trouble with the law, but very hard to get away from it.... at least with a bike as a weapon you got a sporting chance in getting an acquital if you happen to kill the son of a b......

Go to your local library and read the your State Code for "Deadly Weapons/CCW". Read it a couple of times at least...then make your decision as to whether you want to carry a baton. And if you feel that you want to carry a baton....keep in mind that for a defense of self-defense, you must have felt that your life was in eminent danger. This defense is easier said than done. Also, that baton is made for one reason...to batter!:crash:

The best defense, in my opinion, is your head.

Just curious B-n-D, are you riding to and from practices or gigs? If it is anywhere I'm thinking about around here, then I use stealth techniques. I try to get through the areas without anyone noticing me.

If I know the road then I might turn off my headlight and use the streetlights to see, then no one sees me coming. I don't wait for traffic signals or stop at stop signs. If there is no traffic then I'll ride towards the middle of the road to stay away from debris that would cause flat tires.

I also vary my routes so I'm not passing the same spots at the same time every day. I work on a dead end street in an industrial area known as a stolen car dumping ground and sometimes I leave late at night. I'm always thinking about my safety but carrying a weapon doesn't appeal to me. I'd probably hurt myself. ;)

Originally posted by orguasch
the bike itself is a weapon, you can lift the bike and just go for it

This is the idea, which may be developed. Sort of Bike-Foo.

I already can envision a technique, where a cyclist rotates bike around, like Ninjas or Shao-Lin monks do with their martial tools.

The seat post can be used instead of a baton, the forward wheel with quick release may be thrown to knock out a distant target.

I will try to wield my bike like this on today's ride.

Originally posted by goodcatjack
Either be prepared to defend yourself, or be prepared to be a victim.

I am not taking sides in the eternal US firearms argument. The problem, however, as it seems to me, is that not everyone understands "defend yourself" correctly or equally. I mean this:

2 dead in Oklahoma shooting spree (http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/26/oklahoma.shootings/index.html)

In our country firearms are not allowed for civilians without special permit (read - only determined criminals own them).

Originally posted by urban_assault
Just curious B-n-D, are you riding to and from practices or gigs? If it is anywhere I'm thinking about around here, then I use stealth techniques. I try to get through the areas without anyone noticing me.

If I know the road then I might turn off my headlight and use the streetlights to see, then no one sees me coming. I don't wait for traffic signals or stop at stop signs. If there is no traffic then I'll ride towards the middle of the road to stay away from debris that would cause flat tires.

I also vary my routes so I'm not passing the same spots at the same time every day. I work on a dead end street in an industrial area known as a stolen car dumping ground and sometimes I leave late at night. I'm always thinking about my safety but carrying a weapon doesn't appeal to me. I'd probably hurt myself. ;)
Yes, practice is near North & Glen Iris and I'm sure you know what life is like over there. I also work in an industrial area which is punctuated by three no-tell motels and a hispanic gangster nightclub. I love livin' in the city!
urban_assault and all: thanks for the good advice :)

This an interesting thread. Topics like this can reveal the type of person one is, of how one sees the world around them.

That being said, my view of whether carrying of a gun for protection is really simple, and it can be really simple for a lot of people if you ask yourself the following question:

Do you think your own mother or wife or girlfriend or sister or friend should be allowed to protect themselves against ******* and murderers?

The pacifists, cowards, wimps and ******* will trot out all sorts of arguments, stats and questions that are rather irrevalent when faced with thought of some psycho dragging your wife into the woods to be raped, tortured and murdered.

Where I live, each county has it's own policy reguarding concealed weapons. Fortunately, El Paso county allows carrying a concealed firearm if one has the appropriate permit. I personally don't carry my pistol when riding for various reasons. For one, my bike and everything I carry on it is relatively easy to replace. Second, allthough I have trained extensively with all types of firearms since early childhood, I believe it would be impossible to shoot from a moving bike accurately and hit only my intended target. Also, dismounting or coming to a stop limits one's ability to escape from an attacker. Have no illusions, taking a human life is a terrible thing and should not even be thought about unless one has a very solid reason to believe he has no other choice than to kill or be killed. That said, a firearm allows a level of personal security much greater than any non lethal weapon will give you. I generally will avoid bad areas of town whenever possible, and I am allways aware of my surroundings but you never know. Whenever I must pass through a nieghborhood we refer to as "Little Harlem" for example, I am especially prepared for the possibility of confrontation. It has happened many times to many people without provocation. There are predators in our society and I for one, refuse to be prey.

I find it somewhat oxymoron when I read posts about buying carbon bikes in order to shave ounces/pounds off the weight of a bike. Then I read posts about someone packing some sh*t. I have read a couple of posts that read that they carried .45's. That in itself is a pound of weight and more.

they carried .45's. That in itself is a pound of weight and more.

so what?

it's not supposed to be comfortable; it's supposed to be comforting.


I believe it would be impossible to shoot from a moving bike accurately and hit only my intended target.

I agree. But it doesn't mean I'm willing to be defenseless when I'm loading the bike onto the car, getting gas on the way to the trail, unloading, taking a breather during the ride, getting back to the parking area, reloading the car, on the drive back home, etc etc etc. Who said anything about only shooting from a moving bike?

the erstwhile Swiss Cycle Regiment and their bicycle:
http://www.benvanhelden.nl/Condorclub/Fiets/model93.html
http://www.benvanhelden.nl/Condorclub/Fiets/MO93/178.jpg


In our country firearms are not allowed for civilians without special permit (read - only determined criminals own them).

Once Pandora's Box is open, there's no closing it, for better or for worse. The only people who'll obey those laws will be law-abiding people who by definition won't be "determined criminals" in the first place. These laws simply disarm people who are the very same people targeted by these determined criminals, who now have unarmed potential victims.

You know, I always get sick of these arguments. They'll never be won, and they usually end in flames. But I just can't keep my mouth shut -- sorry, Joe.

So, sometimes when I get this frustrated, I try to end on a positive note that no-one can argue, so here it is:

I went on a ride today. It was a good one. I had plenty of time and a nice rest the night before and I'm just feeling pretty damn good in general because I have a new girlfriend and life is just sweet. So I'm out there and the sky is blue and I'm singing to myself to get through the hard climbs and I'm looking down and seeing some good speed because I'm sticking with quitting smoking because the aforementioned girlfriend hates it and like I said, life is just so freaking sweet. I get done with my twenty or so miles and it's back to the house, my new one I just bought a month and half ago, with a good deal more square footage than I need and a greenhouse and a skylight over my bed and later on I know I'm going horseback riding with Stephanie and I said it before and I'll say it again -- life is sweet. It's tough and it can be so, so hard but there's so many things to get done before the day is through but I can do it because I'm capable and I've made my own space around me and damnit,

life

is

sweet.

It's worth defending. By any means necessary.

That's it, I'm through with this thread. peace ...

--alex.

Originally posted by goodcatjack
...
I agree. But it doesn't mean I'm willing to be defenseless when I'm loading the bike onto the car, getting gas on the way to the trail,
...

life

is

sweet.

It's worth defending. By any means necessary.


Why can not you cycle to the trail? You will have less valuables with you, I mean there will be no expensive car.

The best defence is poverty. If one's stuff looks not-new, one will hardly be robbed.

That is why I try to buy the best equipment I can afford and use it for a long time. After a year or two things do not look new, but good stuff serves for many years, even if it is scratched or something.

This my private policy coincides with guidlines of Green Peace, which advises to use things as long as one can.

Life is definitely worth of defending. But what is the most real threat to life nowadays? Driving and shooting at training ranges with chemical ammo just contributes to the most realistic threat.

Why I'll be ditching my telescopic baton....

Speak of the devil. Over the weekend an incident occurred with two acquaintences. At the train station the two of them had a knife pulled on them. A scuffle ensued, but one of the two had a telescopic baton. It took the attacker down immediately, however, it was at this point that witnesses began to take notice of what was happening and what it looked like was two white kids beating the hell out of a black guy with a metal rod...plus combined with the adrenaline of the moment, one of the guys didn't leave it at just one smack and the assailant was taken away to the hospital. Then again, as it was stated to me, they 'pulled a Rodney King on his ass'. Now both of the acquaintences are sitting in jail. There is that line between what is considered self-defense and what is considered excessive force. Personally, I think that knife-wielding muggers who get the stuffing beat out of them have received an instant karma. However, I'm switching to pepper spray.

Originally posted by Bikes-N-Drums
However, I'm switching to pepper spray.

Dude! Get both! Blind the bastard, then hit him! Then run! Fast!

Originally posted by Bikes-N-Drums
Why I'll be ditching my telescopic baton....

Speak of the devil. Over the weekend an incident occurred with two acquaintences. At the train station the two of them had a knife pulled on them. A scuffle ensued, but one of the two had a telescopic baton. It took the attacker down immediately, however, it was at this point that witnesses began to take notice of what was happening and what it looked like was two white kids beating the hell out of a black guy with a metal rod...plus combined with the adrenaline of the moment, one of the guys didn't leave it at just one smack and the assailant was taken away to the hospital. Then again, as it was stated to me, they 'pulled a Rodney King on his ass'. Now both of the acquaintences are sitting in jail. There is that line between what is considered self-defense and what is considered excessive force. Personally, I think that knife-wielding muggers who get the stuffing beat out of them have received an instant karma. However, I'm switching to pepper spray.

Don't switch... just exercise more self-control... hit your attacker enough to stop the threat to your person. Pepper spray won't stop a seasoned preditor. :)

This thread is amazing.

:confused:

B-N-D...wtg. I think you will be better off. Make sure the spray has capsaicin in it. That's the good ingredient. The bottle should have +P on it also. Also, you want the "stream" spray, not the mist. That crap will blow back on you!